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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Lead us not into temptation
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
I've always had a problem with this petition. I had a bit of an argument with an evangelical woman who insisted that God sends us trials to test us, which I could not accept (I changed the subject because I could see it was going to go nowhere).
The contemporary version which we've used for decades uses 'save us from (or in) the time of trial', which I feel might equally be replaced with 'be with us in the time of trial'.
Shipmates knowledgeable in the original languages, or whose theological convictions differ from mine, may rush to defend the traditional version.
But what provoked this contribution was a headline in today's paper, headlined "'Blasphemous' error in Lord's Prayer rewritten', the gist of which can be found here, which seems to say that I'm in agreement with the Vatican.
The news item is about the French translation of the bible. Is there a new ruling on English translations? Or have Catholic translations avoided this 'blasphemy'?
What responses do shipmates have to this issue?
GG
Edited to rty and sort out URL – seems to have got messed up. Good luck!
[fixed code - you didn't have any text for the link title (I've put 'here') and you had a stray [ before the http]
[ 17. October 2013, 11:51: Message edited by: seasick ]
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
IIRC, "do not subject us to the time of hard trial", or something like that, is the better translation. We are told elsewhere in Scripture that God does not tempt anyone; after all, he hardly needs to - we can handle that quite well without His aid!
I do think, however, that God permits us to have our character tested, as part of the refining process which we all need if we are to be conformed to the person God wants us to be. That's not the same as temptation, though resisting it will always be a part of the process.
[ 17. October 2013, 09:59: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
As the OP seems to be more focussed on how that petition of the Lord's Prayer is best translated rather than which version to use in worship, I think that this thread belongs better in Kerygmania. Hold on to your gospel books...
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
Many of the petitions in the Lord's prayer are paired in a parallelism reminiscent of that found in the Psalms, and the meaning of each part of the pair is dependent on the other element in some way.
So: Our Father in heaven
hallowed be your name [it is significant that 'heaven' and 'hallowed' are next to each other - synthetic parallelism with the two ideas complementing each other]
Your kingdom come,
Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven [synonymous parallelism with the two phrases expressing essentially the same thing]
Give us today our daily bread [the only unparalleled statement - which may be significant as it gives it a special kind of focus in the centre of the prayer]
Forgive us our sins
as we forgive those who sin against us [synthetic parallelism again - it's a bit of a grab bag category, but there is clearly a relationship between the ideas, neither synonymous nor antithetical]
Do not bring us to the time of trial
(aka Lead us not into temptation)
but deliver us from evil [antithetic parallelism in which the related items stand in opposite or contrasting relationship to one another. I would say the essential part of this petition is the one to be delivered from evil, which is thrown into high relief by the antithetical statement which precedes it. I find it hard to give the expression the force I think it has in writing, but it is something like 'Do not bring us to the time of trial but rather deliver us from evil.']
The parallelism isn't present IMO in the doxology that concludes the prayer.
So in essence there are five petitions four of which are paired with a statement intended to add to their force, and the fifth emphasised by being unpaired- May your name be honoured/hallowed
- May your kingdom come on earth
- Give us our daily bread
- Forgive us our sins
- Deliver us from evil
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
In the Anglican Church of Canada's Book of Alternative Services allows for both "Lead us not into temptation" and it's alternative
"Save us from the time of trial" to be used.
I agree it seems odd to say that the Lord may"lead us into trmptation" but then that's 16th century English . The newer form is
something that can be the new normal.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
I've always had a problem with this petition. I had a bit of an argument with an evangelical woman who insisted that God sends us trials to test us, which I could not accept (I changed the subject because I could see it was going to go nowhere).
I also cannot accept that God sends us trials, but I have no problem with the petition. I take it as a way to acknowledge that in our fallen state, God's healing will inevitably involve trials of various sorts as we cling to our inclinations toward selfishness and worldliness.
