Ship of Fools: Those odd, intriguing little bits of the Bible

Thread: Those odd, intriguing little bits of the Bible Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

One of the things I love about reading the Bible is coming across those wonderful little incidents or details which seem to serve no purpose but are just there. They can be baffling, intriguing, and even frustrating. Why are they there? Who are the people casually referred to? What happened to them?

Do you have a favourite odd bit of the Bible?

To start with, here's one of mine:

quote:
They compelled a passer-by, who was coming in from the country, to carry his cross; it was Simon of Cyrene, the father of Alexander and Rufus. (Mark 15:21)

Why do we need to know about Alexander and Rufus? Who were they? Would the original readers/hearers of Mark's gospel have smiled at that point and recognised a reference to well-known people? And don't even get me started on Simon of Cyrene...

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Ooh, I love those! Once wrote a whole month's worth of devotions on them (published in Portals of Prayer, a Lutheran magazine).

I give you our dearly departed but not dead friend, Enoch:

quote:
Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him. Genesis 5:24

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

The explanation I've heard for Alexander and Rufus is that their family became followers of Jesus because of Simon's encounter with Jesus, and thus the sons' names were dropped for the benefit of those in the early church who would have recognized them ... sort of an origin story for Alex, Rufus & co. Pure speculation as far as I know, unless there is some ancient church tradition underpinning it.

As for how much it's possible to milk a small, obscure Bible passage, look no farther than the Jabez phenomenon.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
As for how much it's possible to milk a small, obscure Bible passage, look no farther than the Jabez phenomenon.

Ha! I came across a Jabez book in the Thrift store a couple of days ago and wondered then what had ever happened to that particular craze.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Ever hear the story of Ehud? One of the funniest stories there is. From Judges 3

5 But when the Israelites cried out to the Lord, the Lord raised up for them a deliverer, Ehud son of Gera, the Benjaminite, a left-handed man. The Israelites sent tribute by him to King Eglon of Moab. 16 Ehud made for himself a sword with two edges, a cubit in length; and he fastened it on his right thigh under his clothes. 17 Then he presented the tribute to King Eglon of Moab. Now Eglon was a very fat man. 18 When Ehud had finished presenting the tribute, he sent the people who carried the tribute on their way. 19 But he himself turned back at the sculptured stones near Gilgal, and said, “I have a secret message for you, O king.” So the king said,[a] “Silence!” and all his attendants went out from his presence. 20 Ehud came to him, while he was sitting alone in his cool roof chamber, and said, “I have a message from God for you.” So he rose from his seat. 21 Then Ehud reached with his left hand, took the sword from his right thigh, and thrust it into Eglon’s[b] belly; 22 the hilt also went in after the blade, and the fat closed over the blade, for he did not draw the sword out of his belly; and the dirt came out. 23 Then Ehud went out into the vestibule, and closed the doors of the roof chamber on him, and locked them.

24 After he had gone, the servants came. When they saw that the doors of the roof chamber were locked, they thought, “He must be relieving himself in the cool chamber.” 25 So they waited until they were embarrassed. When he still did not open the doors of the roof chamber, they took the key and opened them. There was their lord lying dead on the floor.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Then Ehud reached with his left hand, took the sword from his right thigh, and thrust it into Eglon’s belly; the hilt also went in after the blade, and the fat closed over the blade, for he did not draw the sword out of his belly; and the dirt came out.

They don't make Sunday Schools lessons like THAT any more, do they?

The detail is so grossly unnecessary.

Posted by StevHep (# 17198) on :

This is a fun scene to visualize

quote:
11 When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, ‘The gods have come down to us in human form!’ 12 Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates; he and the crowds wanted to offer sacrifice.

Acts 14:11-13

[ 25. July 2014, 06:17: Message edited by: StevHep ]

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

Acts 28:1-6, the story of Paul ashore on Malta:

quote:
Once safely on shore, we found out that the island was called Malta. 2 The islanders showed us unusual kindness. They built a fire and welcomed us all because it was raining and cold. 3 Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand. 4 When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to each other, “This man must be a murderer; for though he escaped from the sea, the goddess Justice has not allowed him to live.” 5 But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects. 6 The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead; but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.

Like it for two reasons:
1) The way the crowd's reaction to Paul changes from "he's a terrible murderer" to "he's a god!" within a few moments;

2) The matter-of-fact, almost deadpan way Luke records this, as if it was just one of those things ("Haven't we all been worshipped as a god at one time or another because we survived a snake bite? I know I have.")

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I find this story interesting for a different reason.

