|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Wolf Hall
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
Anyone watching this?
I haven't been impressed by the books. I'm not a fan of historical novels written in the present tense, but I like a historical drama so gave it a go.
I wasn't too impressed by the first episode, though the the acting was very good and the interiors were interesting - some fun trying to spot places I knew. My mistake was to get the Cromwells mixed up, and to spend the first episode waiting for him to depose the king and invade Ireland, which he still hadn't done by the end of the episode. It was only then that the penny dropped, which meant I now had no idea who this man was or why we were seeing events from his point of view.
But it's been interesting enough to make me regret having missed the third episode. The critics have been raving about the series, other people are bored by it: what did the rest of you think?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
welsh dragon
Shipmate
# 3249
|
Posted
there's always iplayer! I'm enjoying it, but having loved the books I think Mark Rylance is very wrong as Cromwell, wrong physique, wrong accent and has the voice of Flop, parents of small children will understand this, a cartoon character. (TC is related to Oliver by the way).
Posts: 5352 | From: ebay | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
I don't like reading historical fiction, but I do quite like watching it, so I haven't read the books, but am enjoying the series.
I have no idea how accurate it is, but that is not the point. The acting is good, the storytelling is good, and it is up to the standard one expects. In the end, it is entertaining. Which is most of what I want from it.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
No idea who Thomas Cromwell was. One of Henry VIII four Thomases that are often highlighted during his reign: Thomas Wolsey, Thomas More, Thomas Cromwell and Thomas Cramner. Possibly quite arbitary as there were a lot of Thomases around but a good way into the history of England during that reign.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
|
Posted
I recorded them and saw the first ep, didn't bother watching the second, and got really bored halfway through the third. It is so s-l-o-w ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif) ... and Mark Rylance may be a fine actor but he's doing nothing for me.
And what really irritates me is the %***ing dangly earrings the women wear! They just look stupid (and inaccurate) with the headdresses. Dear designers, have a look at portraits of Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour and the rest - are they wearing dangly earrings in the 1530s? No, they are not.
Sorry for the rant but it drives me up the wall.
--------------------
Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I enjoyed the novels - with some reservations - and I'm enjoying the TV adaptation of the highly-acclaimed RSC productions that were based on them ... it went to stage before going to screen.
Neither are perfect but they are intelligently done - and, more importantly - don't insult the viewers' or the readers' intelligence either.
The 'historic present tense' is fraught with difficulty and gets wearing after a while, but on the whole I think Hilary Mantel gets away with it.
I quite like the slow-burn approach of the TV adaptation too ... that makes a refreshing change.
The series isn't perfect, but its critics I would say, "What would you rather? 'The Tudors'?'
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I must admit, I was a reluctant convert to the Mantel novels but I am a convert.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
|
Posted
I am absolutely loving it. I love the slow burn approach, there's time to savour and consider what is being said and what is not being said.
I've only read Wolf Hall, which I loved for the first half to two-thirds, and then had to force myself to finish. But loved both the plays, which we saw last year.
And the only other time I've seen Mark Rylance (as Olivia in Twelfth Night at the 400th anniversary of its premiere in Middle Temple Hall), I hated him - he was so up himself. But I think he's wonderful in this.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I am absolutely loving it. I love the slow burn approach, there's time to savour and consider what is being said and what is not being said.
That's kind of what makes it for me - a lot of it does seem to be unspoken. Dialogue is sometimes replaced by facial expressions and meaningful, unspoken pauses. However, there does seem to be some kind of tacit assumption that you're already familiar with the historical period, so when the scenes jump abruptly to a few months later, if you aren't, you may find yourself wondering "how did they get to this point? and who on earth are these new characters?"
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
|
Posted
Yes I'm enjoying this - having not got on with the book at all. I like the slow-burn and silences and facial expressions and the different point of view on Henry VIII's court.
I did much the same as Ariel about Cromwell - had a conversation with my son in law (a history teacher), who isn't watching it, about it which went along the lines of, "So whose point of view is it?" "Oliver Cromwell.. No... Thomas Cromwell... Was there a Thomas...? Cromwell? Somebody Cromwell... I'll have to look it up..." ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Mr Nen has nobly been trying to watch it with me but his knowledge of history is even more sketchy than mine, which led to him asking, "So who's that?" when the character introduced herself as "John Seymour's daughter." ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
--------------------
They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
|
Posted
I loved the books. They were so vivid it was like time travel.
