Ship of Fools: I don't believe in Jesus - is it hypocritical to go to church?

Thread: I don't believe in Jesus - is it hypocritical to go to church? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Questing (# 18370) on :

Hi Ship of fools community, new here
Have a dilemma. I was brought up C of E Christian, confirmed and went regularly. My Mum was a really good practical Christian. In my mid-twenties I saw a ,wayside pulpit' poster which said " If Christianity was against the law, would you be found guilty?"
Realised I wouldn't...
Since then really only attended intermittently, Christmas, weddings, funerals etc
Recently taken sick friend to local church, great welcome, lovely community, all hoping I'll come regularly
But... I feel a great hypocrite saying that I believe Jesus was born for me and died for my sins when I don't. I believe he was a prophet but no more. I believe in living a good life and kindness. But I like the people in this church and don't want to offend them. Advice please! If I talk to the Vicar at this stage it all gets a bit personal. I'd like a range of advice to mull over. Thanks!

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Welcome, and thank you for baring your soul.

It's always better to be honest. You don't, though, need to tell everyone what you believe and don't believe at every occasion in season and out of season. You're there because you're taking a sick friend to church - which is a work of mercy anyway. That's a good reason to be there.

Concerned people who discover you don't internally sign up to everything might well pray for you, but it doesn't hurt!

[ 23. March 2015, 08:35: Message edited by: Enoch ]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I agree with Enoch, both in his advice and in welcoming you to the Ship.
There are lots of reasons why people go to church and some of those reasons do not depend on what you actually believe. If you want to go, or feel you ought to go on soem occasion, then do; you don't have to say anything you don't believe (e.g. in the Creed).

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Church is by definition (not always in practice, more's the pity) a place where outsiders are welcome. Please do come! But don't outrage your own conscience by saying or doing things you don't agree with. For instance, if you don't believe the Apostles' Creed, don't say it. Go ahead and stand up if you want, so you don't stick out like a sore thumb; but you don't have to say the words. Similarly, don't go up to communion. Nobody's likely to ask you why not, and if they do, you can say "it's a personal matter, thank you for your concern." (it's not their business anyway)

Going to church is not a declaration of belief in or allegiance to anything, anymore than going to a football game is. And goodness knows there are plenty of "I hate football" people at those, who are there to oblige a spouse, or ....

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

I agree with all of the above, the OP and the follow-ups: the welcome to the Ship and the general welcome to go to church.

I doubt pretty near all of it and go because I like it. I have felt that there is often too much emphasis on belief and too little on practice. Thus, I go to church with the general hope that there is something, with scepticism and doubt as my companions. I also go because I like to hear the choir, the cantor singing the psalm, and the organ vibrations in my bones: a selfish aesthetic reason.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Keep going as you are. But also be open to the fact that you might learn / experience new things as well, which may make your views change. I doubt that anyone stays exactly the same with regard to their faith views all their life.

Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :

If you want a range of opinions, the opposite point of view is expressed in
spiritual but not religious

and in Ingob's followup post further down the same page. That's his opinion not mine but you might be interested in the discussion on that other topic.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Questing:

Recently taken sick friend to local church, great welcome, lovely community, all hoping I'll come regularly

Well, going 'regularly' can mean all sorts of things. Once every couple of months or high days and holy days only is regular.

The good thing (some may say) about the CofE is that you don't have to give any more to the life of the church than you want to. And the CofE has a history of including people whose beliefs are hazy at best, or even highly unorthodox.

The downside of all this individualism, I think, is that if you can't share in more intimate spiritual activities, such as Bible study groups or praying for other members, etc., then the sense of community at church might end up seeming a bit superficial. It might feel like a rather cuddly social club for people who'd rather not get too close to each other. But then again, maybe not. Only you know what you hope to get out of churchgoing, and whether the particular church you're thinking of could satisfy this need.

Posted by Gwalchmai (# 17802) on :

Go along to a discussion group and you will be surprised how many people do not sign up to the full slate of beliefs. In my church a lot of us don't think intercessory prayer works, don't believe simplistic statements like "Christ died for our sins", and some prefer your view of Jesus as a good man and a prophet, but do not see him as God incarnate.

