Ship of Fools: The advantages of leaving

Thread: The advantages of leaving Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Potoroo (# 13466) on :

What are the advantages of leaving, for you?

When I say "leaving", I mean leaving / rejecting your faith, God, or the church.

For me it's been 6 years, and I haven't regretted my big decision not to follow God any more. For one thing, I no longer have a crushing sense of guilt at things I do wrong. I am free to be me, not someone who is always striving to be a better, more holy person.

Sundays are my own. My thoughts are my own: for instance, I am not gay, but I always secretly believed it was fine to be gay. However I was always too scared to say so, because I was a "Christian". I really regret this. I wish I had spoken up. Now I can freely support gay rights.

I no longer feel I have to pray about everyone I know, meet, see on the street, or hear about. I no longer have to volunteer for things I don't value or think are right - like teaching Christian Religious Education in primary schools. I was never into ramming Christianity down people's throats, but the church did a lot of it, and you were expected to participate.

I also know a whole lot more secular people, who are not spiritually judgemental. People that Christians wouldn't be interested in talking to unless they came to church and looked like converting. Druggies, LGBT, atheists, Muslims...I like people, so I make friends with them. Before, I would have been feeling guilty about not trying to "convert" them. Now I am free to just like people for who they are.

And one of the biggest advantages has been accepting who I am as a person. I like myself much better now.

What advantages do you see in leaving God / your faith / the church?

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

For me it's been seven or eight years and I've not yet arrived at your point.
I can identify with everything you say - as I said elsewhere, once I made up my mind on the issue I quickly experienced the joy and peace that my evangelical friends believe comes with christian conversion (I don't at all deny that experience - and the psychologist could, I am sure, explain it). This sense of finding new meaning to life has got stronger, I think, as I've become more convinced of my belief.
It has its drawbacks but they are not for this thread.
The advantages of being free from church and free to not believe far outweight any down-side. Now, if I said that to a Christian and their response was 'I thank GOD for your experience' (and nothing more) - that would make me very happy.

Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on :

Poteroo, and this may not be a question suitable for this thread, but why do you belong/still belong to what is more or less basically a Christian Forum?

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

I get the message from the above posts that once again, it's the "Christian" behaviour prescribed by the temporal Christian structures which is a large part of the problem. Frankly, I think there is a world of difference between the tenets of what we/they are supposed to believe, and how that belief "should" be reflected in our behaviour. Though I find that I can live without many of those beliefs, which are in fact required by the temporal church on what can seem a capricious basis.

This is absolutely no criticism of Potoroo's or MW's stance. I'm just trying to describe mine.

I'm what's called a "cradle Catholic." I slid over to the CoE in practice i.e. on Sundays. I hang loose on a lot of the articles of faith. For example, Catholics are supposed to believe that Mary is the "Immaculate Conception" i.e. conceived without original sin. Whether that's true or not IMO makes no difference whatsoever to the idea that Jesus is the Son of God, sent to redeem us. In other words, it's irrelevant.

Practically, I'm back to believing in God. As Madeleine l'Engle once said when asked if she believed with no doubts at all,"I believe, with all sorts of doubts." Truly, I think God can cope with his short-sighted, mistake-prone creation and its vagaries.

As to the behaviours which I and some other posters are so relieved to be rid of, when were we required, for example, to be judgemental? Or does Judge not, lest ye be judged not apply any more? My somewhat tenuous "Christianity" works much better for me if I express it in ways which fit my life and lifestyle than if I tried to distort it to suit some other pattern prescribed by faulty temporal organisations.

This may well leave me open to the statement made by a to my mind over-enthusiastic Evo Street Pastor, that "you don't follow Jesus, and you don't follow the Bible, and I can't have you on my team." So long as God hasn't booted me off His team, who cares? (Though I did at the time.)

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Poteroo, and this may not be a question suitable for this thread, but why do you belong/still belong to what is more or less basically a Christian Forum?