As Jolly Jape alludes to, being subject to the refining fire of God's love isn't going to be all fun and games. It reminds me of my childhood when I had a splinter and knew that allowing one of my parents to remove it was temporarily going to intensify the pain. I knew they didn't want to cause that pain, but I had to be ready to accept it as an inevitable consequence of my situation. In effect I was pleading "Please don't cause me pain, but more importantly, please take out the splinter." And of course they would wait until I let them know that I was ready.
So for me, the petition is a way to say to God "OK, I know it's inevitable so I'm ready now."
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
In the Anglican Church of Canada's Book of Alternative Services allows for both "Lead us not into temptation" and it's alternative
"Save us from the time of trial" to be used.
I agree it seems odd to say that the Lord may"lead us into trmptation" but then that's 16th century English . The newer form is
something that can be the new normal.
I have read in a few places that the Greek can either be translated "lead us not into temptation," or "do not permit us to be lead into temptation." No idea how accurate that claim is.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Now that's second one is a translation I could get behind. Koine readers, what do you think? A plausible translation?
[ 18. October 2013, 14:24: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Peregrinus Balticus
Apprentice
# 14728
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Posted
I think the problem is partly with how best to translate the word in the Greek original: 'perasmos': temptation? test? trial?
I entirely agree that the idea of God leading us, like a bad shepherd?, into situations where we are being tempted with things / actions / whatever that we shouldn't have / do, is objectionable.
The term 'temptation' does indeed have a core meaning of 'testing', but of course its prime meaning in present-day English (and this I think is true of every other language I'm familiar with) has become 'forbidden fruit'.
I therefore rather like the US/Canadian 'time of trial' version, except I don't know where the 'time' comes from.
Privately, I often use this version: 'Do not put us to the test'.
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
...God sends us trials to test us...
There is some backing for this, where 'test' is understood in the sense of a process to assure one of another's loyalty. It occurs in, for example, Deuteronomy 8 (NIV):
quote:
Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the wilderness these forty years, to humble and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands (8:2)
He gave you manna to eat in the wilderness, something your ancestors had never known, to humble and test you so that in the end it might go well with you (8:16)
There is also a related sense of disciplining, as a refining process to ensure someone develops or matures properly:
quote:
Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the Lord your God disciplines you (8:5)
In Matt. 6:9-13, which in the NET Bible runs...:
quote:
So pray this way:
Our Father in heaven, may your name be honored,
may your kingdom come,
may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts, as we ourselves have forgiven our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
...the Greek text in verse 13 includes the verb eisphero in its aorist active subjunctive (expressing a wish) state (eisenegkes = εἰσενέγκῃς), which has the meaning of causing or permitting to be led into.
On its own it doesn't really help with a decision as to whether it implies God would actively cause a believer to be tempted / tested, or whether he is passive. Additionally, to my mind, there isn't a lot of difference between 'temptation' and 'testing' in NT use (or OT for that matter); it's a modern (English in this case) issue that hopes to see a difference so that we can avoid a difficult theological problem. The biblical writers did not see it as a problem – it was always about changing one's loyalty or being faced with that option – usually for the early audiences of these Gospels being faced with it under heavy pressure (e.g., persecution, torture...)
The answer in the prayer, I think, is the one BroJames pointed out earlier. The second half of the verse assists us in understanding the first. “Deliver us from evil” is imperative in force, not subjunctive. The whole verse is rooted in the pleas to God heard in the OT: “We are in loyal relationship with you, God, we have been faithful; so now in our time of difficulty fulfill your covenant obligation and come and save us!” The idea is that a God who is faithful to a covenant – and therefore loyal to his followers – must assist them when they are under threat. Otherwise the covenant would be annulled. In Matthew we have another echo of that principle. The person praying has a right (if they are loyal) to demand that God does not forget his people, or ignore their plight when his attention is drawn to it; he is not to “let his people be dragged helplessly into persecution” (one way of translating 6:13a), but rather to do the decent thing and “actively step in to rescue his people from enemies” (again, reflecting OT equivalent language for 6:13b).
