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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Red dot, blue line
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
One in five pregnancies ends in a miscarriage or stillbirth. This is a thread for talking about children who don't get to be born.
I had always assumed that getting pregnant would be easy. My family have their fair share of unplanned pregnancies (along with a few planned ones), I don't know of anyone with fertility problems in my family.
Long story short, I got pregnant, it stopped growing, there was no heartbeat, the tiny unnamed blob of potential was gone.
This was almost a year ago. I still haven't told many people. At first, it hurt too much to talk about it, and now it seems there's not much point bringing the subject into conversations after so much time.
How to talk about it? How to talk to people who've got children without raging jealousy? How to be patient month after month?
I can only start this thread here because hardly anyone knows who I am in real life.
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I am so sorry you have been through this.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
At least we can be pleased that you feel able to confide in this "vast cloud of witnesses".
My older daughter had the same experience, but was, later, able to reproduce (twice so far) which has helped her deal with the earlier episode. She is fortunate to have some trustworthy individuals in her acquaintance, who could provide helpful counsel and support. Some are in her, or another, church, others are simply friends (who may happen to be churchy!)
Our families are thin on the ground, and we have no idea of their relative fertility, so that was not an expectation issue.
Personal presence does count: is there no-one in your acquaintance with whom you could be, guardedly, open? A reliable friend would not notice the passage of time, if the issue matters.
Not that we don't want to be there for you, but communicating only in writing isn't always the easiest or best way.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
I have one good friend who I was able to tell about it.
We told our parents, and my sister, and a couple of other people.
We have each other. (It's just as hard for Mr Marzipan to deal with)
I was reluctant to tell many people at church, as there are certain people there who might be inclined to tell the whole world about it, (in the nicest possible way, so that they can pray for us etc) and I didn't want everybody knowing my business.
Writing for me is easier than talking, as I can think for longer about what I want to say.
[ 04. December 2014, 21:10: Message edited by: marzipan ]
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I have posted a lot on the Ship over the years about our losses; I find the Ship much easier than RL in this respect.
I had a couple of "failure to implant" losses, which would have been indistinguishable from a late period were it not for that faint blue line. We then had two children, the first perfectly healthy, the second with health problems that were time-consuming rather than serious. The next pregnancy ended at 12 weeks. We then had our stillborn son. Then a miscarriage at 11 weeks. A few years later, an unplanned pregnancy ended at 7 weeks.
Physically, the 12 week and 11 week losses were the worst; I spent 13 hours in hospital giving birth to my son, 10 hours with my daughter, and was up and about almost immediately, but the 12 week miscarriage involved a longer stay than both live births put together: haemorrhage, oxygen, a drip, an emergency ERPOC at 1am, and a blood transfusion. It wasn't a given that I would survive.
Not telling people wasn't an option after the 12 week loss; I was ill for some time after.
We told far fewer people after the 11 week loss. And virtually no-one knows I had another miscarriage in my 40s.
The emotion each time has been different. I've struggled with episodic depression, especially around the anniversary of our son's stillbirth. I've had intermittent counselling which has helped a lot.
My hormones also went haywire, which didn't help. Although, because blood tests could provide figures, I knew that the hormonal thing was a real, physical, measurable problem.
I am overwhelmingly grateful for the two children (now young adults) that we have. I think if you do speak about it, you will find many, many people who have experienced the same thing.
Most Christian literature on the subject is deeply, deeply crap and follows a predictable storyline - happy shiny Christian couple lose baby. They become an unhappy, but still shiny couple who pray piously. And lo! They end up as a happy shiny Christian couple with healthy twins. Obviously, I'm happy for couples for whom it does work out that way, but I hate the fact that that seems to be the approved Christian narrative.
If I knew you in RL, I'd give you a big hug, marzipan. As I don't, here's a virtual one (((marzipan))) I will hold you in my prayers.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
A dear friend of mine has had difficulty becoming pregnant. After ten years of IVF and so on she had a delightful little boy. This year she startled herself, and everybody, by becoming pregnant au naturel. They attributed it to a miracle of God. But only in November they went in for the first ultrasound (the due date is in Feb.) and learned that the fetus is drastically deformed, 'incompatible with life'. She plans to carry her (it is a girl) to term anyway; the funeral will probably be within the week.
It is difficult to know what to say to her.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The first and most important thing to do is actually to call / visit /be there. Even if you don't know what to say. It helps.
