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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Point of the Book of Jonah
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Jonah is presented in kids' Bible storybooks as about second chances. Jonah runs away, he fouls up, God lets him have a second chance to succeed.
I don't think it can possibly be about that, part of which interpretation hinges on the fact that history doesn't supply Nineveh with the happy ending afforded to it by the book of Jonah.
The Battle of Nineveh was in 612BC/E, right. That was the date that several of the kingdoms of the Middle East teamed up and effectively erased the Assyrian empire, centred in Nineveh, from the face of the eart.
Jonah was composed long after this had happened. I've read different accounts of the composition of Jonah, but the earliest I've seen dates to the fifth century BC/E; a mention of the Twelve Minor Profits in Tobit 14 (the jubilation of Tobias in accordance with the prophets at the destruction of Nineveh, no less) gives a terminus ante quem of early second century BC/E.
So already the place of Jonah as historically factual is problematic (even discounting the Large Sea Creature of Irrelevant Species).
(One Big However: Jonah is referenced in 2nd Kings 14:25 as meeting Jeroboam II, which dates him as first half eighth century, so if you want to go, God was planning to destroy Nineveh then but didn't and changed His mind a century later, that's at least logical.)
Anyway, so here's Jonah, brave and decent (he willingly lets the sailors chuck him over the side to save them) who nonetheless is so appalled by the thought of going to Nineveh that he will go to Tarshish (which may or may not be Sardinia, Carthage, Tartessos or Some Other Place Archaeologists Haven't Thought Of) not to have to give the Ninevites the chance to repent.
And that's explicitly it. He doesn't want to be the means of God's grace against Nineveh.
So when he finally goes there, what happens?
He walks into the outskirts of the city and no further (Jonah 3:3-4) and says what amounts to "you're all going to die, ok, bye." He isn't really doing what God has asked. He obeys the letter of the command, not the spirit of it.
Here's the interesting (for me) bit. It's the Ninevite people, the ordinary people who never asked to be born into an imperial power characterised by war crimes and land theft, who create a mass movement that makes the leader, the leader who Jonah never even bothered trying to come up to, take heed and declare a turnaround.
What did the Ninevites do in the first place, by the way? What was the sin of Nineveh? Jonah only has the King saying, "we shall give up our violence." Nahum however is all about Nineveh, and paints a picture as a rapacious, imperialist place. The "city of bloodshed" (Nahum 3:1).
Point is, Nineveh doesn't need a rundown of what it is, because even at the time of Jonah's composition, it is a byword for an oppressive imperial power.
And here's my thesis. In some sense, I don't think it matters that Nineheh was destroyed, because I don't think that it's the point. Jonah is included in the list of twelve minor prophets, despite containing no oracle because it is not a history book; it's a parable.
When Jonah gets cross with God (twice) for letting the Ninevites live and later for killing his bush, God says, "Wait, you're more bothered about a stupid bush than a hundred thousand innocent men, women and children (and also animals). Really?"
And the story ends. With Jonah not answering. Because there's no point in him answering. Because it's the reader-listener who has to stand up and answer that. Our enemies, the people who oppress us, are people.
And many of them didn't ask to be saddled with that. But they're people. And they deserve mercy and the chance to be forgiven as much as anyone else.
OK. That was by way of a hermeneutic. The next bit is a tentative exegesis.
See, I have this further interpretation in mind, and I can't imagine this ever entered the mind of the writer of Jonah, but Death of the Author and all that.
See, every interpretation and commentary I have seen identifies with Jonah, and not with the Ninevites. but the more I think about it, it seems that out of a person from an oppressed nation with a legitimate grievance or a someone who never asked to be born into an imperial nation with a history of landtheft and interference, it's fairly obvious with which of those I might have more in common.
Jonah preaches not to the leaders - he doesn't travel far enough into the city - but to the people, and it's the people who change things through a mass movement towards repentance.
I think it's a sign for us Westerners that we too can change things, that we should listen to the voices of the people who our governments have stomped on, people who may not ever forgive us, and make the change.
Or something.
OK, I am sure there are holes in this. Pick them for me.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Don't need to pick holes. The story can have any number of meanings.
The one that always pops out at me (naturally) is the missions-related one, which shows God as hugely concerned even for the violent Ninevehites (and their cattle) while unwilling, grouchy, cranky Chosen Person & Prophet™ Jonah does everything wrong and still has the chutzpah to criticize God for it. Rather like the elder brother of the prodigal.
And God's patience even extends to that idiot (aka us), and he tries to reason with him and turn his heart.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
We studied this book for about a week at a youth conference. All of the preaching and learning was framed by it.
One of the exercises for small groups to pursue was to imagine that there was actually another chapter - not supposing one was truly written and had been lost but trying to complete the story. Each group of 24 students began with individuals writing another chapter and then speculated about the possibilities.
