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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: March Book Group - Howl's Moving Castle
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
The book group choice for March is Howl's Moving Castle, a novel by Diana Wynne Jones. It's a great rollicking read for fans of fantasy. There is also a rather good anime film of the book too.
I'll post some questions on the 20th.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
I've reserved it. Haven't read this book before.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Good re-read coming up. Read before the film, (imperative form of verb)or you'll miss the time appropriate echoes of the 6 Nations. (And I'll have to get my copy of the film back from my film studied nephew.)
[ 01. March 2015, 17:31: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Halfway through re-reading it now. It's light and amusing and still enjoyable.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
I read it some time back. If I can find it - harder than it should be - I'll reread it.
The film is a rather different story. Not worse; just different.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Ferdzy
Shipmate
# 8702
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Posted
Ooo, a favourite book by a favourite author. I'll re-read.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
I'm in. Are we allowed to talk about Castle in the Air and The House of Many Ways as well? I used to think Howl's Moving Castle was my favourite by her - but then The House of Many Ways was published...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I think "Howl's Moving Castle" (now finished re-reading) is probably still my favourite and the one where you get most of Howl, who plays a more minor role in other books. "Enchanted Glass" is one of my other favourites.
Maybe we could do with a DWJ thread to enthuse about our different favourites?
[ 02. March 2015, 12:21: Message edited by: Ariel ]
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I think we could do with a DWJ thread. The Chrestomanci series is my favourite.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Just bumping this up in case any one else would like to join us.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Full Circle
Shipmate
# 15398
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Posted
She is a new author for me so I'm joining in.
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Beware the monocausal fallacy (Anon)
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
A few questions to get started. Feel free to answer all or none and to chip in with your own . If you haven't finished the book yet, you might not want to scroll down until you have in case it spoils the story.
1. Did you find Ingary a convincing magical world?
2. The story is told very much from Sophie's point of view, does this work, or would you have liked Michael, Howl's or any of the other character's viewpoints as well?
3. Do you think the fact that Howl is from another world (1980s Wales) detract or add to the story?
4. DWJ is well known for her tendancy to chuck everything at a story which sometimes leads to bits that don't quite come off. Was there anything in this story you thought didn't quite work?
5. If you have seen the anime film (which is rather different to the book) did you think it caught the essence of the story or is it a different thing altogether?
There are lots of other questions I could ask, Is Fanny a wicked stepmother, would it matter if Sophie had stayed old, what do you think of the John Donne 'spell', but I'll leave it at that for now.
Let the discussion commence!
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
1. Did you find Ingary a convincing magical world?
Yes and no. When everything can be done by magic, logically there's no need to do anything by hand, yet quite a lot usually does end up being done the ordinary way with magic more like the icing on the cake.
2. The story is told very much from Sophie's point of view, does this work, or would you have liked Michael, Howl's or any of the other character's viewpoints as well?
This works fine for me. Some authors do go in for the literary device of switching the perspectives from the viewpoints of different characters but unless that's handled well it gets confusing and annoying. Too much would have been revealed too early if we'd had Howl's viewpoint.
3. Do you think the fact that Howl is from another world (1980s Wales) detract or add to the story?
Totally adds to it. I loved this glimpse into his background. It grounds him and makes him more plausible somehow.
4. DWJ is well known for her tendancy to chuck everything at a story which sometimes leads to bits that don't quite come off. Was there anything in this story you thought didn't quite work?
Yes, Miss Angorian turning out to be a fire demon and being concealed in the guitar. That didn't work for me. Also, the episode where Howl's hair goes pink and there are howls and green slime. Played too far for laughs. I know it was written with children in mind but rather a turn-off. I'm also not sure about the scarecrow being assembled from various bits of people. The connection seemed rather tenuous and more like a not terribly well-thought-out plot device than an integral part of the story.
5. If you have seen the anime film (which is rather different to the book) did you think it caught the essence of the story or is it a different thing altogether?
I think it caught the essence but Howl was far too pretty in a girly sort of way, and Michael was much too young. In the book he's supposed to have a thing for Lettie Hatter but in the animation he looked much too young to be interested in young women, let alone be chatting one up.
