|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Amos
|
daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
|
Posted
We are and have been two evenings, (We are a House Group who study the Bibles regularly.) studying "Amos" which is a very different one from many in the Bible. What do you all think and know about it?
--------------------
London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
|
Posted
I just found this:
kingjamesbibleonline.org
Before, I could not get it on the computer.
--------------------
London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
I've always been a fan of Amos, the first of the “classical prophets” (ie. those who left a book). Himself a Southerner, he prophesied at Bethel, a cultic center in the Northern Kingdom, so he knew what it was like to be an outsider. He was active in the early to mid 8th Century, which was a time of great material prosperity for Israel, but also social and religious corruption. How often do religious standards fall away when people discover affluence and ease!
Amos is a book of judgment (even though someone has stuck a hopeful appendix on the end of it); we will have to wait until later prophets to get the hope of restoration after punishment. The hypocrisy of ‘correct’ worship while oppressing the poor is condemned – it is not right worship. This is a powerful message about how worship is not just what we do in Temple (/Church). It's the insight writ large in Matt 25 and that inspired the following words of John Chrysostom:
quote:
Do you want to honor Christ’s body? Then do not scorn him in his nakedness, nor honor him here in the church with silken garments while neglecting him outside where he is cold and naked.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
Also, take a look at this thread, where shipmates went through Amos chapter by chapter.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
I've always been a fan of Amos, the first of the “classical prophets” (ie. those who left a book).
How do you mean? Are you talking in the time it is believed to have been written? Because otherwise, Hosea and Joel both precede it.
--------------------
Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
I didn't realize that claim was controversial. The book dates itself (Amos 1:1).
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
|
Posted
Amos seems to be a very different person, compared to mean others who have wrote the bits of the Bibles. He really wants the lots of locals to behave properly.
--------------------
London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
|
Posted
Amos did not in those days know about Jesus, and he was always telling people to look after people who had not food or anything else. He also put in lots of animals and also how God put wind and water in all sorts of places, but not everywhere...
He does say that we must always get and feel close to God and behave well to God.
I wonder why not lots of people would have mentioned on Amos? Is it not something that many read and think about?
--------------------
London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
I wonder why not lots of people would have mentioned on Amos? Is it not something that many read and think about?
It might help, daisymay, if you gave us a sense of quite what you were interested in discussing concerning Amos? Is there are particular passage whose meaning you are puzzling over? An aspect of the book that surprised you? A question of application you are wrestling with?
You say you found Amos rather unique within the canon. What was it that struck you as so different, compared with the other prophets, say?
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
|
Posted
One of the things we "feel" about, is that he always tells people to behave well and also now there is loads of fighting in various places throughout the world, it does seem sensible if lots of countries could read and learn about "Amos".
We prayed for the world last time we met. Another one leads today, verse 5...
--------------------
London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
I tend to read it in terms of unlocking Mark, although I know that's problematic and narrow for some.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I tend to read it in terms of unlocking Mark, although I know that's problematic and narrow for some.
Can you say more? I'm intrigued. How do you see Mark as utilizing Amos? (I assume you don't mean Tori Amos singing "for Mark"...)
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Mark uses Amos a lot, references, hints at various bits etc. To give an example, one of the cries of Jesus from the cross is a reference to Amos.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
|
Posted
And Jesus had read all the Bible and had taught people about it, and Amos had not known about Jesus coming!
--------------------
London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
I thought I should expand this a little, but recently I've been a bit tied up. To give one example: In Mark's Gospel there is a cosmic darkness at the crucifixion that alludes to Amos 8v9. It's not a metaphorical darkness; that is to say, 'His eyes darkened as he died' sort of thing. Instead it fits with a theme of what some have called the 'secret adversary' in Mark, present from the beginning and then more obvious from the point of arrest (Jesus becomes more passive in the text, while the adversary becomes more active and pressing). It's linked to a lot of ideas, but essentially it is the loosing of the driving evil that drives Jesus to the destruction of the cross yet unwittingly opens the door for a new thing. The cross is being set in the framework of the judgement of all things: evil essentially burns itself out yet in this very act of submission to it, goodness flourishes.
I know I'm probably not putting it very well, and if I had more time I could write deems, but that would be a tiny bit dull to read, unless you were really, really, really interested in how Amos unlocks Mark.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
|
Posted
So did Mark read and then comment on the older Amos?
--------------------
London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Yep; sorry, that's what I meant. The writer of Mark's Gospel is soaked in Amos and uses it o tell the story of Jesus as being consistent with the prophets. Maybe the community that Mark was writing for had a particular affinity with Amos for some reason, so they would have known all the references being made without having to have them all spelt out. Hard to say really, but may have been a possibility.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
|
Posted
Seems a bit esoteric to me
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Why would it be esoteric to suggest that the writers of the Gospels are soaked in scripture and have their fav bits (or possibly bits that they feel have more relevance to their community)?