I'm liking the telly programme too, but I'm so glad I'd read the books first. Also that our history teacher was so so thorough!
It's a feast for the eyes, particularly the costumes.
Mark Rylance can make a glance speak volumes.
--------------------
"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
|
Posted
I've not read the books as I'm nearly always disappointed by books that are very highly praised (particularly bad books that garnered a lot of positive reviews include Midnight's Children, Life of Pi and Cloud Atlas).
I gave it a watch. The first episode annoyed me for its nonlinear timeline which is one of my bugbears when reading books, so I'm still not inclined to read the books.
The programme itself does resemble a live version of a Holbein painting. Though it's most notable for flickering candles and an inordinate amount of pouting from Mark Rylance. Yet it's strangely captivating and I'm still watching it.
--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
There are always cruel compromises made in costuming and even stunts. (If you are so unfortunate as to see EXodus: Gods & Men in the movie theater you will see them riding horses with stirrups -- probably for insurance purposes.) There was an article in Guardian about how, to allow for modern sensibilities, nobody is wearing a codpiece. Poor Henry, who started the fashion...
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
And what really irritates me is the %***ing dangly earrings the women wear! They just look stupid (and inaccurate) with the headdresses. Dear designers, have a look at portraits of Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour and the rest - are they wearing dangly earrings in the 1530s? No, they are not.
This piqued my interest so I googled "Tudor" and "Portrait" in images and pretty quickly turned this up.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
Admittedly this is 1550 rather than the 1530s - but those are some earrings.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
|
Posted
I'm really enjoying it, I take part in Tudor recreations and have studied the Tudors for many years so I was very familiar with Thomas Cromwell as he is a major player in the court. I haven't seen the latest episode yet but I'm enjoying the sensitive portrayal of him, most dramas portray him just as as manipulative and power hungry but this shows the human side of him. His love of Wolsley was well portrayed. I liked also when he pointed out that Thomas More is seen as a godly man but is responsible for the burning of hundreds of 'heretics'; Mantell obviously wanting to emphasise that her perspective is different to other writers.
My husband and children have cod pieces in their Tudor clothes...
--------------------
'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Polly Plummer
Shipmate
# 13354
|
Posted
I like the atmosphere and the acting but find it very hard to work out who everyone is. Obviously name badges wouldn't be right, but there should be some way of making it clearer.
I'm keeping the episodes I've recorded and am planning to play them all back later and see if it makes more sense second time round!
Posts: 577 | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
The DVD comes out on 2 March - which seems quite quick.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
|
Posted
Loved, loved, loved the books and am loving the series as well so far. I thought it would be very difficult to translate to screen as in the novels so much is happening inside Cromwell's head -- but Mark Rylance's acting (for my money) is superb and manages to convey so much of what's going on in C's mind with just facial expression and tone. He doesn't look, physically, like I'd imagined Cromwell in the book, but that bothered me for about 1.5 seconds and then he started to act and I couldn't have cared less. So I guess I am sort of the ideal audience for this series -- I loved the book, I feel the adaptation is excellent, and I know a bit about the period so I don't feel overwhelmed or confused. I will definitely be buying these on DVD when DVDs appropriate to my region make their way onto the market.
--------------------
Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
there's always iplayer! I'm enjoying it, but having loved the books I think Mark Rylance is very wrong as Cromwell, wrong physique, wrong accent and has the voice of Flop, parents of small children will understand this, a cartoon character. (TC is related to Oliver by the way).
"Indeed!"
"Remarriage. It's a King thing."
The scene in the first episode where TC's nephew (his sister's son) asks his permission to change his surname to Cromwell: that fellow is the direct ancestor of Oliver and Richard Cromwell. (As well as the confusingly named royalist, Sir Oliver Cromwell.)
t
--------------------
Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I think it is visually very successful, the candle lighting works well - stills look like a period painting.
I realised it had made a a strong impression on me once I noticed I had designed my lead elf character in Dragon Age Inquisition to look exactly like Mark Rylance (the guy playing Thomas Cromwell).