As for what to say: "It sucks." "This really sucks." "I'm so sorry this happened." "What a lovely little girl, it sucks that you have her for such a short time." "What can I do for you?" "Can I bring you a casserole?" "Mind if I clean the bathroom?" "May I come to the funeral?" (and bring flowers) "What are you naming her?" "I'm praying for you and (rest of family, including baby)." "How is (husband/sig other) doing?" "Is there anybody you'd like me to call?" "Can I pick anything up at the grocery store / pharmacy for you?" "This totally sucks."
Even better, be there a month, three months, a year later. And mark the anniversary date on your calendar and schedule coffee with her. And ask her how she's doing, as she may feel it's a forbidden topic.
Full disclosure: We were infertile over a decade, lost one of twins (really two of triplets, but one didn't implant, and one was ectopic), and then lost another in 2011.
It still sucks.
[ 05. December 2014, 03:58: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
some may find this helpful.
Everett Joseph Smith was a real boy
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That was horrible and lovely at the same time. Prayers for all who are going through this, and those who care for them.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Brenda, our situation was similar with our stillborn son; the 20 week scan showed problems and for the last six weeks of the pregnancy we knew that he would either be stillborn or have a life expectancy of less than a year.
He was stillborn on a Saturday and buried six days later.
What to say? As LC says, acknowledgement that this sucks. An offer to baby-sit her older son, to give the couple some space would be good. A gift for the son, something like a sticker book to keep him occupied or ten minutes would be good.
If they have chosen a name for their daughter, use it.
We have photos of our son, a lock of his hair, his hand and foot prints. Virtually no-one has seen these. It would have been nice to have had people willing to look. (We have one photo framed, where we're holding him completely swathed in a blanket, so that no part of him can be seen; that photo was specifically taken as one that could be displayed.) I wish there were more photos of me pregnant with him, we just didn't think to take any.
quote:
Even better, be there a month, three months, a year later. And mark the anniversary date on your calendar and schedule coffee with her. And ask her how she's doing, as she may feel it's a forbidden topic.
This.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Ferijen
Shipmate
# 4719
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Posted
Hey marzipan
*waves*
I don't think you're local any more, otherwise there would be a Real Live Hug.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posts: 3259 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Not up to telling my story today, but... for you and Mr Marzipan.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
It will get easier, one way or another. The odds are good that you will have a child.
One thing I would like to say. Don't let anyone - no matter how qualified, well-intentioned or loving they are - tell you what you should be feeling, or what you should do to remember the one you've lost. I'm thinking, in particular, of the commemoration services that seem to be held a lot these days. They help some people, but they would be a very personal and specific form of hell for me. There are other similar things. Do what helps you, nothing else. And if anyone argues with you over what will help, ignore them.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
... but if you WANT a commemoration service, and trust your pastor to handle it sensitively, by all means do it!!! Even if it's eighteen years later. The baby is a real baby. Not simply a "miscarriage" or a "stillbirth." It's a baby. You have real grief. You deserve a funeral if you want one.
We've done full-fledged funerals for babies of 21 weeks gestation, much to the surprise of the funeral home, flower people etc. (some of whom donated their services when they learned how young the baby was). I think it did a lot to comfort the parents and the rest of us. This child is real. Having photos, footprints, paperwork, a funeral, can honor that.
And our church holds the photos, footprints, etc. of such babies in the safe, just in case parents who can't face it now ever change their minds and want the mementos.
[ 05. December 2014, 12:52: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
My incredibly brave friend is having (at the age of 40) to think about funerals, cremation vs. burial, etc. The idea of having a grave that they can visit with the older son is attractive, but at their age it is hard to believe that they will want to be interred there 50 years from now.
I did knit a pink baby blanket, which I hesitated to offer but which she instantly accepted, unfolded, and draped over her belly.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
What to say?
Ask the questions you would if they were looking forward to a full-term, perfect child: Have they decided on a name? What about Godparents?
It won't help but its less likely to set their teeth on edge.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
When we were at Belfast Cathedral, one of the annual services that was held there was one commemorating infant/childhood deaths, stillbirths and miscarriages and I remember D. always being surprised at how many people were there whom he recognised, but didn't know had lost a child.
It set me thinking about how complex the process of reproduction is, and how many chances there are along the way for it to go awry.
Those who make it to healthy birth are truly "little miracles".
