Ship of Fools: The emotional toll

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

I am so angry. (And no, this doesn't belong in Hell, at least I hope not.)

And I've been crying.

Why am I so angry and upset? Because I just spent a long weekend in Sydney and I had a really great time.

Bizarre? Maybe.

But it's because I should have been having that really great time something like 15 years ago, in my early 20s. Maybe even as a teenager.

I should have been experiencing those kinds of things at the same age as any heterosexual would hope to. Going out on a Friday or Saturday night with friends. Hoping to catch the eye of that person across the room. Or kissing on a park bench. And giggling.

All of that was denied me. And now that it's no longer denied, I'm finding out how good it is. And finding out what I was missing out on is making me furious.

This is what being in the closet did to me. This was what all the advice to suppress my desires and fight against them led to. It pushed back my entire relational development so that I've been trying to find out about boys in my mid-30s.

I keep having this feeling that I'm running out of time or racing against the clock. It's not entirely rational, I know. But it's based on the notion that by this age I should have been in a position to find a man and settle down, maybe even had my heart broken the first time around before finding the person I want to spend the rest of my life with. If I was single and trying to get into the dating scene at this age, it should be that I was trying to get BACK into it, not a beginner.

I feel like I've lost an entire part of what should have been my life and I can't ever retrieve it.

*deep breath*

I think what I'm trying to raise as a point of discussion is that those who ask gays not to act on their feelings (especially when it's acknowledged that being gay is unchangeable) don't comprehend the damage that's inflicted. It's not a case of the feelings and desires being replaced with something else good. It's an empty space. A nothingness.

A loss of part of life that most heterosexuals take for granted. Even if it doesn't work out, heterosexuals get to take the ride, the adventure of trying to find someone.

And they took it away from me. For years, it just wasn't something I could have. It felt bad enough then, but now that I understand more of what I missed out on in the past... somehow it feels even worse.

It's the emotional equivalent of pins and needles. And it hurts like crazy.

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

Amen. To infinity and beyond.

I waited til 32; that was an isolated outbreak and the opportunity has not recurred. Now, at the age of 38, I'm really panicking about the feeling that time has run out for me.

Sublimation is very largely a myth made up by bigots for their own comfort. The reality is almost entirely repression, which is entirely destructive in nature and consequence.

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :

I find it particularly galling when married heterosexual men stand up in meetings extolling the joy that is the gift of celibacy and that teh gayz should be greatful to serve God in that way. They can [insert word of choice here] right off, smug [insert other choice word here].
These are the same folk who would counsel young heterosexual couples that it is better to marry than burn.
Teh gayz just have to burn, it would seem.

The church, for the most part, is not a healthy place for LGBTQ people... life in all its fullness is apparently only available to heterosexuals.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

[Votive]

orfeo

Flirting was fun (before marriage). [Big Grin]

[ 15. March 2011, 13:55: Message edited by: Evensong ]

Posted by iGeek (# 777) on :

Understood. It was 47 for me. Absolutely sucks to go through deferred adolescence at that age.

But go through it we do and capture what joy we can in the process.

And it is never too late to meet someone who you figure out you want to spend the rest of your (speedily decreasing quantity of) mortal years with.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

I find it a bit galling that the OP assumes heterosexuals get the fun they want when they are younger. Or older. Many, probably most, don't. And a large minority of men (and a smaller one of women) effectively have no sexual contact with anyone at all during their lives. Its just you see the ones who are doing alright. The other man's grass is always greener.

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :

Orfeo did say 'would hope to'...

Posted by Apocalypso (# 15405) on :

As the relative of someone who took a lo-o-ong, lonely, agonizing time discovering who she was and what that meant, let me just say: [Votive]

for all who get forced through this mincer by:

parents & other family who never stop to ask themselves if their assumptions about a kid's heterosexuality might possibly Not Apply;

teachers and school systems likewise;

anyone who uses the word "gay" as a pejorative;

and the incredible crushing demands of a society which idolizes conformity.

And for those feeling "passed by:" please know that a friend of mine has just celebrated, with all joy and appropriate hooplah, the first anniversary of his marriage to his One True Love last week at the age of 57. They met at a gay rights event three years ago.

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I find it a bit galling that the OP assumes heterosexuals get the fun they want when they are younger. Or older. Many, probably most, don't. And a large minority of men (and a smaller one of women) effectively have no sexual contact with anyone at all during their lives. Its just you see the ones who are doing alright. The other man's grass is always greener.