[ 07. February 2015, 23:20: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
The paps are after Mark Rylance now, which must mean his fame quotient is heading up a good notch.
Does anyone know at what point the storyline segues from 'Wolf Hall' to 'Bring Up the Bodies'? I read the former a few years ago, but can't remember where it ends. I might consider reading the second book in parallel with the series. (I don't want anyone to reveal plot spoilers, but most people do know the story of Henry VIII....)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
My niggle is that Rylance is far too good looking to play Thomas Cromwell who we know, from a very good contemporaneous portrait, was not a particularly well-favoured cove.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
And what really irritates me is the %***ing dangly earrings the women wear! They just look stupid (and inaccurate) with the headdresses. Dear designers, have a look at portraits of Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour and the rest - are they wearing dangly earrings in the 1530s? No, they are not.
This piqued my interest so I googled "Tudor" and "Portrait" in images and pretty quickly turned this up.
Jengie
Later on dangly earrings did indeed become fashionable, just not at this precise moment in the 1530s (sorry, bit of a nerd).
I suppose I'm not gripped by the series because I'm just not a Tudor person temperamentally, what with being a Yorkist sympathiser and longstanding member of the Richard III Society ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) - I'm happier in the 1470s than the 1530s...
eta: and having wellknown faces play characters whom they don't resemble in the slightest doesn't help!
[ 08. February 2015, 14:59: Message edited by: Pine Marten ]
--------------------
Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
|
Posted
Although i agree that Ryance proably bears little resemblance to the real life Cromwell I'm really enjoying this, mainly because of the acting and the staging.
I really liked the books so I have an idea what is happening, I think I might be floundering otherwise.
WHat do people think of the portrayal of More? I saw a couple of bishops weren't happy.
--------------------
'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarasa:
WHat do people think of the portrayal of More? I saw a couple of bishops weren't happy.
In reality, I think most of those being portrayed were political opportunists. I don't mean that negatively, it is the nature of being involved at the highest levels of state at that time. When you see them so closely, it might not be very pretty.
In a sense, historical accuracy is less an issue than literary accuracy - they are seeking to represent a book on screen, and they should be judged by how well they do that, not by how historically accurate the portrayal is. It is fiction.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
I'm watching it, but am not all that impressed. It looks fairly like how I imagine the C16 might have looked, though it's a bit too clean. It doesn't really look lived in.
The people though aren't C16 century people. She doesn't get inside the C16 soul at all. And as history, I'm fairly certain she's got the characterisation completely wrong.
There's one neat touch. I don't believe there is any historical basis for this at all. But dramatically, if one is prepared to put up with dramatic licence and more so, having Cromwell have an affaire with his deceased wife's sister when he is trying to get Henry out of a marriage with his deceased brother's widow, is slick.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
RC Bishop Mark Davies not happy about the portrayal of Thomas More as scheming?
To quote Ms Rice-Davies, he would say that, wouldn't he?
Like it or not, there is copious evidence of More's ruthless pursuit of heretics and of his personally supervising the questioning of some using various unsavoury methods, including pressing.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
|
Posted
I got nearly apoplectic about people complaining that Hilary Mantel had got it "wrong" with her portrayal of More -- it's as if people don't grasp the concept of historical fiction at all. Obviously you are expected, as a historical fiction writer, to stick to the known facts of the events, but people's thoughts, feelings and motivations -- well, it's open season on those. By definition, you can't "get it wrong" when the people involved are long dead and there's no way to know what they might really have seemed like on a day-to-day basis. Plus, there's the issue of point of view -- if it's the story from Cromwell's point of view, then of course More's going to come off as a prick, and Cromwell, whatever historically-accurate deeds he did, is going to have a justification for all of them that makes sense at least to him.
In the end I just wrote a blog post about it, but, not surprisingly, it hasn't gone quite as viral as the pro-More comments have.
--------------------
Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
|
Posted
As I said in my earlier post, I really like that she brings up points like this one about More, he was responsible for the deaths of many 'heretics' and was very much a product of his time and the court he chose to live in.
