Ship of Fools: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: What the hell are you on about?

Thread: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: What the hell are you on about? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Apart from the fact that your posts are nearly always incomprehensible and that you're a Marcionite, what the fuck is this "Christendom" that you blame all the world's evils on? Isn't it time to change the tune or at the very least post in a way we can understand what the bloody hell you're on about?

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

While sharing your bafflement with plenty of Martin's posts, I think I can help with what he means by 'Christendom'. It's basically the nexus of church power and state power which began (pretty much) under the reign of the Roman emperor Constantine. Churches being involved in exercising political / military power, secular rulers getting involved in church matters; that sort of thing.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

I have to confess that I don't understand what he says pretty much 100% of the time. But there is a solution - just scroll past his posts; you don't have to make the effort to read them. That's how I deal with it anyway; YMMV.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

The title of this thread would work perfectly well without the word "about"

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Ah, bless. The Ship's most obscure and oblique poster is encountered by the most literal-minded and unimaginative Shipmate.

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

Is there a specific thread or post that the OP is referring to?

I second SCK, 'Christendom' is a pretty well-known word. Am surprised a shipmate starts a thread in hell with a confession of ignorance.

Posted by luvanddaisies (# 5761) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
...what the fuck is this "Christendom"...

This.

[ 06. August 2014, 09:33: Message edited by: luvanddaisies ]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Is there a specific thread or post that the OP is referring to?

I second SCK, 'Christendom' is a pretty well-known word. Am surprised a shipmate starts a thread in hell with a confession of ignorance.

We're talking about Martin PC's obscure posts (for which he's been called before). His 'Christendom' could easily differ from that of everybody else. Whether it does or not only he can answer. Whether we can understand his answer, who can tell?

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

I'm not convinced he uses "Christendom" in the same sense most of us here would.

Posted by Jolly Jape (# 3296) on :

I'm not so sure that Martin uses any words in the same sense that most of us do [Big Grin]

Seriously, though, his posts can be hard work, with obscure cultural references springing up without warning, but I can usually work out what he is trying to say. I suspect, however, that the most comfortable way to interpret Martin is not by analysis. Rather, his posts are best read as if they were poetry. We might not know precisely what he thinks on a particular issue, but we certainly know what he feels about it.

[ 06. August 2014, 09:59: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

I agree with JJ about the poetry style. Or perhaps it's cryptic crossword clue style. Solving the puzzle is an enjoyable task, though no correct solution is provided and follow-up posts may be like clues which cross-reference other clues. Sometimes I just give up, but other times it has caused interesting thoughts so I don't care if I have understood or not.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Can I just protest, on behalf of Verseworkers United, against poetry being viewed as woolly or inexact?

Martin's posts are comprehensible enough in an eye-rolling-heavenwards, wind-whipping-druidic-robes kind of way. It's just that they usually appear to have sod all to do with the subject in hand.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
orfeo: Ah, bless. The Ship's most obscure and oblique poster is encountered by the most literal-minded and unimaginative Shipmate.

Do they now mutually annihilate eachother?

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Can I just protest, on behalf of Verseworkers United, against poetry being viewed as woolly or inexact?

Martin's posts are comprehensible enough in an eye-rolling-heavenwards, wind-whipping-druidic-robes kind of way. It's just that they usually appear to have sod all to do with the subject in hand.

An early sighting of Martin searching for a wifi connection to the Ship...

[Axe murder]

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ah, bless. The Ship's most obscure and oblique poster is encountered by the most literal-minded and unimaginative Shipmate.

I take offence at "unimaginative".

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ah, bless. The Ship's most obscure and oblique poster is encountered by the most literal-minded and unimaginative Shipmate.
I take offence at "unimaginative".

Oh good. You understood THAT alright.

Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Can I just protest, on behalf of Verseworkers United, against poetry being viewed as woolly or inexact?

Martin's posts are comprehensible enough in an eye-rolling-heavenwards, wind-whipping-druidic-robes kind of way. It's just that they usually appear to have sod all to do with the subject in hand.
An early sighting of Martin searching for a wifi connection to the Ship...

Calling Edward Plantagenet to Hell, no doubt.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

I have less trouble understanding Martin PCNot's posts than I do Ad Orientam's. Martin is much less cryptic than he used to be too. He's moved from Black Mountain School, and a sort of irritating Prynnianism to being the Ship's very own Jack Clemo. And he's a damned sight less of a Marcionite than Mr Supercessionist Ad O is.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
I have less trouble understanding Martin PCNot's posts than I do Ad Orientam's. Martin is much less cryptic than he used to be too. He's moved from Black Mountain School, and a sort of irritating Prynnianism to being the Ship's very own Jack Clemo. And he's a damned sight less of a Marcionite than Mr Supercessionist Ad O is.

LOL! Better tell that to the Fathers then.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Actually, I should take back the unimaginative part. It takes real imagination to think that you have the Fathers on speed-dial. Or do they use e-mail now?

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Um, that would delusion, orfeo. A stick thrust so deeply generally impairs imagination.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

Why protest the obscure utterances of one among the many when outrageous clarity abounds upon our vessel of vanity? Are erratic euphemisms more erroneous than articulated lorries of ennui? Should Martin Neither Particularly Correct Nor Wholly Wrong be shunned when all about are Headless Chickens of Chaos masquerading as Lords of Logic? I think not neither do I post!

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Some people think they were Nefertiti in a past life. Ad Orientum thinks he was St John Chrysostom.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Heaven forbid I should think I'm anyone. Naturally I believe that the authority of the Fathers carries much weight though. And not many here appeal to their authority so I think it's good someone does, if only to remind others that they exist.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Can I just protest, on behalf of Verseworkers United, against poetry being viewed as woolly or inexact?

Martin's posts are comprehensible enough in an eye-rolling-heavenwards, wind-whipping-druidic-robes kind of way. It's just that they usually appear to have sod all to do with the subject in hand.
An early sighting of Martin searching for a wifi connection to the Ship...

When Firenze said "druidic" I thought more of Getafix. And pass the magic potion.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Heaven forbid I should think I'm anyone. Naturally I believe that the authority of the Fathers carries much weight though. And not many here appeal to their authority so I think it's good someone does, if only to remind others that they exist.

