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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: December Book Group: A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
If you haven't a print copy knocking about, available free in Kindle.
Firenze
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
Also free on Nook.
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
I have a gorgeous hardback edition (with stunning drawings) that I bought some 20 years ago. I bring it out each year as part of my Christmas decorations and display it to good effect.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
It's also available for free at Project Gutenberg.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
I've picked up a library copy and will join in. You know, I'm uncertain if I've ever read this. Perhaps at school back in the mists of time!
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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basso
Ship’s Crypt Keeper
# 4228
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Posted
I'll reread this with you.
When I was growing up we had a much-treasured illustrated copy. My parents read aloud to us (Little Women, Treasure Island, and many more), and Christmas Carol was an annual favorite.
I was about nine years old when my father passed me the book and told me that it was my turn to read. A milestone in my life!
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I went to a lecture this evening at the Smithsonian Institution about the American influence on The Christmas Carol. (Actually there was not much of one, but it was an interesting lecture anyway.)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
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Posted
Almost time for my annual re-read anyway, so can I join in?
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Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Glad to see so many re-reading, as that is the basis of one of my questions. I will post these by the middle of next week, as I believe there's something on the following week which might take up a bit of time.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Love this book and hope to be able to join in.
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I keep on walking past a copy on our Christmas display at work and think I must re-read that. I'll try to get round to it before that event due the week after next.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
A few starting points for discussion:
If you are re-reading A Christmas Carol, what strikes you differently about the book from when you first read it?
It has been said that Dickens 'invented Christmas' as we know it now. Do you agree?
G K Chesterton wrote: In fighting for Christmas he was fighting for the old European festival. Pagan and Christian, for that trinity of eating, drinking and praying ... for the holy day which is really a holiday...he looked on the living Middle Ages, on a piece of the old uproarious superstition still unbroken; and he hailed it like a new religion. What sort of Christianity do you see in A Christmas Carol?
The book evokes powerful and primary sensations eg physical cold, childhood abandonment, hunger, sexual attraction, grief. Is it these as much, or more, than the story of a reformed miser, which give it its power?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
If you are re-reading A Christmas Carol, what strikes you differently about the book from when you first read it?
I had recognized the humor at the start of the tale in my prior readings, but this time through I was thinking more about it. Dickens throws in a LOT of humorous side-comments at first, such as the discussion of why doornails should be considered the standard for "dead." It occurred to me this time that he was creating a feeling as if this were a story being told to you at fireside. You can easily imagine somebody whose turn it is to tell a ghost story to start off setting the scene and tossing off wry comments as he gets into the story. It isn't a story in a book--it is a story being told to you.
Another thing I noticed is that the story is broken into "staves" rather than chapters. What's up with that? I know "stave" can be a term for a stanza in a poem or song, but the connection with this story puzzles me. Anybody have an idea?
quote:
It has been said that Dickens 'invented Christmas' as we know it now. Do you agree?
"Invented"? I would go along with "restore" or "saved" the celebration of Christmas, but I can't go so far as to say he invented it. The story describes Christmas celebrations and customs that presumably did exist at one time, even if they had fallen out of favor by Dickens' time. He may have restored them to the public consciousness, but he didn't invent them.
quote:
G K Chesterton wrote: In fighting for Christmas he was fighting for the old European festival. Pagan and Christian, for that trinity of eating, drinking and praying ... for the holy day which is really a holiday...he looked on the living Middle Ages, on a piece of the old uproarious superstition still unbroken; and he hailed it like a new religion. What sort of Christianity do you see in A Christmas Carol?
The right sort. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Clearly there is a respect for Christianity reflected in the story, particularly when Tiny Tim expresses why it is good that others can see him at church--for it might please them to be reminded of the one who made the lame to walk and the blind to see. But I don't see the story as primarily trying to urge everybody to go to church on Christmas. It is not a story about religion or faith in God. Rather, it is a story of loving your fellow human beings. Mankind should be our business!
quote:
The book evokes powerful and primary sensations eg physical cold, childhood abandonment, hunger, sexual attraction, grief. Is it these as much, or more, than the story of a reformed miser, which give it its power?
