Thread: St George's Day Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=028261
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
I was thinking St George's Day ought to be a bank holiday, and we could celebrate it with some traditional English things, like cream teas, Morris dancing, and grumbling about the weather.
Any other suitable suggestions for marking the day?
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
In other words, treat exactly the same as at the moment!
Posted by St. Stephen the Stoned (# 9841) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In other words, treat exactly the same as at the moment!
Except that it isn't a Bank Holiday, so those who still w*rk don't get the day off.
(Bank Holidays in the UK are generally (always?) on a Monday, and St George's Day generally isn't.)
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
I hadn't noticed any cream teas or Morris dancing in my area, it seemed to be business as usual everywhere I went.
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on
:
Losing to Germany on penalties. Any half-way competent team will do if Germany are unavailable.
A more serious suggestion would be to read some Shakespeare. Aloud to enjoy the sounds of the words. You don't have to do voices. As Shakespeare and Cervantes both died on the same day (appproximately), it would also be appropriate for those less patriotically minded to assault a few windmills.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
Well, the Scouts always celebrate St. George's Day - or the Sunday nearest to it.
Posted by M. (# 3291) on
:
I did see a dragon at East Croydon station yesterday, checking its phone.
M.
Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on
:
I think I must have taken this on St George's Day.
AG
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
It tends to be right-wing nutters like UKIP who want a bank holiday for S. George.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It tends to be right-wing nutters like UKIP who want a bank holiday for S. George.
Let's not start casting political aspersions, please. I'd like to keep the tone of this thread light, preferably whimsical. The Irish have St Patrick's Day off. The Scots have St Andrew's Day off. The Welsh ought to have St David's Day and the English ought to have St George's Day. Most people would welcome an extra day off, surely.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
Surely Morris Dancers aren't allowed out in public before May 1st?
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I did see a dragon at East Croydon station yesterday, checking its phone.
In the hours I spend on East Croydon station, the thing I can't see clearly is where the trains are going.
I went to mass at St Michael's Croydon. What more can you do to mark a holiday?
Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on
:
If England had a half-way believable saint then his day might be more memorable. St. David - sure! St. Patrick, fine. But St. George? Who the hell was he? Some guy that the crusaders heard about on the way to Jerusalem? Please!! Give us St. Cuthbert or St. Alban or any saint who has actually been to England.
Posted by Roselyn (# 17859) on
:
I wished a staff person at St George Bank a Happy Day and when she looked confused explained to her that it was indeed St George's Day. Sadly there were no gifts of free money available.
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
:
The problem with having a St George's Day bank holiday is that if you had a late-ish Easter, you'd get three consecutive holiday weekends. Personally, I'd be all in favour of that, but you'd get lots of indignant spluttering from the slaves of Mammon.
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
... The Scots have St Andrew's Day off ...
Really? We didn't when I lived in Scotland.
When I lived in Northern Ireland, St. Patrick's Day was a bank holiday, but not a universal public holiday; the Roman Catholic schools tended to close, but the non-denominational ones didn't. The University where I worked had a rather odd policy: if you wanted to take St. Patrick's Day off, they wouldn't/couldn't stop you (as you could claim it was a religious observance), and I don't think you even needed to put in for annual leave, but it wasn't until a year or so before I left that they got a new Vice-Chancellor and he decided that it would be added as an extra holiday.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The problem with having a St George's Day bank holiday is that if you had a late-ish Easter, you'd get three consecutive holiday weekends. Personally, I'd be all in favour of that, but you'd get lots of indignant spluttering from the slaves of Mammon.
And also from those of who are self-employed and don't get paid public holidays and the like.
I can remember a Punch article decades ago on this. It suggested a battle cry "For England and St George", and a theme of putting down the petty nationalisms of the Scots, Irish and Welsh.
Posted by Teilhard (# 16342) on
:
The Major: "St. George's Day, old boy
!!!"
Basil Fawlty: "He killed the hideous fire breathing beast, didn't he
???"
Polly: "Ran it through with a lance, I believe
"
Basil: "Better than marrying it
"
The Major: "But he didn't have to kill it, did he
??? Could have just not shown up at the church
"
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The problem with having a St George's Day bank holiday is that if you had a late-ish Easter, you'd get three consecutive holiday weekends. Personally, I'd be all in favour of that, but you'd get lots of indignant spluttering from the slaves of Mammon.
And also from those of who are self-employed and don't get paid public holidays and the like.