Oh, there's nothing wrong with the Fathers having authority. There's a LOT wrong with the fact that the Fathers always seem to agree with you no matter what. It's not so much that the Fathers' authority carries weight, but that your authority allegedly has the weight of the Fathers behind it.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Heaven forbid I should think I'm anyone. Naturally I believe that the authority of the Fathers carries much weight though. And not many here appeal to their authority so I think it's good someone does, if only to remind others that they exist.
Oh, there's nothing wrong with the Fathers having authority. There's a LOT wrong with the fact that the Fathers always seem to agree with you no matter what. It's not so much that the Fathers' authority carries weight, but that your authority allegedly has the weight of the Fathers behind it.

I've never claimed to have any authority. I do try to think with the Church though, which is why I give tradition so much weight and why I look down on innovation.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Heaven forbid I should think I'm anyone. Naturally I believe that the authority of the Fathers carries much weight though. And not many here appeal to their authority so I think it's good someone does, if only to remind others that they exist.
Oh, there's nothing wrong with the Fathers having authority. There's a LOT wrong with the fact that the Fathers always seem to agree with you no matter what. It's not so much that the Fathers' authority carries weight, but that your authority allegedly has the weight of the Fathers behind it.
I've never claimed to have any authority. I do try to think with the Church though, which is why I give tradition so much weight and why I look down on innovation.

You don't try to think. Period. I've seen you utterly bamboozled when someone tries to take you outside of your bubble even a little bit. Hence my comment about your lack of imagination. It's not just that you think other people's arguments are wrong, it's that you can't even comprehend them. Often you react as if someone talked to you in Martian.

And these Fathers you're always claiming agree with you... you know, I'm genuinely trying to remember a single time when you've actually quoted something to back this claim up, and I can't. I genuinely can't. All I can ever remember is a bald, argument-ending assertion. I'd say well over half of the posts I've ever seen from you are bald, argument-ending assertions.

You have all of Ingo's dogmatism with none of his wit or intelligence. It's not pretty.

[ 06. August 2014, 14:38: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Well, I've never claimed to be an apologist either and prooftexting the Fathers really is just as bad as prooftexting the Scriptures. Thinking with the Church isn't about picking the right document or pulling out the right quote and saying "yes" to it. But no, I'm not into writing essay length posts. I have a life as well as being a bit lazy. As for my intelligence, you're free to come to any conclusion you like, of course.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

I've come to the conclusion that you're the Ship's orthodox parrot.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Anyway, getting to the actual subject of thread, perhaps Martin could condescend to tell us why he blames "Christendom" for everything and what he actually means by the term.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Headless Chickens of Chaos--I like it. What a great name for a band!

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Thinking with the Church isn't about picking the right document or pulling out the right quote and saying "yes" to it.

So what is 'thinking with the Church' then? As someone who's been on the receiving end of some of what orfeo calls your bald argument-ending assertions, I'd be interested to see more actual quotations from the Church Fathers, or at least some summaries of their views on various issues.

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

It is really less confusing than you might think at first. We all know what Christendom was; we talk about it mostly in the past tense. Martin PC & Not-Something or Other thinks that Christendom is something that still exists, and so he talks about it in the present tense. He is obviously incorrect about that, but once you understand that part of how he thinks, it is easier to understand.

Frankly, I came to understand Martin a bit better once I came to the conclusion that his entire persona is deliberately obfuscatory; after all, Jesus was terribly misunderstood in his time, and if it was good enough for our Lord, it must be good enough for Ship's resident faux-losopher. The only time he goes out of his way to make sense is when he's angry.

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Why protest the obscure utterances of one among the many when outrageous clarity abounds upon our vessel of vanity? Are erratic euphemisms more erroneous than articulated lorries of ennui? Should Martin Neither Particularly Correct Nor Wholly Wrong be shunned when all about are Headless Chickens of Chaos masquerading as Lords of Logic? I think not neither do I post!

Originally posted by orfeo:
"Often you react as if someone talked to you in Martian."

I read that as 'Martin' [Big Grin]

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

Well thanks, Thyme, that is what I was trying to do. I thought it might be fun if we all tried to talk Martin on this thread. Of course having fun might get us sent to that "8" place, which I fear much more than Hell.

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

Didn't there used to be a pretty much constant thread open about Our Martin? I'm just amazed it's taken AD this long to notice his style.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Didn't there used to be a pretty much constant thread open about Our Martin? I'm just amazed it's taken AD this long to notice his style.

I've noticed it before, of course. I just got fed up.

[ 06. August 2014, 19:15: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

Martin's sound.

Liturgy-wanker: You don't have to read his posts.

Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Can I just protest, on behalf of Verseworkers United, against poetry being viewed as woolly or inexact?

Martin's posts are comprehensible enough in an eye-rolling-heavenwards, wind-whipping-druidic-robes kind of way. It's just that they usually appear to have sod all to do with the subject in hand.

What a great visual. I imagine his posts are fueled by a bit of locust and honey.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Mr Supercessionist Ad O

I'm sorry, isn't Ad Orientem female? [Confused]

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Headless Chickens of Chaos--I like it. What a great name for a band!

Yep - brilliant. Got to work that into the proposed 8th Day Music Board somehow.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

But isn't this orthogonal to the christ-scrotal nature of the broken homeless ?

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

Parsimony. That's all.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Mr Supercessionist Ad O
I'm sorry, isn't Ad Orientem female?

A geezer.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Parsimony. That's all.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
A geezer.

Ah, I see! Not in the US sense (which implies someone very, very old) but the UK sense. Sorry, I can only speculate about why I thought you were female--maybe it was all the discussion about head coverings in church. [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
A geezer.
Ah, I see! Not in the US sense (which implies someone very, very old) but the UK sense. Sorry, I can only speculate about why I thought you were female--maybe it was all the discussion about head coverings in church.

No worries.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

AO,

You do realise, don't you, that by starting this hell call, you've simply pinned a target on your back? And achieved what? We all know what Martin is like. He's one of the oddballs that make the Ship of Fools what it is. Or would you rather rename this the Ship of Dogmatic Dullards?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Generally speaking, the "Hell Call" mechanism works best and makes the most sense when the person being called ("callee") has been being an asshole (or "arsehole" for you transponders). Calling someone to Hell for their theology, or their interests, their unclarity, or for something about their posting style other than assholicity, usually ends less well.

</pontificate>

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
AO,

You do realise, don't you, that by starting this hell call, you've simply pinned a target on your back?

Perhaps, but I can take flack like water off a duck's back.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Or off a parrot's back.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I can take flack like water off a duck's back.

