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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Anger
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
So I've mentioned on one or two posts how angry I feel at contemporary Christian churches right now and the difficulty I have engaging calmly and rationally in an exploration of things that I once held very dear.
I wonder if any of you feel the same or have felt the same. I'd like to know how to get past this really because I do think there's something deeply important in there somewhere. I just can't see it right now.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
This is what I said on another thread:
quote:
in addition to feeling angry, I also feel rather delicate. Any suggestion that I am wrong (!) and need to come back to GOD inevitably will hurt and is likely to receive the full force of my anger.
After 60 years in the church, fully committed to the teachings about GOD, I suppose it is not surprising that I feel angry (having opened my eyes 'n all). ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I feel that I know what is important about 'church' but it isn't really about GOD, rather a sense of being and doing together.
I am trying to get through my anger but it isn't easy.
I don't feel a sense of loss over no longer doing GOD: whether there is a sense of loss over leaving church, I suspect that's quite another question. Yet, at the moment, I am approaching a 'fullstop' on attending.
I would be interested to know how others have come through their anger.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Anger is part of grief, isn't it? If one has suffered a huge loss then anger is a natural feeling. It passes and/or turns into something more like acceptance.
Myself, I don't feel angry with other people or God - just disappointed. I thought I had the answers and I simply did not!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Potoroo
Shipmate
# 13466
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
It passes and/or turns into something more like acceptance.
Yes. I think it just takes time, and also acceptance of your new self. At least, I am much less angry now with God and church and those Christians who refused to help me when I was struggling with my faith. I am still a bit angry with God, as I feel he didn't look after me, and I wouldn't want to meet those Christians on the street. But they are no longer part of my life, so the anger lessens.
And I've rebuilt my life over the past 6 years, and am a different person now. My priorities are different, my friends are different, my activities are different. So when you are busy and happy*, anger doesn't get much of a look-in.
Oh yes - and I also had spiritual counselling about my anger. I saw a chaplain from my mental health organisation for a few months, as I was alarmed at my ongoing feelings of rage. It was like a spiritual debriefing after coming out of Christianity. The chaplain was very liberal (opposite to my background) and he let me talk all about my anger. He agreed that what happened to me was not right, that the people who should have looked after me didn't, and he helped me feel validated. I lost a lot of the anger through these counselling sessions.
*Of course happiness is relative! But I am happier outside Christianity than I was inside.
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
Posts: 2778 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2008
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Macrina:
Are you able to analyse what you are angry at?
You may detect in this line of questioning, that I am quite keen on CBT/REBT counselling, although I do not think it a panacea.
A central part of the approach is to try and focus on what you are angry about, and whether the anger is reasonable or based on unrealistic expectations?
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The other side is can you express your anger - without hurting anyone?
I suppose my thoughts are that I am not angry, I have been past that. I am very frustrated at the way the church is going, and I am so glad I left, and I no longer had to have an association with the CofE.
Since I left, the Women bishops issue was rejected (the first time), and the questions of homosexuality have become significant. I am really glad that I don't have to justify this. I am more frustrated that the church is presenting a version of Christianity that I do not recognise.
Having said that, I am also free to be angry at the abuse that is in the church - there are those within the church who abuse others in all sorts of ways. Because I no longer feel that I have to protect the church or protect the clergy, I can get angry and express the truth, which is that some people in the church like the power and use it to control others and abuse them.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I think I am mostly angry because I read the gospel and see this wonderful life changing empathy and love and then look at the politically driven campaigning and scheming and just can't reconcile them.
I don't understand how people are so blind to the injustice and harm that the institutions they belong to do to other people.
And every time I point it out I feel like I am yelling into an echo chamber of perfectly self contained, self referential reinforcement.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Macrina:
Dare I suggest you are reading a lot into the Gospels and the rest of the NT, maybe based on seeing what you want.
The gospels have disciples wanting to rain fire down from heaven because a village rejected them, arguing over who is the greatest and how to get the best seats in the Kingdom, not to mention denial and desertion. The NT epistles have a background of self-seeking super apostles, and political factions forming over issues relating to whether one can be a christian without first confirming to Jewish practices.
Need I go on? Yes, you can set up Jesus as an ideal but the church is not totally to be equated to Jesus, more like his rather imperfect disciples.