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
|
Posted
Given that Amos' emphasis was on a Just God who demanded justice from His people then what Amos said was nothing different from what other 8th Cent prophets said.
And we have not had any detailed analysis of "quotes" from Amos by Mark. Just a sweeping assertion that Mark was doing this.
Perhaps we can expect a list of detailed quotations.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
....ok; you did read the last bit I presume, where Mark is essentially quoting Amos? But, I guess if you feel the need for more then here are a few more examples.
As you rightly point out, Amos has a lot to say about God's judgement, and in keeping with other Biblical prophets it is couched in terms of having fairly bad consequences for Israel. Mark touches on this from time to time. Generally in this area he likes to quote grammatically and structurally from Isaiah, but he is also alluding to Amos even if he isn't quoting Amos directly (Mk 13 v 19-20).
The passage regarding wealth in Mk 10 is making a direct reference to Amos 2 v6-8. The famous incident of the naked man in Mk 14 is a reference in part to an eschatalogical passage in Amos 2v16, but is essentially a direct quote in narrative form. Mark uses quite a specific term in his Gethsemane scene with Jesus falling to the ground (or falling on his face), a reference to Divine judgement contained in many of the prophets, but specifically here in Amos 3v14. When Mark talks about the disciples running away he is making a direct quotational reference to Amos 5v19 and 9v1, to make an eschatological point. In Mk 13 Jesus talks about the day of the Lord when the sun will be darkened etc (like the passage I discussed in the previous post); it's a reference to Amos 5v20 - a crucial quotation of Amos in Mark's Gospel that references the crucifixion to come as something foretold by the prophets - in this instance, Amos. It is possible (although not entirely conclusive in this case) that the pun on the word 'end in the fig tree parable is a quote from Amos 8v1-2 who effectively employs the same pun for the same meaning (doom). Mark uses the same reference in Amos in relation to a similar event where Jesus curses a fig tree.
Having written all this I'm beginning to think that perhaps you meant something else and I've just wasted my time! If you thought that I was suggesting that only Amos is quoted in Mark, then, no I didn't mean that. I think Amos is vital to understand Mark and can certainly unlock some of the more difficult or obscure passages, but overall mark quotes from all over the place, but it is especially in Amos that we find his overarching theme - particularly entering Mark's passion narrative.
Neither are these ideas my ideas. You can find plenty of other commentaries that say the same thing, most notably in Larry Hurtado, Joel Marcus, as far back as William Barclay, and it's even present in Jeremy Taylor's advent sermons.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
|
Posted
I have looked up every one of the above references to Marks gospel and Amos.
I fail to see a single one which can be described as a direct quote.
The themes mentioned - wealth, darkness et al were all part of the consistent message of all the 8th Cent prophets: you could argue that Mark was quoting Jeremiah and Isaiah or any other of the prophets with equal plausibility.
And the 'end times' allusions were not only common to the prophets but, even more likely,, references to the plethora of apocalyptic writings of the inter-testamental period.
In short I think the thesis that Mark was referring back to Amos specifically contains much special pleading.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
I'm really not seeing your specific issue with it - even Jesus quotes the prophets, and that is essentially what Mark is doing too but he's not lifting a quotation and slapping it in place in the text. In the same way, I could argue that Shakespeare's allusions to scripture in his plays are a 'special pleading' because he doesn't quote chunks of passages directly and tell the audience exactly where they come from.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
|
Posted
I think we are talking at cross purposes.
No question that Jesus quoted the prophets. He stood in the 'prophetic' tradition as opposed to the priestly tradition.
I am simply questioning the 'influence' of Amos upon Mark's record. As far as I can see from the above you were asserting that Mark in particular had a reliance upon Amos in telling the story of Jesus.
And I question the "quotations / references" which you see as a Markan / Amos correspondence.
I could see the same references as a Markan/Isiainic or a Markan/Jeremiah or as a Markan/Micah correspondence.
So the disagreement is specific rather than general
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Ah, I see - yes I misunderstood your point of disagreement. That's fair enough.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321
|
Posted
Amos is down to earth, not a member of any prophetic school, and amazing. Perhaps my favourite prophet.
[ 05. December 2013, 22:00: Message edited by: The Weeder ]
--------------------
Still missing the gator
Posts: 2542 | From: LaLa Land | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
|
Posted
Next Tuesday we will meet again and study Amos. I don't have to lead it, which is fine for me.
--------------------
London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
|
Posted
We finished on Tuesday evening, and it was all about Jonah, Joel and Amos. It was all about how to behave properly, so we are not annoyed by God.
It says that there are many "sins" in many nations, including Israel then. So Amos taught Israel to behave well, to do the right things. So that God did not have judgement on them.
Amos told us to "hate evil" and "love good".
We were told to pray for our nations!
And pray for our hope in our life and also those people who feel hopeless!
|
--------------------
London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
