Ship of Fools: Burger King Pie Guy

Thread: Burger King Pie Guy Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Charlie-in-the-box (# 17954) on :

Kudos to the man who decided to take action regarding a demon-child and his horrible mom. Check it out:

link to Burger King pie story

Anyway special high-five to the man in this story. Even if it isn't true (who knows) it made me smile.

[Snigger]

(Edited by host to remove external content that could be found anywhere. Charlie-in-the-box, post links not great wodges of potentially copyright material, whatever its merits

Sioni Sais
Hellhost)

[ 09. August 2014, 16:50: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

I smiled when I read that story too, although it probably made the lack of parenting worse, and gave the child an even bigger sense of entitlement.

Why does giving birth seem to remove the word "no" from some women's vocabulary? And from a lot of men's too for that matter?

Posted by Charlie-in-the-box (# 17954) on :

I know my boys would have never tried the crap they tried on me with their dad. I appreciate people work two jobs and all that. I was in college and working part-time with my kids but I have left the drive thru when they started yelling and announced we were going home to eat. I'm not parent of the year, but I did do something if my kid was screaming and out of control.

Here's a hilarious one: again, not sure if it's real but it's great for a laugh:

Practically Viral

[Killing me]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

It's not uncommon around here to see a small child (or several) wambling along the street, apparently unsupervised......but, no, about a quarter-of-a-mile behind is the (presumed) mother, oblivious to anything the kids are up to, blathering away on her bloody mobile phone......

......Absentee Parenting makes me...... [Mad]

Ian J.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

This is presumably a different constituency from those who moan children are never allowed the freedom to playout, being permenantly tethered to the parent or always contactable by mobile phone ?

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

There is a difference between having the freedom to play out, and being an undisciplined, disrespectful little shit.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

When did seeing someone else's child acting like a child, even a badly behaved one, become an excuse for an adult being childish?

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

Whenever I encounter an annoying child, I frown, and then pray a silent prayer of thanksgiving to God Almighty, that he or she is not my kid.

Engaging with the child or the parents isn't very fruitful and in the larger scheme of things, you will never see them again.

What I mean to say is the Burger King Pie Guy is a dick. What about the people lining up after the kid? What if they want pies too?

[ 09. August 2014, 16:41: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Charlie-in-the-box:
I order every pie they have left in addition to my burgers. Turned out to be 23 pies in total, I take my order and walk towards the exit. Moments later I hear the woman yelling, what do you mean you don't have any pies left, who bought them all?

Bravo!

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

Oh, and by the way:

"Who ate all the pies, who ate all the pies" [Snigger]

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

I am probably going to shock everyone by saying that the outcome of the incident is a pretty perfect natural consequence. Woudn't advocate it as a general trend, but the kid is not gonna die of lack- of - pie, and in the meantime he learns that people have limits, and they might let him know about them. ( i might argue that the adult that sets and holds a limit is showing far more respect for a child than one who curries their favor through indulgence. Suck ups don't give affection, they pander to receive it. Kids figure that out.)

A speaker at one of the childcare conferences said, " it is our job to teach children how to be likable." She said the first time she said this, her audience gasped and murmured against the idea of teaching a child to rely on the validation of others, but that isn't what she meant; she was saying it is our job to teach kids basic social skills-- like everyone has to wait sometimes, and the guy with the headache hurts worse when we yell--that will give them some sort of shot at connecting with others.

I talked to my mom about this-- when Neph was old enough to begin playing board games, she would let him win ( which didn't bother me) and when he did, he would spend the next five minutes shouting at her about what a " stupid loser" she was. I would tell him not to talk to her that way, and she would scold me for interfering and insist it was just playing. I pulled her aside and said, " you gotta understand, he's gonna go back to class and talk to his friends this way, and they will hate him. "

But, like the mother in the story, part of the dynamic between them was" nobody really understands/ loves you the way I do, and that's why I cater to your every whim." It's a cheat. Our job is to give kids the tools to built connections, and indulgence at the level in the OP teaches habits that will submarine the ability to make connections. How is that love? It's locking someone into emotional dependance.

