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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: April Book Club ~ The Miniaturist
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
This month's book is The Miniaturist by Jessie Burton, which I would be reading now if I had downloaded it properly to the tablet. It got very mixed reviews but was also Waterstone's book of the month a few months ago.
Questions will arrive for the 20th
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
I started a couple of days ago and am up to page 83. The plethora of characters didn't endear me to it at first. I had to go back and make notes as to who each person was and have only just got to the stage where I don't need to look at those notes every couple of pages.
The story is just getting going now, which is drawing me in. Plenty of intrigue and quite an interesting use of the sense of smell.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I read it a couple of months ago and was a bit disappointed, but will be interested to participate in discussion on it.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Just finished reading it. Not quite sure what I made of it, so looking forward to the discussion.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Can I join in? I heard the abridged version when it was Radio 4's Book of the Week, and have been meaning to read the book.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
Almost half way through now. The person of the miniaturist thus far plays little more than an incidental role. Interesting as the affairs of the household are, it doesn't quite feel as though it's properly got motoring yet. It's not that it's slow, just that we're exploring lots of alleyways and only occasionally crossing the main road.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
Finished. Should be an interesting discussion.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I've finished too, so a day early, some questions:
- How convincing did you find the depiction of the seventeenth century life in Amsterdam? One of the reviews described the detail being as sumptuous as Dutch interior paintings. Do you agree?
- How important do you think the miniaturist is within the story? Or do you agree she was a McGuffin?
- Did you relate to the characters and their stories?
- How credible did you find the plot?
- Why do you think the name Petronella was echoed?
- Did you find the appendices helpful? (My Kindle edition had some translations/definitions of Dutch words used in the story and a list of monetary equivalents.) What do you think the purpose of the appendices were?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
1. How convincing did you find the depiction of the seventeenth century life in Amsterdam? One of the reviews described the detail being as sumptuous as Dutch interior paintings. Do you agree?
Yes, I was convinced. The descriptions were very visual. I'm no expert in the era , the art or the country though.
2.How important do you think the miniaturist is within the story? Or do you agree she was a McGuffin?
It's frustrating that the works of the miniaturist were not explained or resolved, so I can see the McGuffin argument could be valid. ( I'd never heard of this concept before).
But the delivery of the miniature objects and the shock their discovery caused added a mystery and frisson of excitement to the story. The red mark on the dog and the swollen abdomen on the Marin doll; yes, why, how?
3. Did you relate to the characters and their stories?
I could relate to Nella, to her difficulty in finding her place in the new household. I was impressed by her resourcefulness and her faithfulness to her husband.
4. How credible did you find the plot?
Not credible. Apart from the fanciful miniaturist storyline I found the scenario around Thea's birth and Marin's death unrealistic. But as a story, it didn't matter that much.
5. Why do you think the name Petronella was echoed?
Now you mention it, I don't know why. I did find it realistic initially as one often comes across others with the same name as yourself.
6. Did you find the appendices helpful? (My Kindle edition had some translations/definitions of Dutch words used in the story and a list of monetary equivalents.) What do you think the purpose of the appendices were?
Not helpful as I only came across them as I finished the book. They might have been more enlightening if they were at the front of the book so I could have referred to them while reading. As it was I didn't feel their lack.
I did enjoy this book, with reservations that I couldn't put my finger on. Your questions have helped me identify some of them.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
1. How convincing did you find the depiction of the seventeenth century life in Amsterdam? One of the reviews described the detail being as sumptuous as Dutch interior paintings. Do you agree?
I think on the whole it was a convincing world, but I don't know know enough about 17th Century Holland to say if it was a convincing portrait of life in Amsterdam at that period in history.
2. How important do you think the miniaturist is within the story? Or do you agree she was a McGuffin?
I thought she was a total McGuffin and I wish Burton had cut her out. It added an un-necessary layer to the story. The miniture house was enough symbolism if Buton wanted us to think that Nella was living a pretend life as a married woman,
3. Did you relate to the characters and their stories?
I thought Marin was interesting, and I wish that the author had spent more time rounding off her edges to make her more credible. An intelligent woman who wants to run a business and is conflicted by her religious faith and her passions would have been interesting. As it was she seemed a lot of the time to be deliniated by herring or candied walnuts, rather than any subtle nuances of character.
