Ship of Fools: January Book Group: "WITCHES ABROAD", by Terry Pratchett

Thread: January Book Group: "WITCHES ABROAD", by Terry Pratchett Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Happy New Year!

Our book this month is "Witches Abroad", by Terry Pratchett. It's raucous, thoughtful, and witty. For those familiar with Disc World, the Lancre witches are involved. There's a lot about Stories, and choices. And it's great fun.

Our tentative start date is January 20th. That can be moved if necessary. **Please let me know if you plan to participate.** Anyone can join at any time, even after the discussion's started. But having at least a vague idea of how many there'll be will help if we need to decide on moving the date. (Sounds like I'm planning a banquet! I'll chalk it up to watching a "Downton Abbey" marathon on PBS, right now.)

NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT POST SPOILERS OR HINTS ABOUT THE BOOK BEFORE I START THE DISCUSSION. OR about the rest of the series. That will give everyone a chance to discover and enjoy the book on their own. Thanks!

Next stop: Disc World! [Smile]

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :

I love Witches Abroad! It has my very favourite Pratchett qoute!(Readers, you are going to have to guess, not for me to put up a spoiler)

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

Tis also my favourite [Big Grin]

Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :

My first ever Pratchett and still a firm favourite!

Posted by marzipan (# 9442) on :

I've found my copy in a box (one day we will have enough shelves to hold all my books) so I'll join in. Not read pratchett for ages as they are all in a box under the bed...

Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :

I'd be interested. [Big Grin]

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

There was a time when it was my second favourite Pratchett. It may have been superseded by Good Omens or Hogfather. I'll have to reread it to find out.

Posted by Paul. (# 37) on :

I remember being very disappointed with Witches Abroad because I felt it wasn't up to the level of Wyrd Sisters (which is just edged out of first place of my favourite Discworld by Mort). That said it was still a Discworld book and still very enjoyable.

This'll be the first time I've re-read it since it came out in paperback (22-23 years!)

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

Long time since I read it, so I've just ordered a second-hand copy.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

I'm more of a City Watch man than a Witches man, but I'm interested.

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

I was just thinking of this book the other day! Good excuse to re-read it. [Smile]

Posted by Wild Organist (# 12631) on :

There's a fantastic CD set of a reading of it in German by Katharina Thalbach, (Total verhext, ISBN 978-3-86604-858-4) wonderful voice, and I don't even speak enough German to understand it [Frown]

Definitely one of my favourite books.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

I'm in. I like the witches almost as much as Captain Vimes.

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

I've found my copy, which has not been read for years, so will join in as well.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Looks like this is going to be fun! [Cool]

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Couldn't find a tree version around, so it's downloaded to the Kindle.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

My sister has a Discworld game: i'll see what she thinks about it. Still less than half way through the book I am leading the discussion of next month.....

Posted by Kittyville (# 16106) on :

I'll tentatively raise my hand. I've never done a book group before, here or IRL, so not sure if I'll have a lot to contribute, but happy to give it a go.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

(bump)

Posted by Mertseger (# 4534) on :

Witch, bard and Prattchet fan. I'm in.

Posted by Kyzyl (# 374) on :

I found my copy, so I'm in.

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :

We found (or rather didn't find) that our copy has gone missing, so we bought a new copy today - hardback no less!

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :

Managed to see it in a charity shop a while back. Will definitely read it and the comments.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I'm in. I like the witches almost as much as Captain Vimes.

I was not aware that Vimes was fond of witches.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

balaam--

LOL. Though Sam can come to accept just about anybody, if he finds he can depend on them in a pinch.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I'll look my copy out.

Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

I quite like Witches Abroad. I'm partial to a New Cancie occasionally.
Cattyish, off to dig it out.

Posted by cross eyed bear (# 13977) on :

I've just re-read my copy, so am in.

It not only struck me how much of the story I had forgotten over the last 15 years, but also how imho Pratchett's style has changed. I'd just finished reading "Raising Steam" before Witches Abroad.

Looking forward to the discussion!

Posted by gustava (# 15593) on :

Still waiting for a print copy but have listened to a copy on CD so I'm in.

Posted by marzipan (# 9442) on :

having read witches abroad for the first time in ages, I'm now rediscovering the rest of my Pratchett books (I don't have all of them) which means i'll probably have to re-read Witches Abroad again when it comes to question time!