On the plus side, Calcifer in the film was an endearing little creature, which he isn't in the book.
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
1. Did you find Ingary a convincing magical world?
Yes, in many ways. Magic, while possible, was also not always predictable, so people relied on charms rather than outright magic, and did things themselves rather than chance the outcome. The seven league boots were a perfect example of this. It really would have been much easier to walk in most cases!
2. The story is told very much from Sophie's point of view, does this work, or would you have liked Michael, Howl's or any of the other character's viewpoints as well?
No. It is Sophie's story. Too much of the plot would have been given away if we had had other perspectives. And I love that we see Howl through Sophie's eyes.
3. Do you think the fact that Howl is from another world (1980s Wales) detract or add to the story?
That was the bit I loved - the cross over between the worlds. Howell Jenkins was a more believable, rooted character, and I can see why Megan was so annoyed with him. I also loved the use of John Donne's poem as the spell to catch Howl. And it's a great way to introduce Donne's poetry to kids. Very intriguing.
4. DWJ is well known for her tendancy to chuck everything at a story which sometimes leads to bits that don't quite come off. Was there anything in this story you thought didn't quite work?
Miss Angorian in Ingary didn't work for me. She was more believable in Wales. She was too syrupy as 'Ben's fiancé ', although it did give her a reason to handle the guitar and thus stay in the castle, it didn't come off quite right.
5. If you have seen the anime film (which is rather different to the book) did you think it caught the essence of the story or is it a different thing altogether?
Yes and no. Howl was too nice, as was Calcifer (although Calcifer worked better in the anime). I loved the stair duel with the witch, but it really was a very different story using the same characters. I like both, but much prefer the more complex subplots and motivation in the book - Howl's digs at Sophie are a delight.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
1. Did you find Ingary a convincing magical world?
I found it a convincing magical world. There's a lot of concern about everyday practical needs like a job. It does seem to be an English small village in the cozy mystery tradition but how realistic that is seems a different question.
2. The story is told very much from Sophie's point of view, does this work, or would you have liked Michael, Howl's or any of the other character's viewpoints as well?
Telling the story from Sophie's point of view gave a consistency. Shifting point of view would have made it much harder to track what was going on and who knew what when. This is the second time I read the book and I found a strain I missed earlier. In some ways Sophie reflects the sensible old adult in a world of children and villains. You feel a lot of her aches with old age which is odd for a children's story.
3. Do you think the fact that Howl is from another world (1980s Wales) detract or add to the story?
The Howl origin is an interesting difference from the movie. In some ways it makes Ingary more convincing; Wales seems strange to them and it makes sense that Ingary is a little different when the reader sees it.
4. DWJ is well known for her tendency to chuck everything at a story which sometimes leads to bits that don't quite come off. Was there anything in this story you thought didn't quite work?
There were a few too many complications like the scarecrow and the Bakery. Still, in some ways that made it all more realistic. It also was a complicated romance.
5. If you have seen the anime film (which is rather different to the book) did you think it caught the essence of the story or is it a different thing altogether?
It caught much of the essence of the book. It did have much more emphasis on the duty and responsibility and Sophies isolation in the old age disguise. I also thought the deference given the Witch in the end seemed very Japanese.
It is a wonderful story.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
Ingary is convincing enough to be getting along with for a story - the book isn't about how magic would affect the sociology and economics of a pre-electronics society.
Taking numbers two and four together:
Sophie's point of view works - you couldn't tell the story from any other point of view, and a lot of the story is about Sophie's unreliable assumptions about what's going on. The difficulty is that there are a few things where as far as I can tell there simply isn't any way Sophie or we could have a clue. The Witch was building an ideal king out of different people's body parts isn't something that one could reasonably guess from her earlier behaviour. Miss Angorian's true nature comes a bit out of the blue. I don't think we're ever told the specific effects of the curse on Howl.
Having said that, by the standards of Diana Wynne Jones the resolution is a drawn-out and sedate affair with everything fully explained as it becomes relevant to the immediate action.
I don't know how I feel about the fact that Howl comes from Wales. When I first read it, it was something of a 'what has this got to do with the rest of the story' moment. In retrospect, it's quite fun.
