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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why only men?
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Why would the priesthood (both OT and NT) be limited only to men?
It seems to me that, in both OT and NT days, it is an issue of cultural expediency--men were chosen because people were willing to accept male priests only.
Why then is the issue not solved now? What possible argument could be made, other than tradition?
Finally, why would anybody think God would oppose a female priesthood? What possible motive would God have for that?
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
With all due respect, since you appear to believe that the answers to your questions are self-evident, with whom are you seeking a dialogue?
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
With all due respect, since you appear to believe that the answers to your questions are self-evident, with whom are you seeking a dialogue?
Fair enough. The answers are self-evident to me, but certainly other answers are self-evident to others.
If anyone cares to offer insight into what reasons God might have for choosing or preferring a male priesthood (and I'm not arrogant about it...I'm willing to consider that I could be wrong), I'd be truly interested.
If a past thread has already covered this, then I apologize (and humbly request a link, if possible, as I cannot find it).
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Why then is the issue not solved now? What possible argument could be made, other than tradition?
What's wrong with tradition?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Why then is the issue not solved now? What possible argument could be made, other than tradition?
What's wrong with tradition?
This one excludes half the population from the decision making process.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Why then is the issue not solved now? What possible argument could be made, other than tradition?
What's wrong with tradition?
What is right with it in this instance?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Could the lack of credence given to women be anything to do with menstruation? The fact that they are ritually unclean in many cultures, Jewish and other tribal cultures regularly? Certainly if you read the Pentateuch, women spend a lot of their life unclean, and the priestly castes had to be ritually cleansed - see the Leviticus thread in Kerygmania. If this cleansing is a problem you can see why women might be excluded.
I can see why in primitive societies this is a problem - animals being attracted to the smell of blood, bleeding being something that normally means the person bleeding is injured and may well die either from the wound or the resulting infection. And the superstitions that mean women bleeding doesn't imply death.
[ 19. June 2010, 07:40: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Could the lack of credence given to women be anything to do with menstruation? The fact that they are ritually unclean in many cultures, Jewish and other tribal cultures regularly? Certainly if you read the Pentateuch, women spend a lot of their life unclean, and the priestly castes had to be ritually cleansed - see the Leviticus thread in Kerygmania. If this cleansing is a problem you can see why women might be excluded.
I can see why in primitive societies this is a problem - animals being attracted to the smell of blood, bleeding being something that normally means the person bleeding is injured and may well die either from the wound or the resulting infection. And the superstitions that mean women bleeding doesn't imply death.
Yes, in primitive societies I can see these fears having a hold. But none of this is any excuse whatever for excluding women from the priesthood today.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I didn't say that it was a good reason now.
But those sorts of irrational feelings linger. Have you tried talking about menstruation to teenage boys? Or most men?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I didn't say that it was a good reason now.
But those sorts of irrational feelings linger. Have you tried talking about menstruation to teenage boys? Or most men?
I do, I do, and many other plumbing topics - but only because I love to see them squirm.
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Seriously - I just wonder if it is fear of women which causes some sectors of society to insist on excluding women today (using many spurious excuses) Our local golf club is a case in point.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Fair enough. The answers are self-evident to me, but certainly other answers are self-evident to others.
Did you fail logic in college...?
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
If a past thread has already covered this, then I apologize (and humbly request a link, if possible, as I cannot find it).
Here's the orginal DH thread from back when we only had one per topic.
Posts: 3690 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Yo Curiosity--
I'm no authority in psych stuff, but I can tell that OT Law would mean that the guys would be unclean just as often as the girls. "Any emission of semen" would do it, at least for a day. And since the priests and Levites served from age thirty to fifty, well. . .
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Why then is the issue not solved now? What possible argument could be made, other than tradition?
What's wrong with tradition?
This one excludes half the population from the decision making process.
Buried in that are two unstated premises: that the primary function of the priest is to make decisions, and that people who are not priests are not involved in making decisions.
