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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The way I see it
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Not trying to convert anyone here, just trying to understand why people have left the church.
It seems to me, the biggest complain is the rigidity of the evangelical/fundamentalist church. "You have to live this way, or you are not Christian."
Next is church burn out--being so overly committed that one has no time for himself/herself--and then have the rug pulled out from under you by getting fired.
Third seems to be some life crisis in which you could not find an satisfactory answer from the church.
I have not seen one comment that there was a cognitive dissonence between the doctrines of the church and the teachings of science (ie a seven day creation, bs billions of years of cosmic evolution);
It seems to me people who come from a fundadmentalist background need to realize there are other expressions of the church which do not paint everything as black and white. They are quite comfortable with the grey.
I have experienced burn out a number of times, I am one of those compuslive people. The church as screwed me several times--but I realize it is not the church I worship.
One thing I have found when people are experienceing life crisies is not to give the pat answers church people try to give. I find the Book of Job a very good resource for me when I experience these struggles.
Dealing with science vs religion, I understand Scriptures were written in a pre scientific age. They reflect the knowledge of their day, but Scriptures were never intended to to be a scientific--or for that matter, a historical account of everything.
I certainly have a lot of questions and doubts myself, but I am like Kierkegaard here. Doubt is not the enemy of faith.
Again, not trying to convert, just trying to understand.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Potoroo
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# 13466
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Posted
Gramps49: it is true, I started out with a fundamentalist church background, although I ended up much more liberal.
You will not see a comment about cognitive dissonance between science and religion from me. Too intellectual! I am very relational - for me it is about relationships. Relationship with God, and with people. I suppose this could fall under your "life crisis" category.
You have not tried to convert, but you have given advice that we hadn't asked for. e.g. "...people who come from a fundamentalist background need to realise..." But when you are deep inside a situation, do you realise things? I find that attitude very arrogant. I have not asked for your advice about my experiences as a Christian.
Also, if you had quoted the Book of Job to me during my life crisis, I would have hit you over the head with it. (Well, I would have liked to.) For me, it comes under the "pat answers" you mentioned.
[ 28. December 2014, 03:52: Message edited by: Potoroo ]
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
Posts: 2778 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Potoroo:
You have not tried to convert, but you have given advice that we hadn't asked for. e.g. "...people who come from a fundamentalist background need to realise..." But when you are deep inside a situation, do you realise things? I find that attitude very arrogant. I have not asked for your advice about my experiences as a Christian.
No need to take it personally, though, I'd say -- you weren't named, and you're hardly the only one who came out of a fundamentalist background around here. I did too, and it would have helped me tremendously to know more about other forms of Christianity when I was struggling with the black and white faith I grew up with.
When people are deep inside things, no, they don't generally have a lot of perspective about them. But they could listen to others who do. It would have been very helpful to me if, when I was going through my crisis of faith, someone had said that the rigid code I knew and no faith at all were not the only options.
Maybe I still would have needed to leave Christianity altogether for almost a decade before returning via a different door, but it's also very possible that someone with a different perspective could have helped me, and if they had, and if I had not been in the midst of dismantling everything I had ever believed and believed in when a big life crisis hit me, maybe I wouldn't have ended up in a horrible depression and maybe I'd have been able to make a couple of important choices that might to this day have improved my life.
Maybe. No way to know now. But I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss what someone says because you feel unhappy about it.
quote:
Also, if you had quoted the Book of Job to me during my life crisis, I would have hit you over the head with it. (Well, I would have liked to.) For me, it comes under the "pat answers" you mentioned.
Well, that's you. Others' mileage may vary. Mine certainly did.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Yeah, I'd have hit you over the head with Job, too. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Frankly, I prefer Ecclesiastes. Only book that speaks sense. To me.
You are allowed to differ in your preferences. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
It seems to me, the biggest complain is the rigidity of the evangelical/fundamentalist church. "You have to live this way, or you are not Christian."
TBH, while the evangelical end of the spectrum comes under most scrutiny, there is as much rigidity in all forms of faith - I have posted on my blog a discussion of "Progressive Christianity", which seems to be a more liberal version of the same rigid scheme.