The great thing about the Anglican church is that nobody will ask you to sign up to anything (except perhaps the coffee rota) so whether you have great faith or virtually none, you will be made welcome.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

Welcome to the Ship, Questing. I'm sure someone will be around to pour you a glass of GIN or sherry soon. While we're waiting, here's a link to the Ten Commandments, just in case you missed it somehow, along with the All Saints Welcome Thread .

Fair winds and following seas!

Barefoot Friar
Eccles. Host

[ 23. March 2015, 23:51: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Go along to a discussion group and you will be surprised how many people do not sign up to the full slate of beliefs. In my church a lot of us don't think intercessory prayer works, don't believe simplistic statements like "Christ died for our sins", and some prefer your view of Jesus as a good man and a prophet, but do not see him as God incarnate.

The great thing about the Anglican church is that nobody will ask you to sign up to anything (except perhaps the coffee rota) so whether you have great faith or virtually none, you will be made welcome.

And in quite a lot of the CofE churches I've attended over the last 35 years, all of which have had Holy Communion as the main Sunday morning service, there have been from time to time one or two people who never took Communion. I've never heard this commented on or questioned, or known them to be in any way regarded by anyone as less than full members of the congregation.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

Hostly Shoes ON

After consulting with my colleagues, I believe the best place for this is All Saints. Hang on to your tippets -- going up!

Hostly Shoes OFF

Posted by Wet Kipper (# 1654) on :

It may have been from a sermon, or an adlib in a song somewhere, but the phrase
You don't have to believe, to belong
comes to mind

[ 24. March 2015, 12:17: Message edited by: Wet Kipper ]

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Questing:
I feel a great hypocrite saying that I believe Jesus was born for me and died for my sins when I don't.

I presume this refers to saying the creed during the service. I don't think everyone has to say this and it is accepted that some present in a service won't believe it and therefore may not want to say it.

On the other hand if you felt so strongly that you preferred to remain sitting to show clearly that you didn't believe it then that might be awkward, but I would hope most people would be pleased that an unbeliever was in their midst and be able to cope with that without attacks of dizziness or palpitations.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

I used to have a strong, active faith.

I don't any more, but I still go to Church most weeks. I have so many friends there and I still love the community. I do tell them where my faith is at, if asked. But I am rarely asked.

[Smile]

Posted by Questing (# 18370) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Questing:
Hi Ship of fools community, new here
Have a dilemma. I was brought up C of E Christian, confirmed and went regularly. My Mum was a really good practical Christian. In my mid-twenties I saw a ,wayside pulpit' poster which said " If Christianity was against the law, would you be found guilty?"
Realised I wouldn't...
Since then really only attended intermittently, Christmas, weddings, funerals etc
Recently taken sick friend to local church, great welcome, lovely community, all hoping I'll come regularly
But... I feel a great hypocrite saying that I believe Jesus was born for me and died for my sins when I don't. I believe he was a prophet but no more. I believe in living a good life and kindness. But I like the people in this church and don't want to offend them. Advice please! If I talk to the Vicar at this stage it all gets a bit personal. I'd like a range of advice to mull over. Thanks!

Posted by Questing (# 18370) on :

Thank you to everyone who has replied to my post, and for the friendly welcome to the ship. I had been looking for exactly this sortbofvplace to pose questions without the aqua redness of people not liking the answers...
Friendliest forum I have come across.
Apologies that I haven't replied sooner, a lot to mull over. I'm sure I'm not the only person who doesn't believe, and sure that those who have suggested that nobody will ask are right. (A very British approach - in Turkey a few years ago several people asked in detail about my religion. )
I think I will continue to go, in an irregular way. And stand for the Creed, but not say it. Thinking about why I want to go, some of it is familiarity and comfort in being within a service I understand, as I don't feel the same in churches with unstructured services. And I do love being in a church. So maybe part of the reason is feeling the historical continuity of prayer in a particular place

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Questing:
I think I will continue to go, in an irregular way. And stand for the Creed, but not say it.