Johann had potential as a character, though I don't think he'd have been quite as spineless about his marriage or his fate when caught out with Jack.
4. How credible did you find the plot?
If you cut out the minituraist thread there was a credible story about a sham marriage and things being not quite what they seem.
5. Why do you think the name Petronella was echoed?
Is the miniaturist Petronella supposed to be what the married Petronella should be? I don't really have a clue.
6.Did you find the appendices helpful? (My Kindle edition had some translations/definitions of Dutch words used in the story and a list of monetary equivalents.) What do you think the purpose of the appendices were?
I thought they were there to show you what a lot of research went into the book. I found the Dutch words, dropped into the text in a similar way to raisins in one of the endless pastries they seemed to eat a bit tiresome.
I actually quite enjoyed the book - I read it on holiday and it was an entertaining read - once I'd got past the confusing begnning.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
- How convincing did you find the depiction of the seventeenth century life in Amsterdam? One of the reviews described the detail being as sumptuous as Dutch interior paintings. Do you agree?
I thought that the descriptions were a strength of this book, but I wondered as I read it how much to believe or otherwise. - How important do you think the miniaturist is within the story? Or do you agree she was a McGuffin?
I felt that the miniaturist built the fear and claustrophobia within the story, or at least was meant to, and that there were meant to be thoughts about fate and outside control. I think without that character within the book some of the story lines would have had less impact and others more. - Did you relate to the characters and their stories?
I thought Nella and Cornelia had some heft as characters but felt that so many characters were left sketchy - which when the book was from the point of view of Nella, might make sense. - How credible did you find the plot?
The story about Johannes made me wonder a lot. There seemed to be a lot unknown there - was the story told by the Meermans and Jack a false story of revenge? The unconventionality of household, Marin and Otto's story - surely in this stultifying environment people were far more careful. - Why do you think the name Petronella was echoed?
I wondered if another of the miniaturist's recipients would have been given their own name too, and whether it as another indication of a puppeteer pulling the strings. - [Did you find the appendices helpful? (My Kindle edition had some translations/definitions of Dutch words used in the story and a list of monetary equivalents.) What do you think the purpose of the appendices were?
I only found them after I read the book, so didn't find them very helpful. But I did wonder about the purpose, and also thought that they were there to show how much research had gone into the book.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I read the book back in February, so I'll be answering based on what lingers with me a few months later. I will say this is a book I found hard to get into, even though it sounds like exactly the sort of thing I normally enjoy. I started reading it early in the new year, laid it aside when it didn't really grab me, and then finished it several weeks later. I wish I had liked it more than I did, and I can't fully explain why it didn't engage me more.
To the questions!!
quote:
How convincing did you find the depiction of the seventeenth century life in Amsterdam? One of the reviews described the detail being as sumptuous as Dutch interior paintings. Do you agree?
I think it probably was very detailed, and may well have been accurate, although like some others who've posted here, I don't know the time period well enough to judge that. One of the main reasons I read so much historical fiction is that it's my TARDIS -- I want to feel like I've really visited another time and place. For some reason I thought there was a lot of great detail in this book but I never really felt immersed in that world.
How important do you think the miniaturist is within the story? Or do you agree she was a McGuffin?
This was definitely the thing that irritated me most about the story. I thought the author set up a really intriguing mystery with the miniaturist, and part of what did keep me reading to the end was hoping I'd find out who the miniaturist was and how she could know these things, sometimes before they even happened. I did not feel that was adequately explained at all and there was no pay-off for the big mystery. Very disappointing.
Did you relate to the characters and their stories?
I wanted to! Petronella is the kind of character I would normally relate to and whose fate would interest me greatly, but something about the way the book was written kept me feeling distant, as though the characters were always a few steps away and I could never get close to them.
How credible did you find the plot?
This is the sad thing -- just a couple of months after reading it I can't even remember that much about the plot. It did have some interesting twists and turns -- I was particularly interested in how Johann's trial would turn out. Having looked at a plot summary to refresh my memory, I don't think there was anything about the plot as such that struck me as non credible -- just, again, that it didn't engage my interest as much as I'd hoped it would.
Why do you think the name Petronella was echoed?