No, we didn't come to any real conclusions but the activity of postulating a more complete ending was very useful in finding meaning in what was written.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Random observation that may, or may not, mean anything ...
God sends Jonah to Ninevah, a city renowned for it's evil, the oppression of other nations and hitting each other with fish ... no, wait that's the Veggietales version. Anyway, Jonah goes reluctantly and half heartedly gives his message, calling the people to repent. Then complains that God relented because it just wasn't right, even though Jonah knew full well that God was going to relent if the people repented.
There's another story of a city renowned for it's wickedness, of a divine messenger and an old man telling God off because He can't possibly do what He's going to do. Why didn't Sodom and Gomorrah have the same opportunity to repent? Why didn't God send Abe to preach and call the people to repentance?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
The part of Jonah that always has stuck with me is him setting up his post outside the city to watch the destruction. God gives him shade, then takes it away. Message I take away is "Don't be a dick".
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Alan, in answer to "why not Sodom and Gomorrah": because the books were written/told by different people, with different ideas about God. Jonah, like Ruth and like Job, is one of the subversive books in the bible.
Jonah says God cares about everyone, even the Ninevites who were enemies of Israel to the point of destroying the Northern Kingdom and creating the Ten Lost Tribes. Contra, say, Joshua.
Ruth says all nations can be marriage partners and can be good people. Contra, say, Ezra.
Job says bad things don't happen only because we were bad people. Contra, say, Psalm 1.
[ 15. September 2014, 14:09: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Wood, it might be good to pull into view how the story is used in the NT. Jonah prefigures Jesus' three-day sojourn in the tomb. And, perhaps more importantly, Jonah conquers Sea by sleeping it out in the fish's belly, while Jesus, aroused from sleep, rebukes Sea and uses the incident to prick the disciples' faith.
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Wood, it might be good to pull into view how the story is used in the NT. Jonah prefigures Jesus' three-day sojourn in the tomb. And, perhaps more importantly, Jonah conquers Sea by sleeping it out in the fish's belly, while Jesus, aroused from sleep, rebukes Sea and uses the incident to prick the disciples' faith.
See, I sort of think that Jesus's use of it is the basis to a traditional mireading of the story.
As in, "if Jesus uses that bit it must be the point of the story."
When in fact he just uses that one bit of the story to make one important point at an apposite moment.
[ 15. September 2014, 15:23: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I've always thought one of the points of the book of Jonah is that God is better (more merciful, more forgiving, more full of grace) than His people are, and in fact better than His people want Him to be.
This comes to mind when fellow-Christians tell me that of course THEY wouldn't condemn a friend or family member to eternally burning hell for unbelief, but God does, because God's ways are higher than our ways and we're not to question them. To which I want to say, "Well, actually it sounds like God's ways are considerably LOWER than your ways." So to me one of the points of Jonah is that we should be shocked by how generous and gracious God is, rather than the other way around.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
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jrw
Shipmate
# 18045
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Posted
At least Jonah doesn't appear to be making God in his own image. Or does that make it worse?
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
I've always thought one of the points of the book of Jonah is that God is better (more merciful, more forgiving, more full of grace) than His people are, and in fact better than His people want Him to be.
This comes to mind when fellow-Christians tell me that of course THEY wouldn't condemn a friend or family member to eternally burning hell for unbelief, but God does, because God's ways are higher than our ways and we're not to question them. To which I want to say, "Well, actually it sounds like God's ways are considerably LOWER than your ways." So to me one of the points of Jonah is that we should be shocked by how generous and gracious God is, rather than the other way around.
I remember having one of those conversations only recently. "I'd love to be gracious about (category of people) but God isn't, so sorrowfully, i must condemn them."
There is so much wrong with this.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
"It is not a history book, it's a parable" - of course. And that is its beauty, because the story is capable of being interepreted and reinterpreted by each generation, rather than having a fixed meaning. We all bring our life experience and our culture to bear on each of these stories. Your interpretation, Wood, is just one in a long series of interpretations based on your own understanding of the world and the Word.
I, for one, cannot imagine God being so cruel to someone who doesn't want to do what he is invited to do. Hardly a good example of 'free will' in action.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I, for one, cannot imagine God being so cruel to someone who doesn't want to do what he is invited to do.
Chorister, that makes me think about all the passages in the Bible where one's reaction might be "I cannot imagine God being so cruel as to..." (or some other uncomplimentary adjective besides cruel that we equally hesitate, if not downright refuse, to attribute to God), and how do we read those passages. May I quote your post to start a new thread?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Alan, in answer to "why not Sodom and Gomorrah": because the books were written/told by different people, with different ideas about God. Jonah, like Ruth and like Job, is one of the subversive books in the bible.
I think what I was trying to get at is that Jonah seems to follow the Sodom and Gomorrah story, indeed to parody at times. And, I think that's the point, it's what the author wanted to convey, it's what makes it a powerful, subversive story.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
It's also fun, which has to be part of The Point (tm). Jonah is hilarious! He's the Basil Fawlty of prophets. He whines to God that he is too forgiving. He squirms his way out of divine orders. He sulks.