It's been observed that Miyazaki has even more rushed endings than Wynne Jones does. What happens exactly at the end of Princess Mononoke? And the film of Howl's Moving Castle likewise? Both stories are largely about the relationship between Howl and Sophie; I think they're similar at Sophie's end, although Howl himself is a bit toned down in the film. Otherwise, the story alters at about the point the witch and Sophie climb the stairs together.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
I've given up reading this for the time being as I need to read something more engaging.
I may come back to it later but I am finding it too childish to enjoy. My fault, I'm sure.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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Ferdzy
Shipmate
# 8702
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Posted
1. Did you find Ingary a convincing magical world?
Well it’s a pretty good depiction of a “fairy tale” world, and as such works reasonably well. DWJ does tend to make magic do just what she wants it to do, without a consistent set of rules, which can be a little annoying. She’s a good enough writer that I can mostly ignore that though; and after all she is pretty imaginative about what she wants it to do!
2. The story is told very much from Sophie's point of view, does this work, or would you have liked Michael, Howl's or any of the other character's viewpoints as well?
It’s important that the story be told from Sophie’s point of view, because we are told by the third paragraph of the book that Sophie has a very unrealistic view of the world, and is going to be wrong about… an awful lot. The reader is then set up to determine what the truth actually is, pulled out from Sophie’s viewpoint. It makes the book a bit of a puzzle, and that’s half the fun. Another arc of the story will of course be Sophie’s realization that she’s been wrong about… an awful lot.
3. Do you think the fact that Howl is from another world (1980s Wales) detracts or adds to the story?
I found it a bit of an intrusion the first time I read the book, as it does tend to pull you out from the magic world of Ingary. On the other hand, it sets Howl up as an outsider to the society in a way that simply having him come from another “country” with the world of Ingary could not have done.
Ariel, I actually really liked the bit about Howl’s hair turning pink and the resulting green slime. Howl is in many ways the archtypical romance hero; an isolated outsider, brooding yet perfectly groomed (see: every “Regency” romance, ever). In the more “real” world, this does usually turn out to mean vain, insecure, and sulky. Yet DWJ manages to make him very sympathetic in spite of this, or maybe because of it. He seems like a real person with real faults, not just a stereotype, even as she lays on the tantrum with a trowel.
4. DWJ is well known for her tendency to chuck everything at a story which sometimes leads to bits that don't quite come off. Was there anything in this story you thought didn't quite work?
I thought it all pulled together at the end very well, actually.
5. If you have seen the anime film (which is rather different to the book) did you think it caught the essence of the story or is it a different thing altogether?
I liked the movie a lot, but it really was quite different.
There are lots of other questions I could ask, Is Fanny a wicked stepmother, would it matter if Sophie had stayed old, what do you think of the John Donne 'spell', but I'll leave it at that for now.
Of course Fanny isn’t a wicked stepmother! We’re told that as clearly as we are told anything, right at the end of the second paragraph of the book. Of course, it also takes Sophie-the-not-so-wise until page 189 to figure it out, and she still blames someone else for her having taken that view.
Another thing Sophie didn’t catch: she never figures out how old she became, but Calcifer told her that she is 77. (The reader can figure this out. She was 17, and “has lost about 60 years”.) So then it would also matter if she stayed old… she has lost 60 years off of her life. Unlike the witch, one presumes she would not be prepared to vampirize other people’s lives to live longer.
Actually, I take it back about not thinking there was anything that didn’t quite come off. I found the John Donne poem a bit contrived as a spell, and didn’t quite buy it, much as I like the poem.
Dafyd, we are told that Howl is “heartless” and “fickle” quite often. Mrs Penstemmon tells us that his contract with Calcifer will “begin a slow decline to evil” on Howl’s part. Without intervention, he will go the way of the Witch of the Waste.
One way Sophie is able to break the spell is because she has the magic gift of bringing life to things, as Mrs Penstemmon tells her in the same conversation. But I also think that the reason Howl is able to love her is that unlike all the other girls he pursues, she is forming a relationship with his actual heart at the same time as with “him”. He was not able to take it (the heart) with him to any of his other wooings, so they all came to nothing. It’s a nice touch at the end, when he is about to be reunited with his heart, that he passes out at a little rough handling of it, because “his heart is really quite soft".