Although he is not the narrator, for the most part the story is told from the view of old Eb Scrooge. We see what he sees. Certainly there is those powerful evocations--but they are powerful because we can see their effect on Scrooge. Scrooge liked cold, at the start, because he was a cold man. By the end of the story he is a warmer man, and calling for more coal for the fire.
More thoughts, but I have to go now. The boss thinks he is paying me to work for him. Never a ghost around when you need one.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Another thing I noticed is that the story is broken into "staves" rather than chapters. What's up with that? I know "stave" can be a term for a stanza in a poem or song, but the connection with this story puzzles me. Anybody have an idea?
Because it's A Christmas CAROL?
[ 17. December 2014, 13:16: Message edited by: Pigwidgeon ]
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
My Smithsonian lecturer pointed out that Scrooge's three supernatural Ghosts are preceded and prefigured by three earthly visitors in the first chapter. His nephew Ned, the two 'portly gentlemen' collecting for charity, and Bob Cratchit represent the three areas of Christmas celebration that Scrooge is neglecting: the family, the poor, and the employees.
And when the Ghosts appear they address these issues. Scrooge goes with Christmas Past to his first job with old Fezziwig, who insisted that all his staff party hearty. The visit to the Cratchit family shows him how a family celebrates -- anxiously awaiting Father, is the sister coming? Now we're all here we can eat! And of course the Future visit shows you what happens when you neglect the poor.
I was sufficiently inspired by this that I made Smoking Bishop the other evening, for our Bible study. It was a lively meeting, as you might imagine.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Another thing I noticed is that the story is broken into "staves" rather than chapters. What's up with that? I know "stave" can be a term for a stanza in a poem or song, but the connection with this story puzzles me. Anybody have an idea?
Because it's A Christmas CAROL?
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Yes, it does seem rather obvious when you phrase it like that! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Thanks!
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
If you are re-reading A Christmas Carol, what strikes you differently about the book from when you first read it?
I first read this as a child and have re-read it many times over the years. It's a book that bears re-reading. As an adult I read it less quickly and notice more of the "throwaway" remarks and the descriptions. What strikes me immediately is that Scrooge comes across as a man who has shut off from emotions because they hurt too much. I feel a lot more sympathy for him now than I used to.
quote:
It has been said that Dickens 'invented Christmas' as we know it now. Do you agree?
If Dickens was describing the festivities as he already knew them, then I don’t think that can be true. Christmas features several times in his writings - "A Christmas Carol", "The Pickwick Papers" and a whole collection of short stories and some of the descriptions are warming and lovely - I can't believe that they were all just wishful thinking and imagination.
quote:
What sort of Christianity do you see in A Christmas Carol?
It’s a deeply moral tale: the story of redemption. Scrooge has to descend into his own personal hell and face his demons before he can experience freedom and joy in life. It's the harrowing of Hell, and the rebirth at Christmas. I loathe the Tiny Tim character, though – he comes across as a horrid little prig.
quote:
The book evokes powerful and primary sensations eg physical cold, childhood abandonment, hunger, sexual attraction, grief. Is it these as much, or more, than the story of a reformed miser, which give it its power?
It really is hard to put into words what the attraction of this story is but attraction it does hold - there have been quite a few film versions of it so it's clearly saying something to a wide range of people. Probably different people find different things in it. It is actually a story that works on more than one level - as a simple traditional tale where the wicked miser is forced by supernatural means to repent, or as a man who needs to come to terms with his past in order to have a future, or as a moral tale where Scrooge discovers that redemption is possible and not too late.
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
If you are re-reading A Christmas Carol, what strikes you differently about the book from when you first read it?
- If I read it previously it was long enough ago to have forgotten it. What struck me was the humour and how much I enjoyed the story as I've found other Dickens novels hard going.
It has been said that Dickens 'invented Christmas' as we know it now. Do you agree?
- Well, in the book the focus was on spending the day with family, eating and drinking well and playing games. Sounds just how I spend it! But I have no knowledge of how Christmas was generally celebrated before he wrote this book.