Quite. A few years ago, we had a royal wedding thrown into the mix, so we had Good Friday and Easter Monday, the following week was the May Day bank holiday and Friday of the same week the wedding. That led to three consecutive short weeks, the third of which was only three days long. If that made me a slave to Mammon, then so be it, but the bills still need to be paid. Ask any employed person on a salary to take that amount of unpaid leave in such a short space of time and see what the response is.
I'm all in favour of celebrating our patron saint but, like Jonah the Whale, I wish it was an English saint such as St Dunstan, St Alban, St Edmund or even St Augustine who wasn't English but is reputed to have introduced Christianity to these shores.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
... The Scots have St Andrew's Day off ...
Really? We didn't when I lived in Scotland.
I checked that on the internet (which is always right) before posting and it seems to have become a fact in 2007.
St Patrick's Day in Ireland is a bank holiday with a parade through Dublin. In the days when I lived there I was expected to go to church to an Irish-language Mass in the morning; once the holy bit was over we could get down to enjoying ourselves, having lunch out, and watching the parade, which was only a one-day thing in those days but has now become a massive three-day festival.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
... The Scots have St Andrew's Day off ...
Really? We didn't when I lived in Scotland.
I checked that on the internet (which is always right) before posting and it seems to have become a fact in 2007.
The Scots get a Parliament and they run around giving themselves extra holidays....but it is a suitably dreich one, being observed on the last Friday in November. I used to use it to do all my Christmas shopping.
I think if you are going to have it, there should be Re-enactments. Guilds of St George should have spent months building dragons out of wood, wire and canvas, stuffed with fireworks and mounted on wheels. St George would be one of the Spanish gigantes. The combat should surge through the pedestrianised precincts, the dancing crowds intoxicated with music and intoxicants swirling past the Poundstretchers and charity shops, torches aloft. The whole thing should culminate with a terrific bonfire and a flash mob rendition of the Dies Irae.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
With Morris Dancers adding their bewitching steps?
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
Before making St George's Day a Bank Holiday they should set about marking St David's Day properly, for two good reasons:
1. He was British.
2. He actually existed.
Neither of these two qualifications are enjoyed by St George.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
There was a knight at Romford station - knitted chain mail and white surplice with red cross. Handing out election bumf for UKIP. (I get to work in lovely places).
OFSTED requires all schools to teach English values and Englishness, so watch for more celebrations. I added the Uccello painting and U A Fanthorpe poem Not My Best Side into the mix for my teaching materials.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
I'm beginning to regret having started this thread with all the cries of "We don't want these foreign saints being brought over here trying to take over our national holidays." You've got a free saint of exotic origin and he even comes with a dragon, what more do you want? I haven't a clue about how you'd celebrate St Cuthbert's Day (which is 20 March, three days after St Patrick's), and St Alban - well, I suppose that could be celebrated with Roman re-enactments. The whole point of St George is the dragon, and how he gets the better of it, basically.
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The problem with having a St George's Day bank holiday is that if you had a late-ish Easter, you'd get three consecutive holiday weekends. Personally, I'd be all in favour of that, but you'd get lots of indignant spluttering from the slaves of Mammon.
The early May Bank Holiday could be shifted to October to become Trafalgar Day and commemorate Nelson. Other suggestions for other Bank Holidays are welcome.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
What's not to like about a saint with a dragon?
We celebrate St Andrews Day, but St Andrew himself doesn't feature much, if at all.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
I'm not hearing 'God for Harry! England and St Cuthbert!'
And I passed a church dedicated to St Michael today: what claims to historicity does he have?
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I'm not hearing 'God for Harry! England and St Cuthbert!'
I was just coming here to post that.
I'm sure St Cuthbert is very worthy but he doesn't seem to have gripped the popular imagination over the centuries in the way George did. And you never meet anyone bearing his name, or see any pubs named after him.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
And I passed a church dedicated to St Michael today: what claims to historicity does he have?
Well at least he's mentioned in Scripture. Of course, half of those references are apocalyptic, so maybe there's a claim to post-historicity? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Before making St George's Day a Bank Holiday they should set about marking St David's Day properly, for two good reasons:
1. He was British.
2. He actually existed.
Neither of these two qualifications are enjoyed by St George.
It's my understanding that there's little doubt that St. George actually existed and was martyred. Anything much beyond those two basic facts is legend/up for debate.
Meanwhile, it was my understanding that prior to St. George, St. Edmund and/or St. Edward the Confessor were generally considered the patron saints of England.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
I'm sure St Cuthbert is very worthy but ... you never meet anyone bearing his name.
Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble, Grubb.
(showing my age)
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
:
A friend of mine wrote this bit of doggerel for me in honor of the day:
Saint George's Day comes once each year
And when it dawns all dragons fear
For Gorgeous George with sword so bright
Went slaying dragons left and right.