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Many of the petitions in the Lord's prayer are paired in a parallelism reminiscent of that found in the Psalms, and the meaning of each part of the pair is dependent on the other element in some way.
So in essence there are five petitions four of which are paired with a statement intended to add to their force, and the fifth emphasised by being unpaired- May your name be honoured/hallowed
- May your kingdom come on earth
- Give us our daily bread
- Forgive us our sins
- Deliver us from evil
Is it just me or is there also a chiastic structure (mirrored) around the central petition. The first two petitions are positively for things to happen:
God's name honoured
His kingdom come
But the last two are about reversing or preventing negative things
Forgiving sin
Delivering us from evil
But all of this makes most sense to me in terms of why are we praying these things? Because we don't see them in operation:
God's name is not universally hallowed, his kingdom is not seen in effect in all things yet, sins abound and forgiveness is often in short supply, we are tempted (not by God), tested and have trials and we can suffer from evil acts.
This helps me understand this as less of a passive "keep us away from bad things" and a more active "lead us away from bad things (and towards the good things we prayed for in the first two petitions)"
I'm no Greek scholar so I don't understand all the correct tenses but it makes sense to me that we want God to be actively leading us away from things rather than passively avoiding things.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
For me this petition is an example of our dependence on God. ( As with the daily bread petition).
It is a recognition that some situations in life will test us beyond our power to resist. Recognising this fact of life leads us on to pray "But deliver us from evil".
The words challenge our DIY attitude and our sense of self-sufficiency.
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Meant to add that I don't get the elaborations which depend on Greek tenses used. Jesus didnt speak Greek and I am not sure there is an equivalence when it comes to meaning dependent on tenses used.
Of course the tenses used may be of importance in understanding what the gospel writer thought.
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Meant to add that I don't get the elaborations which depend on Greek tenses used. Jesus didnt speak Greek and I am not sure there is an equivalence when it comes to meaning dependent on tenses used.
Of course the tenses used may be of importance in understanding what the gospel writer thought.
Good point I wonder how it reads in Aramaic?
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Why so sure Jesus didn't speak Greek?
Most people there and then probably had a limited amount of marketplace Greek, if only for talking to foreigners and Romans.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
What would be the point in speaking Greek to Jews who might have had (quote: a limited kinowledge of market-place Greek)?
Why not speak to them in their native language?
Evidence please.
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
Sorry for the double post but thought I'd try to answer my own question.
Apparently the Greek word translated "lead us" is eisphero (as mentioned earlier in the thread) but this translates the Aramaic word nisyon which has two possible readings, either:
Do not cause us to go into temptation/trials, or
Do not permit us to go into temptations/trials.
The latter would mean we are asking God to throw road-blocks in the way if we are taking a dangerous path. I quite like that.
Also apparently the Arabic for a scientific experiment (trial) is tajriba which also means temptation another example of where a single word carries both meanings.
Source: Kenneth E. Bailey, "Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes"
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
Apparently the Greek word translated "lead us" is eisphero (as mentioned earlier in the thread) but this translates the Aramaic word nisyon which has two possible readings...
Both words do indeed still seem to leave us with no assistance on their own as to whether the meaning intended in the Lord's Prayer was that God actively brings tests, or re-actively intervenes to save from testing. We have to look at the surrounding text to see how the verb is placed for clues on this.
On shamwari's point re: the Greek verb tenses, I agree that Jesus most probably addressed his followers and disciples in the day-to-day language of Aramaic, though I'm sure – in common with many peoples trading in the cross-roads of multiple cultures – he would have been well versed in Greek as well, and also in biblical Hebrew (for the Synagogue study and readings, at least). He might even have had a smattering of Latin to hand.