Dear Lord, it's not bad enough that you're as mentally inflexible as EtymologicalEvangelical, but now you're as braggadocioid as ThomasDF.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Dear Lord, it's not bad enough that you're as mentally inflexible as EtymologicalEvangelical, but now you're as braggadocioid as ThomasDF.

So, like, where did these people go? I don't think I met either of them...

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I can take flack like water off a duck's back.
Dear Lord, it's not bad enough that you're as mentally inflexible as EtymologicalEvangelical, but now you're as braggadocioid as ThomasDF.

Eh? We're all grown-ups here, aren't we? So we should all be able to take a little flack without getting too upset about.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Eh? We're all grown-ups here, aren't we? So we should all be able to take a little flack without getting too upset about.

The issue is that you do not appear to understand that the views of others might well be as valid as yours. That your view is as much interpretation as any other.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Eh? We're all grown-ups here, aren't we? So we should all be able to take a little flack without getting too upset about.
The issue is that you do not appear to understand that the views of others might well be as valid as yours. That your view is as much interpretation as any other.

Ah! You mean become a relativist or something like that?

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

[brick wall]

Now, this is another thing; imparting an extreme position where none existed.
Is this trait deliberately contentious or spectacularly dense?

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

No, some views I just think are plain wrong.

[ 07. August 2014, 04:50: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
No, some views I just think are plain wrong.

As do we all. We're not all assholes about it, however.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
No, some views I just think are plain wrong.
As do we all. We're not all assholes about it, however.

I might be vociferous. I'm not sure I've been an arsehole though. But, whatever...

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
No, some views I just think are plain wrong.

Strangely, none of them are ever your own.

EDIT: The fact that you jumped to the conclusion that lilBuddha was talking about relativism is a perfect demonstration of how you haven't got a clue.

[ 07. August 2014, 05:53: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Often you react as if someone talked to you in Martian.

You leave us out of this.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

I've been waiting for Mavin's post for hours. [Big Grin]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

I had a football game to go to. Then sleep.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Marvin, as Martians are already blue, what colour do you turn when you get very cold? Please sir, pretty please sir.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
as Martians are already blue

Wherever did you get that idea?

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
No, some views I just think are plain wrong.
As do we all. We're not all assholes about it, however.
I might be vociferous. I'm not sure I've been an arsehole though. But, whatever...

No you're not a genuine arsehole. Opinionated yes. One track yes. But hey, we opinionated ones mostly all are. Your prevailing sin may be the appeal to your particular version of authority that rankles people that don't like the idea of authority at all (although they themselves are beset by the condition) but like you say, it's good to have geezers like you aboard as long as you're reasonably civil.

You've just touched a nerve. Martin is a tolerated and sometimes loved ship lunatic.

So prepare for backlash.

Personally I used to try and dissect his manner and understand what he says but in the end it was too much hard work. Just like poetry is too much hard work.

But he has occasional lucid gems which I do adore.

[ 07. August 2014, 11:08: Message edited by: Evensong ]

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
as Martians are already blue
Wherever did you get that idea?

Sorry, I just had a mental image of a Smurf there.

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

[Tangent]

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
... having fun might get us sent to that "8" place, which I fear much more than Hell.

Come on - jump in and join us - the water's lovely when you get used to it. [/Tangent]

P.S. Martians are green as eny fule kno.

[ 07. August 2014, 12:20: Message edited by: QLib ]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
No, some views I just think are plain wrong.
As do we all. We're not all assholes about it, however.
I might be vociferous. I'm not sure I've been an arsehole though. But, whatever...

If you're right, then your response to lilBuddha wasn't assholity, it was abject moronity.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
No, some views I just think are plain wrong.

This view is just plain wrong.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
No, some views I just think are plain wrong.
This view is just plain wrong.

But have you referred to the Church Fathers before making that statement? [Biased]

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

AD: Here's a fine example from Purgatory of your assertions stated as prima facia facts.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Silly boy, the Fathers have said all there needs to be said, and so has the Apostle. If they haven't, then it can clearly be implied that they spoke with their silence. And context is everything, except where it isn't, which is also clear because of what the Fathers have said, except for where they haven't, and that is the clearest of all.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Silly boy, the Fathers have said all there needs to be said, and so has the Apostle. If they haven't, then it can clearly be implied that they spoke with their silence. And context is everything, except where it isn't, which is also clear because of what the Fathers have said, except for where they haven't, and that is the clearest of all.

I'm sorry. I should have known that. How stupid am I? [Disappointed]

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
originally posted by Evensong:
You've just touched a nerve. Martin is a tolerated and sometimes loved ship lunatic.

At least now that Martin's obscure rants essentially parrot left wing boilerplate, Martin has become a tolerated and loved ship lunatic. Prior to that, Martin was neither loved nor tolerated. Apparently, only I remember that.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

The is neither left nor right in Jesus Christ. Nor parrots nor Martians (save Marvin).

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The is neither left nor right in Jesus Christ. Nor parrots nor Martians (save Marvin).

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:
originally posted by Evensong:
You've just touched a nerve. Martin is a tolerated and sometimes loved ship lunatic.

At least now that Martin's obscure rants essentially parrot left wing boilerplate, Martin has become a tolerated and loved ship lunatic. Prior to that, Martin was neither loved nor tolerated. Apparently, only I remember that.

Or you think you remember it, which is not quite the same thing.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

No, I remember it very well. Not like it was a long time ago.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The is neither left nor right in Jesus Christ. Nor parrots nor Martians (save Marvin).
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

I think I understand. The OT -NT recapitulation. But why would we personify and flatter the OT. Mere dwarves on the shoulders of giants we.

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:
originally posted by Evensong:
You've just touched a nerve. Martin is a tolerated and sometimes loved ship lunatic.

At least now that Martin's obscure rants essentially parrot left wing boilerplate, Martin has become a tolerated and loved ship lunatic. Prior to that, Martin was neither loved nor tolerated. Apparently, only I remember that.

Your memory is failing you.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

No, it isn't. Comet always loved Martin. The rest are newcomers to the love Martin bandwagon.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

When did this change supposedly happen?

I've liked him for years.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
No, it isn't. Comet always loved Martin. The rest are newcomers to the love Martin bandwagon.

Until quite recently Martin PC posted self-indulgent bollocks. He got pulled up for it (IIRC), took a break and since then has made a lot more sense. OK, he's sometimes cryptic, but it hasn't been such hard work for at least 12 months. By making his posts more accessible he's scored some points (though we don't keep count).