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Wind up your keyboards, folks.
**********DISCUSSION STARTS HERE.**********

Feel free to pick and choose questions, and talk about topics of your own. This isn’t a school quiz. There aren’t any right or wrong answers.

--Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?

--Favorite characters, scenes, lines?

--Disliked characters, scenes, lines?

--Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?

--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?

--What do you think happens to Lilith?

--Which characters would you like to hang out with?

[ 20. January 2015, 08:12: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

--Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?

Yes. I've read a lot of them, though I think some are better than others and I don't agree with everything he says.

--Favorite characters, scenes, lines?

In this book: I like the way Magrat's character is developed. I also want to be Granny Weatherwax when I grow up (although I'm really more like Magrat).

I really liked the Thing With The Bulls (Nobody ever talked about it again. At least, not in front of the men.)

And the scene where Granny fleeces the card sharpers... and the Episode of the Flabberghast... well, nearly all the journey.

Absolute favourite line in the whole book: 'The trouble about small furry animals in a corner is that, just occasionally, one of them's a mongoose.'

--Disliked characters, scenes, lines?

I thought Gollum's cameo appearance was unnecessary. Pratchett has sent up 'The Lord of the Rings' so many times...

--Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?

Depends whether you are the Hero or the Villain, and how happy you are with your role, surely? But the whole book is an argument against stereotyping. People are more complicated than that. And life just happens; any resemblance to a Great Narrative is coincidental.

--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?

Ninjing. Cosmic harmony, inner one-ness and the possibility of knocking an attacker's kidneys out through his ears. What's not to like?

OK, OK - it's not magic. I did like Nanny's frank exchange of views with Mrs Gogol. 'I got to admit though... sometimes, just one pin... but only when there ain't no alternative.'

--What do you think happens to Lilith?

I think she's still in the mirror trying to Find Herself.

Being stuck inside a mirror looking for a piece of your soul is quite a common trope, but I don't think anyone else has done 'Is this a trick question?' - that was a clever idea.

--Which characters would you like to hang out with?

The guy who was handing round the jug of rum at the carnival. And Mrs Pleasant, if she invites me to dinner.

No, not the witches. Best admired from a safe distance...

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :

Who do I want to hang out with? Human!Greebo. Wrowwll!

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :

My favourite lines? To paraphtase (as the book is downstairs) "The vampite has been known to rise from the grave and the crypt, but never from the cat"

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

I think the first Pratchett I read as it came out in paperback was Equal Rites.

I think the three witches are Pratchett's best creations. Granny Weatherwax especially, although she's not the same without Nanny Ogg to offer a running commentary. She's developed somewhat - I think she'd be a bit more worldly-wise about foreign parts by the time of Tiffany Aching.

Best line: 'Is this a trick question?'

It looks like the moral of Witches Abroad is 'beware of stories', but of course it is a story itself (and the good guys win): the real moral is tell better stories, being more aware of what the stories leave out.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
--Which characters would you like to hang out with?

...

No, not the witches. Best admired from a safe distance...

Is there a safe distance? If necessary however far they'll come. - That is not explicit in the book, but it is implicit in the story.

Posted by Paul. (# 37) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?

I've them all upto Wee Free Men, mostly in order. I slowed and then stopped for a while and now I plan to catch up again.

quote:
--Favorite characters, scenes, lines?

Character? Granny Weatherwax.
Scene? the showdown with Mrs Googol.
Line? too many but I like the postcards Nanny sends home.

quote:
--Disliked characters, scenes, lines?

The Duc doesn't do a lot.

quote:
--Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?

I guess the point here is that if you try to squeeze people into a pre-determined narrative then you end up being the bad guy even if you think you're doing good. But I like stories and I think we all use them to make sense of the otherwise chaotic world. I think Pratchett thinks so too, and uses them as such, just not in this book.

quote:
--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?

By this stage, Pratchett has established that magic, whilst powerful and useful, is often more of a harm than a hindrance. Granny is the epitome of the idea that a real magic user should spend their time trying not to do magic, except when they really need it, and then watch out!

quote:
--What do you think happens to Lilith?

I think she wakes up from a bad dream, sighs and falls back to sleep on a feather bed, with fluffy down-filled pillows.

quote:
--Which characters would you like to hang out with?

Possibly Magrat. Definitely not Granny.