Posts: 252 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ferdzy:
Dafyd, we are told that Howl is “heartless” and “fickle” quite often. Mrs Penstemmon tells us that his contract with Calcifer will “begin a slow decline to evil” on Howl’s part.
I think the nature of Howl and Calcifer's contract, which is one of the main plotlines, is made clear. The reader ought also to be able to spot that Sophie does magic before Sophie realises. It's some of the other things that are a bit hard to guess at.
Diana Wynne Jones wrote somewhere (on the internet I think) that all the women under thirty she talked to about her characters fancied Howl, and all the women over thirty fancied Chrestomanci. I don't know whether that's true. The author interview at the back of my copy says Howl is a mixture of her husband and her son so she must have put her affection for them into him.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Here are my comments FWIW:
1. Did you find Ingary a convincing magical world?
Yes and no. Like Ariel, I wondered why anyone ever did any work by hand if they could get a magic user to do a spell for them instead, but I did like the way she took fairy-tale tropes and subverted them. As the eldest of three sisters, I think it's high time the eldest sister got a fair deal.
2. The story is told very much from Sophie's point of view, does this work, or would you have liked Michael, Howl's or any of the other character's viewpoints as well?
It would have been a completely different story with someone else's viewpoint. The whole point of this story is that Sophie thinks she's an ugly failure with no magical ability, because she's the eldest and that's the way things (usually) work in Ingary. When Howl accosts her on May Day and offers to buy her a drink she finds it completely unbelievable that he might be attracted to her and runs away. The rest of the story is all about her finding out that she's wrong about herself.
I thought making her an old woman for most of the story was a masterstroke. Because she was old, she didn't care what other people thought of her and she had the confidence to argue with Howl and boss people about.
3. Do you think the fact that Howl is from another world (1980s Wales) detract or add to the story?
I think it adds to the story. Partly because you couldn't have the John Donne poem if Howl hadn't come from our world, but also because it accounts for Howl's strangeness.
4. DWJ is well known for her tendancy to chuck everything at a story which sometimes leads to bits that don't quite come off. Was there anything in this story you thought didn't quite work?
Miss Angorian. And Sophie's family turned up at the end of the story expressing a lot of concern for her, but they didn't pursue her when she ran away. Which seems odd to me, if they really cared about what happened to her.
5. If you have seen the anime film (which is rather different to the book) did you think it caught the essence of the story or is it a different thing altogether?
Yes. I thought it did capture the essence of the story (though I agree with those who said Howl is too pretty and Michael is too young; he's nearly old enough to get married, for goodness' sake), but it was a completely different thing. I liked it almost as much as I like the book, and I don't say that often about film adaptations.
I thought the character of Fanny was very interesting because Sophie's view of her was so completely at odds with what her sisters thought. I agree she isn't a Wicked Stepmother, but she *is* a standard DWJ Bad Mother; she disposes of all three girls very smartly after her husband's death and gets Sophie working herself half to death in the hatshop, while she has fun gallivanting around (I wonder whether she married the silk merchant?). She doesn't come across as a bad person exactly; just someone who is too self-centred to be trusted to look after her daughters' best interests if they conflict with hers. In that respect, she gets off fairly lightly compared with other DWJ mothers...
I think it would have mattered to Sophie if she'd stayed old. I'm not sure it would have mattered so much to Howl - he seems to have fallen in love with her while she was 'in disguise' - but it would to her.
I didn't realise it when I first read the book, but the part at the beginning where Sophie is working in the hat-shop is a very good description of what it feels like to be depressed. I didn't notice until I'd had the same experience myself.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
Okay ...
1. Did you find Ingary a convincing magical world?
Yes, as magical worlds go, it was reasonably consistent and well described though all the books. An interesting place to visit, but I’m not sure that I’d want to live there!
2. The story is told very much from Sophie's point of view, does this work, or would you have liked Michael, Howl's or any of the other character's viewpoints as well?