I find it more than a bit galling that the point of such an eloquent post as Orfeo's can be so comprehensively lost on some. I suppose the fact that I identify with it so strongly colours my reaction, but for me, the central point Orfeo is making is about the sense of lost time, coupled with huge frustration at the sheer number of hurdles he/we had overcome to reach what for most seems to be the starting line. The fact that there are a fair few others that don't make it over the starting line is not the point. You stand a significantly better chance of making it beyond that point if you don't have to waste a huge amount of time and energy to get to it in the first place.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I find it a bit galling that the OP assumes heterosexuals get the fun they want when they are younger.

Way to miss the point, ken. Straight people as a group don't face what gay people do. Not even close.

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :

(Orfeo, please post a picture, preferably in a Speedo, and the Ship's unbiased panel of homosexual experts will rate you on the International Hottie Scale so you'll know what to expect during your sunset years.)

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :

I am however, reminded of someone I once heard say "I've given up all hope of ever having a better past." - It is what it is. At least you're getting kissed on the dance floor now. And as someone who came out in his early 20s, youth is indeed wasted on the young. Although coming out in the French Quarter in New Orleans in the 1970s did have a up side, I admit.

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

orfeo, I'm not certain the reflections of an older gay man on another continent are going to be any comfort--the experiences can be so different depending on context, and there was a big difference between my coming out in the early 1980s and the experience of those coming out just five years before.

But..I found my partner when I was 43, and we are coming up on ten years together. For whatever reason, that seemed to be a fairly typical age for men of my generation to find life partners.

It's a good life. I would like to think we would have been equally happy had we met in our 20s, but I suspect we wouldn't have made it--we needed to be the people we were when we met in our 40s.

I know nothing about where you live, but I will just add--if you aren't living in a city, you need to move. The problem with the small town where I lived before I moved to Atlanta was that I literally knew every gay man in the village--and those very few who were available were not good matches for me. I wouldn't expect that to be something you could do overnight, but if you make it a priority it can happen.

We both know how much free advice is worth even from one's best friends. Free advice on the internet surely has even less value--so I'm not going to be offended if you tell me to buzz off. The things you describe ARE as annoying as hell, but things really can get better (and that's about as saccharine as I ever care to get on the Ship).

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

{{{{{Orfeo and all with similar situations}}}}}

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I find it a bit galling that the OP assumes heterosexuals get the fun they want when they are younger. Or older. Many, probably most, don't. And a large minority of men (and a smaller one of women) effectively have no sexual contact with anyone at all during their lives. Its just you see the ones who are doing alright. The other man's grass is always greener.

Ken, as noted, I did say 'would hope to'.

I'm under no illusion about the fact that 'the dating game' can be pretty damn cruel, regardless of the gender you're attempting to date. But difficult, cruel and challenging is still not the same as impossible and forbidden.

You have no chance of winning the lottery if you're banned from buying a ticket.

Also, just how much 'fun' are 'most' heterosexuals not getting? Are you really trying to tell me that most heterosexuals don't ever get the fun of having someone to make eyes at?

Frankly, I think you read about my 'fun' and your mind immediately travelled to sex. You headed straight for the endgame.

I'm not talking about sex. I'm talking about public displays of affection. If you want the grisly details, sex isn't new to me. Also, it's quite feasible to have sex while in the closet (although I didn't).

I'm talking about the ability to play handsies with a guy in a bar, and kiss him, and not care who's watching. Or even to hope someone is watching. Or in a park, to care as much as a straight couple who have a little bit of decorum might. That is, to stop when someone's coming close by - without being terrified about whether they caught a glimpse before you stopped.

Anway, given the number of heterosexual couples I see around, and how many people are paired up to the point of marriage (THERE'S a public display of affection for you), and also given the sheer size of the planet's population (ie, you lot keep breeding), I simply don't believe your counter-offer is accurate.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I find it a bit galling that the OP assumes heterosexuals get the fun they want when they are younger. Or older. Many, probably most, don't. And a large minority of men (and a smaller one of women) effectively have no sexual contact with anyone at all during their lives. Its just you see the ones who are doing alright. The other man's grass is always greener.

That's what I was thinking. Sounds like orfeo's experience in his 20's was similar to that of an ugly heterosexual. Heck, he at least gets to experience it now. Ugly straight man? Not so much...

Apparently, we've missed the point. Oh well...