--------------------
'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
|
Posted
I love it but I don't know why - I find it somewhat turgid and hard work to watch but in general, I love Tudor history and the scheming and plotting.
A lot of the acting and casting I find unconvincing but I am gripped !
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
I haven't been watching (though I enjoyed the book) but it felt like the right place to say how much of a gift this whole period of history must be to writers and storytellers. Although I wish the Stuart era got more of a look-in regarding historical fiction and drama, the sheer force of personality of the Tudors is undeniable. Anne Boleyn and her downfall in particular is just a dream in terms of narrative. Probably why WWII gets done more than WWI - the narrative structure of the war just lends itself to dramatisation so much more.
I am a bit surprised (and dismayed) that people didn't know who Thomas Cromwell was, but I suppose his power was strongest in that funny middling period of Henry's reign, and Wolsey and More (and Cranmer) would be more well-known.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It looks fairly like how I imagine the C16 might have looked, though it's a bit too clean. It doesn't really look lived in.
I had the same thought (for over-cleanliness is often a problem in historical drama). However the producers had other ideas: read this.
At least it's not Hollywood-sumptuous.
[ 09. February 2015, 07:52: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Yes, the royal residences would certainly be much cleaner than one might imagine, and table manners etc were actually very refined. Expensive clothing was hard to get hold of as it would need to be imported (England produced wool and rough cloth at this stage, but it was turned into fine clothing on the continent), so it was far too precious to get dirty. The idea of Henry VIII chomping on bones and throwing them over his shoulder is far from the truth.
The photo in the article actually looks quite like how I'd imagine Henry VII - so at least a Tudor, then!
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
Yes, and Lucy Worsley on a programme last week about Hampton Court was at great pains to explain how people kept their expensive courtly clothes clean as - except for the undergarments - they could not be washed without being irrevocably damaged.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fredegund
Shipmate
# 17952
|
Posted
I was expecting the loathe it - another historian here, though it's at least 300 years too late for me. But I'm loving it as well. I haven't been a fan of Mark Rylance on stage, but I'm totally gripped by his Cromwell. Let's face it, there isn't a great deal primary evidence for character to go on. Even the late great G.R Elton of blessed memory couldn't make his charismatic in his lectures, and he worshipped the man.
I suspect we've all been seduced by Paul Schofield in "A Man for All Seasons" re Thomas More. This one is far closer to the tricky self-publicist and persecutor of heretics that his contemporaries might recognised. I'm really looking forward to the attempts to get More to take the oath - but them I'm a big fan of Anton Lesser (Two Shakespearian Actors, anyone?)and want to see more. (sorry - haven't had enough coffee to avoid that one)
I've only read the first novel, and also had a problem with the present tense, and trying to work out who is actually speaking, but I love the minor characters. All those gentlemen-turned accountants-turned spies-turned potential assassins. Almost reconciles me to my profession.
If you haven't seen it, it's worth a look. And then read Elton for perspective.
--------------------
Pax et bonum
Posts: 117 | From: Shakespeare's County | Registered: Jan 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Yes, I think that's right - even the homes of middle-class merchants and yeomen wouldn't have been middens ... there would have been some pretty awful hovels that poor people were living in, though.
If anyone's visited the Mary Rose museum and seen the artefacts on show - everything from medical and musical instruments to ordinary sailors's clothing to weaponry etc etc they'd soon appreciate how well made and substantial a lot of Tudor bits and pieces were.
Meanwhile ... Rylance gets my vote.
As for More - he's well played by Anton Lesser - it's undeniable that he was a schemer, a chancer and a persecutor - although he mostly had heretics whipped rather than killed.
The estimate upthread of him having 'hundreds' of heretics killed is an exaggeration. Yes, there were probably a few dozen 'heretics' executed during the reign of Henry VIII - and certainly several hundred - perhaps 250 or so - during the re-establishment of Catholicism during the reign of 'Bloody Mary' Tudor when even King Philip of Spain thought she was going too far ...
That doesn't make any of it any more palatable, but let's keep it in proportion.
As for those with a hazy knowledge of the period and people being irritated by non-linear narratives and so on ... I'm afraid I don't have a great deal of sympathy.
