Ship of Fools: Crystal |-> Christ

Thread: Crystal |-> Christ Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

I've just seen the floorpan for the new Christ Cathedral, the Diocese of Orange's transformation of the Crystal Cathedral.

I'm very impressed, and I'd be excited to visit and pray there at some point if I'm able. I love the centrality given to the altar and the ambo: Christ will be made present in the midst of this worshiping assembly. The attention given to the entrances is impressive, both the doors and the font. The placement of the cathedra is another well thought through statement of our liturgical-sacramental theology.

It's only a floorplan, not a complete design, but I wonder where the confessionals and aumbry will be? Can the stuff of the healing sacraments be incorporated into the built environment as sensitively as other things have been?

What do you think of it?

[spelling corrected]

[ 29. September 2014, 16:43: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

The floorplan looks great. I'm less excited about this:

quote:
Shade structures in the shape of quatrefoils (similar to four-petaled flowers) will line the interior glass and tall walls will surround much of the worship area, creating an environment that is more inward oriented than the current cathedral, which was designed so that the outdoors felt near and light could pour into the sanctuary. (From the LA Times article today.)

They bought the largest glass building in the world, and they're going to put up walls within it to cut off the outside. Click here to see the interior that Philip Johnson designed; one of the points of the whole thing is that it's so transparent from the inside. Now click here (and read more details in the Orange County Register) to see an artist's rendering of the planned remodeling of the interior. The symbolism of the floorplan looks great. The symbolism of shutting out the outside world ... not so much. That's something that bugs me about going to my own church on a glorious Sunday morning -- I don't want to be enclosed in a space that feels windowless because the windows are all stained glass you can't see through.

I do really like this (from the OC Register):

quote:
The petals also will have outside lights, creating an effect the design committee calls the Box of Stars.

“One of the problems with the cathedral is that at night it just disappears,” said Rob Neal, chairman of the Architecture and Renovation Committee for Christ Cathedral. “These lights will illuminate the cathedral. ... You’ll be able to see it from a long, long way.”

It might turn out okay. But I think they stand a chance of ruining the interior of a masterpiece of modern architecture.

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

This is cool; I've been anxious to see what they would do with the space.

I generally don't much care for the whole central altar/altar in the round business, but based on the diagram and the renderings, this looks like one of the better examples of it I've seen. It reminds me of Our Lady of the Angels in LA, but will probably be nicer.

I would suppose the confessionals would be in the undercroft, adjacent to the chapel? That would seem the most logical place.

A little unsure about the placement of the tabernacle, though. Will it be visible from the sanctuary? If so, it would seem a bit strange to place it behind the cathedra. Also, there is no clear path for liturgical processions, at least as I see it.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It might turn out okay. But I think they stand a chance of ruining the interior of a masterpiece of modern architecture.

I shuddered when I saw the "quatrefoils" plan. Seems to me the transparency is one of the essential aspects of the architecture. Buy the Crystal Cathedral and then have a problem with its being made of glass? Like buying a gothic cathedral and having a problem with how hard all the stone looks. (Let's soften that up with some plaster and wallpaper, shall we?)

[ 25. September 2014, 20:57: Message edited by: Oblatus ]

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

I find the cathedra placing quite strange and it's something I've noticed in many Catholic Cathedrals. It's placed in such a way to re-enforce the sense of the authority of the Bishop and I'm not sure why exactly, but it makes me shift nervously; a little like seeing someone in a crowd try and assert their own self importance. I prefer the cathedra off to one side which to me gives a sense of what it is without it looking like a deliberate statement. in this scheme I'd be concerned that it will disrupt the flow of interaction from the ambo to the altar to the tabernacle; the emphasis being the whole presence of Christ right through the very centre of the building.

Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on :

In my opinion, the whole thing is ghastly. Top to bottom, inside and out. Maybe because I'm not RC, I'm not grasping the goodness of the plan and the details.

Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on :

I think that painting the organ pipes white is silly. In their natural state, they will, at worst, detract from the altar far, far less than the seating arrangement wherein each half of the congregation will be in full view of the other half.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

It's interesting that, to me, the comments reveal to poles that we should try to keep in tension:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The symbolism of the floorplan looks great. The symbolism of shutting out the outside world ... not so much.

quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
[the pipes] will, at worst, detract from the altar far, far less than the seating arrangement wherein each half of the congregation will be in full view of the other half.

The question is: what is the relationship of world and worship. Is it, as ldjjd seems to think, that the world distracts us from worship? Or is it, as RuthW seems to think, that the world invites us to worship?

When it comes to seeing the faces of fellow worshippers, I am definitely on the 'invite' side. As a pew dweller, I always liked arrangements that allowed me to see other worshippers' faces (and not just those of a few ministers). Being able to see the body at Christ at prayer is a definite aid to worship for me, another icon of Christ.

Being able to see the outside world is another matter. We definitely bring our outside concerns to prayer, where we are nourished that we might go back out into that world to shine forth with the brilliance we've been illumined with. During the Fall and Spring, we can keep our main doors open at church (they need to be closed for heating or air conditioning about half the year). I love, as presider, being able to occasionally look through at the world we're praying for. But, worship also needs to sometimes deliberately take our glances off this world, lest we become forgetful of the one to come. I think this is the motivation behind the quatrefoiles.

It's a difficult balancing act.

Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on :

I don't think that the tension has been resolved at all well. Part of the problem lies in the immense size of the congregation. This is not collegiate seating of a few worshippers. Nor is it a small church in the round.

It will be over a thousand people whose visual field will be full of the sight of another thousand directly opposite. The resultant movement, colors, and other visual stimuli cannot be anything but a very tempting distraction in my opinion.

In light of that, the bizarre attempt (whitewashing!!) to hide the organ (which arguably has symbolic value of its own) on the grounds of its distracting potential seems to me to be silly.

[ 26. September 2014, 20:54: Message edited by: ldjjd ]

Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I find the cathedra placing quite strange and it's something I've noticed in many Catholic Cathedrals. It's placed in such a way to re-enforce the sense of the authority of the Bishop and I'm not sure why exactly, but it makes me shift nervously; a little like seeing someone in a crowd try and assert their own self importance. I prefer the cathedra off to one side which to me gives a sense of what it is without it looking like a deliberate statement. in this scheme I'd be concerned that it will disrupt the flow of interaction from the ambo to the altar to the tabernacle; the emphasis being the whole presence of Christ right through the very centre of the building.

Where will the celebrant stand? Will he face half the congregation and "turn his back" on the other half? If not, I suppose he will face the cathedra which could justify fletcher christian's above concern. Ironically, too, that would mean celebrating in the direction of the toned-down formerly attention-hogging organ.

While they're on a painting spree, they should attack that grand piano with its distracting ebony shine.

For that matter, what will be the piano's function? Is there any hope that an acoustic miracle will render it audible? If it will have to be amplified somehow, why not just invest in a much less expensive digital keyboard and paint that white?

I realize that the present plans are not final. I hope that more thought will be given to these and other issues. As a basic matter, I'm glad that the Crystal Cathedral is in the hands of its present owners.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
Where will the celebrant stand? Will he face half the congregation and "turn his back" on the other half? If not, I suppose he will face the cathedra which could justify fletcher christian's above concern.

During the Eucharistic Prayer? I would assume he'd face the ambo. The picture that comes up if you click on the ambo seems to confirm that. That's how I've always seen this style of antiphonal seating used before.

Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on :

Thank you, Hart. I hadn't noticed the drawings.

If the celebrant will be facing the ambo, I would want the tabernacle and the choir to switch places. Not only would there be musical benefits, but it would no longer seem that the Mass is directed toward the choir.

Then, I'd wall out the former choir area and mount a huge crucifix on that wall, well above the ambo.

From the current drawings, it would appear that roughly half of the congregation would gaze upon what can be described as either an empty cross or the back of a crucifix, neither of which strikes me as ideal in a Catholic worship space. My suggestion eliminates that problem and directs the Mass toward our Lord's sacrifice.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
During the Eucharistic Prayer? I would assume he'd face the ambo.