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I find it a bit galling that the OP assumes heterosexuals get the fun they want when they are younger. Or older. Many, probably most, don't. And a large minority of men (and a smaller one of women) effectively have no sexual contact with anyone at all during their lives. Its just you see the ones who are doing alright. The other man's grass is always greener.
That's what I was thinking. Sounds like orfeo's experience in his 20's was similar to that of an ugly heterosexual. Heck, he at least gets to experience it now. Ugly straight man? Not so much...

Apparently, we've missed the point. Oh well...

This patronising crap is getting very close to the divide between DH and hell.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

Another late bloomer here.

Do I feel regret over my having to remain in the closet so long? Sure. Last weekend I was at my old university for a conference, and as I was showing DP around my old haunts I couldn't help but think, "What a difference it would have made if I'd have been able to come out in my 20's."

But I don't regret ending up where I am now. Too much "couldawouldashoulda" can be counterproductive.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Sounds like orfeo's experience in his 20's was similar to that of an ugly heterosexual. Heck, he at least gets to experience it now. Ugly straight man? Not so much...

I've experienced the 'joys' of unreturned feelings as a gay man too, thanks for asking.

And yes it hurts. But it doesn't leave me the same sense of feeling like someone owes me an apology.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Sounds like orfeo's experience in his 20's was similar to that of an ugly heterosexual.

Ugly heterosexuals could get beat up if they held hands with a girl in the park? Had to be afraid for their safety and possibly their very lives if they were caught kissing a girl in public?

I'm not sure you really thought that over before you hit "Add reply."

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Depends on where he was and how much that has changed now. Sine came out in the 70's. My understanding wasn't that he stayed in the closet out fear but because he was told to supress his feelings and attractions. Sounded like a religious issue.

Ugly heterosexual kids get beat up as well and they don't kiss the girl on a park bench. Jerks and bullies invent reasons to be jerks and bullies. Granted, for various reasons, gay people and those suspected of being gay have it particularly hard.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Granted, for various reasons, gay people and those suspected of being gay have it particularly hard.

Which pretty much obviates everything else you've said.

Posted by Paddy O'Furniture (# 12953) on :

I was an early bloomer and got rocks, bottles, and fists thrown my way for my refusal to "tone down" my appearance and my attitude. I always have had too big a mouth to stay in the closet. I still didn't sow many wild oats, however. I have always been too nerdy or too silly or too something-or-other to attract any women... except the maniacs. I dated far too many maniacs, unfortunately. Low self image and a Catholic upbringing contributed to that.

Then, in my late thirties, I met the love of my life and we've been out and proud and in a great relationship for five years now. But I can certainly sympathize with those who are late bloomers.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

BA--

People get horribly bullied for all sorts of reasons. I was, and not due to sexual orientation.

That doesn't mean LGBT folks have it easy.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
preferably in a Speedo

(I draw the line at Speedos. At least until I do some more work on my abs. I can maybe do you a tight shirt or a sleeveless top. I'm pretty happy with my arms. Do you like arms?)

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Granted, for various reasons, gay people and those suspected of being gay have it particularly hard.
Which pretty much obviates everything else you've said.

Not really. There are many heterosexuals who are for whatever reason - looks, disability, low intelligence, etc. - social outcasts and who are never even considered as mate material and suffer tremendously because of it. The difference for many is they can't one day choose to come out with a chance at happiness. There is undeserved suffering in many corners. It's just sad that each group can't identify with the other and empathize and support each other.

Orfeo, it's never too late to find love. I've got friends, both hetero and homosexual who have found love late in life. Don't let the anger at the past spoil the enjoyment of the present.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Beeswax Altar and ken, the kids I know and have dealt with, these are youngsters in their teens and early 20s - they cannot come out in this area as teenagers. The suspicion of being gay, as in they are not dating heterosexually from 14 or 15 attracts bullying, the homophobia is such. I am not in a city, but in a market town and I'm thinking of here and a neighbouring new town.

In the world of school that means not being allowed to change in the school changing rooms because none of the other teenagers will go in the same room as them and change. I know finding all your kit in the latrines is a usual form of bullying for anyone, but it's normal for those suspected as being gay, every time they dare to go near the changing rooms. It means never being able to say who you'd like to date, or hold hands with anyone under the desk, or be seen dressed up going for a date, or joining in the chat about what you've done or where you've been at the weekend. You can't touch anyone of the same sex of you without having a rough time.