Posted by cross eyed bear (# 13977) on :

-Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?

The first Terry Pratchett I read was Equal Rites, which I picked up by accident from the library when I was about 12-13. It was unlike anything I had ever read before, and I loved the premise of the story. I think I've read them all over the years, some bought, some from the library, some of the earlier ones from my best friend from schooldays, whose dad always bought the newest Pratchett . My favourites tend to be those featuring the witches.

--Favorite characters, scenes, lines?

I loved the scenes with the vampire trying to get into the hostel windows, and eventually meeting Greebo (I agree, "...has never returned from the cat" is one of my favourite lines, too). Not only is it visually very funny, the humour is heightened by the fact that the witches don't have a clue what has just happened.

I'm fascinated by Granny Weatherwax's character - as Nanny says, someone who would naturally be nasty, but follows her duty to be 'good'. Someone who is clearly has a powerful gift for magic, but chooses to not always use it.

--Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?

There are certain story frameworks which are used again and again, sometimes with a twist. Pratchett has taken this a level further. Real life is not a story, and is messy. Trying to control real life and contain it in stories is messy too. It has side effects (such as the 'stories' happening in the woods, which I think was 'leakage' from the big story in Genua). Crucially, controlling and containing doesn't allow the characters to really live.

--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?

Magic in the Discworld is a force, and a gift which certain people have. It is the same force/gift for each of the three, but is practised in different ways. Lilith's has gone to her head. She seems to have believed it gave her either a right or a duty to control others, because she could. This could be what is behind her assertion that she is the 'good one'. At first I wasn't sure whether she really believed this or not. Lilith uses her magic to control people and events until everything around her is crafted and contained into a story she authors. However, although she believes she is in control, the magic has taken control of her and she has lost herself.

Mrs Gogol has the same force/gift, but coming from a different culture to our three witches (and indeed Lilith), practises it in a different way. This had shades of universalism for me -same force, different ways of practising.

Mrs Gogol also runs the risk of being overcome by her magic, hence Granny's assertion that she can't decide which side Mrs Gogol is on. This is particularly evident in the standoff between Granny and Mrs. G at the ball. The magic nearly overcomes her, but once Granny wins power from her, crucially, Mrs Gogol is able to accept that
she needs to let go in order to be let go.

Granny clearly has a strong magical gift. I believe in one of the other books, she is compared to the Discworld legend Black Aliss who, crucially, 'went bad' as she was overtaken by the magic so strong in her. I think this is behind Granny's choice not to use pure magic that often, although she clearly can when she has to (the fire trick, hypnotising Magrat, borrowing minds). Although she only uses pure magic when there isn't really an alternative, she creates the same effect with another type of magic, headology. This involves people believing certain things, and by believing things, they become true. The effect of this is that people become the magic themselves - rebuilding the old woman's cottage; giving Granny clothes and chutney; choosing not to do certain things because of the belief of what may happen. Granny uses herself as the 'magic' and knows exactly who she is.

--What do you think happens to Lilith?

Either she is still in the maze of mirrors trying to find herself, or she gradually disippates into many reflections until there is nothing left of her

--Which characters would you like to hang out with? I don't think I'd like to hang out with any of them!

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :

I've read just about all the discworld books. I feel that the most recent aren't up to the standard of the earlier ones - not really surprising in light of Terry Pratchett's medical condition. I've just bought - and read and enjoyed - his guide to the folklore of the Discworld which shows how prevalent some stories really are.

Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

--Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?

I think I've read them all except some of the peripheral and non-Discworld ones. This one I had skim read before, so this was a nice chance to revisit it in a bit more detail.

--Favorite characters, scenes, lines?

"The invisible people knew that happiness is not the natural state of mind, and is never achieved from the outside in."

"It is almost impossible to develop decent swordsmanship when you seem to have run into a food mixer that is biting your ear off."

--Disliked characters, scenes, lines?
I don't exactly dislike Casanunda, but I wish he'd turned up in a few earlier places so he could be established as a more rounded character. He could have woken up in the sleeping castle, shaken a few bits of ivy out of his beard and promised to pursue the evil witches in return for a kiss from the princess.

--Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?

How can you not manipulate and change a story? As soon as a new person hears or reads a story it has new significance.