Be that as it may, and assuming that the Gospel record in Matthew is a Greek translation of an Aramaic original quote from Jesus, I think there are actually some good reasons why we can have confidence in the validity of Greek tense usage; three reasons come to mind:
[1] The memory of Jesus' followers. The strength of a community that was familiar with oral traditions means that they these followers were likely to be good at remembering tenses used – particularly in the pithy, poetic, passages like the Lord's Prayer. I think they would be able to remember what Jesus had intended in his use of the verbs in Aramaic and would be more likely to know what the equivalent Greek verb state would be in the translation process.
[2] NT Greek is quite Hebraic / Aramaic in its structure. It reflects better an Aramaic or Hebrew original style, including word order, than it does classical Greek. This again indicates that the authors probably had the original language in mind.
[3] The verb style of Lord's Prayer is on a par with similar quotes in Hebrew bible. The imperative “Give us...” “Save us...” etc. is a good reflection of the verbal style and content of petition in the OT.
It gives me confidence, at least, that Jesus' intention in the Lord's Prayer is for his followers to pray that God would intervene to rescue them from trial / test / temptation, rather than the alternative understanding of God imposing trials on them.
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
Nigel M I like your points.
It would make sense that Jesus' disciples would not have an issue understanding which was the intended use or meaning as they would be familiar with both Aramaic and Greek which both appear to reflect a broader meaning.
Our issue is the translation into English and thus losing the nuance.
I agree that the meaning that most makes sense is the "save us from"
Thanks.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
Since "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" is one of the most powerful Biblical recitations for me personally, I have continued to ponder this thread and I wonder, does anyone else see a connection with the reference to "overcoming" in John 16:33?
quote:
These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.
and in Revelation 3:21?
quote:
He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
I hadn't before to be fair. But I see your point.
To my mind it then links it back to God's purposes "overcoming" our human machinations. So this links back for me to "your kingdom come, your will be done" as well.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
Do not cause us to go into temptation/trials, or
Do not permit us to go into temptations/trials.
The latter would mean we are asking God to throw road-blocks in the way if we are taking a dangerous path. I quite like that.
I quite like that too JD . Not sure if this has been referred to up thread, but your bit about "road-blocks" got me thinking on St. Pauls words re temptation --
Cor 1 CH10 v13 ..... God who is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye able ; but with the temptation also make a way to escape ....
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
Agree. Nice link.
The more I've thought about this the more I think this petition is linked to the "your will be done" petition. Because to be tempted is essentially to be tempted to do something that would not be in line with God's will.
So I like the idea of praying "your will be done" and admitting that "Lord, even though I want to do your will I know what I'm like and I will be tempted to not follow through, if I'm in danger of doing this don't permit me to go that way, block my path, show me the escape route, Amen."
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
In Portuguese there are many versions of the Lord's Prayer, but most of them have "Don't let us fall into temptation" (Não nos deixeis cair em tentação.)
It always gives me the image of us dropping over the cliff, Wile E. Coyote style, and God extending a landing net to catch us just before we splash onto the ground ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 25. November 2013, 00:05: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
Nice image. Beep! Beep!
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
In Portuguese there are many versions of the Lord's Prayer, but most of them have "Don't let us fall into temptation" (Não nos deixeis cair em tentação.)
It always gives me the image of us dropping over the cliff, Wile E. Coyote style, and God extending a landing net to catch us just before we splash onto the ground
And in Portugal many many year ago, my husband had Jewish people who were forced to be killed by Portuguese people, but became Christians and survived then. They always read the Bible and learned more and more about Jesus.
Is killing Jewish ones in the past a temptation?
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London
Flickr fotos
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
daisymay: Is killing Jewish ones in the past a temptation?
I'm afraid that for some people it was.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
With regards to that particular Greek sentence: none of the leading dictionaries (BDAG, Liddell-Scott) suggest anything like "allow to be brought in." The only (and very straightforward) translation really seems to be "Do not lead us into peirasmon." Any "do not allow us to go into..." really sounds like eisegesis based on a particular idea of how God should act.