The best advice we could give these kids was to keep a low profile - ie stay in the closet - for their own safety. And that was those of us who were gay-friendly, not those who still had section 28 dinning in their ears. One kid I know who was having such a rough time at their school aged 14 seriously investigated setting up a LGBT group. It wasn't allowed in school. The situation was so bad, they read the Human Rights Act and went back into school to challenge school policy on contravention of human rights - and didn't get anywhere.

The kids who had it slightly better had gay PE teachers. Watching one such informing homophobic bullies that in their class the law of averages meant at least one person in the class was gay, if not several, and, that the student in front of them might just be one ... was joyous. But thinking of one lad I watched fall apart aged 16 who is now 22 or 23, it didn't stop them being in (self-)denial about their own sexuality because the prevailing culture is such that being gay is unacceptable.

You can both lech at whoever you want - people will just roll their eyes. It's acceptable for you to be attracted to unattainable women and try to chat up anyone you fancy - the fact you might not get anywhere is true for anyone, but it's acceptable - and if you don't go too far with the wrong person's partner, you're not at risk of being taken outside and being beaten up. That's not the case for gays even thinking about chatting up someone in a bar.

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

Reading CK's excellent account, a natural response may well be "yes fine, that's what it's like for kids in school; these guys are in their mid to late 30s - they need to get a grip now". The problem with this analysis is that what we are facing is the consequence of the persistence of that essentially adolescent state 20 years beyond its sell-by date, which is corrosive in the extreme, and what I certainly am saying is that it is in large part cultural conditions, especially as I have internalised them, which have left me in this position (at this point, I don't want to speak for anyone other than myself). Three years' counselling has done something to allow me to reduce the internal psychical pressure to a survivable level; I am only just beginning to be able to make fundamental changes which are visible to the outside world in the way in which I actually live.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
You can both lech at whoever you want - people will just roll their eyes. It's acceptable for you to be attracted to unattainable women and try to chat up anyone you fancy - the fact you might not get anywhere is true for anyone, but it's acceptable - and if you don't go too far with the wrong person's partner, you're not at risk of being taken outside and being beaten up. That's not the case for gays even thinking about chatting up someone in a bar.

Thank you! That's exactly it. It's not about whether you're getting somewhere (or getting some [Biased]

), it's about whether you're even allowed to dream of getting somewhere.

I think I've mentioned before how, as a Christian, I'd bought into the whole notion of finding the love of my life and marrying them LONG before I realised I was gay. But then the whole notion became impossible. I wasn't even able to dream about it.

Losing the ability to dream about it made me pretty well suicidal on the day that 2 of my heterosexual friends got married. It wasn't because I was thinking 'I don't have that', it was because I was thinking 'I can NEVER have that. Ever.'

I'm overjoyed that the dream is back. But I'm also angry that it was ever taken away from me.

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

There were also the straight kids who others were sure were gay and suffered bullying and other trauma, including getting beat up. There was one gay guy and one straight girl who committed suicide rather publicly when I was in high school. There were also straight kids for whom gym class and dressing rooms were trauma filled events. I was friends with a wide spectrum of kids in school and as a young adult, both straight and gay, popular and outcast, bullied and looked up to. With respect to religion, as a paraplegic, I can't tell you how many times I've been told there is sin in my life or even that I'm possessed because of my disability. It seems there's always someone to consider less than you or not who needs to be kept out of society. And we never seem to learn.

Posted by amber. (# 11142) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
... Also, it's quite feasible to have sex while in the closet ..

Depends how stable and well built the closet in question is [Disappointed]

. Some collapse, I find.

But seriously, orfeo [Overused]

re the long term effects of repression on many people. Thank you.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Granted, for various reasons, gay people and those suspected of being gay have it particularly hard.
Which pretty much obviates everything else you've said.
Not really. There are many heterosexuals who are for whatever reason - looks, disability, low intelligence, etc. - social outcasts and who are never even considered as mate material and suffer tremendously because of it.

True but that wasn't the point of the postings; the point of the postings was, "Other people, straight people, also have problems so shut up." Which suddenly was abandoned; hence what I said.

quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
There were also the straight kids who others were sure were gay and suffered bullying and other trauma, including getting beat up.