I'd actually forgotten that it was. Is the author trying to do something clever here? Instead of solving the intriguing mystery of the miniaturist that she's set up, is she trying to suggest something weirdly mystical about Petronella also, in some way, being the one who observes and comments on her own life? I don't know. I just know that it didn't work for me.
This was a book that had a lot of potential, but for me as a reader, most of that potential remained unrealized. I don't think it achieved what it set out to do, at least not as well as it could.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I'm still reading. I enjoyed the Radio 4 adaptation, but I'm enjoying the book less, possibly because I know what's going to happen.
However, How convincing did you find the depiction of the seventeenth century life in Amsterdam?
Like others, I know nothing of C17th Amsterdam. But surely, a wealthy man with a large house would have had more than two servants? The amount of work involved in the dinner for the Meermans, with only 24 hours notice, sounds too much for two servants. It's possible Marin bought, or ordered, the food, but Nella did nothing.
Within 11 days of Nella's arrival, Cornelia has altered at least some of Nella's too-large dresses, in addition to cooking, cleaning, laundry (unless the laundry is sent out). Each dress must have involved several hours work - it just seems implausible.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I'm not reviewing it because I gave it up after about fifty pages. My impression by that point was in agreement with Trudy's review. I just wasn't feeling Nella. I wanted her to bring the bird up to her room that first night and I had hoped she was going to be the miniaturist herself to deal with the boredom of her life.
I love an historical, atmospheric novel, but this time I felt outside the atmosphere rather than drawn in by it. Maybe we were supposed to feel once removed, as though we were peering into a doll house?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
What's surprising me is that I was quite enthralled by the Radio 4 version, which was IIRC about ten 15 minute episodes, but I'm not really enjoying the book. Even allowing for the removal of the "I wonder what's going to happen?" factor, I was expecting to enjoy it more.
I'm on p145, so only a third of the way through.
Did you find the appendices helpful? (My Kindle edition had some translations/definitions of Dutch words used in the story and a list of monetary equivalents.) What do you think the purpose of the appendices were?
I wouldn't have spotted them till the end of the book if this thread hadn't alerted me to their existence. I don't think they're particularly helpful - I knew what the Bourse, guilders and pattens were, and could work out that hutspot was hotpot. The other terms would have been more useful as footnotes in the text itself.
The salary comparison just left me wondering why Johannes didn't use some of his 40,000 guilders a year to employ another servant, presumably for no more than 300 guilders a year.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I was disappointed too. So much detail that still failed to give a satisfying authenticity. And a plot that felt sieve-like even before so much was left hanging unresolved.
If I hadn't been leading this one of the three I suggested I wouldn't have finished it either. I really enjoyed Howl's Moving Castle and Arcanum
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
I was disappointed in terms of having felt mislead as to what to expect, but I think it is a good book. If one comes with the expectation of it being an historical novel about a miniaturist, then it does fall some way short of the mark.
But if you think of it as a sensation novel about a sham marriage, then it is really rather good. Burton's pacing was excellent, so as a storyteller she did very well for a debut author. It's just that I'm not sure the story she ended up writing was the same as the one she intended to write when she began.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I felt most of the historical details felt right - the tallow candles for everyday, the beeswax candles for best, the descriptions of the food etc. I'm enjoying that aspect of the book.
The aspect that doesn't ring true is Cornelia, a servant who does the rough work (mopping, putting coals into the braziers, scrubbing) but also does the highly skilled needlework necessary to alter a costly gown.
I realise the plot requires a small household. Johannes has created a tightly knit group dependent on him and therefore loyal to him - Marin, his sister, Otto, who is stared at wherever he goes, Cornelia, the orphan, and Nella, fatherless, penniless, and far away from her mother in Assendelft. An extra servant, or a seamstress coming to the house to do alterations, increases the risk of gossip. So I realise that in this, any deviation from historical accuracy is a necessary plot device.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
How convincing did you find the depiction of the seventeenth century life in Amsterdam? One of the reviews described the detail being as sumptuous as Dutch interior paintings. Do you agree?
I felt that details were convincing, other than the lack of servants, which I think was a necessary to the plot. The descriptions of food etc were one of the books strengths.
How important do you think the miniaturist is within the story? Or do you agree she was a McGuffin?
Yes, I agree that she was a McGuffin.