For me, the problem is that churches of whatever brand want people to conform to their particular set of rules. Whereas I want to question their position whatever - I feel that it is incumbent on my to question. The dissonance between science and faith is shown not in a rejection of scientific findings, but in the rejection of the scientific method to church teachings - the method of questioning all things, of constantly seeking truth.
Gramps49 - I do understand your questioning. But please don't assume that these basic arguments have not been worked through by most people who have left the church or their faith already. A rejection of faith is not something that most people do lightly.
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
quote:
For me, the problem is that churches of whatever brand want people to conform to their particular set of rules. Whereas I want to question their position whatever - I feel that it is incumbent on my to question. The dissonance between science and faith is shown not in a rejection of scientific findings, but in the rejection of the scientific method to church teachings - the method of questioning all things, of constantly seeking truth.
This is my problem. Wish I'd thought of the word 'dissonance'! But I'm gradually working through it. Whether I will come down on the side of God or on Science, who knows? But meanwhile, I attend two church groups, all composed of really lovely ladies, who affirm my identity and reason to be me. When, as they do, the evo teachings come up, I either say out loud I don't have to believe that to be a Christian, or I say it to myself.
The first makes for some interesting discussions!
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Several thoughts come to mind as I have read through the replies.
Yes, I would agree there are examples of where even the liberal side of the church can be as rigid as the fundamentalist side.
Second, when I was talking about Job I only said it has worked for me and no one else. Someone mentioned Ecclesiastis. To each their own.
Third, the scientific study of religion is rather difficult. If you are referring to emperical scientific studym as in physics, it does not really work. Social scientists will tell you religion is more contextual and, therefore, is rather fuzzy.
Fourth, I really appreciate the point that people who have walked away have not lightly done so.
If I could sum up what I have seen here in a couple of words, it would be "Burn Out." One's past faith is burned out for various reasons: rigidity, lack of appreciation, life crisies, dissonance in one form or other.
Thank you for your replies.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Autenrieth Road
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# 10509
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Posted
I vehemently reject the applicability of "burn out" to explaining or understanding what has happened. I've experienced burn out (from church volunteer activities as it happens), and the experience was nothing like the experience of my loss of faith. Calling a loss of faith "burn out" applies a sickness model to what we have experienced: if only we would heal from our burn out, we could joyfully go back to our previous faith. That's not at all what I hear in people's accounts of their change in faith. For me, my change in faith was because Christianity stopped making sense.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Actually yes, I'm going to agree with Autenrieth Road. I've done both, burnt out from too much church activity and lost faith and they are different.
When I burnt out I knew I'd burnt out and took time to have some space and time to recover. That wasn't loss of faith, that was very deliberately giving me space, but also the people who were now covering my roles time to make them their own and not have me around making that difficult.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Burn out is different. I didn't burn out from the church - I realised that I was spending my time supporting the church activities, not the "Kingdom of God".
Gramps49 - please can you stop assigning other peoples experiences to simplistic ideas. It is quite offensive. The process of leaving is, from what I have read from others here, complex, thoughtful, difficult.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I can give you cognitive dissonance. Trying to believe at the same time that God was merciful and just and was going to burn most of my family and friends in an eternal hell of conscious torment. Trying to believe again in a God of mercy and love, and reading how he allegedly told Joshua to commit mass murder. Indeed, the entire cognitive dissonance of trying to believe that the Bible is the Word of a good God when it contains so much divinely mandated evil.
And the various convoluted mind-games I've been offered to try to resolve these dissonances have been about as convincing as a Britain First racial harmony pamphlet.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
Personally I struggle to see the usefulness of the book of Job in demonstrating that our suffering has meaning and purpose. Isn't the whole book basically about how the Devil is given a free run by God so God can win a bet? Not cool.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
quote:
Personally I struggle to see the usefulness of the book of Job in demonstrating that our suffering has meaning and purpose. Isn't the whole book basically about how the Devil is given a free run by God so God can win a bet? Not cool.
That's why I prefer Ecclesiastes, if I have to find a book I can identify with. At least the writer thinks there is no point in anything!
Which is where I am at. Why suffering, why all the s***, why anything? We are here, so what?
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
Personally I struggle to see the usefulness of the book of Job in demonstrating that our suffering has meaning and purpose. Isn't the whole book basically about how the Devil is given a free run by God so God can win a bet? Not cool.