In fiction, a story needs certain attributes in order to survive. It needs to be engaging, not put people off with inconsistent patterns and go somewhere satisfying. Not everyone wants a happy ending, but an ending is important to get a story into print.

In journalism you're not really telling everything, just what you hope your readers/ listeners/ watchers will engage with.

I'm not sure that our lives are really stories at all. There's not really a neat arc to real life. There are few real endings because someone is still getting on with it.

--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?

I tend to see this as a bit like talking about, well, any career. Plumbing for instance. Lilith would buy the most expensive shiny fittings and then use a hammer to make the old infrastructure fit them. Granny Weatherwax would do a basic job which would hold water for centuries. Magrat would do endless research and then just not quite make her work as solid as Granny's. Nanny Ogg would call in a relative to do the work while smoking a pipe and supervising.

--What do you think happens to Lilith?

Her essence is stuck in the mirrors, so her body is left to die.
Possibly.

--Which characters would you like to hang out with?

I like Nanny Ogg's cookbook, but I'm not sure I could stand the smell of smoke for long. Magrat is probably more my type, though she's tougher than me. Granny Weatherwax would thoroughly intimidate me. Lilith is just no fun. Ella doesn't get to do anything of her own choosing until the carnival, when she just gets swept along in the crowd and doesn't really institute anything to indicate her underlying character. Probably I'd end up in the kitchen mixing something for Mrs Pleasant. Greebo can come in and have some fish heads.

I was thinking about the tendency of human beings (Magrat for instance) to seek far-off wisdom and thought I might lack that tendency. Then I realised that my favourite wise teacher lived 2000 years ago in forn parts. Maybe it is universal. Does anyone just seek wisdom locally?

Cattyish, away to dream of cat-faced blokes in leather.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

--Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?

I hadn't read Witches Abroad before. I've read a bunch of Terry Pratchett books. Some are better than others, and there's a tendency to run a subseries into the ground with too many books.

--Favorite characters, scenes, lines?

Granny is fun to watch from a distance but I didn't really connect with any of them. Granny is too selfish, Magrat is a combination of too timid and insistent on making wrong decisions. I did have a small moment of sympathy for the wolf.

--Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?

I found the whole concept of stories odd. I was wondering how much Terry Pratchett was feeling trapped in the Discworld saga with demands from readers to continue them. I enjoyed the concept of the power of stories, but there didn't seem to much value given to the positive side of stories. There's some odd similarity with this book and the Sondheim "Into the Woods". There's a power in considering stories as traps, but there are a lot of repeating stories in Discworld.

--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?

I enjoyed Mrs. Gogol's power of cooking. Granny's vs. Lilith is somewhat about how the actions corrupt an abstract intent. My own feeling about magic is that Magic is like Theater in that you do it by restricting the complexity and richness of your universe to make an artificial creation. That seemed to be the case in the stories as frozen patterns that impose themselves in this book.

I also found the voodoo of Mrs. Gogol an uncomfortable stereotyping of a complicated religion. Arguably all of Discworld is irreverent, but this had it's own stereotypical view.;

--What do you think happens to Lilith?

I don't know. She may get lost in the mirror forever. She may trick someone chancing upon her to swap places and return for a sequel like the Master in Dr. Who. Or maybe she decides that stories are too much like looking at your reflection in a mirror and she doesn't want to do that again.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I've just finished my re-reading, but am not quite ready to answer the questions yet. This is because the thing that is sticking in my mind is the fate of the coachmen and the footmen. It is unlike Pratchett's usual dealing with death. We get introduced to a decent bunch of men (no names, which was a bad sign, according to Diana Wynne Jones' analysis in "The Tough Guide to Fantasyland"), who are then subverted by Nanny Ogg in a fairly traditional style for narrativium. Then they are stamped into the floor by Lilith, without so much as a visit by Death, whom we know to be in the vicinity. Nanny and the others should have known the sort of thing likely to happen to those who cross Lilith from the incident of execution. Only Ella shows any reaction to what happens to them. The witches ignore what she says.
Having read all of Pratchett's Discworld books, this incident did jar. Even thieves seared by dragons get a proper reception in the hereafter.
My mind is currently too stuck in the world of the neatly wrapped sandwiches, the lonely bride, and the scrunched carapaces to comment further.

[ 22. January 2015, 12:55: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Yes! You're absolutely right, Penny. That scene has always disturbed me, so much so that I skimmed over it this time which is probably why I didn't mention it.

