Ship of Fools: Friends making bad decisions

Thread: Friends making bad decisions Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by chive (# 208) on :

I have a very good friend. The sort of mate I can call on at 3 in the morning knowing she'll be there for me. I love her and her son to bits, really enjoy her company and we offer each other as much support as we can.

However, she has dreadful financial sense. She owes a hell of a lot of money (admittedly not all her fault - she agreed to take on her philandering ex husband's debts so he'd sign divorce papers) but she spends money on stupid unnecessary things. She also does it without thinking. A couple of months ago she phoned me in excitement telling me she was getting decking put down in the garden. The next day she phoned because she realised she had to pay for it and I had to lend her £500 to do this. She took a notion that she wanted a puppy and bought an expensive type instead of a mongrel.

I'm really worried because she's stopped opening her mail and everytime someone knocks at the door she makes jokes about bailiffs which concerns me. Even if it isn't money for stupid things, at the end of every month she always needs to borrow some money for things like food and petrol. She pays it back the next pay day and I trust her implicitly that I'll get it back but there's no point in borrowing money, paying it back then borrowing it again.

I've tried to make appointments with her with people like the Citizens Advice and other debt charities but she's got herself in such a situation of fear and panic that she's too scared to go.

It's not that I mind lending her money when I'm in a position to do so. Friends do things like that to friends but how can I help her to get things on a more sustainable level where this isn't an issue?

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

If you can spare the time go and stay for a few days and tackle the paperwork together. The longer the post is left the more frightening the prospect of opening it so having someone there who won't judge but will help will go a long way towards calming her and getting the situation moving.

Be prepared for her to opt out of the first stage because she'll be embarassed, so let her make tea, weed the garden, take the mutt for a walk, whatever.

But when you have the stuff in neat piles, then you bring her in to make decisions - first off maybe between box and lever-arch files, then onto the actual contents.

Warning: you'll have a pile of stuff that needs to be dealt with immediately - disconnection notices, debt collection agencies - but if you start here you'll frighten her off, so maybe produce a holding letter saying the problems are being sorted out and they'll hear within 14 days.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

I have a friend like that - she went for bankruptcy as the only feasible option.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I think that the friend thing to do is have a hard talk with her about this. I know that this will not be easy for either of you, and will strain your relationship, but it is the only real solution ot her problems.

It might be an idea to push the point by saying that you will lend her some money this month, but next month you will not. This is not because you think she is bad credit, but because she needs to sort her financial self out.

Sit and help her identify two things: 1) what are her current financial crises and 2) what her budget should be. If you can help her address her current financial crises and get them into a better place then the immediate panic should ease.

Pushing her to keep to a budget is crucial. It means that she has to understand how much money comes in, and how much she can spend on various things. Removing - at least on a temporary basis - any lines of credit is actually a real positive thing to do. The problem with credit is that it is seen as the "lender of last resort" that will always bail her out. She needs to learn that, if she buys decking, then she cannot eat or heat the house for the last half of the month (or whatever).

I am trying to teach my eldest some of this. We have always been available to lend him money, so he has not developed habits of planning. He needs to learn that buying some gadget means that he has to go by bus to work, as he cannot afford to get his car fixed. That will come as a shock to him, when it happens (as it will, in some form). But he will be better for it.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Chive--

I think there's some kind of 12-Step group for finances--if not in person, then maybe online?

[Votive]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

This is maybe going to sound horrible, but I'm suspecting her anxiety level is so high that she's not coping. Maybe if you can focus on persuading her to see a doctor? I suspect she'll need medication to face that lot of mail.

Posted by chive (# 208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
This is maybe going to sound horrible, but I'm suspecting her anxiety level is so high that she's not coping. Maybe if you can focus on persuading her to see a doctor? I suspect she'll need medication to face that lot of mail.

You're not sounding horrible. You're absolutely bang on. She's already being treated for anxiety.

I think a lot of the problem stems from her divorce. Her ex husband left her 3 days before her son was born for someone else. She now feels she has to do everything she can for her son to make up for what she feels is an imperfect family situation. And unfortunately everything includes spending money on things.

I have tried to tell her that he is a happy, intelligent, secure wee boy and is as happy playing with cheap playdoh or a car as he would be playing with something expensive but she's desperate that he shouldn't lose out because she's on her own.

I really wish that I could get her some therapy but unfortunately that's beyond my financial means so I'm trying to do what I can to make her day to day life less stressful and having done the stupid money mistakes myself in the past I know how incredibly anxiety provoking financial problems can be.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I'm glad to hear she has a son to live for. For some people (like me!) that makes it a lot easier (not that it's ever easy) to face the facts and cut out whatever might harm that person.

You could maybe take the tack of pointing out what a lovely child he is, and how happy he is when his mother is happy and unworried. And sure, it hurts like hell to face financial problems, but if you can get them faced and handled, the boy will benefit from having a much happier mother. If necessary you can suggest that taking steps to clean up her finances means that more money will be available for the child in the long run--for school, college, etc. Might be a motivator.