I may as well [Killing me]

Many people on the Ship, I think, have been there.

quote:

Originally posted by jacobsen:
I get the message from the above posts that once again, it's the "Christian" behaviour prescribed by the temporal Christian structures which is a large part of the problem. Frankly, I think there is a world of difference between the tenets of what we/they are supposed to believe, and how that belief "should" be reflected in our behaviour. Though I find that I can live without many of those beliefs, which are in fact required by the temporal church on what can seem a capricious basis.

As you would expect from the title of this thread. And you are right.
But for me the actual giving-up on GOD was about GOD. My questioning began with what I perceived as non-GOD behaviour in the church but quickly led to questions about why GOD did not intervene and do something about it. (Don't want to go there at the moment, just explaining my pilgrimage.)

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

There was a regular comment around the Ship when I was first here, that posters either ended up atheist or orthodox, which seems to hold a grain of truth.

Isn't it the nature of the Ship that the people who post here are questioning because they can't ask the questions or get answers in their own churches? So are not classically convinced, but wondering.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Poteroo, and this may not be a question suitable for this thread, but why do you belong/still belong to what is more or less basically a Christian Forum?

It is a very interesting question that might warrant a new thread. But It should be pointed out that at least one of the Admins here is an atheist, and makes that position very clear.

I would consider the ship a place to discuss matters of broad spiritual import, with a core Christian basis. So all sorts of people with spiritual interest fit here.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I've often thought that a dose of childhood Christianity is very useful for a writer, because you can write about its (rather exotic, these days) influence on your upbringing and/or early adulthood life, while also benefiting from the added plot twist of de-conversion.

If you're an engineer, say, you might have more cause to complain about all the wasted years as a believer, but there's no shortage of ex-Christian novelists who've mined their religious experience for its creative possibilities.

Posted by Signaller (# 17495) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
If you're an engineer, say, you might have more cause to complain about all the wasted years as a believer, but there's no shortage of ex-Christian novelists who've mined their religious experience for its creative possibilities.

What am I missing here? Why shouldn't an engineer be a believer, and what difference could faith or lack of it make to the practice of that profession?

Signaller, CEng MIMechE MIRSE.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

No, I didn't say that engineers can't be Christians. (In fact, I've read that engineers are more likely to be Christians than people in certain other professions.)

I was just saying that in a creative profession a particular religious background can be put to use even if you've lost your faith. But people in other professions (e.g. engineering, or anything else ) may not have an outlet for that experience, except in the form of regret or frustration.

Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
No, I didn't say that engineers can't be Christians. (In fact, I've read that engineers are more likely to be Christians than people in certain other professions.)

I was just saying that in a creative profession a particular religious background can be put to use even if you've lost your faith. But people in other professions (e.g. engineering, or anything else ) may not have an outlet for that experience, except in the form of regret or frustration.

Really? You don't think that any residual ethical thinking might come in useful, whatever profession one might end up with? After all, faith works on many levels, and (hopefully) forms the personality as well as provoking/providing memories.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

SvitlanaV2 - I understand what you are saying, but I do think it is possible to find a way of expressing your faith in pretty much any area. Yes, it may be easier or more obvious in some than others, but that just means it is a challenge.

I say this as a software developer - a role that draws something from the engineering profession. I think I can draw from the idea of beauty to make things that are beautiful, and to understand the importance of humanity to make things that value peoples humanity*.

And yes, it has taken me a long time to find the expression of my faith in my work. It can be difficult and challenging if your work is not one where the spiritual has an obvious place.

*This is the starting point for my PhD, so it CAN be done.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Believers will obviously make use of their faith in all aspects of their lives, engineers as much as anyone else. (In fact, I've read that engineers are more likely to be Christians than some other professions).

However, I was referring to people who've abandoned their faith. Ex-Christians who are engaged in creative work in the arts, particularly writers, seem to find religion something useful to explore in their work, but the net is full of people, presumably in other professions, who grumble about the wasted years spent being dragged to church, or in believing things that they now hold to be untrue. I've come across quite a few novelists in particular who are no longer Christians but still find that faith provides them with useful material.

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

tangent alert.....