Palimpsest:

quote:
There's a power in considering stories as traps, but there are a lot of repeating stories in Discworld.

That's true: there's the 'Death Takes a Holiday' plot, the 'Captain Vimes Saves The Day' plot, the 'Odd Couple Fall in Love' plot... this was a fairly good example of the 'Granny Weatherwax Rearranges The Universe To Her Satisfaction' plot, I thought. I'm not fond of 'Death Takes a Holiday' - I think he works better as a running joke in someone else's story. Of the stories where Death has a major role, The Hogfather is the one I liked most.

I take your point about voodoo, but I think you are overlooking a couple of things:

1. This book was published (checks original date), good grief, over 20 years ago. In that time the way we think and talk about race issues (and voodoo) has changed quite a lot. Worth bearing in mind when you are considering the way the Genuans are portrayed.

2. I am not so sure as you that Mrs Gogol is meant to be a stereotype. Yes, Granny Weatherwax beats her in the grand confrontation scene at the end - but Granny can beat anybody when she puts her mind to it (including her own sister). And it seems to me that what the book is actually ridiculing is the way British tourists behave when they're abroad - stereotyping the locals, complaining about the food, sending silly postcards home... if you look at the conversation between Mrs Gogol and Nanny Ogg when they meet for the first time, Mrs Gogol flings the popular stereotype of witches back at Nanny and basically gives as good as she gets. We know Nanny and Granny aren't stereotypical witches, so the logical conclusion (if this conversation is anything to go by) is that Mrs Gogol isn't meant to be a stereotype either and there's more to voodoo than dolls and zombies.

Certainly, when I read it for the first time, I interpreted it as a challenge to the stereotyped Western view of voodoo.

Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :

The scene with Greebo and the vampire was the reason our cat got his middle name (Cathcart Greebo MacMole) - because he did actually manage to kill a bat.
And I used to hang out with someone like the witches - my gran was as close as you could get in this world to a cross between Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg! But then, she was from Lancashire, too, and the witches are basically old ladies from Lancashire - just look at old episodes of Coronation Street with Ena Sharples and Minnie Cauldwell sitting in the snug at the Rovers' Return!
I was always more of a Wet Henne myself.
I loved the postcards home, too - exactly what older ladies on holiday used to do (and may still do!).

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I was also coping with having watched Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey concurrently with reading - he may be referencing Nordic filmography, but their Death has a lot in common with Pratchett's, doesn't he?

Posted by Wild Organist (# 12631) on :

Selective replies to Golden Key's questions, as some I have no answer to.
Lilith is left to run for eternity, searching for her original self. (This is, of course, lost inside the mirrors.) She will have no respite, and will never find herself, since this is stated in the narrative, that mirror magic may give something, but it takes more away, like most evil. I feel sorry for her, and hope that, at some point in her unending run, she may find a space, a personal purgatory in which she is offered the choices Granny originally offers, and accepts them.

My fave line is
"Vampires have risen from the dead, the grave and the crypt, but have never managed it from the cat."
Its understatement and dead-pan treatment just tickles my funnybone and makes me laugh, even as I type it for this.

Who I wd like to hang out with: all three witches are formidable as regards detecting bullsh*t, so I'd better not say any of them. Someone wanted Greebo as human. I'll take him as cat, sitting on my lap after his meal of fish heads, purring and going to sleep. My mum and dad had 3 cats, and my life doesn't permit me to have one at the moment. So any cat wd be welcome, especially one who could provide his own entertainment ;-)

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :

I wasn't going to join in on this thread (although am reading/lurking) as my copy is in storage, but I've found the audio version with Sheila Hancock sat on my DVR, recorded from Radio 4 last year. If I get to listening to it in the next couple of days, I'll report back.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

You can explain things by saying that this was written 20 years ago (In the last century!) but it still needs explaining or hand waving which ruins the magic. I'm chewing on why one stereotype bothers me (and you'd have a hard time arguing Mrs Gogol isn't a magical Negro [Smile]

) and another one like the three witches 3 doesn't. I think in part it's because he's weaving the witch stereotype into something richer and odder, and he's not doing that much of that with Mrs. Gogol although he is with Baron Samedi.