<raises hand>

[ 16. March 2011, 13:17: Message edited by: mousethief ]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

I think it should be understood that the process of "coming out" involves a somewhat complex interplay of external social environment and individual personality traits. My partner and I were effectively out in Texas in 1974 at the ages of barely 20 and barely 19, respectively, by which time we were living together in a relationship that has now endured more than 36 years (and really he had been out pretty much through his adolescence in Venezuela before coming to the States at the age of 18). Yet, before going away to university I had only known one or two gay people out in the quite conservative city of Lubbock, Texas where I finished high school, neither of whom I found particularly attractive role models. The ambient culture was certainly disapproving and repressive. Yet this didn't succeed in causing me to deny my essential sexuality, though I did struggle with it during adolescence. I'm sure there must have been plenty of my peers with homoerotic proclivities, but the question arises as to why I was able to come out relatively easily for the time and place, whilst others were not. Certainly finding a partner whom I deeply loved and of whom I was fiercely proud made a big difference. Yet being able to readily get into such a relationship was again a function of personality. I've always had what is commonly called a rebellious streak and have never been anything other than a very partial social conformist. It might be easy to misrepresent this as existential courage, but that would be claiming virtue where the reality has in truth been more one of psychological imperatives. To be in a relationship does make it a lot easier to be out, because the observable relationship - two persons of the same gender living together - tends to make things fairly obvious to many or most persons, especially as one gets past one's mid-twenties. Social evolution over the past 36 years has made it easier to be more frankly out, again very much in the context of our being a married/partnered same-sex couple. I've increasingly thought it important to be out, because if we all came out it is, I think, pretty well assured that social oppression would cease entirely. But only an examination of the unique psychological and social factors in the case of the individual person can reveal why one person came out early and another waited until middle age (or in other cases never came out at all). A strong need for self-assertion, in combination with some source of social support, would seem to be important factors in prompting one to come out,however. Still, I suspect that the former is more crucial than the latter.

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :

I quickly picked up on the fact that nice older gentlemen (in their 30s) would take one out to dinner and buy one drinks. This was such an improvement over my having to pay for some girl's dinner that coming out was made much easier.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

HA! These days, if the second drink isn't on you, there's likely to be a problem!

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :

That's the real drawback of being over 25.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

It's okay, I'm financially better off than many of my dates...

...maybe I should have been aiming to become a sugar daddy all this time and didn't realise it! [Razz]

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :

If you're buying you'll do JUST FINE.

Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :

I don't actually track DH too often, and I am ignorant as per personal experience, but highly supportive as per social experience.

Just a few points:

My children when in highschool an university were part the "Gay-Straight Alliance" which has slightly different labels but means the same things. It is about living live with integrity. And that should be important to everyone.

Gay people do get married in Canada, and we are close friends with 2 couples. I see again the issues of acceptance and integrity.

Love is. Please go after it where you find it. Period. Make no excuses. Be happy.

The Anglican Church movement is called Integrity and I think it is fitting. Even if the church really does a bad job lots of the time.

At any rate, kind thoughts, prayers and actions from an ignorant but supportive friend.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
Gay people do get married in Canada, and we are close friends with 2 couples. I see again the issues of acceptance and integrity.

Yup. Every time I hear someone argue against gay marriage and how it's going to destroy society, change too many things etc etc, I have the urge to just shout 'CANADA!'

Integrity. How letting people live with integrity could be a bad thing, I've no idea.

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
Gay people do get married in Canada, and we are close friends with 2 couples. I see again the issues of acceptance and integrity.
Yup. Every time I hear someone argue against gay marriage and how it's going to destroy society, change too many things etc etc, I have the urge to just shout 'CANADA!'

Integrity. How letting people live with integrity could be a bad thing, I've no idea.

Gay people are just evil and wrong, so can't possibly be interested in things like integrity. Teh gayz just want to have sex with everything over and over again.

Geddit?

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Have sex with everything?

Not members of the opposite sex obviously.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Have sex with everything?

Not members of the opposite sex obviously.

I'm willing to bet that the people FooloftheShip is mocking lump all GBLT into "teh gayz" and so this is possibly not accurate.

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

Orfeo,

If you are interested in becoming a sugar daddy, I need someone to pay for my seminary education [Big Grin]

I'm 27 and never had a serious relationship before. Yeah, there are times when I long for a companion, but even though it might sound cheesy to say, I easily miss the blessings that I do have. I have good friends who care for me and live in a beautiful city.