Maybe you're cutting through the crap more easily too now?

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Glad to see I'm not the only one that remembers history more or less the way it happened. You do offer a slightly different interpretation of it. When Martin posted stuff that clashed with the left wing ethos of the Ship, it was self indulgent bollocks. Now that his thinking fits within the mainstream of the Ship, he has become an eccentric beloved poet while the former not politically correct biohazard has vanished from the collective memory.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Most of the time, I wouldn't be able to tell if Martin's posts clash with 'left wing ethos' or not.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

Collective memory? Following Comet's lead? I beg your pardon. I can barely remember my own grudges for more than a few days, much less everyone else's. I do know I've liked Martin and his obscure delivery, long before you or Comet joined ship.

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
At least now that Martin's obscure rants essentially parrot left wing boilerplate, Martin has become a tolerated and loved ship lunatic.

Well, I don't know how beloved Martin was then or is now. I don't keep track of that sort of thing myself.

But you are correct about his change to being obscure about typical "liberal" opinions these days. And here's a curious effect. When Martin was being obscure about atypical (at least atypical for SoF) "conservative" opinions, I remember distinctly that I often was one of the few people who were grasping what he was saying most of the time. I did several posts where I basically "translated" (paraphrased) Martin for general consumption, and apparently successfully so (at least Martin seemed to be happy with the result).

Now that he has flipped to the endarkened side, I find myself more often than not baffled by his comments. So to me, his level of gibberish and incoherence has significantly increased...

This suggest that maybe Martin has stayed pretty much as he was. But that the difficulty of filtering the signal out of the noise of his blather is really to a large extent dependent on how close one is in opinion. If one is close enough in opinion, then by a kind of linguistic resonance one is largely able to get what he is saying. If one is far, then it all just becomes a blur of bullshit. If so, then the reason why many people think he has "improved" his writing is not that he has actually done so, but rather that the errors he is peddling these days are closer to the majority thinking of SoF.

Anyway, if true then this is a rather interesting cognitive phenomenon. I wonder if this has been studied before. If I were a psychologist, I would now think about turning this into some kind of study...

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Glad to see I'm not the only one that remembers history more or less the way it happened. You do offer a slightly different interpretation of it. When Martin posted stuff that clashed with the left wing ethos of the Ship, it was self indulgent bollocks. Now that his thinking fits within the mainstream of the Ship, he has become an eccentric beloved poet while the former not politically correct biohazard has vanished from the collective memory.

I ask again, when did he start posting supposedly left-wing stuff?

I'm with Sioni Sais on this, simply that he's making more of an effort to be understood.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
No, it isn't. Comet always loved Martin. The rest are newcomers to the love Martin bandwagon.

It's okay, I love you as well. Love is all you need. Love love love. 💝

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Glad to see I'm not the only one that remembers history more or less the way it happened. You do offer a slightly different interpretation of it. When Martin posted stuff that clashed with the left wing ethos of the Ship, it was self indulgent bollocks. Now that his thinking fits within the mainstream of the Ship, he has become an eccentric beloved poet while the former not politically correct biohazard has vanished from the collective memory.
I ask again, when did he start posting supposedly left-wing stuff?

I suspect that BA is incapable of distinguishing between liberal and left-wing. Not that Martin fits neatly into any of those boxes anyway, but I think it's true that Martin has become more theologically liberal over the years. However, I would have said that that move was well underway before BA graced us with his presence, so his insistence that none of this was a long time ago is even more puzzling. Perhaps Martin's recent efforts to express himself more clearly have made the change of heart seem more recent and radical than it actually was.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Glad to see I'm not the only one that remembers history more or less the way it happened. You do offer a slightly different interpretation of it. When Martin posted stuff that clashed with the left wing ethos of the Ship, it was self indulgent bollocks. Now that his thinking fits within the mainstream of the Ship, he has become an eccentric beloved poet while the former not politically correct biohazard has vanished from the collective memory.
I ask again, when did he start posting supposedly left-wing stuff?

I'm with Sioni Sais on this, simply that he's making more of an effort to be understood.

It happened over the last two years. I can't say exactly when because I didn't participate on Ship of Fools for most of 2013.

quote:
originally posted by QLib:
suspect that BA is incapable of distinguishing between liberal and left-wing.

And you can fuck right the hell off too. BA knows that politically liberal means something different in Europe than it does in United States. I've never understood why I was supposed to accept the European usage of the word was correct but whatever. As a result of BA knowing that, BA tries to remember to use Left Wing or Progressive when talking about the political left. Why? Because BA knows some prissy pedant will make that rather stupid point every single fucking time. In your case, QLib, you'll make the point rather it's relevant or not. Theological liberal means theological liberal every place. Martin's theology and his politics have taken a left turn over the last two years. And, no, this did not happen before I graced you with my presence. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Glad to see I'm not the only one that remembers history more or less the way it happened. You do offer a slightly different interpretation of it. When Martin posted stuff that clashed with the left wing ethos of the Ship, it was self indulgent bollocks. Now that his thinking fits within the mainstream of the Ship, he has become an eccentric beloved poet while the former not politically correct biohazard has vanished from the collective memory.

IMHO it is still self-indulgent bollocks.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
At least now that Martin's obscure rants essentially parrot left wing boilerplate, Martin has become a tolerated and loved ship lunatic.
Well, I don't know how beloved Martin was then or is now. I don't keep track of that sort of thing myself.

But you are correct about his change to being obscure about typical "liberal" opinions these days. And here's a curious effect. When Martin was being obscure about atypical (at least atypical for SoF) "conservative" opinions, I remember distinctly that I often was one of the few people who were grasping what he was saying most of the time. I did several posts where I basically "translated" (paraphrased) Martin for general consumption, and apparently successfully so (at least Martin seemed to be happy with the result).

Now that he has flipped to the endarkened side, I find myself more often than not baffled by his comments. So to me, his level of gibberish and incoherence has significantly increased...

This suggest that maybe Martin has stayed pretty much as he was. But that the difficulty of filtering the signal out of the noise of his blather is really to a large extent dependent on how close one is in opinion. If one is close enough in opinion, then by a kind of linguistic resonance one is largely able to get what he is saying. If one is far, then it all just becomes a blur of bullshit. If so, then the reason why many people think he has "improved" his writing is not that he has actually done so, but rather that the errors he is peddling these days are closer to the majority thinking of SoF.

