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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Thou shalt not covet - whatever THAT means
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
In Exodus 20 the children of Israel are told: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."
So what does that mean, to covet? Someone said it meant to "want" but that makes no sense, because I might want my neighbor's ox, and we might agree that I would pay him 40 shekels for it, and then I'd have the ox and he'd have the shekels. If I never wanted the ox, we'd never have made the arrangement, so it's absurd to say that kind of wanting is a sin.
So what kind of wanting is this "coveting" that is proscribed by the Law of Moses?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I'm going to grumblingly comment that our entire economy is based on coveting, and sink into silence.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I wish i could remember who explained it as "don't let your eyes sprout hands," meaning that wanting becomes a sin at the point where you start actively looking for a way to get X away from your neighbor, regardless of whether you can only accomplish it in a shady or inordinate way. Thus offering to buy the guy's house is fine, but refusing to accept his "no" and finagling round the city council to get them to use eminent domain to force the sale anyway is Just.Nasty.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
Further to LC's post and probably entirely compatible with Kelly's...
The Hebrew verb in Ex. 20:14 is hamad (= חמד), which crops up 20-odd times in the Hebrew Bible and is translated by the verb epithumeo (=ἐπιθυμέω) in the LXX here. There isn't a consistent use of epithumeo across the LXX as a translation of hamad; sometimes the LXX translators use it in place of another Hebrew word approximating 'desire', 'avah.
Apart from the two instances in 20:14, hamad occurs only one other time in Exodus, at 34:24 -
quote:
For I will drive out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; no one will covet [hamad] your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.
It's use here implies that coveting involves more than mere desire; it captures the aspect of 'capturing' as well. Someone actually grabs the property belonging to someone else. That could then be taken to mean that the prohibition in 20:14 is geared more towards the act of taking (grabbing) the 'house' of the neighbour ('house' being a technical term encompassing anything belonging to the neighbour, whether animate or inanimate).
Interestingly the same Hebrew word is used in Gen. 2:9...
quote:
The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow from the soil, every tree that was pleasing to look at...
...which might then be translated, “every kind of tree that produced the desire to grab its fruit.”
We get the same verb in Gen. 3:6...
quote:
When the woman saw that the tree produced fruit that was good for food, was attractive to the eye, and was desirable for making one wise...
Personally I can't empathise with this, but I do need to break off here 'cause I've a terrible desire for a cup of tea.
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I believe the distinction of coveting is that it refers to something specific. There are a number of terms which are sometimes confused:
If I am greedy, then I want all I can get. I may well assume everyone else is greedy.
If I am envious, I look at my neighbor and say "I deserve to have at least as much as my neighbor" (not necessarily the same items of wealth). I resent his success.
If I am selfish, then I am saying "This is my horse/wife/car/house/etc and not only am I unwilling to share, but you can't even look at it, borrow it or touch it." Selfishness asserts ownership. Life will be hard for the wife.
If I covet, then there is something specific of my neighbor's that I want to have, his wife or horse or whatever. He may not even be aware of it unless I act on it. He may be in danger.
In some ways, envy is the worst of the lot, a cancer that destroys a person's character.
In social terms, covetousness may be worse, as it can lead to assorted crimes: theft, murder, etc.
Selfishness is often its own punishment, making a person isolated and friendless.
Greed sounds bad and is bad, but it is often frustrated by lack of ability or opportunity. In a sufficiently rich world, we could all be greedy without harming each other much.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Pooks
Shipmate
# 11425
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Posted
Not very Biblical here, but according to the dictionary, one of the definitions of 'covet' is '3. to have an inordinate or wrongful desire.' as in coveting a prize someone else has won. Of course this is an English definition of an English word. Whether the definition matches the Hebrew definition of the Hebrew word is another matter.
I think covet doesn't have to be just about greed in terms of material wealth. It could be beauty or status or something else. I know this is not really answering Mousie's question re law of Moses, but I hope it might still add to the discussion even just a little.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: May 2006
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
The value of coveting being the last of the commandments is that it summarizes all of them at a level above the literal actions involved. It is saying that we should not only refrain from doing those sins, we should refrain from even wanting to do those sins.
On the face of it the commandment is just about theft, and the inordinate desire for other people's goods and property that leads to theft.
So it's not just murder that is a problem, but also hatred. It isn't just adultery that is a problem, but also the desire to do it.
Jesus pointed out the same thing in the Sermon on the Mount.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pooks
Shipmate
# 11425
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It is saying that we should not only refrain from doing those sins, we should refrain from even wanting to do those sins.