And everyone around him, from pagan sailors to despotic terror states, are all more righteous than he is. The sailors try to avoid throwing him overboard, then offer sacrifices to the Lord. Nineveh repents so hard even the animals put on sackcloth and ashes and fast.
And it ends with Jonah sitting outside Nineveh, sulking because God won't destroy it (and has also taken away his shade tree).
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's partly a reaction against the increasing exclusiveness of Israel, as witnessed in books like Ezra and Nehemiah. Jonah and Ruth counter-balance it.
It is also meant to be a lampoon and to be funny - so even the cows put on sackcloth.
I think that this is an important point. When I was learning Hebrew (now all forgotten), we translated Jonah. It was then that I realised that the book is filled with awful puns, which you lose as soon as you leave the Hebrew language.
In some ways, Jonah is the Bible book written by Monty Python.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Good stuff, ladies and gents. I think it's important to highlight the fact that the Bible has jokes in it. A lot of people seem to forget that.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I think it's a ripping good yarn. A little bit of a moral, sure, but also some excitement, some syfy/fantasy elements, and a good bit of humor. I've heard it described as "the first short story."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Good stuff, ladies and gents. I think it's important to highlight the fact that the Bible has jokes in it. A lot of people seem to forget that.
There is a thread in Limbo about this.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I, for one, cannot imagine God being so cruel to someone who doesn't want to do what he is invited to do.
Chorister, that makes me think about all the passages in the Bible where one's reaction might be "I cannot imagine God being so cruel as to..." (or some other uncomplimentary adjective besides cruel that we equally hesitate, if not downright refuse, to attribute to God), and how do we read those passages. May I quote your post to start a new thread?
By all means. It sounds like it might be an interesting thread. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
"It is not a history book, it's a parable" - of course. And that is its beauty, because the story is capable of being interpreted and reinterpreted by each generation, rather than having a fixed meaning.
I can't accept this. Maybe I've spent too much time around people who believe the Grand Canyon was made by the Great Flood.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Philip Charles
Ship's cutler
# 618
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Posted
God instructed Winston Churchill to call Berlin to repentance.
"No way" say Winnie.
So Winnie boards the Titanic for the US.
Titanic hits iceberg.
"Who has disobeyed God?"
"I have" says Winnie. And is thrown overboard.
It so happened that captain Nemo was handy (must have had something to do with the Nautilis' infinite improbability drive) and picked Winnie up. After three days of Winnie's praying Captain Nemo had had enough so Winnie was thrown out on the German shore.
After tramping for days through Berlin with its SA and SS Winnie called upon the city to repent, which it did with Hitler dressed in sackcloth.
Outside Berlin Winnie was peeved and complained to God that he had spoiled everything. How could there be a WW2 after all this? ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Posts: 89 | From: Dunedin, NZ | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
At what point does a parody of a parody become a parody of intelligent discussion?
I think the point has already been made that it's a parody, and one in which the Ninevites come off looking far better than Jonah. It's difficult to know whether the original audience for Jonah would have thought of Ninevah with the same loathing we would think of the Third Reich. But, it's certainly possible that they did.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
For me the Book of Jonah is one of the most significant books in the Old Testament and is the one closest to the theology of the New Testament because it is (or completes) a paradigm shift in the Hebrew understanding of the nature of God: He is as much a God of the Ninevites as of the Jews, so that they are, therefore, of equal concern to him. In so doing it challenges the concept of Chosen Race and the tribalistic covenants associated with the Hebrews/Jews. It is a revolutionary parable, whose significance ISTM is generally overlooked.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Philip Charles
Ship's cutler
# 618
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Posted
Agreed. The same with Ruth. A Moabite woman was David's great grandmother. Brrr to racial purity!
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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Posts: 89 | From: Dunedin, NZ | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
With Jonah in this Sunday's lectionary readings, Gramps49 renews the conversation about Jonah thusly: quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
This next Sunday many people will be hearing the story of Jonah after he has preached to Ninevah, and the people, king, and even cattle, repent. There is really a lot of humour in the story.
Jonah 3-4
My question. What type of literary genre do you see Jonah?"
It does seem to have some historical background to the story. 2 Kings 14:25 reports Jonah was a prophet during the time of Jeroboam. However I would say the book of Jonah is definitely an embellishment.
So, is it: 1) a parable; 2) a fable; 3) an allegory; 4) a legend? Or is it a combination of a a number of literary devises.
Also I note that the story really does not have an ending. What do you make of that.
Looking forward to your replies
[edited for brevity and for link]
Mamacita, Keryg Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Thank you, Mamacita for directing me to this thread.
One of the things that catch me about the story is that it seems that God is just as surprised as Jonah at the conversion of Ninevah, if we take the story at face value. (After all, there is free will).
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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