Both of those premises are false. You can't create a true conclusion out of false premises.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Josephine - do you really think women have a voice in Church affairs where those churches don't allow women priests?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Could the lack of credence given to women be anything to do with menstruation?
Women not serving at the altar has a lot to do with menstruation, at least in the Orthodox Church.
The only blood permitted at our altar ever is the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in the chalice. If the priest or deacon or one of the acolytes begins to bleed for any reason at all -- if the priest nicked his hand with the knife he's cutting the bread with, or if an acolyte was bored and picked at a scab and made it bleed -- he must immediately leave the altar. If it's the priest who is bleeding, the service must be paused until the flow of blood is stopped and he can return to finish the service.
That would make it hard for a woman to serve as a parish priest. "Sorry, we won't be having Liturgy tomorrow, as I've started my period."
Of course, an all-male priesthood is not the same thing as a "lack of credence given to women." And the rule about blood in the altar is not the only reason we have an all-male priesthood. But it is one of the reasons.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Why then is the issue not solved now? What possible argument could be made, other than tradition?
What's wrong with tradition?
What is right with it in this instance?
The answer to what's right about tradition is always "it's tradition." If you are in a traditional church, then tradition means those right, good, and true things that are passed down from our forebears. Modern problems break upon the rocks of tradition. Not the other way around.
But also a subtext underlying your question is that you believe that tradition is wrong in this instance? Why? Presumably because you believe women should be allowed to be priests. Which is to say you believe the tradition is wrong. But why? Presumably because things outside the tradition have led you to believe (a) that the qualifications for the priesthood are a certain set of conditions that don't include sex, and (b) women are just as capable of men at fulfilling those conditions.
Certainly the key factor is whether or not the conditions listed in (a) are sufficient. Whatever your list is, (b) will follow, since there's not much, other than being male, that women can't do. So the vital question is what's on your (a) list. If your (a) list isn't drawn entirely from tradition, then you're saying that tradition is wrong about what should be on the list.
So you're drawing the conclusion that tradition is wrong based on the premise that tradition is wrong. A circle.
Ah! but you say, I a drawing the conclusion that tradition is right based on the premise that tradition is right.
No, I am not drawing any conclusions. The person tied to a traditional understanding of the priesthood is just keeping to their tradition. That's not a conclusion. There is no change involved, either. You can argue, perhaps convincingly, perhaps not, that a preference for tradition over modern trends or a utilitarian understanding of the priesthood is arbitrary.
And indeed it's that utilitarian definition of the priesthood that I think is the crux of the matter. It represents a change in Christian teaching/practice and as such the burden of proof for adopting it lies on the one proposing the change. Once the utilitarian definition is accepted, the okayness of women priests is inescapable (logically anyway). But I haven't seen convincing arguments for the utilitarian definition.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Could the lack of credence given to women be anything to do with menstruation?
Women not serving at the altar has a lot to do with menstruation, at least in the Orthodox Church.
The only blood permitted at our altar ever is the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in the chalice. If the priest or deacon or one of the acolytes begins to bleed for any reason at all -- if the priest nicked his hand with the knife he's cutting the bread with, or if an acolyte was bored and picked at a scab and made it bleed -- he must immediately leave the altar. If it's the priest who is bleeding, the service must be paused until the flow of blood is stopped and he can return to finish the service.
That would make it hard for a woman to serve as a parish priest. "Sorry, we won't be having Liturgy tomorrow, as I've started my period."
Of course, an all-male priesthood is not the same thing as a "lack of credence given to women." And the rule about blood in the altar is not the only reason we have an all-male priesthood. But it is one of the reasons.
Why?
I can't see any correlation whatever between menstrual bleeding and the blood of Christ in the chalice.
[ 19. June 2010, 15:43: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Josephine - do you really think women have a voice in Church affairs where those churches don't allow women priests?
Yes. I am a member of a church that doesn't have women priests. And, yes, women have a voice in the affairs of our Church.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I can't see any correlation whatever between menstrual bleeding and the blood of Christ in the chalice.
