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And children who are to be adopted are all very different to each other as well.

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Now I would accept that she may well, if she were on her own, have been better placed as a only child with a single female parent.

But as a family group their needs were very different,

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I have never said that gay people do not have anything to offer or do not make good parents, or in fact should never be allowed to adopt. My concern has only ever been, as I said somewhere earlier, about any problems any children placed with homosexual couples might face.

I did say at one point that they would have to be selected very carefully because of the extra problems that can be made for them. Particularly where they would stand out like the proverbial 'sore thumb'.

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That's why I came to the uneasy conclusion that in a large city with a variety of people and every sort of family make up etc the situation may be very different to small town, 50 years behind the times

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I can even see that some children who have been damaged by bad parenting from a female, may then thrive with consistant male parenting.

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As previous have suggested there are all sorts of factors in this, children's age, previous life experiences, the sort of placement that they are currently in. Which all makes each situation a very individual one.

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Or that some special needs kids need one working and one stay at home parent - again; lesbian and gay parents sometimes choose this configuration, just as straight couples do. Dan Savage and his partner, for instance.

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Restricting the ability for the non-biological parent to adopt (have legal ties) to the child of their parent. This is very common for same sex partners, especially lesbians who use insemination. When I had my daughter, it was still the case in Ontario that the biological mother had to surrender her legal ties to the baby in order for her partner to adopt.

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It has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the parent, but about the particular issues that children who have been through the care system have.

Born-to children have a resilience and strength that adopted children do not have, because they have known consistent loving. And yes, I do know that that is a vast generalisation, but like many generalisations it has a basis in the truth.

Any child who has always had one/two loving parents of whatever colour/sexual orientation , will be in a better position emotionally to withstand the nastiness of the world, than children who have been dragged around the system.

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Let each case be decided on it's own - but don't close the door on all the families for whom adoption protects their existing family configuration, or can build a family for a child for whom it is a good fit.

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Adopting other peoples damaged children is difficult and not a right, for anybody, and that we have to take care that the right children are placed in the right situation. taking into account a lot of different factors.

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You're right, annieparker, I unreservedly agree with this statement.

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"You willing to die for that belief?"
"I am. 'Course, that ain't exactly Plan A."

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Originally posted by annie parker:
...but of the extra problems that society would have brought down on them, because of their parents.

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quote:Originally posted by annie parker:
...but of the extra problems that society would have brought down on them, because of their parents.

I find this presumption doesn't accord with my experience.

My partner's kids (effectively my step-kids) attend high-school and middle school in a conservative, suburban community in a conservative city in one of the reddest of red-states in the Union. Their friends think it's rather kewl they have two dads.

Why is this presumption taken at face value?

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Adopting other peoples damaged children is difficult and not a right, for anybody, and that we have to take care that the right children are placed in the right situation. taking into account a lot of different factors.

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went to university in the 70's in a time of Tom Robinson and 'glad to be gay' it was a time when we thought that the issues of gay rights was won.

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Blanket bans are unhelpful to children or the professionals they serve. Blanket bans deny children the right to have their welfare being of first and paramount importance.

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I have never said that gay people do not have anything to offer or do not make good parents, or in fact should never be allowed to adopt. My concern has only ever been, as I said somewhere earlier, about any problems any children placed with homosexual couples might face.

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Originally posted by annie parker:
...As has been said several times already (I think) in this thread NOBODY has the right to adopt, all sorts of factors come into play. Though yes all people should be eligible to apply adopt

And it is wrong if a whole group of people are barred from adopting just because of their race/colour/religion/sexual orientation.

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Originally posted by Wiff Waff:
The situation is that now, at least in the UK and at least in theory, nobody can be barred from applying to become adoptive parents just because of their race/colour/religion/sexual orientation/disability/etc.

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For three years, neighbors in a quaint, middle-class community scarcely saw the lanky 16-year-old boy who lived with his adoptive mother and her boyfriend.

Now, they know why: According to authorities, the teen was brutally abused and held captive in his own home. Most recently, he'd been confined to a bathroom, locked from the outside and sealed with a piece of plywood over the window.