From what you're saying, I suspect she's going to need a sit-down-with-you-and-talk credit counselor, and possibly bankruptcy. Which is no fun at all, but better to get it over with while the kid is little. In the U.S. I believe bankruptcy stays on credit records for seven years--don't know about where you are, but if she attacks things now, the bub might not even have to know about it or suffer from it in the future.

Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :

My sister works for Citizens' Advice on debt management. Your friend sounds pretty 'normal' from her pov, and my sister and her colleagues would be able to help her a great deal. The CAB can do things like contact utilities companies and negotiate manageable repayments and also the occasional writing-off of debts. They can also advise re. bankruptcy, if indeed that is the best option. It might not be, so professional advice is really needed.

The main problem my sister has is clients who don't follow through. They come for one appointment; she asks them to find x & y paperwork for the next appointment; and they never come back. (Or they come back a year later in even more dire straits.) So if you can persuade your friend to make an appointment with the CAB, see if you can come with her, sit in the interview with her (with her permission, of course), take notes for her, and then be the clear-headed one who finds the required paperwork. And then take her to the next appointment.

Debt counselling is a specialist job, and would be daunting for someone untrained to take on. So unless you have knowledge in this area, better to be the support person. The hard bit, of course, will be getting her to admit she needs help in the first place. Good luck with it all.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

quote:
She now feels she has to do everything she can for her son to make up for what she feels is an imperfect family situation. And unfortunately everything includes spending money on things.

This sounds even more like my friend. She was carrying an impossible amount of debt from her marriage, and trying to give her children "everything" When I pointed out that my kids didn't have x, y or z, and managed perfectly well without, she'd say "but its all right for your kids, they have two parents."

Also, and I think she has a point, she'd say that when my kids looked scruffy and wore hand-me-downs, people just thought we were a slightly eccentric academic family. But when hers look scruffy and wear hand-me-downs, she thinks people assume that she is a feckless single mother who can't cope. She feels that having scruffy kids dressed cheaply is a luxury she can't have.

Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

That poor woman. Someone is going to give her a shock, and if it's not a friend it'll be a debt collector. How horrible. And her poor children. If they get everything they ask for now, how will they know what anything's worth or learn to wait for what they want?

I don't know what the answer is, but I suspect honesty will play an important part in sustaining trust within any friendship.

Cattyish, lighting a candle. [Votive]

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :

There's an organisation called Christians against Poverty which might be able to help - you don't have to be a Christian to have their help. They can help her budget in such a way that she can save a little money whilst still paying off her bills and having sufficiant to live on.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I would think carefully before being too generous with your own funds. It would be easy to slip into a position of enabling -- allowing her to evade what needs to be done to get out of this mess.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Being good friends and good supports to each other don't exclude being used. Which can be another facet of enabling.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

It is also worth knowing bankruptcy is not the only option, there is an interim stage - if your debt is not too high - where they freeze your debts for a period and if your financial situation doesn't change its written off. They are called Debt Relief Orders. Might be easier to contemplate going to the CAB if she knows this is possible - creditors are not allowed to harass you whilst its going on.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Chive--

I think there's some kind of 12-Step group for finances--if not in person, then maybe online?

Debtors Anonymous. (I've blogged about them here). Their techniques are really helpful, but like all 12 step programmes, DA will only work if Chive's friend acknowledges she has a problem and wants to do something about it. Same for all the other excellent ideas here.

Oh and [Votive]

for Chive's friend as getting out of debt and staying out is very hard.

Tubbs

[ 06. October 2014, 13:35: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

My experience is not with debt but with someone who has alcohol problems.

Firstly do not expect them to acknowledge their problem in its entirety all at once. My experience makes me think that these problems are like onions, you peal away one layer only to reveal another.

Secondly, keep yourself as free from debt to them as possible. Perhaps deliberately at times making gifts rather than lending. This allows you to support them for their own good more neutrally.

Thirdly, encourage any forward step however small. It is a day by day thing and each small financial decision is a battle to be won. You want your friend to feel good about the battles she is winning and not to be dragged down by those she looses.

Fourthly if they make a bad decision do not try and dissect it, encourage an attitude of "learn and move on". The task is for them to get back to making good decisions and to form a habit of so doing.

Fifthly encourage them to build support networks not just to rely on you. With my friend that included getting them to go to the doctors and to seek counselling. The broader and more diverse the network the less it is likely to all fail.

Sixthly find a motivation for making wise decisions. It can be very simple, such as wanting to take their child on holiday or it might be affording life insurance so if something happened to themselves the child would be provided for. It has to be deep though because it has to be able to fight the negative talk.