I didn't come out until I was 19, and only really came out to everyone last year (the family was the last group of people I was out to). So in some ways I consider myself still a "young-in." Do I think that I would be in a relationship if I came out earlier? Perhaps, but I'm the first person to admit that I wasn't mature back then (There are days when I think that I'm not mature now.) But at least now, I feel secure in myself that I won't jump into a relationship simply for the point of being in a relationship.

A lot of my single straight female friends feel similarly. They say that as a result of becoming older, they tend to be more discerning in what exactly they are looking for in a partner. Instead of a pretty face, they are looking for people who are compassionate, gentle, and loving. And same with me, though admittedly being physically attractive doesn't hurt.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Call me. [Big Grin]

Posted by iGeek (# 777) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Have sex with everything?

Not members of the opposite sex obviously.

But of course.

Any old port in a storm, as they say...

Posted by teddybear (# 7842) on :

I was 23 when I came out, but didn't date much until I was in my 30's. Never had much luck with relationships until about 8 years ago when a sweet 21 yo guy decided I was the man for him. It took me a while to get used to the idea, but now I'd be lost without him. We keep hoping that one day we can be legally married.

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Have sex with everything?

Not members of the opposite sex obviously.
I'm willing to bet that the people FooloftheShip is mocking lump all GBLT into "teh gayz" and so this is possibly not accurate.

Indeed. I have heard some rather astounding numbers of one evening sexual encounters mentioned by those who lump them all together. If they couldn't leave their prejudices, one would have thought the math alone would have convinced them it wasn't true. ETA: When reminded of the simple mathematical impossibility, the numbers get reduced, but are still ludicrous. And of course, they know it's true. [Paranoid]

[ 17. March 2011, 07:13: Message edited by: Niteowl2 ]

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

This is a very moving thread to read, and I am grateful to orfeo for starting it. I know of gay men in their 50s who have never been out on a date. Who have never had a kiss or a cuddle. Who may have had sex, but have never had a relationship. And who can't risk going to gay bars, or the equivalent, because any small move towards coming out could cost themtheir job.

Now there is a lot more to life than relationships and job security. But there is an awful lot of stuff that an awful lot of people take for granted which such gay people have not known, and may never know.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

Orfeo, that OP was magnificent.

My own dynamics are rather different. As a terrified teenager I was so far in the closet the only person I could reasonably expect to date was Mr Tumnus. Then in my mid-twenties I came out, with the help of a handful of wonderful friends - one especially, to whom I owe everything I might reasonably call my life. Idiot that I was, I then put myself up for ordination, believing the CofE to be a rather more liberal place than it turned out to be. In practical terms it meant a partial return to the closet - you hear of "out" or even partnered vicars, but a change of bishop from liberal to conservative, and you can lose your livelihood and your home if he takes a dislike to you.

Now in my late 40s, I think I've found a place of peace. Most days. And most days I can be happy for, rather than resent, the men I see walking hand in hand through the few areas of the city where it's comparatively safe for them to do so. It's an aspect of life that's happened to other people, not to me, and I'm glad for them. But still, on rare, terrible nights, my house and my bed feel so empty, it scares me.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
As a terrified teenager I was so far in the closet the only person I could reasonably expect to date was Mr Tumnus.

Quotes file.

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :

Well, I guess 'friend of fauns' does make a change from 'friend of Dorothy'

Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
As a terrified teenager I was so far in the closet the only person I could reasonably expect to date was Mr Tumnus.
Quotes file.

New thread may be required. Which residents of Narnia were gay? I can certainly see Tumnus. I always wonder about Puddleglum. Notwithstanding the movie, Prince Caspian?

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
As a terrified teenager I was so far in the closet the only person I could reasonably expect to date was Mr Tumnus.
Quotes file.
New thread may be required. Which residents of Narnia were gay? I can certainly see Tumnus. I always wonder about Puddleglum. Notwithstanding the movie, Prince Caspian?

Well I definitely wouldn't be playing with the Beavers.

(But are there any otters (definition 2) in Narnia? [Biased]

)

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
it's because I should have been having that really great time something like 15 years ago, in my early 20s. Maybe even as a teenager.

Hi orfeo - my sympathies. Don't take this as a snark because it really, really isn't: I know the pain of crying for the *snows of yesteryear* (or over spilt milk if you prefer). I know what it's like to scream into your pillow at night in incoherent rage against what seems to be a whole world that doesn't understand.