G K Chesterton wrote: In fighting for Christmas he was fighting for the old European festival. Pagan and Christian, for that trinity of eating, drinking and praying ... for the holy day which is really a holiday...he looked on the living Middle Ages, on a piece of the old uproarious superstition still unbroken; and he hailed it like a new religion. What sort of Christianity do you see in A Christmas Carol?
- I see generosity of spirit, sharing what you have and doing to others as you would have them do to you.
The book evokes powerful and primary sensations eg physical cold, childhood abandonment, hunger, sexual attraction, grief. Is it these as much, or more, than the story of a reformed miser, which give it its power?
- I think the attraction of the story is how supernatural experiences transform Scrooge to the extent that the future that might have happened didn't .
It's to the story's credit that it has been performed in different ways successfully. I love the Muppets' version!
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I have just finished my book and need something else to read so I’ll join in. I feel like I’ve read it before, but I’m not sure. I think it might have been a dumbed-down for kiddies version. Anyways, I remember the pictures better than the text.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
If you are re-reading A Christmas Carol, what strikes you differently about the book from when you first read it?
I think it was the social message ‘Are there not prisons, are there not workhouses’ really struck home this time.
It has been said that Dickens 'invented Christmas' as we know it now. Do you agree?
I don’t know enough about Nineteenth Century social customs, but certainly in the novels of Jane Austen Christmas doesn’t get much of a look in, though I remember the postman in Elizabeth Gaskell’s ‘Cranford’ being given food and drink in each house he visited on Christmas morning.
G K Chesterton wrote: In fighting for Christmas he was fighting for the old European festival. Pagan and Christian, for that trinity of eating, drinking and praying ... for the holy day which is really a holiday...he looked on the living Middle Ages, on a piece of the old uproarious superstition still unbroken; and he hailed it like a new religion. What sort of Christianity do you see in A Christmas Carol?
There is a strong social message about supporting the poor, but actual organized religion isn’t much referred to. It’s interesting that only Bob Cratchit and Tiny Tim go to church on Christmas morning, the rest of the family are too busy getting the dinner ready.
The book evokes powerful and primary sensations eg physical cold, childhood abandonment, hunger, sexual attraction, grief. Is it these as much, or more, than the story of a reformed miser, which give it its power?
I live in a Victorian cottage, a well-insulated, centrally heated one, but while reading this book I was complaining of feeling cold, despiter the rest of the family telling me it was warm. This I think was the power of the writing, and certainly the emotions in the book were which struck me more than the reformation, which seemed to happen quite easily – I know people who wouldn’t change their way of thinking no matter how many ghosts turned up.
I thought it was interesting that, because it is such a short book, the background to characters and scenes is very minimal, unlike a lot of Dickens other works. I liked the space it gave me to think about what the background might be and what would happen next – did Toper actually marry the sister, who was Fan’s husband etc etc.
I really enjoyed it, and have made a vow that I shall re-read it every Christmas from now on!
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
It's a bit of a giveaway, I think, that when the nephew turns up and invites Scrooge to dinner, Scrooge says he'll see him in hell first and then demands to know why he got married. "Because I fell in love", says the nephew, at which point Scrooge basically throws him out of the office. Love hurts, and that's one of the keynotes of the novel. But the first indication that Scrooge isn't beyond hope is when the Ghost of Christmas Past shows him scenes from his boyhood: Scrooge still has the capacity to fully relive the feelings they evoked at the time. Not partially, but fully.
As a young man, Scrooge turned to what was tangible (possibly because he hadn't had a happy home life and his beloved sister had died), and builds up wealth, and pursues that because he knows where he is with money. His unnamed fiancee breaks off their engagement on the grounds he's getting too materialistic, and that is probably the psychological turning point for him. Love hurts, money doesn't. But somewhere in there, underneath, he is still capable of being the person he should have been all along.
Marley, on the other hand, clearly wasn't. He went his own way, the spirits didn't appear to him during his lifetime, he died as he had lived. There was no redemption for him.