This is partly why I started this thread on Theodicy - the theology of suffering - because I find that the Job approach doesn't work for me.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
Thanks Shroedinger's Cat - I'm pretty sure I chipped in there with my own problems around the inadequacies of the problem of evil. That's a big part of it for me and I think it probably qualifies under Gramps49's category of dichotomy between Christian Doctrine and the world as it is.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
Personally I struggle to see the usefulness of the book of Job in demonstrating that our suffering has meaning and purpose. Isn't the whole book basically about how the Devil is given a free run by God so God can win a bet? Not cool.
I absolutely hate the bet...not cool at all but I figure that it's just a plot device used by the writer, works for me as a means to illustrate the essential truth of the book. The part of Job that I like is the fact that Job holds onto his theology (for want of a better word) and God despite the hideous people offering their "comfort". Finally God does step in to tell those who are blaming Job for his misfortunes, that they are talking bollocks "Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge?" (Job 38:1)
I often think of that verse when faith healers are saying God wants to heal you or nice Christian folk sprout rubbish, like God chose somebody very special to bear this burden or God gave you this illness, disease etc (pfft why didn't he give me a pony instead). Ultimately IMO we can't know the full story of suffering and why bad things happen to good people and Job doesn't provide me with comfort in terms of easing suffering but it sure as hell helps me to know that it isn't God speaking when Christians pray that people with depression should turn back to God or that sick people have unresolved sin or are oppressed by satan or that you'd be healed if you just have enough faith. That is bollocks and the book of Job explicitly tells us so.
[ 30. December 2014, 21:58: Message edited by: Evangeline ]
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Pre-cambrian
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# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I have not seen one comment that there was a cognitive dissonence between the doctrines of the church and the teachings of science (ie a seven day creation, bs billions of years of cosmic evolution);
You need to re-read the "Straws" thread, because you will find there that I said that the age and scale of the universe are precisely the basis of my atheism.
I would also agree with those others who have responded that wrapping up people's various reasons as "burn-out" is dismissive. I have seen this sort of comment before and it makes me wonder whether for some Christians it is more a case that it is less threatening to them if they can convince themselves that Christians don't really turn into atheists?
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Coming from a position of negligible faith to one of no faith, I'm not a target for taxonomy of faith failure or whatever Gramps49 is trying to do.
I will point out there are different types of burn out. A house is burned out and reduced to charcoal ruins. A steel plant takes molten iron and burns out the impurities with oxygen leaving strong pure steel. I suspect you imply the former, that those who have left faith are just trying to figure out a way to return to it. Some do, others feel they have transcended it. But that's their decision, and not yours to categorize.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I think for me it's not losing my faith. I can't ever really say I had a definite 'faith' that I intellectually wanted to defend. Christianity was simply what I had and I found enough in the social message of the gospel to want to stay and 'believe'. I was Orthodox and did and still do find the history and doctrine of Christianity to be deeply interesting so I think that too kept me in Churches.
I ran into serious problems once I started thinking about the implications of some of these doctrines and dogmas and trying to apply them to the world (both physical and spiritual) and finding they either didn't fit or did active harm.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I can give you cognitive dissonance. Trying to believe at the same time that God was merciful and just and was going to burn most of my family and friends in an eternal hell of conscious torment. Trying to believe again in a God of mercy and love, and reading how he allegedly told Joshua to commit mass murder. Indeed, the entire cognitive dissonance of trying to believe that the Bible is the Word of a good God when it contains so much divinely mandated evil.
And the various convoluted mind-games I've been offered to try to resolve these dissonances have been about as convincing as a Britain First racial harmony pamphlet.
Exactly. I had no particular problem living within the strictures of my evangelical church. My commitments to the church were light, and I was not having a life crisis.
I walked away because I could no longer cope with the lack of internal consistency in what I was being taught: not the dissonance between science and religion, but the dissonance between a picture of a loving God and any number of hateful, but notionally Godly, actions. I also walked away from the pretence that faith is easy, that holding this dissonance in your head day to day was all just fine. For me, it wasn't fine at all.
I don't think I fit into the picture you draw at all, Gramps49.