Anyway, if true then this is a rather interesting cognitive phenomenon. I wonder if this has been studied before. If I were a psychologist, I would now think about turning this into some kind of study...

Something along these lines perhaps?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Not really. In your example words are used with plain meanings to form a simple sentence.

Martin eschews clarity and simplicity, although his grammar and spelling are first rate.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
When Martin posted stuff that clashed with the left wing ethos of the Ship, it was self indulgent bollocks. Now that his thinking fits within the mainstream of the Ship, he has become an eccentric beloved poet while the former not politically correct biohazard has vanished from the collective memory.

And if he'd gone all Thatcher, you'd be amongst his acolytes. It is human nature, not any great revelation.
ISTM, there are those for whom the apple has lost its sheen, regardless of its colour.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
No, it isn't. Comet always loved Martin. The rest are newcomers to the love Martin bandwagon.

This is bullshit.

I know I'm a newcomer to the tolerate Martin bandwagon, because (and let's see if your wonderful memory can verify this) I issued a Hellcall to him back in the day, exasperated by the sheer unintelligibility of his posts.

But the reason I know your claim is bullshit is that a considerable number of people were expressing their affection towards Martin back then. I kind of noticed, given that I was expressing the opinion that I couldn't stand the man.

And tolerating him more recently has got precisely nothing to do with his political views. I couldn't really tell you what his political views are - he hasn't reached that level of clarity. But his posting style has changed. And it changed because he got punished. We had a marvellous little Hell thread where doublethink (who was then a Hellhost) applied a readability index to Martin's posts and removed all the vowels from any post that was above the stated limit. Then, I think, he got a couple of weeks shore leave.

And for those who have warmed to Martin: people don't just like Martin more on the grounds of him agreeing with him more. They like Martin more on the grounds of understanding him more.

[ 09. August 2014, 01:50: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
When Martin posted stuff that clashed with the left wing ethos of the Ship, it was self indulgent bollocks. Now that his thinking fits within the mainstream of the Ship, he has become an eccentric beloved poet while the former not politically correct biohazard has vanished from the collective memory.
And if he'd gone all Thatcher, you'd be amongst his acolytes. It is human nature, not any great revelation.
ISTM, there are those for whom the apple has lost its sheen, regardless of its colour.

I didn't call Martin to Hell. He called me to Hell a few weeks back. I've never called him to Hell. I've said several times I think Martin is a good person.

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Not that Martin fits neatly into any of those boxes anyway, but I think it's true that Martin has become more theologically liberal over the years. However, I would have said that that move was well underway before BA graced us with his presence, so his insistence that none of this was a long time ago is even more puzzling.

There has been a pretty clear change relatively recently. I think this is a rather lucid statement of what happened to him (my emphasis): "My faith in the Bible as divinely inspired has never been greater! As a true postmodern liberal. The latest fad which I'm in to after decades of fundamentalism and a rapid excursion through the charismatic-evangelical. Thought I'd found a home in the neo-orthodox but that's been stretched by the Spirit of the time. Brian McLaren and Rob Bell mainly (and Greg Boyd and Peter Rollins and Richard Rohr and Steve Chalke and ...) have turned on the light if generous, progressive, inclusive orthodoxy." I think this change happened for the most part in 2012, with a turning point roughly in the middle of the year, where in particular the mentioned names Brian McLaren and Rob Bell seemed to have played a role.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Not really. In your example words are used with plain meanings to form a simple sentence.

Martin eschews clarity and simplicity, although his grammar and spelling are first rate.

Not an exact match but the idea that the brain is able to unscramble and understand familiar things expressed in unfamiliar ways because the bigger picture matters more than the exact details.

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
There has been a pretty clear change relatively recently. I think this is a rather lucid statement of what happened to him (my emphasis): "My faith in the Bible as divinely inspired has never been greater! As a true postmodern liberal. The latest fad which I'm in to after decades of fundamentalism and a rapid excursion through the charismatic-evangelical. Thought I'd found a home in the neo-orthodox but that's been stretched by the Spirit of the time. Brian McLaren and Rob Bell mainly (and Greg Boyd and Peter Rollins and Richard Rohr and Steve Chalke and ...) have turned on the light if generous, progressive, inclusive orthodoxy." I think this change happened for the most part in 2012, with a turning point roughly in the middle of the year, where in particular the mentioned names Brian McLaren and Rob Bell seemed to have played a role.

Fair enough - that's clear evidence of a recent change. I must admit that I had assumed claims to be a post-modern liberal were made tongue-in-cheek (or perhaps it would be kinder to say playfully), but maybe not. I would still argue that Martin's journey has been heading towards generous and inclusive for quite some time.

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
This suggest that maybe Martin has stayed pretty much as he was. But that the difficulty of filtering the signal out of the noise of his blather is really to a large extent dependent on how close one is in opinion. If one is close enough in opinion, then by a kind of linguistic resonance one is largely able to get what he is saying. If one is far, then it all just becomes a blur of bullshit.

There could be some truth in this. I find Martin's posts pretty understandable now, and insightful. It used to be that I struggled to get what he was pointing at.

However, I do think he's made a big effort to be more understandable too - it's not like the two observations ("Martin's gone more liberal, so liberal types find him easier to understand" and "Martin's tried harder to become clearer" are mutually exclusive).

The thing I used to be most unsure of with Martin was the "God the Killer" narrative, and where he was going with it. But it seems he's moved on from there now anyhow.

The thing is, though, I've gone on a similar theological journey, at a similar pace, so it's not like I've ever been very far away from Martin. I also think the nature of Martin's posts is that it shows he does want to learn & grow. Not only is he insightful, but he genuinely seems to want to engage with others and continue developing.

On the other hand, Ad Orientem, ISTM that, as Orfeo says, your posts are mainly assertion with very little argument. Given that a) I probably know your opinion before you say it, and b) I'm familiar with some of the arguments behind your opinion, even though you rarely go so far as to use them, the assertions - minus any meat - get pretty tiring. It'd be nice to get to the nitty gritty a bit more.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

Some time ago I remember Martin apologising to all gay etc Shipmates for the hurt he had caused them by the views he used to hold. Although I'd never noticed him being anti-gay, it was a moving and heartfelt apology. I respect a guy like that.

Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Why protest the obscure utterances of one among the many when outrageous clarity abounds upon our vessel of vanity? Are erratic euphemisms more erroneous than articulated lorries of ennui? Should Martin Neither Particularly Correct Nor Wholly Wrong be shunned when all about are Headless Chickens of Chaos masquerading as Lords of Logic? I think not neither do I post!