I think the last time Pratchett bothered me was when he was talking about Chinese pawnbrokers. It may be that I'm an American hypersensitive to racial stereotypes while the British are too busy with class to give a lot of time to racism.

Again, my point with the stories is that it seemed like he was talking about the hazards of his own unique way of weaving folklore and stories together. It seemed like he was complaining about the limitations of doing so. I may be over-reacting to the Alzheimers as well which probably didn't factor in as a "trapped by a frozen memory. Still it seems quite hostile to fictions.

Posted by Paul. (# 37) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
... you'd have a hard time arguing Mrs Gogol isn't a magical Negro

I'll have a go [Biased]

For me, the essence of the magical negro trope is that it's a character with special powers (sometimes subtle, sometimes blatent) who exists primarily to help the white hero in their journey. They appear from nowhere and conveniently melt into the background when their job is done.

Mrs Gogol is none of that. She has agency. She has an agenda. She has a backstory and reasons for her actions that are nothing to do with helping the protagonists. She has her own path and gods help you if you get in the way. The fact that there's a showdown with Granny Weatherwax shows that.

I agree she may not be the most fully drawn in terms of personality but she's no cardboard cut-out either.

So, for me, she's only a magical negro in the most literal sense. And in a world where magic is real being literally magical isn't being the kind magical that the trope refers to. She doesn't show up and do something only she could do (in order to rescue/inspire/educate the white hero), there's at least four other characters that can do what she does (whether they would choose to is another matter).

Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I think the last time Pratchett bothered me was when he was talking about Chinese pawnbrokers. It may be that I'm an American hypersensitive to racial stereotypes while the British are too busy with class to give a lot of time to racism.

[tangent]Funnily enough, I was reading that exact passage last night, if you mean in Night Watch, and to my eyes he's taking a dig at the old movie stereotype of funny things behind the scenes at a random oriental business (see "One of our Dinosaurs...", for a considerably more obvious example, rather than being racist in any particular way. After all, Thief of Time takes it firmly out of all the old king fu movies, and Monkey. I'll forgive the remark about Brits as you've made a dig back at Americans and, besides, you may be right. [Hot and Hormonal]

[/tangent]

AG

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Palimpsest:

quote:
You can explain things by saying that this was written 20 years ago (In the last century!) but it still needs explaining or hand waving which ruins the magic. I'm chewing on why one stereotype bothers me (and you'd have a hard time arguing Mrs Gogol isn't a magical Negro [Smile] ) and another one like the three witches 3 doesn't. I think in part it's because he's weaving the witch stereotype into something richer and odder, and he's not doing that much of that with Mrs. Gogol although he is with Baron Samedi.

Well, as Pratchett says explicitly that she is black, I wasn't planning to argue that she was not a Negro (although I wouldn't normally use That Word). And it's not really remarkable that she is a magic user, in a world where magic is possible. I agree she's not really fully developed as a character, but she's not just a stereotype.

Anyway, Granny and the others turn up to help her: does that make them Magical Whiteys?

Plus, what Paul said.

quote:
I think the last time Pratchett bothered me was when he was talking about Chinese pawnbrokers. It may be that I'm an American hypersensitive to racial stereotypes while the British are too busy with class to give a lot of time to racism.

I think (with the greatest possible respect) you're projecting your own issues onto a product of a different culture. We do it to you as well, but although we have race issues over here they are different. Because, as you so rightly remark, British people are more conscious of class issues than Americans. Baroness Warsi may not be white, but she definitely outranks me, and not just because she's richer; I don't think the Beckhams outrank me even though they're world-famous and rolling in money.

I also think that Pratchett (as a very popular writer) has had a lot of positive influence on popular culture because his work challenges stereotypes in a very subtle way. It's quite clever the way he's used the idea of dwarfs coming 'out' as female in his later books to make people think about attitudes to LGBQT people, for example. And in 'The Truth', he has a nice contrast between William de Worde (who was brought up to be prejudiced against other species but is struggling against his conditioning, not always successfully) and his father (who is a right bastard of the traditional, damn-your-eyes aristocratic type).

Maybe it's a pond difference. I prefer books in this style, that *show* you something you need to think about, to the more preachy 'This-is-the-moral-of-the-story-and-you-must-agree-with-it' type that hit you in the face with it and then beat you over the head a few times just to make sure you get it. That's one of the reasons why I didn't like 'Snuff', although it did have its moments; it seemed more soapbox-y than his usual style (and yes, slavery and genocide are both bad and evil things that everyone should oppose; I find being preached at irritating even when I agree with the moral of the story).