So Cranmer's 12662 north side position isn't dead.

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
In my opinion, the whole thing is ghastly. Top to bottom, inside and out. Maybe because I'm not RC, I'm not grasping the goodness of the plan and the details.

It has nothing to do with being Catholic. The entire building is a monstrous eye-sore utterly unsuited to Catholic worship. It's purchase by the diocese of Orange is still matter of great contention among Catholics. The current plans represent nothing more than trying to put lipstick on a pig.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Why is "Crystal" here spelled with a "ch"? That's not the name of the building.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

As the Cathedral of Cordoba is a former mosque, and Strasbourg Cathedral is a repurposed Lutheran Church, I fail to see how any RC can object to repurposing the Crystal Cathedral.

It's Orange County, California. The real estate costs for vacant land would be enormous. This is the best value for money the Diocese could hope to get.

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

Strasbourg Cathedral used to be a Roman catholic Cathedral,but became Lutheran in the 16th Century,when the City Council opted for the Reformation.
But in 1672,when King Louis XIV,conquerred Strasbourg, the Cathedral returned to the Roman-Catholic Church.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

The building IS glass, and it would be good if they could keep as much of the transparency as they could. But I'm pretty sure there are environmental issues like heating and cooling to cope with too. Maybe that's driving some decisions?

As for the "in the round" stuff, I've been to service there under the old management, and it seems to me that once you get halfway to the back, you are basically out of range of the action up front, and might as well take a nap. It's just huge. I don't usually like worship in the round, but in this case it may be the best solution to what to do with this huge amount of space in this particular layout.

I'm just glad the thing is going to keep on being used for Christian worship. And hopefully with a bit more taste. When I visited, there was Astroturf, fountains, and bird cages in the aisles. [Eek!]

Not to mention seats with "donated by Frank Sinatra" or similar inscribed on them.

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm just glad the thing is going to keep on being used for Christian worship. And hopefully with a bit more taste.

<Hrrrrggggghhhh> That was the approximation of me biting my tongue extremely hard.

I mean, I love my Catholic brothers and sisters dearly. But, tastewise... I should probably confine my remarks to the taste of my tongue.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

But surely they'd rip out the Astroturf! Please, please, please?

(clutches head)

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

I dunno, Notre Dame just put it in their stadium this season, so I think all bets are off on that one.

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

Could someone PLEASE fix the spelling in the thread title?!

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It might turn out okay. But I think they stand a chance of ruining the interior of a masterpiece of modern architecture.

From the website linked in the OP:

quote:
Those who visited the former Crystal Cathedral will recall the amazing amount of light that streams into the building through each pane of glass. While beautiful, this glaring light has been the cause of much environmental damage to wood elements, the organ and piano. The harsh solar heat warms the room to an uncomfortable degree, and sound bounces off each hard pane of glass, which creates many acoustical issues. In order to create a more environmentally comfortable space, the interior of the cathedral will have an entirely new veil of perforated panels just inside the glass. Each quatrefoil panel is placed in the room according to specific algorithms that account for the path of the sun, and will diffuse the light while creating a beautiful overhead canopy of dappled sunshine.

It sounds as though they have taken into account the positive elements of the design and weighed them against the flaws with a view to finding the right balance.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Could someone PLEASE fix the spelling in the thread title?!

I'd assumed it was a deliberate pun on 'Christ'. I don't really want to go around correctly people's jokes even if (and I'm sure Hart won't mind me saying this...) it doesn't seem to be a particularly good one!

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Could someone PLEASE fix the spelling in the thread title?!
I'd assumed it was a deliberate pun on 'Christ'. I don't really want to go around correctly people's jokes even if (and I'm sure Hart won't mind me saying this...) it doesn't seem to be a particularly good one!

Actually, it was just a spelling mistake.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

Now corrected.

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

Cristal cathedral?

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Now corrected.

Thank you!!!

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