As someone who's childless by choice I feel like a bit of a fraud posting on here, but be assured you are all in my prayers.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
This may be a pond difference, but a lot of cemeteries here have a section for stillbirths. Our son is buried in one. There is a uniform design of small gravestones, three lines of text - name, date, short phrase.
When I put flowers on his grave, I buy two identical bunches, just inexpensive supermarket flowers. One goes on the grave, the other in a vase at home.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
... but if you WANT a commemoration service, and trust your pastor to handle it sensitively, by all means do it!!! Even if it's eighteen years later. The baby is a real baby. Not simply a "miscarriage" or a "stillbirth." It's a baby. You have real grief. You deserve a funeral if you want one.
As I said, they are helpful for some people, but YOU will know what is helpful for you. Don't let anyone else tell you what you ought to do or feel.
I was told explicitly and directly by the organisers of a national series of commemoration services that everyone needed to attend if they had ever lost a child or had a miscarriage. The implication was clearly that if you did not do so you were not grieving adequately. Way to offer something helpful to some, and do serious damage to others at the same time.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
We lost our second before 20 weeks.The consultant who visited me on the ward that morning uttered the immortal words "never mind, you're young, there's life in the old dog yet".....
Our eldest daughter had her first, a stillborn son all the way across the world from us. Our son-in-law is a priest and he baptised Joshua after he was born which gave them both immense comfort.My husband flew out to be with them for the funeral.Most people were wonderful, some people said stupid things.
He was buried in a special part of the local cemetery and my daughter visits his grave whenever she is back in that town. She has had some remarkable conversations with other people she has met there- a strange sense of solidarity in sufferring.
for all of us who have had to go through this
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
I'm so sorry you've had this experience, marzipan - I hope you find this thread a comfort, somehow.
I'm not sure exactly where you are, but in the UK the Miscarriage Association website has a discussion forum (as well as useful info etc), and there is also a Miscarriage Association of Ireland which holds support meetings.
We now do have a beautiful baby, but I had two miscarriages before becoming pregnant with her. At the time, other than telling close family and a couple of trusted friends, and also my work colleagues who needed to know (in the first case) why my boss wanted them to do all my new birth visits for a while (yay, a miscarriage while a health visitor - *great*), we chose not to talk about it, announce it online etc - I just couldn't face it. Even amongst the few people I did tell, I was amazed at how many people said that it had happened to them too. Of course a few well-meaning people engaged mouth before brain and said stupid things, but even then I always knew it wasn't meant nastily, they were just trying to be kind. That's not to say that I don't sometimes have my moments of thinking "I can't believe they said *that*, what a bloody stupid thing to say!", but it's not something I dwell on.
I personally never felt the need for a memorial service of any kind (the thought actually made me think yuck, no thanks, which is a reaction I will examine more closely some other time - I'm not yet ready to), or particularly needed to talk about it. It's only really been since having my baby that I've felt more of a need to talk about it, but really only to mention that it happened (if that doesn't sound too heartless). I mention it in contexts where I think that someone may find it helpful to know someone else has had the experience, and can talk about it if they would like. But I do have to remind myself that my experience is unique - not everyone will react as I did, and not everyone will feel the way I do about it.
I do agree that the best things people can say are just "this sucks - I'm so sorry - what can I do" etc, and I love the thought of asking the child's name and still offering a gift. That is so thoughtful.
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
Thanks for everyone posting. I'll be away this weekend so I realise I've done a bit of a 'post and run' on this thread.
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Aberdeen has regular memorial services but I haven't been to any of them; it would feel like synchronised grieving to me, as though someone else was orchestrating my feelings.
Aberdeen Maternity has a chapel with Books of Remembrance in them. We have a page in the Book of Remembrance for the 12 week miscarriage, but didn't for the others. We were taken by surprise when the midwife asked for a name, but we chose a name I like very much, but wouldn't have used for a living child because it's a unisex name (a family surname which can also be a first name). We have a grave for our stillborn son, so didn't feel the need for a page in the memorial book, but we chose to have no memorial page for the 11 week miscarriage.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
... but if you WANT a commemoration service, and trust your pastor to handle it sensitively, by all means do it!!! Even if it's eighteen years later. The baby is a real baby. Not simply a "miscarriage" or a "stillbirth." It's a baby. You have real grief. You deserve a funeral if you want one.
As I said, they are helpful for some people, but YOU will know what is helpful for you. Don't let anyone else tell you what you ought to do or feel.