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

I had read it before, but I went through a phase when I read so many Pratchetts that I got them a bit muddled. I remembered there was a book where they meet someone who practices Voodoo, but not that it was this one.

I think the journey part of the book is much better and funnier - so many great lines, including the about the vampire not rising from the cat.

Although Pratchett specialises in phenomena which broadly parallel earthly phenomena, I felt he was ill at ease with Voodoo - perhaps he was uncertain about his understanding of it and worried about seeming ignorant or disrespectful - I felt it lacked that surety of touch, so it's not funny enough, though in the end quite touching, because of the couple's care for their daughter.

I think the brutal deaths are not untypical of Pratchett - he occasionally wants to remind us that evil characters really are evil.

I'm inclined to feel that the character of Magrat is a bit inconsistent. I accept that it's possible to argue that she's just developed and grown, but I'm not actually convinced.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

--Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?

I thought I had read Witches Abroad before, but I suspect I gave up on it fairly early on (probably because it was due back at the library). I read every Pratchett I could lay my hands on for a while, and then switched off and hadn't read him for quite a while. Even though my daughter grew up and started reading him in the meantime.

--Favorite characters, scenes, lines?

The bull thing, that poor vampire meeting Greebo, Greebo as human, some of Nanny Ogg's letters home, the card sharps on the boat ... The fact I ended up feeling sorry for a vampire. Nice to see Death again.

I did enjoy and remember the house falling on Nanny Ogg and the very confused Munchkins. I found that funny the first time I read this (unless it's also in another book too).

--Disliked characters, scenes, lines?

Ella wasn't that exciting a character, and the Duc felt a bit cardboard cut out - even for a humanised frog.

--Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?

The idea of stories felt a bit ironic being written into a story - but also echoed some of Diana Wynne Jones' ideas in Howl's Moving Castle. But the idea of fulfilling expectations is wider just than stories, isn't it? The roles that people are forced into within families could be seen as another version of story telling.

--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?

Really strong feeling of the dangers of magic, how abuse of powers backfires. The use of headology versus real magic and Granny Weatherwax's obvious powers was an interesting concept - but I am not sure it works as a way of making magic less powerful.

--What do you think happens to Lilith?

Stuck in the mirror as she has lost her identity in the images - Death wouldn't have been there if something wasn't going to happen to Lilith or Granny, and Granny released herself.

--Which characters would you like to hang out with?

They aren't really people I'd want to hang out with, watch as a fly on the wall or from a nice safe distance, maybe. But not actually get involved with.

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :

I enjoyed my reread - may be anything upto the twentieth time I have read this book. I have read most of his others two.

I think my favourite quote, amongst many, is about the Gods being the best Mrs Gogol was able to make.

Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

--Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?

Really strong feeling of the dangers of magic, how abuse of powers backfires. The use of headology versus real magic and Granny Weatherwax's obvious powers was an interesting concept - but I am not sure it works as a way of making magic less powerful.

I think you're right Curiosity, in that Granny seems to think that she needs a limit, and that limiting herself to the very powerful practice of headology and a few select tricks is enough. She is still in danger of setting herself up as judge, jury and executioner. In another book she actually remembers acting as judge and jury, passing the sentence, "End it in hemp." after reading the dark thoughts of the accused.

Cattyish, wet hen.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

It was in the middle of the night, in an episode of insomnia, that I finally understood the alligator sandwich joke.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Qlib:

quote:
I'm inclined to feel that the character of Magrat is a bit inconsistent. I accept that it's possible to argue that she's just developed and grown, but I'm not actually convinced.

I agree her behaviour is inconsistent, but I find it perfectly understandable; she's an intelligent, well-meaning woman (with, as Pratchett points out, the instincts of a witch and the common sense to use them) who's inclined to doubt herself and overshadowed by Granny. But if you put her in a corner, she turns out to be a mongoose. She's really quite a strong character, but the strength is usually buried under a façade of wet hen and only comes out when there's no alternative.

Posted by Dal Segno (# 14673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
...the thing that is sticking in my mind is the fate of the coachmen and the footmen. It is unlike Pratchett's usual dealing with death....