We were missionaries in West Africa. One day, there was a very pretty chameleon on the tree outside our house. Our (African) next door neighbours started shouting out, because the chameleon has an almost-mystical symbolism there and they were terrified of it.

So I went outside, took the chameleon off the tree, and placed it on the ground so it could run away. As I did this there were shouts of, "Don't touch it! Don't let it bite you! You'll die!"

Of course, nothing happened to me whatsoever as chameleons are completely harmless. The neighbours were - to coin a phrase - gobsmacked. They looked at me almost as if I had supernatural powers. When I said that chameleons pose no danger at all to humans, they refused to believe me and rationalised their fear by saying, "Ah, it must be that chameleons don't hurt white people"!

So - was Paul's snake poisonous? Or did the islanders merely make that assumption (or regard the snake as some kind of deity or demon)?

[ 25. July 2014, 10:21: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

There's a lovely collection of these that Adrian Plass collected a few years ago and published under the title Blind Spots in the Bible.

One I find quite interesting is the reference to the Nephilim in Genesis 6, though it does spawn some 'entertaining speculation' to put it kindly ( example 1, example 2, example 3).

Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :

Here's one I was introduced to on the Ship itself.

quote:
On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul was holding a discussion with them; since he intended to leave the next day, he continued speaking until midnight. There were many lamps in the room upstairs where we were meeting. A young man named Eutychus, who was sitting in the window, began to sink off into a deep sleep while Paul talked still longer. Overcome by sleep, he fell to the ground three floors below and was picked up dead. But Paul went down, and bending over him took him in his arms, and said, ‘Do not be alarmed, for his life is in him.’ Then Paul went upstairs, and after he had broken bread and eaten, he continued to converse with them until dawn; then he left. Meanwhile they had taken the boy away alive and were not a little comforted.

Acts 20:7-12

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

I always get a chuckle from the reference in Acts 16:16-18 of Paul and Silas getting "annoyed":

quote:
One day, as we were going to the place of prayer, we met a slave-girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners a great deal of money by fortune-telling. While she followed Paul and us, she would cry out, ‘These men are slaves of the Most High God, who proclaim to you a way of salvation.’ She kept doing this for many days. But Paul, very much annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, ‘I order you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.’ And it came out that very hour.

The woman's stunt (or rather, her owners' stunt, she was pretty much of a pawn) would have been annoying indeed, and I appreciate the text's admission that Paul and Silas were not infinitely patient! Also, I think it's one of the few uses of the word "annoyed" in the Bible.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

Sorry for the double post and the tangent:

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:
Then Ehud reached with his left hand, took the sword from his right thigh, and thrust it into Eglon’s belly; the hilt also went in after the blade, and the fat closed over the blade, for he did not draw the sword out of his belly; and the dirt came out.
They don't make Sunday Schools lessons like THAT any more, do they?

I've been known to include it in a Bible "scavenger hunt" activity with the youth group -- "They put *that* in the Bible???!!!"
[/tangent]

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

So - was Paul's snake poisonous? Or did the islanders merely make that assumption (or regard the snake as some kind of deity or demon)?

Does anyone know if there are (or ever were) poisonous snakes on Malta?

There are plentry of bigger islands without poisonous snakes (Ireland & Vancouver Island spring immediately to mind).

Another favourite of mine is also from Mark. 14:51&52:

quote:
A certain young man was following him, wearing nothing but a linen cloth. They caught hold of him, but he left the linen cloth and ran off naked.

Again - why is it here? Who was this man? Is there any significance in the linen cloth or the nakedness? I know some people claim this is Mark himself, but there's not a shred of evidence for this.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

It's not so much about Ehud killing the king that I find funny, but the king's servants finding the chamber door locked thinking that the king was relieving himself (literally covering his feet--as in dropping his drawers to use a modern analogy) and waiting until they became embarrassed.

Try explaining that to a bunch of 11 year-olds.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Then there is the entire Book of Song of Solomon.

Especially this

As an apricot tree stands out in the forest,
All I want is to sit in his shade,
to taste and savor his delicious love.
He took me home with him for a festive meal,
but his eyes feasted on me!
Breathe on my garden,
fill the air with spice fragrance.
Oh, let my lover enter his garden!
Yes, let him eat the fine, ripe fruits.
I'd take you by the hand and bring you home
Where You'd drink my wine

Song of Solomon 5

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

The question of why are the there goes to the mention of Rock badgers in Proverbs 30:26

quote:
the rock-badgers are but a feeble folk, yet they make their house in the cliff;

Has anyone an idea of what this means? My best guess, but it is only a guess, is that it is satire on someone who the writer opposed, seing that rock badgers are amongst the lists of unclean animals in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. But who?