No, the story had to be told from Sophie’s point of view rather than anyone else’s. It was about her journey into self awareness of her gifts; place in the world etc. It wouldn’t have worked if other people had kept butting in.
3. Do you think the fact that Howl is from another world (1980s Wales) detract or add to the story?
As my gran lived in a village very like the one described, I enjoyed it. The differences between the various characters in their home worlds and Ingary was well done.
4. DWJ is well known for her tendancy to chuck everything at a story which sometimes leads to bits that don't quite come off. Was there anything in this story you thought didn't quite work?
I don’t think DWJ ever meet a kitchen sink she didn’t like! The ending works better than some of her other books as it didn’t feel so rushed and crowded. As a result it was less confusing as it felt like things were being explained and unpicked as she went along.
5. If you have seen the anime film (which is rather different to the book) did you think it caught the essence of the story or is it a different thing altogether?
Not seen it so can’t comment.
Tubbs
[ 23. March 2015, 13:50: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
1. Did you find Ingary a convincing magical world?
I thought it worked well. I really liked the beginning where it tells you this is a world where seven league boots exist. The magic made sense in that not everyone one was necessarily gifted, hence the need for Howl’s spells, but it was something you could learn.
2. The story is told very much from Sophie's point of view, does this work, or would you have liked Michael, Howl's or any of the other character's viewpoints as well?
I liked the way it stuck with Sophie’s viewpoint. The story would have been very different if it has switched, and it enabled us to be in on things such as Sophie’s magic that she doesn’t realize herself. This is very typical of DWJ that many of her protagonists don’t know their own magic, Cat in ‘Charmed Life’, Mitt in ‘Drowned Ammett’ for instance. I think it always works, it’s just that sometimes all the other bits of the story drown out the story arc of someone learning about themselves.
3. Do you think the fact that Howl is from another world (1980s Wales) detract or add to the story?
I found the bits in Wales seemed in some respects more foreign than Ingary, computer games on tape for instance. I liked the view you get of Howl as a ‘slitherer-outer’ where his sister is concerned. I wonder if Sophie and her would get on or not?
4. DWJ is well known for her tendancy to chuck everything at a story which sometimes leads to bits that don't quite come off. Was there anything in this story you thought didn't quite work?
I was rather confused with Miss Angorian. If she was the Witch of the Waste’s fire demon how come she could move freely when Calcifer could not. I’m also not at all sure that the John Donne poem worked.
5. If you have seen the anime film (which is rather different to the book) did you think it caught the essence of the story or is it a different thing altogether?
I think they are two different things. There are bits about the film which I think are better, the impending war, that is only hinted at in the book, the use of the dog (I love the scene where Sophie thinks the dog is Howl and carries him up the palace steps), Calcifer’s personality, but others, the age of Michael for instance which are better in the book. I didn’t imagine the castle as being anything like the one in the film either.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ferdzy:
Ariel, I actually really liked the bit about Howl’s hair turning pink and the resulting green slime. Howl is in many ways the archtypical romance hero; an isolated outsider, brooding yet perfectly groomed (see: every “Regency” romance, ever). In the more “real” world, this does usually turn out to mean vain, insecure, and sulky. Yet DWJ manages to make him very sympathetic in spite of this, or maybe because of it. He seems like a real person with real faults, not just a stereotype, even as she lays on the tantrum with a trowel.
This was one of the bits that totally didn't work for me. The enigmatic, self-possessed, reasonably grown up Howl suddenly starts behaving like a spoilt 10 year old. It's completely at variance with the way he's portrayed in the rest of the book. It's at this point that, like Tree Bee, I remember that the book is aimed at children, who'd probably find it very funny and maybe identify with it to some extent, but for me it actually almost spoilt the book. Luckily he did grow out of it in later chapters.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The enigmatic, self-possessed, reasonably grown up Howl suddenly starts behaving like a spoilt 10 year old.