I was told explicitly and directly by the organisers of a national series of commemoration services that everyone needed to attend if they had ever lost a child or had a miscarriage. The implication was clearly that if you did not do so you were not grieving adequately. Way to offer something helpful to some, and do serious damage to others at the same time.
Here we have just the opposite problem, where most people don't even know such services are possible, and if they think of them are afraid/ashamed to ask their pastor to do one.
![[Frown]](frown.gif) There's a real culture of hiding it. I mentioned my miscarriage to an older woman I thought loved us dearly, and got told basically to keep a stiff upper lip and don't talk about it, it happens to everybody. sort of "man up."
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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BessLane
Shipmate
# 15176
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Posted
Back in April, at the age of 45, I discovered I was pregnant. As I was told I was sterile at the age of 22, and up to that point had no reason to disbelieve this, it came as a major shock. This wasn't anything I'd planned, or even wanted for that matter and, freaking out, I turned to the Ship for comfort, support etc. About 3 or 4 days after the doc confirmed I was pregnant, the cramping started and I lost the child. I hadn't had time to get my head around being pregnant and suddenly I wasn't anymore. Again, the Ship helped me more than I have words to say. I hope you find the same comfort here that I did.
As to the actual miscarriage, I had horrible mixed emotions. ON the one hand, my husband and I never wanted children. On the other hand, here was this thing that millions of women the world over can do without anythought, and my body was defective, first in not being able to conceive, then in not being able to carry a child longer than about 7 or so weeks. As LC says, "It SUCKS!" I'll just say what I was told by wiser, gentler Shipmates than I - be good to yourself and Mr. Marzipan. Grieve how and how long you need to and don't let any dumbass - however well meaning they may be - tell you what you should or should not feel.
weepy long distance hugs for you both...
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It's all on me and I won't tell it.
formerly BessHiggs
Posts: 1388 | From: Yorkville, TN | Registered: Sep 2009
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Ags
Knocked up
# 204
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Posted
We lost twins in between our two girls (now grown.) It was only then that I discovered how common miscarriage is. Like Jack I talk about it if I think it will help someone else.
Our older daughter has had three miscarriages and is now 24 weeks pregnant. It's still not plain sailing - she has hyperemesis gravidarum amongst other problems, but she is still pregnant and we are just now allowing ourselves to feel excited.
marzipan, be gentle with yourself
And (((Jack)))
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I think that we are most ourselves at our best, because that is what God intended us to be. The us we really like, the us that others love to be with. Moth
Posts: 2707 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
It's hard enough for my wife and I, wanting children but having no luck conceiving. I struggle to imagine how much hard it must be to have begun to hope and plan for that life and to have that life cut short.
My wife and I struggle with the worry that we will only have children if we can conceive ourselves - my wife's weight means she can't get fertility treatment and her medical history means we would never be considered as adoptive parents.
It's hard not to be jealous when you see much younger couples marrying, conceiving and giving birth while nothing happens for us.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
The Church of Ireland Book of Common Prayer has a very nice prayer for babies lost to miscarriage or stillbirth. quote:
God of compassion, you make nothing in vain and love all you have created; we commend to you .... and ....’s child, ...., for whom they poured out such great love, for whom they cherished so many hopes and dreams.
We had longed to welcome him/her amongst us; grant us the assurance that he/she is now encircled in your arms of love, and shares the resurrection life of your Son, Jesus Christ.
Amen
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
There is also Stillbirth and Neonatal Death Society for those in the UK.
Children Hospitals may organise services to remember children who have died. These are usually open to parents who have suffered loss of a child through miscarriage, stillbirth or neonatal death. I can think of pros and cons to these but they do exist. I used to know more but am now out of the circuit. Equally I suspect children's hospitals may have counseling services available for those who have lost a child and you may be able to access these but you may need to ask (O&G is often quite separate from Paediatrics in hospital terms).
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Ags
Knocked up
# 204
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
The Church of Ireland Book of Common Prayer has a very nice prayer for babies lost to miscarriage or stillbirth. quote:
God of compassion, you make nothing in vain and love all you have created; we commend to you .... and ....’s child, ...., for whom they poured out such great love, for whom they cherished so many hopes and dreams.
We had longed to welcome him/her amongst us; grant us the assurance that he/she is now encircled in your arms of love, and shares the resurrection life of your Son, Jesus Christ.
Amen
Moo
Moo, this is lovely.
Thank you.
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I think that we are most ourselves at our best, because that is what God intended us to be. The us we really like, the us that others love to be with. Moth
Posts: 2707 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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