Ship of Fools: married lesbian Norwegian heroines (not) in the news

Thread: married lesbian Norwegian heroines (not) in the news Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=028602

Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :

Why is it that this story has gotten so little press? Is it because a couple of married lesbians are so controversial that their story is unmentionable? Or is there something else that explains it?

When I first heard about the story, the only English-language sites I could find it on were LGBT blogs and the like. The only sites I could find that treated it as a regular news story were in languages I couldn't read. Like Finnish.

I think it's very odd that Hege and Toril's story hasn't gotten more press. I'd like to think it's not bigotry. But I haven't seen any other explanation.

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :

I suspect it's simpler--the American news only gives scant coverage to the rest of the world. In point of comparison, I'd be curious to know how much coverage this received in other countries.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

Yours is often the best explanation, but I'm not sure that explains it, Martin L.

Read, in the New York Times, about this queer Muslim boy, Ismail Haji Ahmed, who was slaughtered.

I can't explain why he gets press and the Lesbians don't.

[ 02. August 2011, 03:47: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

And everything about this Norwegian tragedy has been analyzed 3 ways from Tuesday, except the brave rescuers, who for some reason aren't worth mentioning.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I did read in the British press that some of the teenagers were picked up by boat from the surrounding water. Does it really matter whether the rescuers were lesbian or heterosexual? Of course not, so why mention it?

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I did read in the British press that some of the teenagers were picked up by boat from the surrounding water. Does it really matter whether the rescuers were lesbian or heterosexual? Of course not, so why mention it?

This couple saved 40 teenagers, I'd say that's worth mentioning who did it by name. If it were a heterosexual couple we'd mention that they were a couple - so why haven't we heard about this couple? Here in the U.S. I'm pretty certain it's because of the prejudice against gays and lesbians that exists along with ignoring just about everything except the horrendous details.

Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :

The BBC mentioned the rescue, saying that many people from the campsite used their boats in the rescue.

It seems likely that Hege and Toril were part of that rescue group - but the OP story rather implies that they did it on their own ...

I tend to agree with Chorister - the good people risked their lives to rescue teenagers from the water; their sexual inclinations are totally irrelevant!

Typo!

[ 02. August 2011, 11:17: Message edited by: TonyK ]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Maybe because the English-language media are getting the stories from the Norwegian press and its not such a big deal there?

Or perhaps the rescuers themselves didn't think it was relevant to talk about their sex life when being interviewed about what they did. I know the British newspapers think that the three most important facts about any woman are her age, who she last fucked, and the colour of her hair (usually but not always in that order). Perhaps the Norwegians are less obsessed with that. Norway must be about the least sexist most woman-friendly country in the world. Certainly they are a lot better than we are. Though they still probably have a way to go.

The BBC and the British press did talk about the rescuers, though the articles I read did not name them, just said that some "local people" rescued many fom the water.

On the other hand the crass comments to the page linked to by the OP got my blood boiling so much I gave up reading them. One bastard has used it as an excuse to go on about the same Melanie Phillips Daily Mail ultra-conservative raicist "Arabistan" lies that the murderer used as his justifcation, bitching about it being an anti-semitic brainwashing camp. Maybe some people really do need a kicking. [Mad]

[ 02. August 2011, 11:30: Message edited by: ken ]

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

Numerous people took part in the rescue by boat of the survivors and they all deserve praise equally. I find the OP wrong in picking out one couple and deeming them more worthy of praise in international news just because they are lesbians. Their names are all over the internet, their story written in the biggest daily paper in Finland, hundreds of different blogs spreading their names far and wide so by a simple internet search they come up as the most famous rescuers of the day. But that's seemingly not good enough for the OP and the LGBT community. Torill Hansen was named among others in the New York Daily Times on the 29th July, though because she wasn't commended as being lesbian as well, that's probably not good enough either. What about the other rescuers, Otto Loewick, also barely mentioned in the worldwide press, and a man known only as Helge, all but unknown. There were other boats as well, up to 5-7 I gather, and heroic rescuers who haven't been named or recognised at all, not on mainstream newspapers, or on blogs worldwide. Twitter and blogs don't spread their names to millions, though the lesbian couple are, their story being picked up in the Telegraph today as well. But the LGBT community still cry prejudice and homophobia even so.

Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :

Gay men and lesbians are regularly vilified in the press by the right wing and by various religions. State constitutions have been amended to ensure we never have equal rights in certain areas (although we pay taxes at the same rates as everybody else). If this were anybody else in the same situation, of course we'd see an article about it.

It's actually quite refreshing to see a little equal time on the other side - and more proof that the right is wrong. Which is, no doubt, why some people don't like this article.

Well, too bad.....

[ 02. August 2011, 13:50: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :

(P.S.: There's no such thing as "The New York Daily Times.")

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
If this were anybody else in the same situation, of course we'd see an article about it.

Well, no... see above for the other people in the same situation who have been mentioned less and other unknown heroes not at all.

quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
It's actually quite refreshing to see a little equal time on the other side

Agreed. But this is exactly the opposite POV of the OP, which was moaning that the couple's not getting equal time etc etc.

quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
and more proof that the right is wrong. Which is, no doubt, why some people don't like this article.

Well, too bad.....

Not sure how this constitutes 'proof' of anything though. Except that gay people can save people's lives just as much as hetros. I'm not sure that's the specific criticism of the 'right' against them though.

quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
(P.S.: There's no such thing as "The New York Daily Times.")

I meant New York Times. Sorry for the typo.

Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
Numerous people took part in the rescue by boat of the survivors and they all deserve praise equally. I find the OP wrong in picking out one couple and deeming them more worthy of praise in international news just because they are lesbians.

Where do you get that? I think anyone and everyone who, working under fire, pulled kids out of the water and moved them to safety deserves praise and honor for their heroism. I don't think the two women in the story I linked to deserve more than anyone else. But as far as I was able to determine, they were the only ones who had done that, and they weren't getting any recognition at all in the US, except for in the GLBT blogs.

Which seemed both extremely odd to me. I would have thought any sort of good news associated with such an awful story would have been made much of in the mainstream press. So I was looking for reasons for this oversight.

If I had been certain that the oversight was a result of bigotry, I'd have opened this thread in Hell, not here. But I wasn't certain of that, so I opened it here, not to rant, but to discuss.

If there were other stories about heroic rescues of the kids on the island, I would love to see them -- seriously, I would. If they were there, and I missed them, would you be so kind as to post a link or two?

Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :

Hawk, it looks like we cross-posted. Thank you for the link.

Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:

quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
If this were anybody else in the same situation, of course we'd see an article about it.
Well, no... see above for the other people in the same situation who have been mentioned less and other unknown heroes not at all.

Well, no. None of the others are consistently and openly vilified by the right and by religion, and none of the others have had their state legislature write laws expressly denying them rights.

That's the "situation" I'm referring to. I suppose the reason you didn't understand this point is that it's hard to imagine this happening to you; well, you're right. It wouldn't and doesn't happen to anybody else.

Which is the reason this article appeared.

Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :

(Anyway, it's normal for people in general to write about their heroes. And this appeared in a blog written by gay people - so what's the big deal?

They are wondering why these women weren't mentioned as heroes. Martin L. has most of it, actually - it's because the U.S. press has almost no idea what's happening outside the borders. I didn't know there had been a rescue, either.

And BTW, ken - from the BBC site: "Among the first to go out were Bjorn Juvet and his wife Aasa." Is that an explicitly sexual reference, too, then?

[Biased]

)

Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
If there were other stories about heroic rescues of the kids on the island, I would love to see them -- seriously, I would. If they were there, and I missed them, would you be so kind as to post a link or two?

Josephine - see my post above

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:

quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
If this were anybody else in the same situation, of course we'd see an article about it.
Well, no... see above for the other people in the same situation who have been mentioned less and other unknown heroes not at all.
Well, no. None of the others are consistently and openly vilified by the right and by religion, and none of the others have had their state legislature write laws expressly denying them rights.