It isn't about menstrual bleeding. It's about blood.
Our sacrifice is a bloodless sacrifice. We do not allow any blood on the altar or in the sanctuary other than the blood of Christ. No blood of pigeons, or bulls, or sheep, or humans. It's simply not allowed.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I can't see any correlation whatever between menstrual bleeding and the blood of Christ in the chalice.
It isn't about menstrual bleeding. It's about blood.
Our sacrifice is a bloodless sacrifice. We do not allow any blood on the altar or in the sanctuary other than the blood of Christ. No blood of pigeons, or bulls, or sheep, or humans. It's simply not allowed.
So you said - and I am asking why?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Our sacrifice is a bloodless sacrifice. We do not allow any blood on the altar or in the sanctuary other than the blood of Christ. No blood of pigeons, or bulls, or sheep, or humans. It's simply not allowed.
So you said - and I am asking why?
I thought you wanted to know specifically why menstrual blood is forbidden. It's not just menstrual blood, it's any and all blood.
I don't know exactly why the Church decided to keep blood away from the altar. My guess is that all or nearly all of the early Christians came from traditions where blood was poured on altars -- the blood of birds or bulls or perhaps even humans. Banning blood from the altar made it clear to everyone (believers and nonbelievers alike) that we're different. It was Christ's blood that was shed for the life of the world, not any other blood.
But one of the things about being in a traditional church is that "we do it that way because we do it that way" is a perfectly acceptable and appropriate answer. We use wheat bread for the Eucharist because we use wheat bread. That's how we are taught to do it. That's the tradition we have received. Is there something about wheat that makes it better than any other grain? Of course not. Could things have been different? Could it have happened that the bread for the Eucharist was made from some other grain? Sure. But it didn't happen any other way. We use wheat bread, and only wheat bread, because that's what we do.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
So would I be allowed to train as a priest? I have had a hysterectomy, so no chance of any bleeding.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
You're not getting this, are you?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
So would I be allowed to train as a priest? I have had a hysterectomy, so no chance of any bleeding.
Not having menstrual periods would be necessary for serving as a priest, but it would not be sufficient.
To become a priest, you have to be of a canonical age. You have to be either single, or married only once. (If you are on your second marriage, it doesn't matter whether you were widowed or divorced; the twice- or thrice-married can't be priests.) If you're married, your wife has to be on her first marriage as well. There are other rules as well; I don't know them all because I don't need to.
And even if you meet all the requirements, you still have to be approved by the bishop. You can't just decide you're going to be a priest, the way you can decide you're going to be an electrician. Being a priest is not a trade.
A man becomes a priest through the sacrament of ordination. All of our sacraments require specific "stuff" -- wheat bread and grape wine for the Eucharist, water for baptism, oil for chrismation. Wheat bread and grape wine are not required because they're instrinsically or ontologically or functionallly superior to corn bread and apple cider. We don't use wine because it works better than cider would. Cider might quench your thirst just as well, kill germs just as well, and be just as good at making glad the hearts of man. But we don't use cider. We use wine. We use wine because that's what we use and what we have always used. Tradition.
The "stuff" required for ordination is a male human being. Again, not because a male human being is superior in any way to a female human being, but because that's what we use and what we've always used. Because we do.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You're not getting this, are you?
You are right, I'm not.
Thanks for the explanation Josephine, but 'just because we do' will never be good enough reason for me ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I am a natural rule breaker (Even when the rules make some sense!)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
If you're local I will come visit you when you inevitably get arrested and thrown in jail.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If you're local I will come visit you when you inevitably get arrested and thrown in jail.
I didn't say I break laws - just rules
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Some maverick. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If you're local I will come visit you when you inevitably get arrested and thrown in jail.
I didn't say I break laws - just rules
What's the difference? You only break rules when you know you're not going to get into trouble?