Freddy, thank you for summing it up so well. I did wonder about whether ' do not covet' was the basis of teaching by Jesus in Matthew 5. Especially verse 5:20 'For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.' and what follows. There is a sense of 'greater righteousness' being called for by Jesus that seems new, but perhaps it isn't really new after all.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: May 2006
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
To covet = to want (a) to an unsensible degree; (b) something that belongs to another; and (c) to hold a belief that one is entitled to the object.
Briefly, the "me,me,me" generation could be said to encapsulate the triumph of covetousness.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
To covet = to want (a) to an unsensible degree; (b) something that belongs to another; and (c) to hold a belief that one is entitled to the object.
Briefly, the "me,me,me" generation could be said to encapsulate the triumph of covetousness.
This begins to make sense, although "to an unsensible degree" is rather vague. The other 2 parts don't seem to need it.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
The way I sometimes look at it - not very scholarly, is this. Coveting, like envy, is a form of hatred.
If you envy someone, it's not because you want something they've got, it's just the fact that they've got it and you haven't.
Coveting is very similar - you want something not because of it's intrinsic value, but because somebody else has it, and you haven't. It's not the acquisition that is important, but depriving the other of it.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
When I covet something that belongs to someone else, my feeling is not envy. If someone gave me something exactly like the object I coveted, I would be delighted. The fact that someone else still has something like it wouldn't bother me at all.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I can covet a book I see at Barnes & Noble. Not because I think they shouldn't have it -- they're a bookseller forgodsake -- but because I want it and for some reason shouldn't have it (usually because it's not in the budget).
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
Perhaps the textbook case is that of Ahab and Naboth's vineyard-
quote:
Naboth the Jezreelite had a vineyard in Jezreel, beside the palace of King Ahab of Samaria. 2 And Ahab said to Naboth, ‘Give me your vineyard, so that I may have it for a vegetable garden, because it is near my house; I will give you a better vineyard for it; or, if it seems good to you, I will give you its value in money.’ 3 But Naboth said to Ahab, ‘The Lord forbid that I should give you my ancestral inheritance.’ 4 Ahab went home resentful and sullen because of what Naboth the Jezreelite had said to him; for he had said, ‘I will not give you my ancestral inheritance.’ He lay down on his bed, turned away his face, and would not eat.
3 Kings 21
There seems to be a dimension of taking what belongs to another against the will of the other involved in covet David and Bathsheba would be another example
quote:
7 Nathan said to David, ‘You are the man! Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: I anointed you king over Israel, and I rescued you from the hand of Saul; 8 I gave you your master’s house, and your master’s wives into your bosom, and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added as much more. 9 Why have you despised the word of the Lord, to do what is evil in his sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the Ammonites
2 Kings 12
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Posts: 241 | From: Exeter | Registered: Jul 2012
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
When I covet something that belongs to someone else, my feeling is not envy. If someone gave me something exactly like the object I coveted, I would be delighted. The fact that someone else still has something like it wouldn't bother me at all.
Moo
The I suggest you are not coveting anything, just using bad English!
P.S. So is Mousethief. IMNSHO, of course!
[ 01. April 2014, 13:41: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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jrw
Shipmate
# 18045
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Posted
If we all had a million pounds each, we'd be satisfied. Or would we?
Posts: 522 | Registered: Mar 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jrw:
If we all had a million pounds each, we'd be satisfied. Or would we?
Judging by the actions of our Wall Street CEOs, I'd say not.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Maybe coveting has all these dimensions--it's wanting but with a side of wrong added.
Having been raised on the Westminster standards, I tend to see the meaning of this commendment a little differently. It's not the wanting of a thing, exactly, that is the problem. Rather, it's allowing the wanting of the thing to take hold of me in an unhealthy way.
Questions 80 and 81 in the Shorter Catechism are as follows:
quote:
Q. 80. What is required in the tenth commandment?
A. The tenth commandment requireth full contentment with our own condition, with a right and charitable frame of spirit toward our neighbor, and all that is his.
Q. 81. What is forbidden in the tenth commandment?
A. The tenth commandment forbiddeth all discontentment with our own estate, envying or grieving at the good of our neighbour, and all inordinate motions and affections to anything that is his.
What I always took from this is not that I am forbidden from wanting things like those that my neighbor may have per se. If I want those things and have the (legal and moral) means to attain them, that's fine. Rather, the point is that I must be thankful for what I have and, on my neighbor's behalf, be thankful rather than envious for what she has.
The point was driven home to my wife and me recently, when we returned to our own nice but modest house after visiting with friends at their much larger and nicer house—one of two large, nice houses they own. I found myself slipping into the "well, if I had made a different career choice or two, we could have what they have" mantra. My wife had similar feelings.