Some maidens, too, did lose their heads...
The rest is NSFW
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
I read a piece, probably in History Today, pointing out that George was adopted just before Edward I (I think) set out to subdue the Welsh. Deliberate propaganda about dragons, it was suggested.
I wouldn't be that keen on Edward the Confessor, since he dumped us on the Normans. And Augustine didn't bring Christianity - he made a point of dissing the existing bishops. There's Alban, of course, and Aidan, as well as Edmund, and Oswald. Not to mention the women, Hild, and the others. Or Julian. And Alphege. Or Aldhelm.
Doesn't have to be a militant male, does it?
Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I'm beginning to regret having started this thread with all the cries of "We don't want these foreign saints being brought over here trying to take over our national holidays." You've got a free saint of exotic origin and he even comes with a dragon, what more do you want?
I celebrated St George's Day with beef Wellington and a middle eastern salad, made with Palesinian maftoul couscous ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
Washed down with a bottle of Nuit St George?
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
The same teaching materials also list all the other countries for which St George is patron saint. There are some really interesting ones on the list: Georgia and Palestine are fairly obvious, but Romania not so much. I was working with some teenage boys who supported the EDL when I wrote them.
Apparently there is an Arab phrase about going to St George, which means someone is going mad. They believe St George protects the insane.
There's another good reason to keep St George as the English patron saint: he is venerated by both Islam and Christianity.
(And his origins are no more divorced from the UK than St Andrew.)
Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The early May Bank Holiday could be shifted to October to become Trafalgar Day and commemorate Nelson. Other suggestions for other Bank Holidays are welcome.
I've always thought we should have one to celebrate Trafalgar Day, at present we have nothing between the August bank holiday and Christmas. And the August holiday should be moved back to its original position at the beginning of the month, giving us space for another one in September.
And it would annoy the French, which is a good enough reason anyway.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
St George was adopted as the 'official' patron saint by Edward III at the time he inaugurated the Order of the Garter.
Before that, people returning from the third Crusade brought with them the cult of St George, which is why in England he is marked with the so-called cross of St George (red cross on white ground): this was actually the preferred symbol of the knights templar, who were big in the UK, and those knights who accompanied Richard I also carried this symbol.
The original patron saint of England was Edward the Martyr.
Edward the Confessor was not seen as being patron saint of the English since many Anglo-Saxons considered him to be more Norman than anything else - which is why William I and his successors tried to promote him as patron saint but these moves were unsuccessful and Edward the Martyr remained patron saint until 1348.
The numbering of kings called Edward is confusing: Edward the Martyr should rightly be numbered Edward I, Edward the Confessor Edward II and so on - another example of the Normans considering history began with them, giving the lie to the tale about Edward the Confessor and the promise of the kingdom to William the Bastard.
Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on
:
I wouldn't like to lose the early May bank holiday, it is one of the few bank holidays where celebrations still link back to their historic medieval and pagan roots, with May Poles and dancing (at Kentwell Hall they re-create a Tudor May Day with parades, mummers and dancing and the Green Man running from the wood and stealing a maid - it is quite magical). This sort of thing probably has a greater significance in East Anglia than some other places but I think May Day is of historic importance and I'd far rather have that than a random assigned day without a tradition.
Posted by Meike (# 3006) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I'm beginning to regret having started this thread with all the cries of "We don't want these foreign saints being brought over here trying to take over our national holidays." You've got a free saint of exotic origin and he even comes with a dragon, what more do you want?
I dont have any say in this, but I would also take the dragon slayer with the catchy name who rescued the princess.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
Princess? WTF?
NO!
There's been far to much disneyfication of British life and legend already - we don't need to add any more.
St Edward the Martyr and/or St Bede.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
On a perhaps more serious note ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
, it seems that St. George (whoever he might actually have been) is regarded as the patron saint of the Scout movement, on account of him fighting hard and valiantly against hardships (such as dragons, which can be right flaming nuisances.....).
That said, it made sense ISTM for our Scouts, Cubs, Beavers, and Squirrels to come into Church yesterday afternoon to take time out from their St. George's-tide Fun Day. They renewed their promises (to God and The Queen etc.), invested new members and new leaders, and concluded with a 30-second homily (from me), the Collect for St. George's Day and a blessing.
Seemly, edifying, Christian, and focussed on the Resurrection (for the belief in which the original George was martyred c.304).
Ian J.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
On a perhaps more serious note , it seems that St. George (whoever he might actually have been) is regarded as the patron saint of the Scout movement, on account of him fighting hard and valiantly against hardships (such as dragons, which can be right flaming nuisances.....).