I took me many years (and some good counselling) to get to a position of *this is what I am - if you don't like it, well tough tittie* but along the way, I also learned that resentment is the poison you drink in the hope that someone else will die of it. Good luck, mate.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Not taken as a snark at all.

The whole "I'm so bloody angry" phase only lasted a day, day-and-a-half this time around. And some of the responses on this thread definitely helped me move on.

Hopefully when I'm a wise old man I'll just go 'Eh'.

But, at the same time, there's something to be said about the idea that the world needs to hear our stories. There are people who will just go 'what's the big deal' or 'why do gays have to come out' if they don't understand the effects of the closet on GLBT life. And they won't understand the effects if they don't hear our stories.

I've certainly heard some stories that make me feel passionately that we need to stop the damage. I've heard the story of a friend of a friend who threw himself off a bridge, and survived. Many of course don't survive. GLBT rates of suicide are higher than normal. GLBT Christians are particularly susceptible. We need to stop losing these people.

Occasionally I run a scenario through my head where, on a particular Sunday, all the GLBT people in the churches stand up. Just stand up. And everyone realises how common we are. And then people have to deal with us instead of trying to sweep it all under the carpet. And then people realise that when they say something negative about GLBT people, they're not saying it about some abstract person, they're saying it about the person in the next pew, the music leader, the girl who runs youth group, the guy who volunteers for all the maintenance of the church grounds and the parish treasurer.

I know we're not rare because I keep meeting people from my past. From a large youth group of around 50 people in my teenage years, I've become re-acquainted with 2 girls who are now fully out as lesbians. That's just the people I know about.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
From a large youth group of around 50 people in my teenage years, I've become re-acquainted with 2 girls who are now fully out as lesbians. That's just the people I know about.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

LOL.

For clarification, the 2 girls aren't with each other. In fact, in geographical terms they moved in opposite directions, one north and one south.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Occasionally I run a scenario through my head where, on a particular Sunday, all the GLBT people in the churches stand up. Just stand up. And everyone realises how common we are...

I've often pictured a scenario of the Episcopal House of Bishops (U.S.A.) or, better yet, the Lambeth Conference, re-enacting the graduation scene from "In & Out," where every person in the (mostly, or all, straight) audience stands up one by one and proclaims that he/she is gay.

Posted by teddybear (# 7842) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

Not to belittle your experience but this reminds me of a story, perhaps apocryphal, about an Orthodox woman who comes out as a Lesbian to her church. Later one of the yiayias draws her aside and says conspiratorially, "But sweetheart, couldn't you have found a good Greek girl to settle down with?" [/QUOTE]

This reminds me of a story about a sweet Ukrainian baba who was a very dear friend of mine. Her son and daughter-in-law brought her to my place for dinner and we were joined by a very effeminate neighbor/friend of mine. Her son told me later that on the way home she asked if the neighbor was my "girlfriend"? Then went on to add right away, if so that was ok, cause we were good Catholic boys. It was also after that that she stopped trying to fix me up with Ukrainian women twice my age.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Occasionally I run a scenario through my head where, on a particular Sunday, all the GLBT people in the churches stand up. Just stand up. And everyone realises how common we are...

Several decades back at the beginning of the gay rights movement in San Francisco there was an initiative to get homosexuals to write "GAY DOLLAR" on any paper money used for cash purchases. I understand that the amount of currency that eventually bore this label did a lot to change the opinions (or at least the behavior) of a lot of local merchants.

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've often pictured a scenario of the Episcopal House of Bishops (U.S.A.) or, better yet, the Lambeth Conference, re-enacting the graduation scene from "In & Out," where every person in the (mostly, or all, straight) audience stands up one by one and proclaims that he/she is gay.

I AM SPARTACUS!

No wait, that one didn't end quite as happily.

Posted by joan knox (# 16100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Occasionally I run a scenario through my head where, on a particular Sunday, all the GLBT people in the churches stand up. Just stand up. And everyone realises how common we are.

I've run a similar scenario in my head, except my variation is that on one particular Sunday, at one particular moment, all the LGBT peeps will stand up, and as they do, turn a glorious shade of pink...

Posted by iGeek (# 777) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Hopefully when I'm a wise old man I'll just go 'Eh'.

Or a tired old man who simply can't be bothered to work up the gumption to be offended by brainless idiots, anymore.

As I keep telling my husband with respect to his annoyances with his ex-wife:

"The best revenge is to live well."