We had to remind ourselves that we made the choices we did for a reason, that those choices were the right ones for us, that we have been blessed through those choices, that we do not lack for what we need, and that we have much to be thankful for.
I think that's what the commandment is about—not allowing discontent or envy for what others have distract us from being aware of and thankful how God has provided for us.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I'm going to grumblingly comment that our entire economy is based on coveting, and sink into silence.
I'm retrieving Kelly's comment from the beginning of the thread before she sank into silence, because I've been thinking a bit about this in the context of the Buddhist teaching that desire is the cause of all suffering. Is this a connection, or a contradiction, between Buddhism and the Judeo-Christian tradition, I wonder?
I've always taken the Buddhist teaching (insofar as I understand it from my reading, which is probably not so well) to mean that ALL desire, even for good things that you can legitimately obtain, is inherently wrong, and that the ideal state is to be detached from outcomes and want nothing. Whereas it's always seemed to me that the Biblical teaching is that there are good things that you can and should desire, and bad things that you should NOT desire -- or that you should not desire to obtain good things in an illicit way. And that seems to be the general thinking on this thread.
But sometimes I wonder if the commandment is getting at something closer to the Buddhist mentality, something that would seem very alien in our culture in which our economy is, as Kelly points out, entirely driven by coveting. Could there be a sense in which simply wanting stuff -- even good stuff, even stuff that we buy legitimately with our own hard-earned money -- is spiritually damaging? Should we reach toward the goal of wanting nothing, or at least wanting as little as possible?
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
When I covet something that belongs to someone else, my feeling is not envy. If someone gave me something exactly like the object I coveted, I would be delighted. The fact that someone else still has something like it wouldn't bother me at all.
Moo
Is that what envy is, wanting something and also wanting the other person *not* to have it? I don't think of enviousness that way at all. I know someone on a piano discussion board where I'm envious of her fantastic piano teacher, but that just means I want a teacher like that, not that I wish she didn't have her teacher.
Or is there some difference between envy and jealousy? I'm trying to think if I would use those two words differently, but, except for the sense of someone "jealous of his/her (own) rights" (and related meanings of jealousy: as in "our God is a jealous God")), nothing's coming to mind (although in fact I suspect I do use those words slightly differently at times: I just can't bring any of that to mind right now).
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I don't know if this helps or is even apropos to the conversation, but we would call a "jealous" boyfriend one who doesn't even want his girlfriend to even talk to other men. Does that sort of "jealousy" have any bearing on the discussion of envy, jealousy, and covetousness?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
I've always taken the Buddhist teaching (insofar as I understand it from my reading, which is probably not so well) to mean that ALL desire, even for good things that you can legitimately obtain, is inherently wrong, and that the ideal state is to be detached from outcomes and want nothing.
I know very little about Buddhism, but I've heard this concept being paraphrased (probably on the SoF) as craving being the cause of all suffering, which makes more sense to me. I'd be interested to know which comes closer to the original Buddhist concept.
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Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I'd be interested too, W Hyatt -- I have also heard several different perspectives on the "desire causes suffering" theme. Of course there are many different ways of being Buddhist just as there are many different ways of being Christian so I'm sure practicing Buddhists could hold varying views on the subject.
What are the odds of a Buddhist wandering into Kerygmania to enlighten us?
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
What are the odds of a Buddhist wandering into Kerygmania to enlighten us?
You could start a thread in Purg.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
I've always taken the Buddhist teaching (insofar as I understand it from my reading, which is probably not so well) to mean that ALL desire, even for good things that you can legitimately obtain, is inherently wrong, and that the ideal state is to be detached from outcomes and want nothing.
One doesn't have to flee from one eastern religion to another eastern religion to find this. The desert fathers counsel detachment from all material things. (TD, I am not asserting you flee, but there are many who certainly resort to Buddhism for things that may just as well be found in Christianity.)
Of the thirty rungs of John Climacus's Ladder of Divine Ascent there are these:- On renunciation
- On detachment
- On exile
- On non-possessiveness
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
If everyone stopped coveting, our economy would collapse!
No. If everyone stopped desiring our economy would collapse.
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Andromeda
Shipmate
# 11304
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
The way I sometimes look at it - not very scholarly, is this. Coveting, like envy, is a form of hatred.
If you envy someone, it's not because you want something they've got, it's just the fact that they've got it and you haven't.
Coveting is very similar - you want something not because of it's intrinsic value, but because somebody else has it, and you haven't. It's not the acquisition that is important, but depriving the other of it.
This.
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In this world you’ll have trouble. But cheer up! I have overcome the world.
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