I know it sounds judgmental of me but it's not as if these things can't be looked up online or in libraries - and multiple perspectives/non-linear narratives etc have long been a staple of literary fiction ... just get with the po-mo programme ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It looks fairly like how I imagine the C16 might have looked, though it's a bit too clean. It doesn't really look lived in.
I had the same thought (for over-cleanliness is often a problem in historical drama). However the producers had other ideas: read this.
At least it's not Hollywood-sumptuous.
I take that point. The Royal court was the Royal court. It would not have been filthy. And too much historical drama goes too far in assuming the past was universally squalid. It's something else that I'm hinting at.
So often, when one sees period drama set, say in the 1920s, the cars are all spotless. They're hiring peoples' cherished antiques, which are kept like that, absolutely spotless. The contract probably says they've got to be kept that way. But a real car, even if it has been cleaned and polished before it left its garage, only has to go a few miles and however clean the visible upper bodywork is, grub starts to creep in, round the wheels, in the joins, along the footboards.
Likewise, if I'm immaculate when I leave my house in London, by the time I've walked though muddy streets to the Thames, been rowed to Hampton Court and possibly been rained on, however much I want to impress the king, I won't be quite pristine.
And Trudy, I partially take your point about historical novels, but only partially. I take history seriously. So for me, the writer's interpretation has to be possible within what I know of the real history. Costume drama that portrayed Adolf Hitler as a deeply misunderstood man who lived at a pretty refuge on an Alpine Peak, loved pets, children and his mother, and wanted to make Germany and all Europe a nicer place, agonised over it all but was in hock to dreadful politicos and generals fouled up his vision down on the plains below, might make a novel novel but it wouldn't be convincing.
Hilary Mantell may project her fantasies onto Thomas Cromwell, and it may be an entertaining read, but the chap Shardlake works for is fictionally more convincing.
I agree though that More, like Beckett, is a more questionable figure from the way he's often portrayed. Their being canonised has got in the way.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
Well, I'm not going to spend a lot of time in advance researching a historical period so I can better appreciate a TV drama. It's supposed to be light entertainment, not something I have to do homework for, and I expect it to be reasonably accessible.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If anyone's visited the Mary Rose museum and seen the artefacts on show - everything from medical and musical instruments to ordinary sailors's clothing to weaponry etc etc they'd soon appreciate how well made and substantial a lot of Tudor bits and pieces were.
I've seen that and yes it is impressive. I've also recently been watching the excellent Tudor Monastery Farm, another of Ruth Goodman's wonderful forays into the past, and was quite impressed by the technology and methods they used.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
RC Bishop Mark Davies not happy about the portrayal of Thomas More as scheming?
To quote Ms Rice-Davies, he would say that, wouldn't he?
Like it or not, there is copious evidence of More's ruthless pursuit of heretics and of his personally supervising the questioning of some using various unsavoury methods, including pressing.
I know very little about + Mark Davies, but from what little I have heard about him (chance comments ffrom RCs I have met etc), if it makes him unhappy, I'm happy with that.
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
|
Posted
With film portrayals of historical characters, it's always the first actor I saw in the role who sticks in my mind. Which in my case, for Thomas Cromwell, was Kenneth Williams ... He would bring an interesting gloss to Wolf Hall. As would Sid James as Henry VIII and Terry Scott as Wolsey.
I enjoy the slow pacing and the obvious affection for the characters. Jonathan Pryce as Wolsey was a real man, with flaws and virtues; compare and contrast with Sam Neill's depiction in The Tudors, who was basically Sam Neill in a red dress. I'm delighted to see a historical costume drama that isn't a bonkfest - which is quite an achievement when you think how much of the facts revolved around the private lives of the king and others.
Only two criticisms, one of which I know can't be helped:
1. The palaces, manor houses etc. look old. That's because, in this day and age, they are. Stone is pitted, wooden floor boards are warped. But, back then, many were freshly built.
2. Anne Boleyn's neck. She famously remarked prior to her execution that her head would be easy to cut off because her neck was so small. Now I look at it and think, "no it ain't ..."
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Small as in dainty, petite - Anne was a slender woman, and in any case the comment was made in jest. Also the costumes are accurate - women's dresses had extremely low necklines, and it wasn't uncommon for nipples to be visible. Low necklines make necks look longer.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
The palaces, manor houses etc. look old. That's because, in this day and age, they are. Stone is pitted, wooden floor boards are warped. But, back then, many were freshly built.