Here's an image from the BBC website which I liked a lot and which fits in nicely with the thread. The scene where Scrooge is given the Milk of Human Kindness by the Spirit of Christmas Present (which is a sort of Christmas present to him in itself) is one of my favourite scenes. It is the essence of the novel: material things are all very well, but they are a means to an end, not the end in themselves.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
We don't know about Jacob Marley. Ghosts may have appeared to him and he ignored them. Alternatively, he may be (like the Solid People in CS Lewis's The Great Divorce) working off his sentence by coming back and dramatically warning people who could do with it. I rather like the idea of Jake, in the Heavenly green room, looking over the props. "Nah, for Ebenezer I need the chains. I wanna clank, Gabriel. Can you get me some more money boxes onto the end of this one? And some of that zombie makeup..."
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Hurrah! A book by Dickens you can read in less than a week! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
My thoughts: in some ways the Christmassy/Christian elements of the book don’t seem to be that linked to me. “Christian” values are the ones neglected by Marley: goodness, mercy, forbearance and all the rest. Going to church doesn’t seem to be so important. OTOH, the Christmassiness is summed up by the Spirit of Christmas Present, who is a more pagan type of character. I’m not sure how much the two elements overlap.
I think there’s something quite contradictory about the way the Spirit of Christmas present shows *everyone* full of good cheer, no matter how poor they are, but Ignorance and Want are also a reality.
The writing is Dickens doing what he does best, I think: great accumulations of adjectives that build an atmosphere that carries the reader along. At the same time, I think there is a kind of atmosphere that goes with the character himself. Scrooge is more than a cardboard miser; he’s also a poor little child that got left at school when everyone else went home ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif) .
Random thought that I had - if Scrooge only bought the prize turkey on Christmas morning, how the blazes long would it have taken to cook it? I think the Cratchits must have eaten rather late
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Random thought that I had - if Scrooge only bought the prize turkey on Christmas morning, how the blazes long would it have taken to cook it? I think the Cratchits must have eaten rather late
John Sutherland (I think) has written one of his literary riffs on this. He reckons the reason Bob Cratchit was 18 minutes late on Boxing Day was that they didn't eat Christmas dinner until about 3 in the morning.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Random thought that I had - if Scrooge only bought the prize turkey on Christmas morning, how the blazes long would it have taken to cook it? I think the Cratchits must have eaten rather late
Oh, I imagine Mrs Cratchit took one look at it and thought "Right, I'll roast this bit, boil that piece, grill some of this, make a curry with that, soup with the bones, and if anyone complains, they're getting sandwiches."
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
I'm in the middle of my annual re-reading (though I often fail to finish before Christmas) and as always it's the depth of description that Dickens puts into each and every scene that surprises me. The 'throne' on which the Ghost of Christmas Present sits is described down to the last mince pie and suckling pig; you can almost taste the dust and damp in the air in the young Scrooge's school house; and so on throughout the book. I know that Dickens did the same in his other books (only one of which I have ever finished, to my shame), but every time I'm taken aback by it.
It is not a book that is big on organised religion, as has been said. Apart from Tiny Tim's 'infant piety', there is the exchange between Scrooge and Christmas Present when Scrooge asks the Ghost why he wants to close all the shops on Sundays, 'depriving these people of their chance of a hot meal'. The Ghost says that such people have nothing to do with him and, in fact, have nothing in common with the spirit he come to share. I've always thought that Victorian values were in Dickens' sights in that section.
It seems that Christmas celebrations had gone in and out of fashion in the centuries since the Reformation. Georgian Christmases were probably very low-key as against the larger celebrations after the Restoration. Dickens didn't invent Christmas, but as he recorded and popularised the different customs (probably picking the ones he preferred) then the sheer strength of his popularity on both sides of the Atlantic fixed them in people's imaginations. As the British Establishment was busy recasting the Royal Family as a perfect family (something that could scarcely have been done with the Hanoverians), the family Christmas around the tree could be seen as a model for princes and paupers alike. A Christmas Carol managed to do this very effectively, whether Dickens meant it or not.