SC - this is the starting point - and you ALREADY KNOW it CAN be done? [Biased]

Posted by Potoroo (# 13466) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Poteroo, and this may not be a question suitable for this thread, but why do you belong/still belong to what is more or less basically a Christian Forum?

I think this question has already been partially answered, in that the Ship includes atheists, Buddhists, and all sorts.

But to answer fully, I joined the Ship when I was still struggling with my faith, and got to know and like people, especially in the chat room. Then I joined Waving not Drowning, the Ship's mental health board, and get a lot out of it. Sometime after that I made my decision to leave Christianity, but wanted to stay on board the Ship as I have good friends here. They know about my lack of religion and are fine with it.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
tangent alert.....

SC - this is the starting point - and you ALREADY KNOW it CAN be done?

I should be submitting my thesis in the next few months, so I hope I have got to the end of my arguments by now. 8 years says it can be done.

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Poteroo, and this may not be a question suitable for this thread, but why do you belong/still belong to what is more or less basically a Christian Forum?

In my case I joined as a Christian, but have continued as an ex-Christian.

Part of the reason is simply that it is mildly addictive.

Another reason is (I may have mentioned on another thread on this Board) is that I am an atheist who still attends church as a choir member. But this almost never comes up in conversation; in fact most of the people there have never brought up why, for example, I never take communion. So the Ship is the opportunity for the debate/argument I don't get elsewhere. That probably also explains the edgy nature of many of my posts here.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Apologies for repeating my point about Christian engineers in almost the same words in two posts above.

Regarding the thread topic, sometimes I wonder what I'd gain if I ceased to be a Christian. I live, work and worship in several very Muslim areas, and in this context I'd be part of a wider and more representative community, and possibly a more structured way of life, if I left Christianity for Islam.

As for leaving Christianity for atheism or indifference, this is sometimes represented as a way of achieving personal liberation; people from strict Christian backgrounds sometimes talk about becoming free to have more modern sexual relationships, or to explore ideas and lifestyles that were otherwise off limits.

In my case, I don't think that either of these choices would be helpful from a practical or psychological (rather than a spiritual) point of view, but I can see that others are coming from a different place, so it wouldn't be the same for them.

[ 28. December 2014, 18:16: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Potoroo:
What are the advantages of leaving, for you?

When I say "leaving", I mean leaving / rejecting your faith, God, or the church.

...I am free to be me...

Sundays are my own...

I also know a whole lot more secular people...

And one of the biggest advantages has been accepting who I am as a person. I like myself much better now.

What advantages do you see in leaving God / your faith / the church?

I have not (usually) attended the inward-focused "only Christians can be friends" churches you seem to describe, but if you have three slots a week free and church wants all three (an evening rehearsal, a committee meeting, and Sunday morning) every week of the year, that leaves no time to get acquainted with neighbors or develop personal friendships or grow a talent or pursue a hobby.

For decades the only people who have invited me to join them for holidays or to go to a movie or suggest we get together for an evening of art or music are atheists or "spiritual but not religious" non church-goers. Obviously I need more of that kind of person in my life!

Some of the benefits you list are what I've started pursuing - friendships of mutual enjoyment and shared activities, wide variety of conversations and interests, freedom / encouragement to be the person God designed me to become.

I just now dropped out of praise band which frees up both Sunday mornings and Wednesday evenings, that was a lot of time to put into a group I found draining. Instead, I and a guy I met are working on developing a repertoire of Celtic folk songs to do at open mics, an environment that feeds us with friendship and encouragement instead of demands and criticism.

Church is soul-destructive for me. I'm switching focus to the vibrant world outside church where I can develop more and better friendships, explore a wider range of activities, develop and use my talents, and enjoy the "abundant life" God offers that church somehow closes me off from.

Posted by Beenster (# 242) on :

I can breathe!!!! I'm no longer trying to be something I'm not, living a lie in struggling to fit in to a framework that doesn't work for me. I feel I'm being truer to myself and my god.

And by my god, I've discovered a spirit or a creator that is far greater than the Christian god. Which is exciting beyond words.

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