He's enigmatic, self-possessed, reasonable grown up, vain, habitually dishonest, and a slitherer-outer. Perhaps not quite as dishonest or quite as much of a sliterer-outer as he presents himself to Sophie, but still, it's in character that when he feels like sulking he goes ahead and sulks.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
It also fits with his dose of "Man 'flu". Remember, Howl is only in his twenties. The tantrum comes when he's been set up as something of a lady killer, and he can't make any progress with Letty. He's spoilt.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I think the pouting and sulking makes him quite realistic as a teenager. Again, I'm struck by how Sophie is a much older person, and not just because of the magic transformation.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
I think it makes sense if you remember that Sophie is the eldest of three sisters, used to refereeing fights between siblings and cleaning up other people's messes; whereas Howl is the youngest in his family (Megan is evidently older than him) and probably the only boy. Judging by the way Megan treats him, he was spoiled rotten as a child. I expect she was supposed to look after him and got the blame every time he did something wrong. He apparently didn't notice he was being spoilt at the time - judging by his behaviour in 'The House of Many Ways' - but he obviously was (can you tell my oldest-sister prejudices are showing?).
And if he's in his early twenties he isn't quite grown-up yet, according to the latest psychological research.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I've been thinking about the difference between the relationships of Howl and Calcifer, and the Witch and Angorian. I think that the way they started being different, with Howl not motivated by a search for power, may have influenced the ways the contracts were enacted, allowing the greater freedom allowed to Angorian by comparison with Calcifer.
And I have a thought about the sulk, which will need re-reading. Sulks are generally intended to get a reaction from the people around - so what reaction did Howl want at that moment, and from whom? Is he, by then, trying to get Sophie to break out of her own self-spelling?
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Rereading - no he wasn't.
And I've just rewatched the film on Channel 4. He was so soppy in that version (despite taking on the war).
[ 02. April 2015, 18:09: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
This discussion has made me think about the whole relationship between Howl and Sophie. Is he the sort of bloke that is looking for a woman to boss him about and is she the sort of woman that wants a man to mother?
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
I think it's more complicated than that. I don't think Howl is looking for someone to mother him - he gets quite angry when Sophie tries to mend his suit and makes a mistake with the enlargement spell. Perhaps Sophie is so used to 'mothering' her sisters and organising the rest of the family that she has to be educated out of thinking she has to fix everything personally? It's as if she thinks she has to earn her place in the household by doing the cleaning, and Howl has to risk his life rescuing her from the Witch to finally convince her that he wants her to stick around because he likes her.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
We've just watched the film, which we found bonkers, beautiful and entertaining.
We loved Calcifer and the dog and wasn't Howl pretty?
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I find myself wishing that DWJ had written, as she did with Christopher Chant, Howl's backstory. The youngest, I expect, (coddled and spoilt, like Twinkle) with all the savings spent on making sure he did not have to go down the mine, rather than on Megan, who got the house, and a justifiable chip on her shoulder. Him going for his doctorate, and tripping over notes and hints left by Ben Sullivan, who never submitted his thesis, before arriving in Ingary, where he finds out what he is capable of, but feels guilty about Megan, and slithers out from any responsibility for getting a proper job back in Wales.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
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Posted
If Diana Wynne-Jones throws everything at books without planning, is there a back story to find? Does she think things through to that extent?
Some of the issues discussed above feel like a bit of fun for the children she is writing for, like the green slime. Howl's reactions feel as if he's taken in another waif and stray who needs help and rather than being grateful and accepting the help and getting on with removing the fire demon contract with Calcifer, Sophie is interfering, leading to some inevitable irritation of being organised by another bossy older sister when he's managing to avoid his blood relative version. (And I am an older sister too.)
I haven't watched the film yet, although I own it (left behind by daughter when she went back to university), but still loved the book on rereading.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
By DWJ standards it seems like a remarkably good family background?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I like your sketching out of Howl's backstory Penny S. I admit to being a bit confused by the whole Ben Sullivan bit, and your suggestions made a lot of sense. Mind you I still think something set in early 1980s Wales would feel more remote and straneg than something set in Ingary.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
It did occur to me that Ben Sullivan's knowledge provided Angorian with her route into Wales, which was obviously different from Howl's. Though I'm not sure how a fire demon managed to get a teaching post at a time when proper qualifications were required. And Wales was so full of teachers that they overflowed in huge numbers into England.
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