And what Josephine said about the nature of priestly authority. I have no problem with women in ordained positions, but I don't believe the myth that priests are supposed to be ecclesiastic autocrats. It's the layfolk who pay the priests' stipends, after all. That's a lot of political power.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Breaking rules may not get you in trouble with the law - but it sure does annoy the people who write the rules, especially if they are control freaks.
Our local golf club is a prime example - you can turn up in really smart shorts but if they are below the knee you'll be sent home. Turn up in yellow and pink plus fours and you are allowed in. No women 'tho!
But my seious point is that 'It has always been this way' is fine for bread/wine, how we sit/stand etc. But when it discriminates against minorities (or, in this case, half the population) then a re-think is needed. Especially as we know menstrual blood is natural, fine and healthy with nothing whatever to do with death. In fact lack of it means lack of new life!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
I think the claim of women being excluded from decision-making if they are excluded from the priesthood is aimed more at Rome than anywhere else.
On the official, hierarchical level, the Roman Catholic Church has no place for women in its leadership. Everyone from some level of authority on up is a priest. (Well, they're usually cardinals or at least archbishops, not "just" priests.)
Whether or not that's really how the Catholic Church operates is another matter for debate - in the US, at least, the diocesan and parish levels are more important, ISTM (being an Anglo- and not a Roman Catholic). And at that level, women have official input, at least potentially; and they have unofficial input wherever they're responsible for the formation of children. However, I'd guess not many men whose power was limited to childrearing, education, or lay communities and organizations, would consider themselves to be powerful.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But my seious point is that 'It has always been this way' is fine for bread/wine, how we sit/stand etc. But when it discriminates against minorities (or, in this case, half the population) then a re-think is needed. Especially as we know menstrual blood is natural, fine and healthy with nothing whatever to do with death. In fact lack of it means lack of new life!
Actually, lack of it often means you're pregnant and that's presence of new life.
[/tangent]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Especially as we know menstrual blood is natural, fine and healthy with nothing whatever to do with death.
I'm afraid I don't understand whatever point you're trying to make. Could you try again, please?
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
You said that only Christ's blood is allowed near the altar. His blood was (in your view) due to his sacrifice (like the birds, doves, bulls etc of the OT) Menstruation is a sign of health - not death or sacrifice.
Another point on women and decision making. I wonder, if women and mothers were on an equal footing with Catholic priests in the decision making processes - would child abusing priests have been sent on to do the same in other parishes?
I doubt it.
...
<edited because I can't spell>
[ 20. June 2010, 06:48: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
The only case of clergy child abuse that I know of where women were in charge of deciding what to do about it, it was a small congregational non-denominational sort of church. Most of the men were out of town when the women found out about the abuse. They insisted that the pastor leave town within 24 hours. They really didn't care where he went or what he did, as long as he was gone. Of course, he left town. Of course, he set up another church in his new town. Presumably, he continued to abuse.
Women, like men, are human. We can make bad decisions, too.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Just came across this (from the Episcopal Church's new, "trial use" Holy Women, Holy Men observances):
quote:
Loving God, we thank you for the work and witness of Isabel Florence Hapgood, who introduced the Divine Liturgy of the Russian Orthodox Church to English-speaking Christians, and encouraged dialogue between Anglicans and Orthodox. Guide us as we build on the foundation that she gave us, that all may be one in Christ; who with you and the Holy Spirit lives and reigns, one God, unto ages of ages. Amen.
Isabel Florence Hapgood's feast will be observed next week. At any rate, it seems relevant to this thread as an example of a woman exhibiting a very strong leadership role in Orthodoxy! Of course, since I haven't googled her yet, this collect is all I know about her, but still... ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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QJ
Shipmate
# 14873
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Posted
I can't remember the authors name, but he came to the conclusion that he would never again join a church that would not let a qualified woman hold any post in the church. After reading his thoughts in his book "Wounded Warriors" i agree with him. However, if God really only wanted men as priests, then the point would be obedience which is important enough in itself.
tonight, i had a great fathers day dinner. It was at a seafood restaurant and most of the food was tainted with forbidden meats. YUM!!!