It is mystery.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
The question of why are the there goes to the mention of Rock badgers in Proverbs 30:26

quote:
the rock-badgers are but a feeble folk, yet they make their house in the cliff;
Has anyone an idea of what this means? My best guess, but it is only a guess, is that it is satire on someone who the writer opposed, seing that rock badgers are amongst the lists of unclean animals in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. But who?

It is mystery.

I think it's just a proverb kind of thingy--meaning basically, "If you're weak and you know you are, surround yourself with strong protection." It would be pretty hard to get a rock badger out from its home if it's truly in a cliff. The badger can just sit there and go "neener neener neener" while you try. [Razz]

As for the young man being Mark, there's no real evidence, no; but the episode is just the sort of embarrassing thing that an eyewitness might put in about himself, though he'd probably be too kind to include it about anybody else. Hence the conclusion that Mark was describing his own misadventure.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

I've always read that as a reflection on the totality of Jesus' abandonment: Jesus had invited people to leave all to follow him, but this young man leaves all to run away from him. An enthusiasm Jesus rarely encountered in his disciples' limited pre-Easter positive responses, characterizes his abandonment. It's part of Mark's statement of the impossibility of discipleship without Easter.

I've always wanted to know what the "deep secrets of Satan" mention in Rev 2:24 are.

Posted by Nigel M (# 11256) on :

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Has anyone an idea of what this means? My best guess, but it is only a guess, is that it is satire on someone who the writer opposed, seing that rock badgers are amongst the lists of unclean animals in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. But who?

These 'rock-badgers' (a.k.a. Syrian Hyrax, in Hebrew shephanim) in Proverbs 30 occur in a list of four similar creatures that – according to verse 24 – are small, yet embody wisdom (i.e., the knowledge of how to live). Ants, locusts, and lizards get joint mention with the hyraxes. As LC notes, there doesn't seem to be anything more to the list than a simple comparison: I may be small, but believe me when I say I can get by very well in my environment thank you very much.

What may be causing the mystery in the English versions is that the Hebrew tags some of these creatures with the term 'people' (am = עַם) in the list:

quote:
Prov. 30:24-28
There are four things on earth that are small, but they are exceedingly wise:
Ants are 'people' with little strength, but they prepare their food in the summer;
Rock badgers are 'people' with little power, but they make their homes in the crags;
Locusts have no king, but they all go forward by ranks;
A lizard you can catch with the hand, but it gets into the palaces of the king.

The use of am in a literal sense with non-humans is rare (I couldn't find another such use in the bible) and it has caused the translators a little difficulty. Examples of how they treat this include:

The conies are but a feeble folk... KJV, ASV (I like that expression!)
The rock badgers are a feeble folk... NKJV
The badgers are a people not mighty... RSV
The badgers are a people without power... NRSV
The shephanim are not mighty people... NASB (bit of a cop-out, really)
Hyraxes are creatures of little power... NIV (nice attempt)
Rock badgers are not very powerful... NCV (ducks the 'people' issue completely!)
Badgers as creatures aren’t powerful... CEB
The coneys, a species with little power... CJB
The rock rabbits, a race with no defences... JB

...and so on. This might explain why it appears that the hyrax is a pseudonym for a particular human group or individual. Given that this is a peculiar usage in the Hebrew bible, though, I think it's safe to say that the author is using it poetically / rhetorically to enhance the metaphor: there are people in the world who, just like small ants...etc., are rarely regarded, but who frankly can teach us a thing or two about how to live.

The hyrax also receives special mention in Ps. 104:18 (“The wild goats live in the high mountains; the rock badgers find safety in the cliffs”).

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
As for the young man being Mark, there's no real evidence, no; but the episode is just the sort of embarrassing thing that an eyewitness might put in about himself, though he'd probably be too kind to include it about anybody else. Hence the conclusion that Mark was describing his own misadventure.

C.S. Lewis took it as evidence the scene is an eyewitness account, and not a myth or retelling. Mythical retellings, he says, don't include little unimportant details or incidents -- everything serves the purpose. The idea of inserting fictional little details to make it look like an eyewitness account, he says, came centuries later. Thus he concludes this simply was an eyewitness account. Somebody saw it happen, thought it was interesting, and wrote it down as part of their recollection of the various events they witnessed.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

Had Lewis never read Plato? Or did he think the beginning of the Republic was an eyewitness account of a historical event?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Had Lewis never read Plato?

Well he did get a First in Greats. So probably not.