Join the club! Although to be honest I think I do believe the creed, although not all the time and not with the same degree of confidence all the way through. Sometimes I say it despite not really believing it as an act of obedience. Perhaps that makes me a hypocrite, but it's hard to get through life without some hypocrisy.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

The truth is that very few people who attend a particular church will agree with what that church proclaims that it believes. While you may be different because your issues are more fundamental, that is actually just a matter of scale.

I would say, go to church if it helps you, and you find it a positive experience. If people ask you about what you believe, tell them, and make an effort to engage with others to see where you can engage with them.

In the end, if they reject you because of what you say you believe, you will have to deal with that, and make a decision as to whether you can stay. But you may find - and I really hope you do - that people can accept you whatever. Faith communities should be (but are very often not) places where you can explore your faith and grow, wherever you are starting from.

I would say, this is where you are now. Be prepared to change again. You may regain your belief, or you may not. Spiritual growth is just about being prepared to learn and engage with others.

Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I would say, go to church if it helps you, and you find it a positive experience. If people ask you about what you believe, tell them, and make an effort to engage with others to see where you can engage with them.

Let's face it, I'm a believer and sometimes church does absolutely *nothing* for me! Not always, of course ...

Leader - We go in peace to love and serve the Lord.
Congregation - Through gritted teeth, Amen.
[Two face]

So yes, if it helps, go. The Lord sees your heart and will understand.

Mrs. S, on occasions wishing she didn't have to

Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :

Welcome. [Smile]

I agree with what's been said. If you want to be at the church meetings, go to them. You know you don't agree with everything that's said or with the majority of the people there but you sound like someone who is respectful of people who don't believe the same things as you do. I hope you are treated with the same courtesy.

My set of beliefs has changed over the past few years and I no longer share all the beliefs that most of the people in my church would hold. There are words I don't say and lines of songs I don't sing, but I continue to go because it's a loving community where I have a number of precious relationships and where I can express some - not all - of my spirituality. What unites us is more important than what divides us.

Nen - this is the day that the Lord has made. Let us refer all complaints to him. [Biased]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Go along to a discussion group and you will be surprised how many people do not sign up to the full slate of beliefs. In my church a lot of us don't think intercessory prayer works, don't believe simplistic statements like "Christ died for our sins", and some prefer your view of Jesus as a good man and a prophet, but do not see him as God incarnate.

The great thing about the Anglican church is that nobody will ask you to sign up to anything (except perhaps the coffee rota) so whether you have great faith or virtually none, you will be made welcome.

I suppose it's fairly straightforward if almost everyone in the congregation takes the same sort of highly liberal stance; more complicated if you seem to be the only one, or one of a small number.

But as you say, the typical CofE congregation doesn't really emphasise the faith of individuals. We don't know if the congregation in question is 'typical', though....

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Questing:
... I do love being in a church. So maybe part of the reason is feeling the historical continuity of prayer in a particular place

Despite being a boringly conservative person who does believe most of the Christian palaver I suggest that "historical continuity of prayer in a particular place" pretty much means you and I are in the pews for the same reason! Welcome aboard - and welcome to any church I'm at!

Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :

Now I come to think of it, our vicar - and his wife, one of the readers - always say in their welcome that they are very glad to see you, whatever brings you to our church, and that you should not feel pressured to say anything you can't sign up to.

This is in direct contrast to our previous church, when the vicar once announced that if you were there for the wrong reason you weren't welcome!

[Killing me]

It seems to me, if he's got you through that door, at least he has a chance to talk to you!

(whoever he might be ...)

Mrs. S, can't remember a single other thing that chap said!

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Welcome - from one of the small percentage of atheists on board! [Smile]

I was a church-goer for half my life, and a firm believer in God, although from childhood I knew that virgin birth, resurrection, etc were stories, not true facts.
If I was in a position to help someone get to church, then I would, but I would not be able to stay. That is not because I would feel it was hypocritical to stay, but because I would find it too hard to stop myself sighing audibly at the words of the service and the hymns!! Their rhythm and pattern create harmonious sounds, but that would not be enough to keep me there.

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