A logical person who looked in the standard American local phone book can see that christians are as mixed up as could be imagined with the variety of doctrines, possible all made up by men. Perhaps its time the women got to make up some holy rules?
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QJ
Posts: 111 | From: PA | Registered: Jun 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Ellen White made up some doctrine. As did Mary Baker Eddy.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
I was wondering about the argument from tradition and why it seems insufficient (to most of us) when applied to other professions which used to exclude women, such as law or medicine (or voting) but some hold forth as perfectly reasonable for religious professionals when I came across this.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And indeed it's that utilitarian definition of the priesthood that I think is the crux of the matter. It represents a change in Christian teaching/practice and as such the burden of proof for adopting it lies on the one proposing the change. Once the utilitarian definition is accepted, the okayness of women priests is inescapable (logically anyway). But I haven't seen convincing arguments for the utilitarian definition.
Perhaps the distinction is that unlike doctors, lawyers, engineers, voters, etc. the clergy serve no useful (i.e. "utilitarian") function, making discrimination more palatable in this instance.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Perhaps the distinction is that unlike doctors, lawyers, engineers, voters, etc. the clergy serve no useful (i.e. "utilitarian") function,
I would expect an atheist to say no less. But for believers, at least those of us in traditions with an ordained priesthood, this is not the case, as many other threads on the Ship could attest. For the sacraments are, to us, an indispensable part of our religion, and thus those that administer them are of great utility, indeed.
[spling]
[ 21. June 2010, 02:48: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Perhaps the distinction is that unlike doctors, lawyers, engineers, voters, etc. the clergy serve no useful (i.e. "utilitarian") function,
I would expect an atheist to say no less. But for believers, at least those of us in traditions with an ordained priesthood, this is not the case, as many other threads on the Ship could attest. For the sacraments are, to us, an indispensable part of our religion, and thus those that administer them are of great utility, indeed.
[spling]
So a priest without a penis might accidentally change wine into Christ's lymph instead of His blood? I'm not buying the whole "chicks can't do magic, but dudes can" argument. More to the point, doesn't the focus on the adherents ("for believers", "to us") inherently admit that the only distinction here is the sexism of the faithful?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
It's not an argument. It's our tradition. One of the many requirements for the priesthood is a penis. Oh well.
[ 21. June 2010, 03:09: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's not an argument. It's our tradition. One of the many requirements for the priesthood is a penis. Oh well.
I noticed you haven't addressed the main question. Why do we find statements like "one of the many requirements to be a medical doctor/lawyer/voter is a penis" to be abhorrent, but the priesthood gets a pass? The male-only tradition is historically just a strong in those areas (until recently), but "tradition" is regarded as inadequate. Or is this just a case of "my tradition is sacred, yours is discriminatory"?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Qualifications for doctors are strictly utilitarian; there is no spiritual or religious component. Qualifications for religious offices have religious components. Go figure.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I have great respect for Orthodoxy in much of its theology, but I personally can't get past the feeling that if I belonged to Orthodoxy, while I'd be on the bus, I'd be always pointed to the back of the bus with the other second class members. Women as a class are pre-judged to be deficient for service to God in a major capacity. It has nothing to do with individuals and their gifts and talents; it has to do with being in an excluded class.
This is sadly what I can't get past. Obviously, Orthodox women who stick with it don't feel that way. That's fine. My feelings are mine; theirs are theirs, and they've found a good spiritual home.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Qualifications for doctors are strictly utilitarian; there is no spiritual or religious component. Qualifications for religious offices have religious components. Go figure.
Although most owners are very fond of them, having a penis is not exactly a religion. I think it could more aptly be described as a physical component rather than a religious one.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
It's a real sticking point, Lyda, and I certainly can't blame you for feeling the way you do. It's something that I grit my teeth over, still. But I feel like Peter when Jesus said "eat me." Where shall I go? This is where I have found the words of eternal life.
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