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
i agree with you Bostonman. The quote:
Do not cause us to go into temptation/trials, or
Do not permit us to go into temptations/trials.
reading is based on three untestable assumptions, first that Jesus did in fact give this teaching in Aramaic, secondly that the verb he used was nisyon, and thirdly that the NT translators into Greek understood what Jesus' use of first century Aramaic meant, less well than we do today.
I go back to understanding the sentence as a rhetorical device, a kind of litotes, used to emphasise the primary petition "Deliver us from evil".
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
...none of the leading dictionaries...suggest anything like "allow to be brought in."
It can do in the subjunctive mood, though, which alters the direction somewhat.
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
...untestable assumptions...
Could it not be possible to use the following for leading us into a test on this?:
[1] The fact that although the surface structure of the written text is in Greek, the syntax (and semantics) are Semitic.
[2] The evidence of written materials from that era indicate that the mother tongue (common language) was Aramaic, the liturgical language was Hebrew, the language of commerce was Greek, and the language of administration was increasingly Latin.
Number [1] above takes us only as far as indicating that the writers of the Gospels (well, the entire NT, really) were native Semitic speakers.
Combine that with [2] and it indicates that communication – particularly verbal – between peers of an informal kind would most likely have been in Aramaic and that Gospel writers were communicating in Greek a version of a communication originally uttered in Aramaic.
That sets a common ground, though of course it doesn’t directly answer the question whether Jesus taught the Lord's Prayer to his disciples in Aramaic. Couldn't it be seen as a reasonable inference based on the ground, though? If the evidence points in the direction of Aramaic as the common verbal channel at the time for the type of communication Jesus was engaged in, it would seem to be a reasonable proposition that Jesus spoke something as memorable as the Prayer in Aramaic.
That overlaps somewhat with other suggestions: the parallelisms you pointed out are memorable. Parallelisms aid retention. Then there is the style, which is also very Semitic, e.g., the use of the imperatives, e.g., “Save...!”
The whole thing feels Semitic.
In favour of a more active rendering of the first line in the parallel set dealing with this test/temptation issue (i.e. less of a “Do not permit us...” and more of “Don't lead us...”) is the possibility that the plea at this point is reflecting the exile experience. So, for example, that first line might be reflecting: “Don't lead us off into exile again (where we might be tempted to give up our faith), but save us from evil” (where 'evil' would be a reference to the calamity resulting from God's judgement). That would meet Bostonman's concerns above, but I am hesitant about this – the subjective mood of the verb somewhat qualifies its active nature.
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
I agree with Nigel M's reasoning. Given most of Jesus' teaching was to the "common people" the balance of probability in my mind is that Jesus' taught in Aramaic.
However, I also understand the point about the translation of the Greek. I am no scholar (as anyone who reads my posts will quickly discover - I'd never heard of eisegesis, but I think I get the point that it's reading into things I want to see there) but where I had got to was that this is an issue with the English translation (in comparison say to the Portuguese translation quoted above by LeRoc). So my reasoning is as follows:
1. Lead us not into temptation might be a good literal translation of the Greek words as it has an active verb: lead.
2. But this is not modern usage at all. No-one talks like that these days the nearest modern English translation would be Don't lead us into temptation. But this is passive. This is asking God NOT to do something. When we are praying we are asking God to act, to intervene, to do (as per all the other petitions). No-one would say to a business leader: lead us not into bankruptcy! They would say Save us from bankruptcy! Stop us falling over the fiscal cliff! Act! intervene! Save!
3. This is what I understand by the discussion around the Aramaic/Semitic underpinnings of the Greek text is that the original hearers and readers would've understood the intended sense of active intervention.
4. So for me it comes back to the fact that "Lead us not" might be a good literal word for word translation but I don't see it getting across the original (Semitic) intention for modern English hearers/readers. So the meaning (for me) is more: Save us from falling into temptation/testing as part of the parallelism with "Deliver us from evil".
I hope that clarifies my thought processes across several disjointed posts.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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