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

One bit of a familiar story that I find quite odd is the fact that Zaccheus was short and had to climb up a sycamore tree to see Jesus. Aside from giving us a favorite Sunday School song, I'm not sure what the point of that detail is. The main point of Jesus' reaction is that he reaches out to this tax collector (i.e., collaborator with Rome), not Jesus' love for little people.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Why do we need to know about Alexander and Rufus? Who were they? Would the original readers/hearers of Mark's gospel have smiled at that point and recognised a reference to well-known people? And don't even get me started on Simon of Cyrene...

According to Tradition, Simon's son is the Rufus referenced in Romans 16:13 "Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine."

We do know that he got a holy kiss out of it
[Big Grin]

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Why do we need to know about Alexander and Rufus? Who were they? Would the original readers/hearers of Mark's gospel have smiled at that point and recognised a reference to well-known people? And don't even get me started on Simon of Cyrene...
According to Tradition, Simon's son is the Rufus referenced in Romans 16:13 "Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine."

We do know that he got a holy kiss out of it

Yes, I read that bit of Romans just t'other day. And if you consider the possibility (no more than that) that Mark's gospel was written in Rome, then it might support that suggestion.

Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :

Originally posted by Al Elulia:

quote:
One bit of a familiar story that I find quite odd is the fact that Zaccheus was short and had to climb up a sycamore tree to see Jesus. Aside from giving us a favorite Sunday School song, I'm not sure what the point of that detail is. The main point of Jesus' reaction is that he reaches out to this tax collector (i.e., collaborator with Rome), not Jesus' love for little people.

Isn't the point that Zaccheus must have really, really, really wanted to see Jesus? He was a rich man with a lot of 'face' to lose, especially since he was hated as a collaborator and lackey of the Roman invaders. I imagine him as the sort of person who never left his house without a retinue of servants, no doubt including some 'minders'. And yet he ran (ran!) ahead and actually climbed a tree. He certainly got his hands dirty even if he didn't rip his expensive clothes, and to anyone who was watching (and in a town like Jericho someone would certainly have been watching) he must have looked a complete prat. Can't you imagine the gossip ("Zaccheus did WHAT? You're kidding me!"). But he cared enough about seeing Jesus to risk all the ridicule. That's why Jesus singled him out from all the important people in Jericho and went to dine with him.

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
Originally posted by Al Elulia:

quote:
One bit of a familiar story that I find quite odd is the fact that Zaccheus was short and had to climb up a sycamore tree to see Jesus. Aside from giving us a favorite Sunday School song, I'm not sure what the point of that detail is. The main point of Jesus' reaction is that he reaches out to this tax collector (i.e., collaborator with Rome), not Jesus' love for little people.
Isn't the point that Zaccheus must have really, really, really wanted to see Jesus? He was a rich man with a lot of 'face' to lose, especially since he was hated as a collaborator and lackey of the Roman invaders. I imagine him as the sort of person who never left his house without a retinue of servants, no doubt including some 'minders'. And yet he ran (ran!) ahead and actually climbed a tree. He certainly got his hands dirty even if he didn't rip his expensive clothes, and to anyone who was watching (and in a town like Jericho someone would certainly have been watching) he must have looked a complete prat. Can't you imagine the gossip ("Zaccheus did WHAT? You're kidding me!"). But he cared enough about seeing Jesus to risk all the ridicule. That's why Jesus singled him out from all the important people in Jericho and went to dine with him.

Good explanation! I think that actually complements the perspective I had on the story quite nicely.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Pretty much our sermon when the Zacchias passage was the Gospel reading a short while ago. Things like climbing the tree give reality to the account, as well as showing how anxious Zacchias was to see Jesus. Neither need nor place for a scholastic examination.

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
The question of why are the there goes to the mention of Rock badgers in Proverbs 30:26

quote:
the rock-badgers are but a feeble folk, yet they make their house in the cliff;
Has anyone an idea of what this means? My best guess, but it is only a guess, is that it is satire on someone who the writer opposed, seing that rock badgers are amongst the lists of unclean animals in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. But who?

It is mystery.

My favourite story about rock badgers involves the archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby - reported here in the Torygraph.

In a nutshell, when +Welby was still Dean of Liverpool he cracked up whilst reading another OT passage which mentions a rock badger (from Leviticus). The laughter spread from him to the whole congregation. When he was consecrated to Durham his former congregation at Liverpool commissioned a Bishop's crozier with a rock badger carved into the handle.

I love that.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I like the totally random bit where we find out that Peter and the others caught exactly 153 fish when Jesus appeared to them at the shore (John 21). We had it in Bible study today.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

And 153 is a very interesting number, too! [Smile]

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