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Hurrah! A book by Dickens you can read in less than a week!
Not me! I've been reading about a page at a time, as the only reading opportunity I have this time of year, is when I go to bed! Very enjoyable, but hard to get through if one's eyes slam shut after about ninety seconds.
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I've reread for this discussion for the first time in a long time. Despite having actually performed in a play of the book ( I was Fezziwig ),
I've had a problem with the book for years. I don't celebrate Christmas and would like to quietly pass the time. The book provides a stock response for people; they say "you're a scrooge and you need to learn that Christmas is wonderful". I wish people would accept "None for me, thank you".
I've had a difficult year and what I noticed in this reading is the sense of Scrooge having abandoned the society of relatives and friends in favor of working until he had a completely empty life except for business success. The overnight conversion isn't very plausible, but figuring out what's important to you and fixing your life is a good example.
The other thing I noticed in this book is the almost total foreshadowing. Everything said in the day is brought back in the night. There is an elegant economy to the writing, and as others have mentioned, a strong sense of cold and solitude.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I have my severe doubts about the modern Christmas, with its commercialism and enforced jollity. I also have my serious doubts about the inevitable benignity of the family - as would Dickens' wife given the way he treated her.
However, although A Christmas Carol maybe highjacked to support that view, it is not Dicken's fault.
The Christmas he celebrates only starts on Christmas Eve - that is when carol singers first come round and the Fezziwig's famous party doesn't even start preparations until 7.30 in the evening.
The Cratchits have no tree, decorations, cards, nor (if I remember) any presents, nor (and this always amuses me) any green vegetables with the famous goose.
Bob Cratchit has to be back at work the next day and the shops are open Christmas morning - since Mrs Cratchit doesn't have an oven, she has sent the goose to the bakers to be roasted.
I find the book very moving. The equivalent is George Eliot's Silas Marner with a misanthropic outsider learning to relate to others.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
A few starting points for discussion...
It has been said that Dickens 'invented Christmas' as we know it now. Do you agree?
I'm not sure if I agree, at least not completely. I know that the Puritans did not look kindly on celebrating holidays like Christmas but it seems to me that in the book Dickens references ways of celebrating that are already taking place at the time as when the Spirit of Christmas Present is taking Scrooge through the streets and when he shows him the Cratchit's and his nephews homes. I suppose the English speaking world at the time was just beginning to leave behind the Puritan attitudes towards Christmas. I wouldn't say Dicken's invented Christmas as we know it (I don't believe he is responsible for Santa Clause or Father Christmas, for example, or for Christmas trees) but I do think Dickens had a hand in letting more English-speaking people feel free to celebrate it and gave them some ideas, though not all of them, in how to celebrate it. I definitely think his book is the reason we often dress a lot of the celebrations in mid-19th century fashions and nostalgia.
quote:
G K Chesterton wrote: In fighting for Christmas he was fighting for the old European festival. Pagan and Christian, for that trinity of eating, drinking and praying ... for the holy day which is really a holiday...he looked on the living Middle Ages, on a piece of the old uproarious superstition still unbroken; and he hailed it like a new religion. What sort of Christianity do you see in A Christmas Carol?
I see a kind, fun, hearty, gentle, feasting, drinking, laughing, tangible Christianity, the kind that creeps out of churches and spreads into parlors and alleys. I don't think we have enough of it, even today. Dickens doesn't need to spell out the Real Christmas Story. His readers know it. At least they did back then. It's enough to make allusions to it. The careful reader will make connections.
quote:
The book evokes powerful and primary sensations eg physical cold, childhood abandonment, hunger, sexual attraction, grief. Is it these as much, or more, than the story of a reformed miser, which give it its power?
I think the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The story of the redeemed miser is where the power ultimately lies but it's buoyed and strengthened by the descriptions, the allusions, the sensations contained in the book, as well as it's language and humor. This is what set's it apart from an average tale of someone who does bad but now does good. It gives it tangible things for the imagination and the memory of the reader to hang on to. It moves the reader and enables him to share in the feelings of the character which is what a good story-teller does.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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