...but it resonates well with some of the things that happen in Good Omens which Pratchett co-wrote with Neil Gaiman the previous year. I wonder whether this is an overspill from Gaiman's darker style into Pratchett's mainstream writing.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I was meaning to reread that again. It was the first of Pratchett's I read, having spotted the Richmal Crompton stuff on glancing through it. Then I heard "Equal Rites" on Woman's Hour. Then I read in chronological order, one every time I sent in an OU assignment.

Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :

Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?

Yes, I've read all the Discworld series several times [Big Grin]

Favorite characters, scenes, lines?

Lots of memorable things, but my personal favourites are the vampire bat desperately trying to get into the Witches' rooms, which always raises a smile, as does Greebo in human form trying to curl up in front of the fire.

Nanny's linguistic grasp of "Foreign" is priceless.

Nanny and Granny are brilliant together but Magrat's character never seemed to quite work as well in this book. Greebo is awesome, as always.

Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?

I think stories have a life of their own but can be tweaked to a certain degree; any more than that can cause chaos. Lilith never learned that fundamental concept, whereas Granny seemed always to have known it at an innate level.

What do you think happens to Lilith?

I think she remained trapped in her mirror construct because she never recognised herself as she really was but was always looking for who she thought she was. Very sad.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
...but it resonates well with some of the things that happen in Good Omens which Pratchett co-wrote with Neil Gaiman the previous year. I wonder whether this is an overspill from Gaiman's darker style into Pratchett's mainstream writing.

Except that in Good Omens, Adam pulls a Deus ex at the end and puts everything back. Or at least most of everything - I don't think the biker gang gets a reprieve.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Have you read Witches Abroad before? Any other Pratchett books?

Read this one several times, and many other Pratchetts.

Favorite characters, scenes, lines?

Lancre coven—Their usual irritating, catastrophic, fighting for good despite themselves, wonderful selves.

Casanunda—He’s a sweetie and a scamp.

Death—I like him very much. (Helps to have read many Disc World books, because he grows and changes.) Terry Pratchett recounted someone telling him that they’d like to meet Death when they died. TP said that made him go and stare out the window, for a while. I wouldn’t mind meeting him, either.

Palace cook—Very much queen of her realm, and capable of dealing with Greebo.

Mrs. Gogol and Baron Saturday—really interesting. Not sure how much time I’d want to spend with them.

My favorite scene was when the baron showed up at the ball. I’d figured out earlier that he was Baron Samedi, lord of the cemetery in Voodoo. So I was prepared for Interesting Things—especially with Mrs.Gogol backing him up. When he tapped his way down those stairs, bringing all of life with him, it was powerfully beautiful.

Disliked characters, scenes, lines?

Lilith—Though I think she really believed—consciously—that she was doing good things. She has the same streak of arrogance that her sister does—but Lilith got to the bad girl role first, and Esme had to take “the good one”. That may well have saved Esme—and Disc World, for that matter.

Snake girls—Shudder.

I think what the Lancre coven did to Greebo was very, very wrong. They used him, without his permission.

Talk about Stories. What are they? Should they be manipulated, altered, left alone?

Tricky things, stories. They shouldn’t be forced to happen. People should be able and encouraged to make their own choices.

Talk about magic. Granny’s vs. Lilith’s vs. Mrs. Gogol’s vs. …?

Mrs. Gogol’s is rooted in giving power to the poor and powerless, via focusing nature. That seems to be more or less neutral, until it gets used for revenge.

Lilith’s is bad, because she roots it in doing bad things. She’s spent every minute since adolescence bending the world to her will. She’s more like a Disc World wizard than witch.

Granny deals with the same temptations, every minute. It’s a horrible struggle, and she stumbles a lot. But, somewhere along the way, she learned some balance and restraint—and, most importantly, that the best magic is helping people “with skin”—getting involved and doing what needs to be done.

I’ll take Granny’s version—with some help from Nanny and Magrat.

What do you think happens to Lilith?

I hope that, some day, she gets bored enough to just pick one and go through.

Which characters would you like to hang out with?

Well, it would depend on the circumstances. But all the favorites I listed. An hours-long, informal dinner or picnic, with everyone providing entertainment.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Thanks, everyone who participated. Feel free to continue the discussion, if you like.

Anyone else who wants to can jump in, too. [Smile]

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