Yes, that was decision made by Baden-Powell. Early editions of Scouting for Boys had an illustration of St. George dressed as a scout while fighting the dragon. B-P's "St. George's DayA Rhyme":
My warmest good wishes I am sending to you
And hoping that now that the winter is through
You will start out afresh to follow the lead
Of our Patron Saint George and his spirited steed;
Not only to tackle what ever may befall,
But also successfully to win through it all
And then may you have an enjoyable spell
Of hiking, and jolly good camping as well.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Princess? WTF?
NO!
There's been far to much disneyfication of British life and legend already - we don't need to add any more.
Given that the episode with the dragon and the Princess (Sabra) has been knocking around since the 13th century at least, you can't really blame Walt Disney.
There are a lot of Kings' daughters in song and story, like it or lump it.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
I wouldn't like to lose the early May bank holiday, it is one of the few bank holidays where celebrations still link back to their historic medieval and pagan roots, with May Poles and dancing (at Kentwell Hall they re-create a Tudor May Day with parades, mummers and dancing and the Green Man running from the wood and stealing a maid - it is quite magical). This sort of thing probably has a greater significance in East Anglia than some other places but I think May Day is of historic importance and I'd far rather have that than a random assigned day without a tradition.
Yes, I think that what others may do on their patron saints days, the English probably do at May Day (dance round maypoles, get pissed, throw themselves down hills after wheels of cheese etc). This theory came out in a conversation with an American friend who was noting the lack of 4th of July-style celebrations in England.
There's a big gap between August Bank Holiday and Christmas. Maybe we could have Bonfire Night?
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
:
I do not see why the cheerful domestic practice of the Catalans cannot be emulated? There, one buys a book and a flower for presentation to one's inamorata/us. This could provide a welcome boost for the publishing industry while perhaps a welcome respite from watching television.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
We already have Valentine's Day for presenting gifts to inamorati (those of us that have them, anyway). That would be Saint Valentine who also never came to England and about whom not much is known, including how that Roman martyr came to be associated with a festival of romance.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
I forgot Bede.
On a tour in Greece, we came across this cave shrine to St George, revered by both Christians and Muslims (when they were about there). That much we were told, but not the whole of what is done on the 23rd.
St George at Meteora.
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on
:
According to Have I Got News For You, George is also patron saint of syphilis and boy scouts. Sadly a quick look at Wikipedia failed to verify this, but who am I to doubt the word of the BBC?
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
I bet there was a lot of shuffling and looking the other way when the Archangel was handing out that brief.
'Syphilis, anyone? Vitus?'
'Hands full with the Czechs, sorry. And the overslept - big drain.'
'Roch?'
'Love to help, but this Ebola thing, you know how it is...'
''Preciate that. Epidemics can run you off your feet. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure dragons are a spent force these days. So, George...'
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
:
Just curious, RA & Firenze.
Does any other disease (STD or other) have a patron saint??
Seems weird to me.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
Does any other disease (STD or other) have a patron saint??
Oh dear yes, lots. It was something of an industry in the Middle Ages - no point in having saints if they didn't do something useful for you.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
Here in fact is a list:
Saints & their diseases
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
I'm just catching up on the BBC programme on the Plantagenets, in which the presenter has just told me that Henry III was devoted to Edward the Confessor, the only English king to be canonised.
Does this mean that all those others are irregular saints?
And Brenda, did you notice
quote:
Aspren invoked against migraine[6]
[ 27. April 2015, 18:51: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I'm just catching up on the BBC programme on the Plantagenets, in which the presenter has just told me that Henry III was devoted to Edward the Confessor, the only English king to be canonised.
[/QUOTE]
I love BBC history programmes and Bartlett is a favourite. He's written some excellent, if slightly weighty, books on Norman history too (his Norman series was lurking around on iPlayer last week). I've just browsed his page on Amazon and am very tempted by his book on saints and worshippers.
Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on
:
Ariel and Brenda Clough - neither list mentions George and syphilis. Has the BBC got it wrong, or is my memory going?
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Ariel and Brenda Clough - neither list mentions George and syphilis. Has the BBC got it wrong, or is my memory going?
There's probably a saint for memory loss. St Thingie.
But George is on on the heavenly team for syphilis.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
I don't think there is a specific saint who deals with memory as such, but you could try St Anthony for restoring lost things, or St Dymphna who deals with mental afflictions.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
I was particularly struck by St. Expeditus, invoked against procrastination.
Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on
:
...or not, as the case may be.
AG
© Ship of Fools 2016
UBB.classicTM
6.5.0