Jengie

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

Offer to open her mail for her and tell her what it says and how to deal with it. I have difficulty with opening mail too - I get overwhelmed by it. I am good with managing finances, but there was a time when I was getting bills I didn't know about, like my water bill, because I didn't open mail. My dad came to visit and opened it all for me and explained it's very important to open it, and he told me what to do about it, and so I set up direct debits to pay my bills. I know my situation is different, but I found it very helpful and a relief when my dad opened my mail and explained which mail was important and which wasn't and what to do about it. I found it too overwhelming and scary to open by myself, especially in times when my life felt out of control. I imagine financial difficulties can lead to this same out of control feeling.

Regarding budgeting, there are some really good free budgeting apps out there. I use Goodbudget. It helps me track my finances, and live on a tiny income without overspending. Your friend could set up a monthly budget for paying debts, a monthly budget for paying bills, a monthly budget for food, etc. It's really good - it's visual and shows you how much of each budget you have left for the month.

Personally, I wouldn't lend her money, because then she's not learning from the consequences of her actions - it's okay for her to overspend because you'll help her out. To get into the mindset of managing money responsibly, you have to realise that if you spend all your money, you have none left and will have to wait till your next pay day.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

I'm concerned about the borrowing money and paying it back promptly pattern - where is she getting the money to pay it back?

One friend went through her entire saving-for-retirement account that way, and had nothing when hard times came (hard times come, they just do). Some people take out a loan against the house to spend on impulsive needs like a deck, new toys, and end up losing the house because they can't pay the loan.

Best possible upbringing for the kid is creative inexpensive ways to enjoy living within your own income. But spending money is "therapy" for some people, until the bills come and increase anxiety, requiring more shopping therapy.

A 12-step program would be great. Or a budget counselor who really does help - some of the "credit counselors" just charge a big fee to consolidate your bills but they don't actually do you any good.

Any budget counseling needs to address the anxiety and find other ways to deal with it, or the shopping as therapy will continue. A friend had a well planned budget, the next day blew the budget by buying new clothes for all her grandkids - her emotional drive to spend overpowered her intellectual awareness she should budget.

Posted by chive (# 208) on :

Thank you all for your genuinely helpful advice. Tomorrow I'm going round to her place with a big pot of homemade soup and some nice bread and after that we are having The Talk. The final straw was when she announced she was going to enrol her wee one in the most expensive nursery in town because it must be the best. She admitted she can't afford it.

She knows The Talk is coming because I've warned her but sweet potato and chickpea soup is a good bribe. [Biased]

I've made an appointment for her at the CAB next week and organised another mate to babysit the munchkin during the appointment. I've even made up a spreadsheet to record all her debts etc and I'll take round a box of tissues too.

I know this is going to be hard but sometimes it's a cruel to be kind situation. She needs the help and I will be as gentle and loving as I can be as well as being necessarily firm.

Prayers would be gratefully received.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chive:
Prayers would be gratefully received.

Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on :

Prayers ascending.

And a comment that if I were making bad decisions in a major way, I would really like a friend like yourself, chive, looking out for me.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

Brilliant, chive, that sounds just the right approach. Hope it all goes well for both of you.

Posted by Emma Louise (# 3571) on :

Oh Chive what a lovely friend you are. Good luck x

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

What everyone else is saying, Chive - you are obviously the Friend From Heaven. Good luck for next week - prayers ascending. [Votive]

If there's any soup left over ... [Big Grin]

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

And I applaud the idea of food. Better than money.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chive:
I've made an appointment for her at the CAB next week and organised another mate to babysit the munchkin during the appointment. I've even made up a spreadsheet to record all her debts etc and I'll take round a box of tissues too.

I know this is going to be hard but sometimes it's a cruel to be kind situation. She needs the help and I will be as gentle and loving as I can be as well as being necessarily firm.

You are a good friend, Chive. Your friend is fortunate indeed. Prayers ascending that it goes well.

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

Yes, I'm just dropping by to say what a very good friend you are.

M.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Chive - to echo everyone else - you are brilliant. Good luck

Posted by chive (# 208) on :

Trust me, I'm not that good a friend. There is a substantial degree of self interest in all of this. Due to ill health my income is dropping substantially over the next few months (to the extent that I have been given a grant from a charity to help me out) and I'm in no position to help her out. So I have no options!

The one really good piece of news is that I have found a source of funding for therapy for her which I'm going to use to sweeten the bitter pill somewhat.

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

You're still a star in my book!

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

Lots of good advice here, and sounds like you are approaching it very well indeed. Hugs and love and prayers.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

OK, so you are not a dis-interested friend, that doesn't mean you are not still a good friend, for trying to help her sort this out, rather than just saying you cannot help any more.

Look after yourself too, Chive.

Posted by guinness girl (# 4391) on :

Chive, I'm aware that you may not be able to share too much detail, but I was thinking of this thread again today and was wondering what happened? Did the talk go OK?

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