Yet Jesus never gave up on them. Maybe it was the empathy he had with his followers.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
Yes anteater, that's a very good point actually and has given me pause for thought.
However, it's not so easy to stop feeling angry at what exists even if the standard I set it should perhaps not be quite so high.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
Yes anteater, that's a very good point actually and has given me pause for thought.
However, it's not so easy to stop feeling angry at what exists even if the standard I set it should perhaps not be quite so high.
I suspect for many of us, the right place for the standard is somewhere lower than where we want it to be, but higher than it is. The anger that the church is not better that it is is often justified, but our hopes for it also need to be reduced.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I think anger is appropriate. The church is not what it should be, not even close, be angry about that instead of excusing or justifying or explaining away or pretending not to see what goes on.
Then one has to move beyond the anger, but feeling anger is an important step.
I have found EFT helpful in recovering from anger and resentments about abuse. Gary Craig developed it and his web site has a complete tutorial, free. I use the method regularly.
Also Wayne Dyer and some other "gently spiritual with mere passing mention of an undefined God" teachers talk a lot about forgiveness and how to get there. Lots of Dyer lectures are on Youtube.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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TallPoppy
Shipmate
# 16294
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Posted
"And I've rebuilt my life over the past 6 years, and am a different person now. My priorities are different, my friends are different, my activities are different. So when you are busy and happy*, anger doesn't get much of a look-in."
I am so very pleased to hear that Potoroo. I am very accepting of anger. It deserves space and respect, so it can gently disperse rather than being suppressed!
I don't remember having anger about loss of faith. My faith in God ebbed away so softly and gently, it was almost a surprise to wake up one morning and find that it had gone! I count myself lucky in that respect.
Love and good wishes
TP
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Papaver exaltatum
"Love comforteth like sunshine after rain"
Posts: 2389 | From: Southern England | Registered: Mar 2011
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
There's a major part of me that's angry with myself - for allowing the nasty fickle people to manipulate me, for being so weak to buy into their ways and means and handing over control, for wanting so much from them.
But, there you go. A waste of my life.
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think I have anger for those in churches who manipulate and abuse others, and claim divine right to do so.
I read the Bible, and Acts in particular, and I see a very different story there. Now I don't think that should be our model for a church today - we are in a different world now, we need to find the principles and apply them, not the model. But the current church system is not a model applying those principles - whether we are talking about CofE or the house church or whatever. They are all broken models.
So I am angry that the wonderful freedom, the joy, the empowerment that the Gospel is supposed to be about is crushed and abused into the system we have today. And nobody seems to care.
I suppose this is why I am not wanting to start a new church under different principles. What I want is to find ways of supporting people in finding their own way of engaging with Jesus. I want people to be the wonderful people that God sees them as. I don't want power - although I can see the attraction of it. I don't want to a great spiritual guru - but I do want a chance to tell people there is a new way.
I am angry that the system is corrupt and broken. But those people who could make it better are served far too well under the current system, or a version of it.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I am angry that the system is corrupt and broken. But those people who could make it better are served far too well under the current system, or a version of it.
What makes you think they could do it better if they're happy with things as they are? If the system survives, that's because someone benefits. The people who need to change the system are those who aren't benefiting.
I don't believe that 'the Church' belongs to its powerful members. The Church is everyone who is a believer. This may not be a very popular view, but it has historical credentials.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I am angry that the system is corrupt and broken. But those people who could make it better are served far too well under the current system, or a version of it.
What makes you think they could do it better if they're happy with things as they are? If the system survives, that's because someone benefits. The people who need to change the system are those who aren't benefiting...
Some church professionals fear losing their paycheck/career if the church changes. Some church members fear losing their "warm cozy" (to them) church that is a weekly reunion of their family and friends.
But one thing I was stunned to learn from hanging around the Ship - some people thrive spiritually in the church as it is. Some people love ritual, love symbolism, love the candles and incense and peculiar clothes and liturgical year colors, love being confined to indoors surrounded by windows you can't see through because the colored glass shows you someone being tortured instead of letting you see sky and trees, love saying prayers and singing hymns/songs they had no input to choosing or crafting, love sermons, love hierarchy and ironing altar linens and complaining about lack of volunteers and hate every change we would propose.