Posted by amber. (# 11142) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
From a large youth group of around 50 people in my teenage years, I've become re-acquainted with 2 girls who are now fully out as lesbians. That's just the people I know about.
Not to belittle your experience but this reminds me of a story, perhaps apocryphal, about an Orthodox woman who comes out as a Lesbian to her church. Later one of the yiayias draws her aside and says conspiratorially, "But sweetheart, couldn't you have found a good Greek girl to settle down with?"

Wonderful!

Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by joan knox:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Occasionally I run a scenario through my head where, on a particular Sunday, all the GLBT people in the churches stand up. Just stand up. And everyone realises how common we are.
I've run a similar scenario in my head, except my variation is that on one particular Sunday, at one particular moment, all the LGBT peeps will stand up, and as they do, turn a glorious shade of pink...

Four years ago, at the Anglican Church I attend, I was elected to vestry (parish council). I proposed a motion to vestry which was "to study" being an "affirming parish" and "when allowed by the House of Bishops to be able to perform same-sex blessings".

The vestry was prepared to pass the first part, "to study". So we studied. The next year, we revisited the motion. The vestry then discussed again and we had further discussions.

At the church annual general meeting, vestry then put a motion to the parish that that "we recognized diversity within the parish, and that Christ's love is for all" and that "we affirm our intention to welcome our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters in Christ", with the specific direction to vestry to write to the bishop of of wish to perform same sex blessings, to support the ordination of people called to ministry without regard to sexuality. We did all of this, and we had a specific series of eucharists where we honoured and focussed on diversity.

We have since written the national church of our stand. We have sponsored a motion that has passed by a narrow vote, albeit watered down at the last diocesan synod.

So, getting to my point, in some places, this is well along the way.

The outcome for the parish? One family left. The other outcomes? We have a balanced budget and have become a destination church in the area. And we talk a lot less about sex, and a lot more about how about what church should be about: knowing Christ and making his message known.

And in the interests of full disclosure, if my children had not pushed me into it, I would not have done it. Additionally, I had no concept or knowledge of anything gay or lesbian until I was 25. Just never occurred to me.

[ 19. March 2011, 18:51: Message edited by: no_prophet ]

Posted by iGeek (# 777) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
And in the interests of full disclosure, if my children had not pushed me into it, I would not have done it.

Curious -- what was the motivation of your children to push the issue, if you don't mind sharing?

Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :

We were talking about human rights. They were in university at the time. They said it was hypocritical for Christianity to promote love as its main guiding principle if it refused to recognize love whereever and however it exists. A little talk of whom Christ might be hanging with if he showed up today etc. An evening worth of talk. I also reported that my family was behind me on the decision when it went to the first meetings, which was important, because I don't like in person confrontation very much, though I seem to like it more in writing. I'm pretty much to the point on this that I wonder if it might be God's hand in the me getting elected and then pursuing this through.

Additional backgrounder: We had come to know several couples, two mainly, which provided additional motivation. Both couples are among the finest people I know. One gay, one lesbian (and I hesitate to even type it that way. I just don't think that way anymore: they are couples, if you get my meaning). How can I be friends with people I won't stand up for? And they are coming to this church now.

Posted by iGeek (# 777) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
They said it was hypocritical for Christianity to promote love as its main guiding principle if it refused to recognize love whereever and however it exists.

So true. So obvious (to me). Glad they raised the point.

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
Additional backgrounder: We had come to know several couples, two mainly, which provided additional motivation. Both couples are among the finest people I know. One gay, one lesbian (and I hesitate to even type it that way. I just don't think that way anymore: they are couples, if you get my meaning).

Absolutely. You've moved beyond the abstractions and labels and come to know them as people. That matters a lot.

Thanks for sharing that.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
Additional backgrounder: We had come to know several couples, two mainly, which provided additional motivation. Both couples are among the finest people I know. One gay, one lesbian (and I hesitate to even type it that way. I just don't think that way anymore: they are couples, if you get my meaning). How can I be friends with people I won't stand up for? And they are coming to this church now.

That's exactly right, and the answer to much of what appeared on the coming out and gay marriage threads. Our sermon yesterday was on the same point: it was along the lines that we cannot reject Muslims, nor reject Muslim women who wish to wear the burqa; we cannot exclude women from the priesthood; and we cannot exclude GLBT from marriage or the general community.

In each case, these are people of the community without our having to "accept" them. They already belong. A variety of the phenomenonogical vs nominalism schools if you like.

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