About a year later, I took him to a park, and sure enough I had to pull him aside while he was trying to join a softball game and say, " the boys keep walking away from you because all you are doing is telling them how you are the best player of everyone. Try asking them some questions about what they do."

[ 09. August 2014, 18:07: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

But this guy didn't set any limits for the child either, and we have no way of knowing if the kid was even aware that the lack of pies was related to his earlier behaviour.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Hmm. Ok. Well, then the lesson, though unstated, is simply " screaming doesn't always make thing happen." Maybe I should clarify what I mean by " natural consequence."
If mom had said, "i don't buy treats for people who shout rude thing at me" that would have been a logical consequence. The pies disappearing-- well, it isn't really a consequence because it is not expressed that way, but the reward of screaming for what you want definitely doesn't happen.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
What I mean to say is the Burger King Pie Guy is a dick. What about the people lining up after the kid? What if they want pies too?

He could probably have come to some arrangement with them. We aren't being told what he did with the other 22 pies. If he just dumped them somewhere once he was out of sight, shame on him.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

If he dumped them, it was a public service. Those things are disgusting.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

I was hoping he might have given them to some homeless people.

(I've never had a Burger King Pie.)

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Hmm. Ok. Well, then the lesson, though unstated, is simply " screaming doesn't always make thing happen." Maybe I should clarify what I mean by " natural consequence."
If mom had said, "i don't buy treats for people who shout rude thing at me" that would have been a logical consequence. The pies disappearing-- well, it isn't really a consequence because it is not expressed that way, but the reward of screaming for what you want definitely doesn't happen.

In all likelihood the kid screamed some more and Mum schlepped across the suburb to another Burger King, no lesson learnt other than screaming does get you what you want.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I really like the part where he pulls out a pie and slowly starts eating it so that the mother can see it. That must have tasted good!

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Sounds like he was trying to teach the mother a lesson as much as the child, given her own behaviour.

But also, I'd like to add a hellish mention for all the millions of advertising dollars that are consciously designed to send children into a frenzy for all this non-nutritious crap. There's research about how it's not even about the food for many kids, it's about the experience and the trinkets.

He probably doesn't remember, but I still remember the tantrum my nephew had at age 4 over wanting to go to McDonalds. And in the course of it he ran off into the road. Thank God it wasn't an overly busy one. I never saw anything like it from him before or since.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
orfeo: Sounds like he was trying to teach the mother a lesson as much as the child, given her own behaviour.

In my view, it wasn't the child's fault. Shouting that you want pie like that is a bad thing, but he needed guidance and that wasn't given to him.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

I've been known to pull out my stern inner auntie when a child is being rude and fussy towards their caretaker: "You be nice to your mom/dad/grandma!" I've never been called on it. Generally everyone involved ignores me, but it feels good.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

I was at the zoo months back and one kid, about ten or so, was running around the petting zoo punching goats in the stomach. Hard. In full view of the parents, who just sort of blandly watched him.Finally I couldn't stand it anymore and came over and used my "I ain't fuckin' around" voice: "If you keep punching the goats, they will think you are trying to fight with them. They use those horns on their heads to fight. If they decide to hit you with them, it will really really hurt."

This provoked the mom to come over and tell the kid to knock it off and lead him away, but it was almost like she needed permission to set limits with him. Like "Good, nobody will think I am evil if I tell him to stop. Or at least one person will back me up."

I think a lot of parents are really worried about being scrutinized, and this effects how they react to their child's behavior in public. Not sure if this explains the attitude of the parent in the story-- like that anxiety about scrutiny produces defensiveness-- but maybe, sorta, a little.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
This provoked the mom to come over and tell the kid to knock it off and lead him away, but it was almost like she needed permission to set limits with him. Like "Good, nobody will think I am evil if I tell him to stop. Or at least one person will back me up."

I think a lot of parents are really worried about being scrutinized, and this effects how they react to their child's behavior in public. Not sure if this explains the attitude of the parent in the story-- like that anxiety about scrutiny produces defensiveness-- but maybe, sorta, a little.