Truth is, for some people formal church dims or blocks awareness of God; but those who love church-going will never accept that, they insist "the problem is you, not the church", so they will not tolerate change.
The goal has to become - not find a better church or fix church, but find wholly different ways to "be church" outside the institution.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think I have anger for those in churches who manipulate and abuse others, and claim divine right to do so.... Now I don't think that should be our model for a church today - we are in a different world now, we need to find the principles and apply them, not the model. But the current church system is not a model applying those principles - whether we are talking about CofE or the house church or whatever. They are all broken models.
At the risk of sounding trite, isn't that always going to be the case, as the humans who form and lead the Church are still imperfect beings, however high their ideals may truly be? The vision though is that things will be better in Jesus' renewed creation.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The point about reducing expectations struck a chord with me. There was a two year period in my life when I became agnostic about God and very pissed off with the church. Mostly because I'd seen clearly for the first time the dark manipulative side of church life; the playing with truth and the fostering of guilt. It was a kind of epiphany.
My anger had some significant components which you may relate to.
1. A failure of personal investment.
2. How could I have been so stupid?
3. Disillusion with some people I thought I could trust.
These things produced a strong resolve in me, best expressed by the song by The Who. "Won't get fooled again".
I learned a lot about myself during that time which has stood me in good stead ever since. Much had to do with personal expectations of myself and others. The bitterness subsided as those lessons sank in. What my moving on was like is not appropriate to this experimental board.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I am angry that the system is corrupt and broken. But those people who could make it better are served far too well under the current system, or a version of it.
What makes you think they could do it better if they're happy with things as they are? If the system survives, that's because someone benefits. The people who need to change the system are those who aren't benefiting.
I don't believe that 'the Church' belongs to its powerful members. The Church is everyone who is a believer. This may not be a very popular view, but it has historical credentials.
Those who are in power in the church, whatever that means, are the ones who could reform it, make it different. The Pope is trying to demonstrate this with the Catholic church. They should be working to make the church better that it is, and (Belle Ringer] acknowledging the faults, and trying to include by default, to accept people. That is the only way the church itself can reform, and it is in need of reforming.
And yes, they need to do this acknowledging that their own power, position and sometimes job are probably on the line. That is servanthood.
The alternative is revolution - which is reform driven by those outside. The problem with revolution is that people die - it is not necessarily any better, and the resultant system is not always an improvement. I think The Hunger Games shows this (the final book).
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The goal has to become - not find a better church or fix church, but find wholly different ways to "be church" outside the institution.
For me, it wasn’t so much the church but GOD that was the problem. I know it’s bad theology but it’s the one I grew up with and found hard to discard: if the church is failing, why doesn’t GOD intervene and change it (so the theology goes if you believe in an intervening, miracle-making God)? And GOD doesn’t intervene, even when it is patently obvious that the church is doing evil things. No intervention = no GOD. So then there is no point in trying to reform the church - no GOD, no point to church.
It may not be good theology or good logic, but it worked wonders for me.
Sociological theories offer some help here, it seems to me. But that is not good news for the church which will ‘inevitably’ move towards a more autocratic institution that abuses.
(Otherwise, Belle Ringer, I agree with you! )
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Those who are in power in the church, whatever that means, are the ones who could reform it, make it different. The Pope is trying to demonstrate this with the Catholic church.
The RCC is about priestly power, certainly; but I come from the Nonconformist tradition, where the voice of the people matters. Sometimes they start churches of their own.
As I understand it, Protestantism is about individuals and groups following the light of the Spirit, be that into a new way of having faith or into atheism. It's not about priestly power.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Sometimes they start churches of their own.
Is that not power-seeking?
quote:
As I understand it, Protestantism is about individuals and groups following the light of the Spirit, be that into a new way of having faith or into atheism. It's not about priestly power.
Some would see it as within 'the priesthood of all believers' wouldn't they? In other words personal power?
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Potoroo
Shipmate
# 13466
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
...if the church is failing, why doesn’t GOD intervene and change it (so the theology goes if you believe in an intervening, miracle-making God)? And GOD doesn’t intervene, even when it is patently obvious that the church is doing evil things.
My thinking is along the same lines, Mark Wuntoo. He can, but he doesn't.