You just caused my head to explode. I'll have to get some sort of cleaning product to wipe my grey matter off the laptop screen.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

Not for nothing, I would rather read Martin's mystic twaddle than about 50% of the rest of the stuff on here. By aiming to miss he hits more than some who explain it all VERY CAREFULLY AND AT GREAT LENGHT (often with numbered points).

"Tell the truth but tell is slant ..." and all that.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

Indeed. That's what takes me away from thinking of him as being a oh-so-thought-things-through Liberal. He has heart.

Posted by St. Punk the Pious (# 683) on :

. . . And his unique style provokes a hell call about once a year. [Smile]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

His style is far less cryptic than it used to be.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
His style is far less cryptic than it used to be.

So was Linear A after they cracked it. It was still illegible to all but a tiny handful of human beings.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

And Korean is only comprehensible to people who have, at some point in their lives, learnt Korean.

Except of course when God imparts miraculous gifts relating to tongues.

Just think, if I'd been born somewhere where teaching young people English wasn't standard practice (even in the home!), I might have evaded the role of Hellhost entirely. One can only dream.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I thought only Linear B was deciphered?

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Yup.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Indeed. That's what takes me away from thinking of him as being a oh-so-thought-things-through Liberal. He has heart.

Oi! I take great offence at that.

Are you saying us thinking liberals have no heart?

Au contraire. We just wrap our bleeding hearts in cold, hard reason. Protective mechanism ya know?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I thought only Linear B was deciphered?

Too right. Got my Linears out of line.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Martin, would you fucking please stop bagging all over Christendom? According to you lately, Christianity is responsible for every evil since humanity crawled out from under a rock.

Witness:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
While we wait for God to change the hearts and minds of these innocent barbarians (you and me but for the 'grace of God': time and chance), what do we do? Blast them off the Mosul dam? We - that's Christendom - created this nightmare with our money, our trade, our foreign policy since 1914-17-2014, our religion, so yes it's impossible to just stop our juggernaut and its effects. President Obama is doing a remarkably nuanced, restrained, minimal, positive, engaged job in undoing the damage of his predecessor. He's still killing killers. Causing them to kill more. Because, as usual, Christianity does, says, thinks NOTHING.

I could gather more quotes, but [Projectile]

.

Look, some of us* in Christianity/Christendom/whatever are trying our damndest to do things right. We fuck up, of course. But it isn't making things better when you're shooting at us from our own side. We manage to guilt ourselves to death quite well already, thank you.

Give us a break, and consider showing some mercy on your fellow believers. Because it's damned hard to do anybody any good when you're dodging fire from both directions.

* most of us IMHO

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Look, some of us* in Christianity/Christendom/whatever are trying our damndest to do things right. We fuck up, of course. But it isn't making things better when you're shooting at us from our own side. We manage to guilt ourselves to death quite well already, thank you.

Give us a break, and consider showing some mercy on your fellow believers. Because it's damned hard to do anybody any good when you're dodging fire from both directions.

Amen. I love you, Martin, but amen.

Posted by Luigi (# 4031) on :

Best Hell thread in a long time! [Biased]

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Indeed.

And I use the term Christendom provocatively, yes, as if the medieval geopolitical power was extant. Which in a sense it is, just under the surface of Western civilization, which it spawned, with a billion-odd adherents, responsible still more than any other force for the state of the world.

Even Pope Frank is getting violent now. How sad. How partisan. How understandable.

Even I said God bless America when they relatively surgically struck the IS. How sad ...

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Fine. I'm provoked. Are you going to engage with my point?

Because it fucking pisses me off and tires me out when I spend the morning dealing with refugee X's problems and then drop onto the Ship for a moment to be told that Christianity, of which I am a part, is a dreadful rotten no-good very bad instigator of Everything Bad in the Universe. And it continues to annoy the fucking hell out of me until I go back to what I really ought to be doing, which is calling a fucking credit counseling agency for refugee Y and setting up an appointment, before following up with refugee Z whose brother is on the verge of being indicted for attempted murder.

I mean, bloody hell. How am I suppose to get my fair share of oppressing the world done in the chinks of time in between these things? Might have to give up the Ship to do it properly. Can't let Christendom down, you know.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Fine. I'm provoked. Are you going to engage with my point?

Because it fucking pisses me off and tires me out when I spend the morning dealing with refugee X's problems and then drop onto the Ship for a moment to be told that Christianity, of which I am a part, is a dreadful rotten no-good very bad instigator of Everything Bad in the Universe. And it continues to annoy the fucking hell out of me until I go back to what I really ought to be doing, which is calling a fucking credit counseling agency for refugee Y and setting up an appointment, before following up with refugee Z whose brother is on the verge of being indicted for attempted murder.

I mean, bloody hell. How am I suppose to get my fair share of oppressing the world done in the chinks of time in between these things? Might have to give up the Ship to do it properly. Can't let Christendom down, you know.

Let's face it Lamb - I doubt if we'll get far with Martin. He seems to be treated as an endangered species on the ship.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Fine. I'm provoked. Are you going to engage with my point?

You are waiting for Martin to defend any of the nonsense he spouts about Christendom?

Don't hold your breath.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Fine. I'm provoked. Are you going to engage with my point?

Because it fucking pisses me off and tires me out when I spend the morning dealing with refugee X's problems and then drop onto the Ship for a moment to be told that Christianity, of which I am a part, is a dreadful rotten no-good very bad instigator of Everything Bad in the Universe. And it continues to annoy the fucking hell out of me until I go back to what I really ought to be doing, which is calling a fucking credit counseling agency for refugee Y and setting up an appointment, before following up with refugee Z whose brother is on the verge of being indicted for attempted murder.

I mean, bloody hell. How am I suppose to get my fair share of oppressing the world done in the chinks of time in between these things? Might have to give up the Ship to do it properly. Can't let Christendom down, you know.

Lamb Chopped...Lamb Chopped...Lamb Chopped...

You are an American. America is a Christian nation. Therefore, the Vietnam War was a Christian war. Because it was a Christian war, the North Vietnamese were on the side of the angels. Hence, every negative consequence that stems from the Vietnam War is the fault of Christianity and American Christians of which you are one. So, working with the Vietnamese refugees is really the least you can do to make up for the part you played demonic Christian war in Vietnam.