By the time he escaped last week, the Florida boy had a broken forearm and scars, scabs and oozing wounds that investigators say mark years of abuse.

<snip>

Last week, the abuse reached a new height, police said. According to an arrest affidavit, Gigliotti and Angelo discovered the boy had found a way to pry open a barricaded window and free himself with a piece of his clarinet.

The teen was forced to strip, and Gigliotti beat him with a piece of wood about three feet long, police said.

The authorities' account continues as follows: When the teen couldn't stand the pain, he grabbed the wood and held it. Gigliotti beckoned her boyfriend, who came in and took the wood away. She then beat him with the metal and plastic ends of a water hose.

After that, his hands were bound with packing tape. He was left nude and with cuts all around his body. The bathroom's electricity was cut, leaving him in darkness.

<snip>

Authorities took him to a hospital, where the full extent of his injuries were uncovered: His arm had been broken for at least three days and he had bumps, scratches, and oozing wounds. Repeated beatings had left scabs and scars.

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Originally posted by Oremus:
As a gay man myself I say yes gay couples should be allowed to adopt but first mixed sex couples should be considered.

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Originally posted by Oremus:
As a gay man myself I say yes gay couples should be allowed to adopt but first mixed sex couples should be considered.

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Originally posted by Harperchild:
No one should stick a vulnerable child into a difficult situation into a volitile area. Unless it's the best possible option at that moment for that child.

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METHODS: Between 1986 and 1992, 154 prospective lesbian mothers
volunteered for a study that was designed to follow planned lesbian
families from the index children’s conception until they reached adulthood.
Data for the current report were gathered through interviews
and questionnaires that were completed by 78 index offspring when
they were 10 and 17 years old and through interviews and Child Behavior
Checklists that were completed by their mothers at corresponding
times. The study is ongoing, with a 93% retention rate to date.
RESULTS: According to their mothers’ reports, the 17-year-old daughters
and sons of lesbian mothers were rated significantly higher in
social, school/academic, and total competence and significantly lower
in social problems, rule-breaking, aggressive, and externalizing problem
behavior than their age-matched counterparts in Achenbach’s normative
sample of American youth. Within the lesbian family sample, no
Child Behavior Checklist differences were found among adolescent
offspring who were conceived by known, as-yet-unknown, and permanently
unknown donors or between offspring whose mothers were still
together and offspring whose mothers had separated.
CONCLUSIONS: Adolescents who have been reared in lesbian-mother
families since birth demonstrate healthy psychological adjustment.

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Originally posted by sebby:
But why on earth would they want to? I would have thought the whole point is to rejoice in being something different - not to ape the boring marrieds?

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Originally posted by sebby:
I'm afraid I must have given the wrong impression in my last post. Re-inforcing stereotypes was certainly not the intention - far from it. Indeed, I write from a position of considerable respect and genuine curiousity.

My point was that the gay community offers a refreshing break from the assumption that one has to be married and have a family to be valid. This pernicious view is still out there in the hidden agenda in many job application forms and the obsession with 'family' worship in churches, although I admit that things are getting slightly better in some, but by no means all, parts of the globe.

A gay person is perfectly capable of fathering/mothering a child and I have no doubt that a loving home would benefit that child, whoever the parents.

But I just can't help feeling that to do so shows a lack of imagination. Isn't it more fun to stare evolution in the face and just laugh? Were I to be gay I would enjoy being a player of the Glass Bead Game and see myself as hugely superior.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
But ironically you seem to be telling homosexuals the same thing but in the exact opposite direction: that it's somehow WRONG for them to choose to be conventional in their lifestyle. Shoehorning homosexuals into being non-conventional is no better than shoehorning heterosexuals into being conventional.

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Originally posted by GodWithUs:
Oh, and to answer the OP's question, as a married gay man with two daughters I say, duh.

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My daughters let me know that many things are icky, too. Particulary the fact that their mom and I might've had sex a few times!

[ 02. October 2010, 20:38: Message edited by: Christian Agnostic ]

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Words to the wise: Don't read Kierkegaard when you're 16, and always set B.S. detectors to 11. "How can I sing a strange song in the Lord's land?"