Did you relate to the characters and their stories?
Yes, to a certain extent. If the miniaturist had been removed altogether, and the focus had been on the interplay between the characters, I think I would have related to them more. I had a lot of sympathy for Agnes Meermans, seeing her one chance at fortune slipping away for no obvious reason.
How credible did you find the plot?
Apart from the Miniaturist, I found it credible. However, the tension over the sugar seemed implausible. Why didn't Johannes just sell it? Why all the faffing about? Why not just sell it locally? Why go to Venice, without samples?
Why do you think the name Petronella was echoed?
No idea.
Did you find the appendices helpful? (My Kindle edition had some translations/definitions of Dutch words used in the story and a list of monetary equivalents.) What do you think the purpose of the appendices were?
I found them of limited use.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I'm not even critiquing it as a historical novel at all -- I think the historical detail was probably quite accurate and certainly believable, though now that others have pointed it out I can see that the small size of the household might have been unrealistic. I'm critiquing it more as a novel, per se -- the characters and plot didn't engage me, which is really the most important thing. My litmus test for a novel is, if all the main characters died in a fire twenty pages before the end of the book, would I care? Would I feel a sense of loss?
In this case, not much. So somehow, it didn't connect with me, but I find it hard to pinpoint exactly why. It certainly wasn't anything to do with the accuracy or inaccuracy of the historical detail. When a book fails to grab me this way it's usually something to do with voice -- just the way it's written either draws me in and makes the characters real to me, or fails to do so.
So yeah, my real beef with the book is that it didn't pass my "die in a fire" test.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
-
quote:
- How convincing did you find the depiction of the seventeenth century life in Amsterdam? One of the reviews described the detail being as sumptuous as Dutch interior paintings. Do you agree?
I read this several months ago, and answer from memory. The details provided seemed only semi-convincing to me, but this is due mostly to what I'd call "21st-century attitudes" toward 17th-century details.
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quote:
- How important do you think the miniaturist is within the story? Or do you agree she was a McGuffin?
I was very disappointed in how the author used this character. The story could have been written without this device. Moreover, the device could have been the basis of an engaging story in and of itself. It's as though the author tried to weld a mystery with supernatural (or spy-intrigue) elements to a Jane Eyre / Rebecca style romance novel. Didn't work for me.
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- Did you relate to the characters and their stories?
The "romance" aspect of the characters didn't engage me at all, but then romance novels in general never do. Too much introspection and speculation, where real-life people would ask questions and raise objections. The story arcs were unsuccessfully blended, IMO.
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- How credible did you find the plot?
For me, "plot(s)." And they became less and less credible as it became clearer as the novel went along that the miniatures were just an interesting idea unsuccessfully inserted into a sort of romance.
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- Why do you think the name Petronella was echoed?
As I read this some time back, I don't recall this.
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quote:
- Did you find the appendices helpful? (My Kindle edition had some translations/definitions of Dutch words used in the story and a list of monetary equivalents.) What do you think the purpose of the appendices were?
Somewhat helpful in translating some of the Dutch terms.
Overall, I was very disappointed with what had seemed a promising story line.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Mrs Shrew
Ship's Mother
# 8635
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Posted
I received this book for Christmas and read it over new year. At first I found it quite gripping it like others I was ultimately disappointed because it didn't really feel like it went anywhere. I also would not say it passed the "die in a fire" test.
It felt maybe a little like the author had not really decided what to do about the miniaturist so just didn't finish that plot off.
The print version also had the dictionary bit at the end. It was not terribly useful to me either, as a result.
I was glad I finished it but would not recommend it.
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"The goal of life is not to make other people in your own image, it is to understand that they, too, are in God's image" (Orfeo)
Was "mummyfrances".
Posts: 703 | From: York, England | Registered: Oct 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
As a more positive comment, I was at a Study Day at the Globe yesterday, on The Merchant of Venice, and realised much of what I'd been absorbed about being a merchant in the 14th century from this book was relevant.
It doesn't make me like The Miniaturist any more, though as the distortions to fit the sieve-like plot into this world meant I didn't engage with the characters.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Shrew:
It felt maybe a little like the author had not really decided what to do about the miniaturist so just didn't finish that plot off.
Nail, head of, hit square on.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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