This is an interesting and valid point. This account of the production of the tapestries used in the programme shows that a decision had to be made about their colouring. My wife thinks that they made the wrong one.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Whether or not Hilary Mantel's envisioning of these characters will stand the test of historical rigour is an open question. Personally, I think her combination of research and imagining has a remarkable plausibility. She is an excellent author and both books are for me a wonderful and insightful read.
Of course it is impossible to do them justice in a six part serial, and the condensation is both obvious and necessary. But I am enjoying the honest attempt to do it well. I think Mark Rylance is certain to win an award or two for his acting performance.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
This is an interesting and valid point. This account of the production of the tapestries used in the programme shows that a decision had to be made about their colouring. My wife thinks that they made the wrong one.
I agree with her. Like us, people in past ages liked bling. They also didn't expect their tapestries to be delivered pre-faded.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Small as in dainty, petite - Anne was a slender woman, and in any case the comment was made in jest. Also the costumes are accurate - women's dresses had extremely low necklines, and it wasn't uncommon for nipples to be visible. Low necklines make necks look longer.
You would only get away with very low necklines if you were very rich or very poor though. The bodice of this period is generally rigid and immobile, and any self respecting woman would not even be seen to wobble (my own petticoat bodice is reinforced with real dried reeds for stiffening, as was the Tudor custom, with some rather modern steel rods for extra support - the reeds are another reason dresses aren't washable!). When I leave the Tudor dairy I put on sleeves and a bolero type jacket to cover my modesty (despite this being 1578 and my consequently having a linen shift that goes up to my neck!). The Tudors were more modest than we think, though I agree that fashionable dresses were lower in the 1530s than 1570s.
--------------------
'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Hmmmm ... @Ariel ... yes, 'light entertainment' but that doesn't mean 'unintelligent'.
You don't need a PhD in Tudor history to enjoy Wolf Hall on telly ... nor to enjoy the novels. Ok, A Level history would help ... but that wouldn't be a requirement nor the lack of it an impediment.
Nobody's saying that we have to be historical experts to read the novels or enjoy the drama.
But Google is our friend. There's no excuse, to my mind, for anyone in this day and age to confuse Thomas Cromwell with Oliver Cromwell - as some Shippies confess themselves to have done - when all you have to do is key the name into a search-engine and voila you have Wikipedia - for all it's faults - and goodness knows how many other links.
How 'light' does 'light entertainment' have to be for goodness sake?
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But Google is our friend. There's no excuse, to my mind, for anyone in this day and age to confuse Thomas Cromwell with Oliver Cromwell - as some Shippies confess themselves to have done - when all you have to do is key the name into a search-engine and voila you have Wikipedia - for all it's faults - and goodness knows how many other links.
Retrospectively - yes - but you shouldn't be expected to know who this minor character on the field of history is, or every other character for that matter, before you start watching the programme. And I don't have an A level in History. It wouldn't have been much use if I had, anyway, because at the time, the syllabus my classmates were following covered Charlemagne the Great.
I'm not apologizing for not knowing who Thomas Cromwell was. Quite probably lots of people don't.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
I think before Dame Hilary got started on him, Thomas Cromwell would have had a very low recognition score - well below Wolsey or More (and he probably got an up from A Man for All Seasons).
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Sorry, Ariel, I am winding you up to an extent ...
I'm not saying you 'should' have heard of Thomas Cromwell - although I must admit I can be guilty of assuming that people have a general level of knowledge about these things - just as people assume that I'd be more familiar with the Periodic Table than I actually am ... ie. I know what it is but that's as far as it goes.
I didn't do physics or science subjects, but if I was going to go and see the film 'The Theory of Everything' about Stephen Hawking, I'd Google him to find a bit more about him before going to the cinema.
Even if I hadn't heard of Stephen Hawking before seeing the film, I'd imagine I'd be able to work out who he is from seeing it.
But yes, fair enough ... Thomas Cromwell isn't a household name in the way that Napoleon is or Nelson or some other famous historical figures.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