Best wishes,
Rachel.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
One thing that happened to me, which maybe I'll start a new thread on, is that I got interested in other religions, which seemed to contain important and interesting ideas and practices. I started doing Zen meditation first, and through that found out about some Buddhist ideas; and then one of my good friends became a Sufi, so that led to interesting discussions, and then a Hindu friend, and so on.
For a long while, there didn't seem to be any tension between being a Christian and being interested in other stuff, but I suppose gradually this syncretic approach in me began to dominate, and then the exclusive claims of any religion began to seem very doubtful to me. So I still like Christian symbols and stories, but I like those in other religions also.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
I reject the burn out scenario.
I simply stopped believing. I say simply, it wasn't simple. It was frightening, disorientating, and bewildering. Not just for me but for my friends - the friendship circles no longer existed as they had done as I was now not in the same wavelength. But, it was a going to bed one evening and waking up the next. I prayed to a god I didn't believe in, read the bible, on and on and on.
And then one day I realised I didn't need to try any more, that I wasn't called to be part of the elect or some sort of guff and I ceased trying and that was fantastic.
To lose your structure is hideous. I thought for a long time I was simply hell bound as a consequence, I'm sure others still think I'm hell bound. Who cares, not me.
It's very possible to lose your faith and to move away. I wish the church had aided that passage (although that would have been really contrary to the psyche).
One thing I found, in the process of moving away, there were a number of times when I thought I was back in the fold - and those times became fewer and further afield. People treated me so differently along the way. It never felt authentic. False friendship has a lot to answer for and I would love to find and write to those who offered me such false friendship along the way.
edited to add - well - it felt real at the time - but it wasn't real, and I should have known such people wouldn't be interested in little old me. But I trusted people who offered me the hand of friendship and it was only to get me back in the fold again.
[ 02. January 2015, 20:11: Message edited by: Beenster ]
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
It seems to me, the biggest complain is the rigidity of the evangelical/fundamentalist church...
Next is church burn out--being so overly committed that one has no time for himself/herself...
Third seems to be some life crisis...
I have not seen one comment that there was a cognitive dissonence between the doctrines of the church and the teachings of science
For me the word dissonance is a good one, but not the specific cognitive dissonance you point to.
A broader dissonance between what church says it is and what it actually is. between who the Bible says God is and who the church says God is. Between who Jesus says we are to be and who the church tells us to be.
Church calls itself a community "family" who love and care for each other; in fact, other than for a few highly visible leaders, out of sight is out of mind. A real (extended) family, you know if cousin Joe isn't there. Church, no one notices that Jane has been missing for three weeks. Why can't we be honest that a church is just a collection of people with a similar interest, like any club?
Church says "we believe the Bible" and then explains away huge chunks of it. All denominations do this. I'm not talking about whether Adam & Eve or Jonah & the whale are myth or real, I'm talking about dismissing whatever Jesus said as "doesn't apply to us today"(liberals use "impractical in real life" a lot if they can't come up with something more creative like camels walking thru a narrow gate on their knees).
Jesus is constantly expecting people to be active, get out there and develop and use your talents, spread the good news, while you are at it heal the sick etc. Church says sit. Sit in Bible study, sit in prayer, sit in committee meetings.
Dissonance is what causes the burnout. Doing stuff you love and that develops your talents and serves a purpose you value and fulfills you is energizing. Doing stuff that makes little sense drains you. And then the churches say doing the stuff that just drains you is your spiritual duty, proving their god disdains humanity, values only the bloodless institution.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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DOEPUBLIC
Shipmate
# 13042
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Posted
IMO the church has left me. Without virtual support I have no genuine resonant contact.
Every bridge burnt on the church side, by inappropriate and unsafe responses. If you are unable to maintain your flame, the hope is/was others will, or God himself.
I am cold and wonder whether "Father God, why have forsaken me" is my genuine position or an empty phrase I'd associate with a world, I feel in reality disconnected from.
If burnt out, then because I have no flame holder to stand by me. No meeting where I am. Always where they expect me to be. The women at the well comes to mind, except I stand by the well alone at present.
A resonant position being the reality of seeing an empty space on the gravestone, for my name, next to my partner's. Me unrestful til I fill the space and daily losing the faith we shared. Together forever in Him, at present concluding as an empty hope.
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