This, Kelly. This. I haven't looked at the links, but I do have young children, and I am not as in-control of them as I would like to be, or as I foresaw I would be. Reading through the other posts on this thread earlier today just made me feel like even more of a failure. One of my children is capable of really, really excessive behaviour. She is still having, at the age of six, the sort of tantrums you associate with two-year olds. Not, mostly, not-getting-things related, but rather high-strung/overanxious behaviour just getting completely out of hand. The fact is, I do feel absolutely helpless in the face of it. Sure, there are things I can do, as each one occurs, to limit its duration (today was a particularly bad day and I ended up carrying her outside and strapping her in her carseat and locking up the car and going back inside* - that was because upon being sent to her room she basically decided to kick the door down from the inside and didn't stop when I asked her to.) But all these management techniques (such as they are), feel like fiddling while Rome burns to me. Nothing, nothing, we have tried, actually stops them from happening, or reduces their frequency. Some days a normal, functioning child gets out of bed and interacts as part of a family and community, and sometimes this weird kind of possessed thing gets out of bed and just drives everyone to the brink by day's end. And there's no pattern. It's the most demoralising thing. Yet despite all this, I cannot shake the notion that somehow, on some level, this must, at least partly, be my fault.

And you know what? When I see mothers out with children who are behaving appallingly - I just feel very, very, sorry for them. Even if it is their fault.

*don't worry, it's winter here at the moment - not dangerous.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

I just read an article about the myth of the natural born teacher-- pointing out the reality that teachers might have innate talent, but it will go nowhere without mentoring, training, and collaboration of peers.

I think that goes about a hundredfold for parents. Parents feel like failures because we seem to assume parenting is innate, when it is to a huge extent learned. If a parent has to ask for help, or something happens that leads a person to comment on a child's behavior, they feel like failures-- because the kind of community collaboration it takes to grow a child and support the job of parenting is not looked at as a serious necessity. We give lip service to the idea of caregiver/ community/ parent collaboration, but in practice we leave people to figure it out themselves.

Back to Burger King guy-- I think he had really shady motives, probably largely pain based, but in general, I think appropriate feedback from people outside the family helps with socialization. Appropriate, I stress. There are always those people who get off on judging, and they are no help.

[ 10. August 2014, 09:14: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
This provoked the mom to come over and tell the kid to knock it off and lead him away, but it was almost like she needed permission to set limits with him. Like "Good, nobody will think I am evil if I tell him to stop. Or at least one person will back me up."

I think a lot of parents are really worried about being scrutinized, and this effects how they react to their child's behavior in public. Not sure if this explains the attitude of the parent in the story-- like that anxiety about scrutiny produces defensiveness-- but maybe, sorta, a little.
This, Kelly. This. I haven't looked at the links, but I do have young children, and I am not as in-control of them as I would like to be, or as I foresaw I would be. Reading through the other posts on this thread earlier today just made me feel like even more of a failure. One of my children is capable of really, really excessive behaviour. She is still having, at the age of six, the sort of tantrums you associate with two-year olds. Not, mostly, not-getting-things related, but rather high-strung/overanxious behaviour just getting completely out of hand. The fact is, I do feel absolutely helpless in the face of it. Sure, there are things I can do, as each one occurs, to limit its duration (today was a particularly bad day and I ended up carrying her outside and strapping her in her carseat and locking up the car and going back inside* - that was because upon being sent to her room she basically decided to kick the door down from the inside and didn't stop when I asked her to.) But all these management techniques (such as they are), feel like fiddling while Rome burns to me. Nothing, nothing, we have tried, actually stops them from happening, or reduces their frequency. Some days a normal, functioning child gets out of bed and interacts as part of a family and community, and sometimes this weird kind of possessed thing gets out of bed and just drives everyone to the brink by day's end. And there's no pattern. It's the most demoralising thing. Yet despite all this, I cannot shake the notion that somehow, on some level, this must, at least partly, be my fault.

And you know what? When I see mothers out with children who are behaving appallingly - I just feel very, very, sorry for them. Even if it is their fault.

*don't worry, it's winter here at the moment - not dangerous.

If standard webster-stratton type strategies don't help, you need to think about talking to health professionals. It is OK to ask for help.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
When did seeing someone else's child acting like a child, even a badly behaved one, become an excuse for an adult being childish?