Christendom is also responsible for the deaths of Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, and the Big Bopper. That's right, Lamb Chopped. You killed the music.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I don't think he's an endangered species at all--I think he's quite clever and knows what he's doing when he winds people up. In fact, much of the time I like him--but I loathe this anti-Christian schtick, and especially the grand arrogant tone with which he pronounces it. Fair sets my teeth on edge.

Nor do I have any beef with how he's been treated--he's been pulled up sharply before, and is probably sailing pretty near the wind again.

And no, I don't think he's going to give me satisfaction on this, though I'd be glad to be pleasantly surprised. But I'll want more than an apology--I want to see a change. "Loving your neighbor" includes loving your Christian neighbor, and treating them, too, as Christ has treated you.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Beeswax Altar, you're right. (sobs) I was two bloody years old at the time, and I singlehandedly managed to destroy the peace and harmony of the entire Southeast Asian region. (It was the diapers that did it)

Oh, I forgot. Me and bloody Christendom.

I'm eeeeeeeeevillllll, I tell you, eeeeeevillll.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

Nah, I pretty much agree with the OP. MPC is pretty much a wanker (as is the OP though).

His posts cover up a lack of actual content.

Meaningless drivel masquerading as intellectual high-mindedness.

But I think that about most of you anyway so he's nowt special.

Been on me holidays. Back now. Have you missed me?

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

The Christian institution , Christendom, whatever it is or isn't, does have a lot to answer for where love, forgiveness and peace are concerned.
100 years ago it wrought the exact opposite and I've yet to come across a satisfactory explanation as why this was so , although I think Martin came close with his phrase 'Book people'.

A person who truly loves their God, and uses this as a mechanism to love others and to discern good and bad in their own heart does , OtOH , have nothing over which they should reproach themselves.

Of course an individual Christian may fail , even on a daily basis , but when Christendom fails as a whole, as it did a Century ago, the results are spectacularly more devastating and hard to fathom.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Not at my age and with diabetes etc, etc deano, you?

Lamb Chopped. God bless you. The good that you do shines in the darkness.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Talking of wankers, that's a nice fallacy you got there Beeswax.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Not at my age and with diabetes etc, etc deano, you?

Lamb Chopped. God bless you. The good that you do shines in the darkness.

Now and again, if the mood takes me. But I wasn't accusing you of the act, I was using it in the sense of a common, vulgar insult. Oh dear, wasn't my post clear?

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

As a bell dear, hence my confusing. See my comment on the ISIS thread.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Talking of wankers, that's a nice fallacy you got there Beeswax.

Wouldn't be the first one lately.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Rosa. [Biased]

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Well, maybe Rosa could point out an actual fallacy I'm making. Martin sure can't. He never does preferring instead to make vague and unsubstantiated claims. Perhaps Rosa prefers to take the Martin approach. It is easier.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Martin, you're doing a reverse ad hominem. Complimenting me isn't engaging with the point. Please?

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Lamb Chopped. I didn't JUST compliment you. I acknowledge the good done by Christianity. The work of the Holy Spirit, the fruits of the Spirit empowered above and beyond any natural capability.

That good is all but swamped by mediocrity, by legalism, ritual, by silence, acquiescence and worse, on and on and ON. WE are pathetic. There's two billion of us. You'd suspect that a burger that was 30% salt would taste salty.

Even now there is NO clear voice, even from saint George, on how to respond to 'our' enemies, 'the' enemies of civilization; civilization - Babylon - is, we are, the enemy.

And we can't help it. We're innocent in this. The arc is incredibly long.

I accept that things happen at the margin and the positive influence of Christianity - of the fruits of the Spirit, of love - in 2000 years is probably disproportionate to its, His, marginal presence in us. But it's hard to see the God of history in history. And that's an understatement. Where is the synergy of our individually being a blessing? We'd miss it if it weren't there, but cannot discern it while it is. Like God in creation generally.

I expect too much of us I'm sure. This is it and will be for more hundreds of thousands of years.

Counsel me, on what I should feel and think and say and do.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

I don't think I'd equate Christianity with Christendom. I suspect Martin doesn't either.

Usually it's either right-wing loonies or Muslim fanatics who treat the West as some kind of monolithic Christian land.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

quote:
I don't think I'd equate Christianity with Christendom...

...Muslim fanatics (who) treat the West as some kind of monolithic Christian land.

The state's main competence, I have been led to understand (Dooyeweerd, the judicial aspect) is the provision of law.

It is my guess that people who follow religions based in law might find it hard to imagine a religion as existing separately from the state. Some (eg IS) see the state as a necessary precondition for the proper practice of their religion. I expect that cultural/religious view bleeds all over their view of everyone else, Christians included.

As a tangent, the Chinese seem to have recently got their heads around this (render unto Caesar, etc), and the benefits to the historic West of an internalised Christian morality amongst some of the populace acting counter to the corruption problems always present with an externally applied state law. A happy result is that Christian churches are far more widely tolerated (and, I'm told, in some cases encouraged) there than was previously the case.

It's hard for the English. We're so very sorry for all the shit which must have happened to make us so wealthy, back in the day when 'we' were important. I guess US folks have that feeling coming. It may be some time before the Chinese are beating their breasts in shame over their current neo-colonial exploits in Africa; I wonder if the expansion of the Christian church in China means that if and when they do, they will do so in the name of christendom.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Well, maybe Rosa could point out an actual fallacy I'm making. Martin sure can't. He never does preferring instead to make vague and unsubstantiated claims. Perhaps Rosa prefers to take the Martin approach. It is easier.

Your claim that big protests lead to riots. You ended up qualifying it, but your initial statement was hyperbole. Your claim that Martin is only popular among some due to his supposed change to left-wing views is another one.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

I trust you got the double entendre Rosa?

He's missed his glaringly obvious non sequitur of course.

[ 21. August 2014, 21:16: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

And orfeo, I'm not a right-wing loony any more so I must be a ... ?

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

... complete fucking loony?

Is that the answer? "Complete fucking loony"?

I'll go with complete fucking loony!

Posted by Socratic-enigma (# 12074) on :

I like Martin

S-E

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And orfeo, I'm not a right-wing loony any more so I must be a ... ?

Well, that depends on whether or not you are indeed intending to equate Christianity with Christendom, doesn't it?

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
... complete fucking loony?

Is that the answer? "Complete fucking loony"?

I'll go with complete fucking loony!

Might be celibate.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

What do you think orfeo?

deano's right of course. Well as right as a person who is blinded, as the vast majority of Christians have been, by seeing darkness as light.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

And no I'm not a wanker. Therefore I am a ...