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
Posts: 2778 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Sometimes they start churches of their own.
Is that not power-seeking?
It can be, but maybe it's just as often a search for authenticity; why submit to the power of someone whom you believe to be wrong, or just spiritually unhelpful? Does the Holy Spirit (or whatever you'd call it) speak only to the leader, and no one else?
quote:
As I understand it, Protestantism is about individuals and groups following the light of the Spirit, be that into a new way of having faith or into atheism. It's not about priestly power.
quote:
Some would see it as within 'the priesthood of all believers' wouldn't they? In other words personal power?
If all believers are part of a priesthood then they all share the power! What's wrong with that? The alternative, which is that the leaders at the top should concentrate power in their own hands, seems to be asking for bigger problems, IMO.
As for the idea that God should make the church perfect right now, I don't know which denominations could teach that. They may believe in the rightness of their doctrines, but perfection is another matter. Why would the/a church be perfect if individual Christians are not? I don't see the point of that.
[ 03. January 2015, 19:35: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Sometimes they start churches of their own.
Is that not power-seeking?
It can be, but maybe it's just as often a search for authenticity; why submit to the power of someone whom you believe to be wrong, or just spiritually unhelpful? Does the Holy Spirit (or whatever you'd call it) speak only to the leader, and no one else?
IMHO it usually is about power-seeking. I've seen it too often in my city. Some call it 'fission & fusion' (indicating the splitting, failure and then rationalisation of congregations which have failed to 'make a go of it' joining together to start again). Somebody doesn't like the leader and leaves with a splinter group to set up a more pure church. In the end it is about power-seeking - or that's how I see it, perhaps unkindly. Of course, sometimes it works, but even Wesley's church is now in serious decline and will end up in the arms of something else.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The irony is that having just a handful of worldwide denominations would concentrate power in just a few hands, whereas individuals who go off and start their own churches are spreading the power more thinly, no matter how power-hungry they may be.
Some American pastors grumble how hard it is to exercise congregational discipline when disgruntled individuals can just leave and join the church down the road, or even found their own. I can understand how both sides feel, but as a layperson with a schismatic Protestant inheritance I can't side with the clergy on this. It's apparent to me that my spiritual development is my responsibility, since churches vary in how much personal assistance they will give me. Moreover, although Protestant denominations promote their doctrines, they don't seriously teach that salvation occurs through the church. All that being so, I can't see how they can claim that loyalty to their priestly caste or priestly judgement is essential.
As you imply, schismatic denominations (i.e. most of them) may find themselves yielding power after heading into long-term decline and eventually seeking to merge with another group. Making a virtue of necessity, you might say.
[ 03. January 2015, 22:07: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
I think my frustration (anger is too strong, most of the time) comes from the mismatch between alleged democracy and openness, and the reality. I don't know a great deal about the RCC, for example, but that seems to operate on a very different footing - Here are the rules, based on this wisdom as we understand it, this is how things will be done, get on with it. Suggestions of change from the people in the pews aren't really the point. I hope that's not too unkind a paraphrase.
My own church talks the talk about being unafraid of change, and likes to give the idea of there being openness, dialogue, and democracy - and I think this is true in the higher echelons of synods etc, too, but the reality is that it doesn't happen.
Examples relating to 2 DH issues, (since those are uppermost in my mind at the moment): after the first vote on women bishops, our preacher said that he did not agree with the outcome, but that it was partly the fault of we, the congregation, for not standing for synods. He could well have had a point, but how one gets onto synod, indeed how the church is run and decisions made, are not things discussed at all in church.
Secondly, how does one argue back against a sermon one disagrees with? There have been a couple of what I would consider to be anti-gay sermons round our way, and I expect another incoming soon. I have no right of reply to those.
And for all the talk of being unafraid of change, doing stuff differently seems to be.........well, I was going to say almost impossible, but then I don't think I've even bothered to suggest anything for a while. My fault, perhaps.
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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DOEPUBLIC
Shipmate
# 13042
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Posted
Anger is sometimes described as a 'signal' emotion. Showing something has blocked your desires/goals. In my instance it is because of the disconnect between the message and the action.
Something I feel Jesus is angry about as well.
Finding a compassionate community can be more of a bear hunt than a treasure hunt. The bear hunt being more than a children's story.
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