When it is funny.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
It is OK to ask for help.

This all over. Not just OK, vital. For everyone.

I can't imagine coping with caregiving without having had the mentors I've had, the training I've had, without parking my butt in workshop after workshop listening to experienced old crones tell their battle stories and reporting their stratagies, without having key people to turn to when I need to talk stuff through. I 've been in a couple jobs where that wasn't available, and it was torture.Like I said, it baffles me that we expect people to just conjure this stuff up by instinct.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Here's another bystander concerned by a bad parenting incident.

Shaking child in public

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

This is the NSPCC helpline they are talking about in the article. It is the same number parents can call for advice if they are struggling.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Later, when I looked up, “child abuse” on the internet I would eventually find a 2006 Department of Education report, What to do if You’re Worried a Child is being Abused.” But its guidelines were for people who work with children, professionals charged with their care who could observe them over time. It wasn’t so much designed for members of the public who happened to see ugly scenes on buses or in the street or supermarket.

Yeah, those guidelines would be nice.

And the woman in the story did the right thing, despite the predictability of the response. The mom was losing her shit- we all do, to one extent or another, but when we do it with kids, we need folk to give us a reality check, like it or not.

When I was a first year teacher, one of my coworkers heard me call a kid " a little pain" and she snapped, " If licensing came in and heard that, you would be fired." She was right, and her intervention woke me up to what an ass I was being. I'm grateful she didn't just let it go.

Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
[QUOTE]
When I was a first year teacher, one of my coworkers heard me call a kid " a little pain" and she snapped, " If licensing came in and heard that, you would be fired." She was right, and her intervention woke me up to what an ass I was being. I'm grateful she didn't just let it go.

Seriously!? I find it utterly unreasonable that you weren't allowed to let off a bit of steam out of hearing of the children. By my experience/standards referring to a kid as "a little pain" is so mild as to barely register. Even said to the child's face, in the heat of the moment, I think that phrase is perfectly fine.

I think it was a complete over reaction on the part of your colleague and if a comment like that was grounds for firing, there would be no one in the profession left.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

No, it wasn't. I shouted it at him, when I thought no-one could hear me. I was a nineteen year old idiot, and I needed the correction.

I think she threatened me with firing just to scare me-- probably I would have just had a huge sit-down with the director. But it was a scare I needed. More to the point, nobody was really stepping to the plate to mentor me at that time, so anything that helped me take a look at how I did things was a good thing, even if it was harsh.

[ 10. August 2014, 17:38: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
By my experience/standards referring to a kid as "a little pain" is so mild as to barely register.

I once called one an "obnoxious squirt", which is exactly what he was!

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

Sometimes the child throwing the tantrum has lost it completely and can't control himself. Maybe he's tired or coming down with an illness.

In that situation, the only thing for the parent to do is pick him up and get him out of there. If possible, take him home; if it's not possible, find a place to sit down with him.

I have seen some parents who couldn't recognize a genuine loss of self-control and kept demanding that the child behave. It never worked.

Moo

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

I was very pleased to see a small family group at a restaurant do that very thing, Moo. Small girl was getting tearful and demanding about something (not sure what). Dad quietly picked her up and carried her out. Five minutes later they returned; the child was calm and unfussed. I don't know his methods, but I lurve a happy ending! [Smile]

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

From the shaking son story,

quote:
What if the woman, shamed at being called out in public, took it out on the boy at home?

That would be my biggest fear. The second would be worry about how the child felt over hearing his mother criticized in that way. If the comment caused an improvement, it would be worth it, but if she continues to treat him the same way, he now has to deal with the abuse plus the awareness that his mother might be flawed somehow as a parent. I think that can shake a child's sense of security pretty badly. That's his mother, the center of his universe. If there's something wrong with her then the world slips a little bit.

I can still remember the time a hairdresser spoke up for me against my mother and
I hated it.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I was very pleased to see a small family group at a restaurant do that very thing, Moo. Small girl was getting tearful and demanding about something (not sure what). Dad quietly picked her up and carried her out. Five minutes later they returned; the child was calm and unfussed. I don't know his methods, but I lurve a happy ending!