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And no I'm not a wanker. Therefore I am a ...

... wankee? [Confused]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And no I'm not a wanker. Therefore I am a ...
... wankee?

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What do you think orfeo?

deano's right of course. Well as right as a person who is blinded, as the vast majority of Christians have been, by seeing darkness as light.

I already said what I thought. I said I suspected you weren't trying to equate the two. You can confirm or deny my suspicion or just leave me to my own thoughts, it's up to you. But the conversation won't get much further without some kind of positive contribution form you.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Lamb Chopped. I didn't JUST compliment you. I acknowledge the good done by Christianity. The work of the Holy Spirit, the fruits of the Spirit empowered above and beyond any natural capability.

That good is all but swamped by mediocrity, by legalism, ritual, by silence, acquiescence and worse, on and on and ON. WE are pathetic. There's two billion of us. You'd suspect that a burger that was 30% salt would taste salty.

Even now there is NO clear voice, even from saint George, on how to respond to 'our' enemies, 'the' enemies of civilization; civilization - Babylon - is, we are, the enemy.

And we can't help it. We're innocent in this. The arc is incredibly long.

I accept that things happen at the margin and the positive influence of Christianity - of the fruits of the Spirit, of love - in 2000 years is probably disproportionate to its, His, marginal presence in us. But it's hard to see the God of history in history. And that's an understatement. Where is the synergy of our individually being a blessing? We'd miss it if it weren't there, but cannot discern it while it is. Like God in creation generally.

I expect too much of us I'm sure. This is it and will be for more hundreds of thousands of years.

Counsel me, on what I should feel and think and say and do.

First of all, please never compliment me again. Because you don't know what I do in real life, and what I fail to do, well enough. I could be a fucking liar, you know. And more importantly, because you've used it multiple times to divert attention from an important issue--namely, your behavior toward fellow Christians.

Second, it's Captain Obvious time again. "Love your neighbor as yourself." Your Christian neighbor, as well as your nonChristian neighbor. I'm going to dip into Luther since he puts it far better than I do:

quote:
We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

I'll give you a pass on the lying bit. But notice the rest of it--the positive side of the eighth commandment, which is a tiny slice of the Great Commandment. "Defend him, speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything." You manage to do this for the Muslims and just about every nonChristian group I've seen you mention. Now do it for the Christians as well--and yes, this includes whichever particular Christians you are referring to when you say "Christendom," even crusaders and presidents are your neighbor--and then you'll be doing well.

Seriously, the Christian Church doesn't need relentless, continuous attack from you. The effect on readers--on me, anyway--is either rage or a helpless feeling of "what the fuck, I've tried so hard and this is what we get? Why even try?" Is that the response you want? Seriously, you're on the internet, dude. Do you want to be discouraging the hell out of any number of random Christians who come across your posts on a day when they're already feeling beaten down? Why add to their burdens?

You've done that complimenting thing many times, and I start to realize why it bugs me. You are separating me out, mentally, from Christianity. Or Christendom. Whatever. Basically you are saying that my reactions to your negative posts don't matter because I'm not part of the group you are attacking. Think again. I am fucking Christendom. In all my flaws AND in my Christlike moments. And so are the other people who toil away quietly around the world, unnoticed, in slums and hospitals and offices and battlefields. And so are the victims who suffer from oppression and war and rape and mental illness, from racism and sexism and every other kind of ism, even sometimes at the hands of their fellow Christians, and yet cling to Christ. They, and we, are Christendom together.

Work on building us all up, would you? Please. PLEASE.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Good counsel.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Thank you Lamb Chopped. I repent of discouraging you and anyone and everyone else. Please forgive me. Your brother Martin.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

If you look for sanctification and the presence of the Spirit in the "God of history" as you call it, you will inevitably be disappointed because we usually hear only the Bad News.

And there certainly is Bad News.

But IMO, the Good News outweighs the Bad News. You just have to look at different sources and see the small stuff on the ground.

The small stuff matters and it is most definitely there. As you said, you'd miss it if it wasn't.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Thanks Evensong. The link doesn't 'work' for me. Lamb Chopped does more than they can know. But I know I'm a repeat offender. Although it's never quite the same stream twice. I really, REALLY don't want to discourage. Yet I do. From my discouragement.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

nb: Link OK for me.

Sioni Sais, Hellhost

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

Martin. I hope by now you know I have big love for you.

The father of lies will always try and find a way to drag us all "off course." Having swept your old house clean you fall into one of his favourite traps.

As has been pointed out, the only thing you get to comment on is your relationship, your hope, your faith, your love.

You have no idea how much love, faith and hope is going on right now because the VAST majority of it is done humbly and unseen.

Chin up dude, chin up. Put a smile on and stop being such an eeyore. If it is troubling you too much go and do someone else some good.

[ 23. August 2014, 15:09: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Thanks.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Thank you Lamb Chopped. I repent of discouraging you and anyone and everyone else. Please forgive me. Your brother Martin.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Pyx_e. Thanks. A LOT. That's HUGE. And incredibly difficult. I'm helplessly privileged. There's NO ONE I can help today. No one. No one at church apart from being pleasant back to everyone and gregarious as I am, there was NO ONE who needed my attention. Quite remarkable. No one at home either. There's a guy a couple of blocks away and he's really difficult to 'serve'. That niggles.

My stepson stayed for a day, that was great. I make the point of loving him unconditionally in his Holocaust denial. I see my son tomorrow.

Then there's deano here, bless him.

Well must get on with prepping windows to paint.

And I did see my wife DO something after the sermon about rebuilding Jerusalem with prayer, going and sitting with a new, poor single mum who'd evangelized along a friend in a wheel chair. And 150 people came to Saturday Messy Church, the majority otherwise 'un-churched' mothers and children. So yes, grace is quietly abounding everywhere. I MUST emphasize that to myself above all.

Keep the still small voices coming brothers and sisters. Or the kicks in the bollocks whichever is appropriate.

I need to explore what you said in particular Lamb Chopped, but have to mull more.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Well, I get the joy of learning to love my freakin' enemies at our Saturday church, where two/three of them have just jumped all over my OCD son for asking questions during church.

fuckfuckfuckfuckfuck

It's going to be loads of fucking fun looking past that attack to the grace that is still present in the congregation.

Pyx_e is awesome.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

What IS the matter with people? Shame on them.

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