A shot of gin in the bar can work miracles [Big Grin]

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

I would have loved for outside grownups to intervene earlier in my situation than they did. [Frown]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

It can be helpful for a child who already realizes something's wrong to have an outsider confirm the fact. Better than thinking that it's you yourself that's wrong!

We've had several cases like this where we've had ongoing (strained) relationships with parents and children both, and since we couldn't do anything more permanent (long story--see: Division of Family Services), we did the best we could to support the children in staying sane and nonsuicidal, and surviving long enough to escape home and build happier, saner lives for themselves.

A big part of that was assuring them that yes, indeed, there was a real problem, but the problem was not with them personally. It was the situation (read: parent, but we try to be tactful and not embroil the child in emotional conflict any further than they were already) that was crazy, not the child.

They expressed a great sense of relief. Situations can change for the better--even if that means waiting for college age when you have an excuse to escape home. But if children believe that they themselves are bad and evil, causing the abuse themselves and deserving it--well, that's a recipe for suicide.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I was very pleased to see a small family group at a restaurant do that very thing, Moo. Small girl was getting tearful and demanding about something (not sure what). Dad quietly picked her up and carried her out. Five minutes later they returned; the child was calm and unfussed. I don't know his methods, but I lurve a happy ending!
A shot of gin in the bar can work miracles

Pretty crafty slipping a shot of gin to a four year old. [Paranoid]

Posted by AmyBo (# 15040) on :

I try to speak up when I see a kid lose it, giving a little validation to the parent when I can. My favorite was when I saw a little guy in a store throw a big ol' temper tantrum, and I was already tired and cranky, so I walked up and said, "me, too!" - his (presumably) mom relaxed, and he was shocked into silence long enough to get a grip. Sometimes a little patience from strangers helps diffuse it.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It can be helpful for a child who already realizes something's wrong to have an outsider confirm the fact. Better than thinking that it's you yourself that's wrong!

We've had several cases like this where we've had ongoing (strained) relationships with parents and children both, and since we couldn't do anything more permanent (long story--see: Division of Family Services), we did the best we could to support the children in staying sane and nonsuicidal, and surviving long enough to escape home and build happier, saner lives for themselves.

A big part of that was assuring them that yes, indeed, there was a real problem, but the problem was not with them personally. It was the situation (read: parent, but we try to be tactful and not embroil the child in emotional conflict any further than they were already) that was crazy, not the child.

They expressed a great sense of relief. Situations can change for the better--even if that means waiting for college age when you have an excuse to escape home. But if children believe that they themselves are bad and evil, causing the abuse themselves and deserving it--well, that's a recipe for suicide.

I absolutely agree, well said, LC.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I was very pleased to see a small family group at a restaurant do that very thing, Moo. Small girl was getting tearful and demanding about something (not sure what). Dad quietly picked her up and carried her out. Five minutes later they returned; the child was calm and unfussed. I don't know his methods, but I lurve a happy ending!
A shot of gin in the bar can work miracles
Pretty crafty slipping a shot of gin to a four year old.

If you want to waste it on the child for the quiet. Otherwise it really can calm down the father.
[Big Grin]

Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :

I read this story and thought "yeah, I bet that never actually happened." It sounds too much like "I wish I had done this - THAT WOULD HAVE SHOWN THEM." I dunno - maybe I'm overly cynical from having spent too much time around people who magically reconstruct the past to say that they did do what they later realised would have been the witty response.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

This is not AS - but in case it is useful to anyone, I used to play 'losing practice' with my kids. In the nursery car-park, where no-one was around to be troubled by screaming, we would have a race to the car. Half the time, kid would win. Half the time, they would not. The latter half, they'd be sat in the car and told with a big smile that I wasn't getting in to go home until they'd got over it. We even got into a 'well done, winner / better luck next-time, loser' exchange which they still often instinctively call upon, age 6 and 9!

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

[continuing tangent]

Oh yes, I sometimes think that the most useful thing my mother taught me was how to be a good loser.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

It's interesting, and perhaps distinctly human, how delicious a bit of schadenfreude-- even vicarious schadenfreude-- can taste in the moment. But, as we have seen, the aftertaste of all that revenge pie can be a bit harder to digest.

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