That's the "situation" I'm referring to. I suppose the reason you didn't understand this point is that it's hard to imagine this happening to you; well, you're right. It wouldn't and doesn't happen to anybody else.

Which is the reason this article appeared.

But in Norway, where the coverage originates, they are not being constatnly vilified by the right and by the church. So why would Norwegian media highlight something of no relevence there?

And if not mentioned there, who's going to know and pick it up?

Unless you think that media all over the world ought always to be thinking of how the story would play in the US rather than of the situation where the stories originate.

I don't actually think that's what you mean, but it's sure what it looks like to me.

John

Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :

quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
But in Norway, where the coverage originates, they are not being constatnly vilified by the right and by the church. So why would Norwegian media highlight something of no relevence there?

And if not mentioned there, who's going to know and pick it up?

Unless you think that media all over the world ought always to be thinking of how the story would play in the US rather than of the situation where the stories originate.

I don't actually think that's what you mean, but it's sure what it looks like to me.

John

The problem you're having - that you don't actually think that's what I mean (even though, strangely, it also looks that way to you) - is because there are two separate issues:

The incident itself and the way the media cover it
Hawk's problem stated above with the "LGBT community crying prejudice and homophobia."

I was responding to the second issue, while you think, I guess, I was referring to the first one. IOW, I was attempting to explain the mindset of the people who wrote the blog post.

What's really interesting is that Hawk above is making a claim that's directly the opposite of the one that you're making: that this incident was in fact well-covered by the media all over the world:

quote:
"Their names are all over the internet, their story written in the biggest daily paper in Finland, hundreds of different blogs spreading their names far and wide so by a simple internet search they come up as the most famous rescuers of the day."

So now I'm curious: which is it? No big deal in Norway, so no coverage? Or, big deal everywhere, so lots of coverage?

(Actually, I think probably it's both - no initial coverage, then more and more - and that the biggest issue here is the problem of the 24-hour news cycle....)

[ 02. August 2011, 23:31: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :

(Actually, now that I re-read Hawk's post, he's only claiming that Finland's biggest newspaper talked about it. The other mentions are in "blogs" - probably mostly "LGBT" ones, a fact that Josephine has already noted.

So, no contradiction there after all.

The point is that American media absolutely adore rescue stories; they eat that stuff up. And the bloggers are wondering why no coverage of this, that's all. I do think it's because the American media only really like American rescue stories, and don't pay any attention to those happening elsewhere. That's really more like it, honestly.

But, given the problematic big-dealness of "gay marriage" here, I do wonder what they'd do with this story if it had involved Americans. Probably they'd cover "Bjorn Juvet and his wife Aasa" and ignore the lesbos anyway.

It would be interesting to imagine their conundrum, anyway....)

Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:

quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
If there were other stories about heroic rescues of the kids on the island, I would love to see them -- seriously, I would. If they were there, and I missed them, would you be so kind as to post a link or two?
Josephine - see my post above

Thank you, Tony!

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
The point is that American media absolutely adore rescue stories; they eat that stuff up. And the bloggers are wondering why no coverage of this, that's all. I do think it's because the American media only really like American rescue stories, and don't pay any attention to those happening elsewhere. That's really more like it, honestly.

I agree. They'd be discrimination in evidence here if American newspapers were all over Bjorn Juvet and his wife and ignored Hega and Torill. Since they are all being ignored equally there is no discrimination. Your suggestion of Americans preferring American heroes is accurate I think.

Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:

quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
The point is that American media absolutely adore rescue stories; they eat that stuff up. And the bloggers are wondering why no coverage of this, that's all. I do think it's because the American media only really like American rescue stories, and don't pay any attention to those happening elsewhere. That's really more like it, honestly.
I agree. They'd be discrimination in evidence here if American newspapers were all over Bjorn Juvet and his wife and ignored Hega and Torill. Since they are all being ignored equally there is no discrimination. Your suggestion of Americans preferring American heroes is accurate I think.

Yes. The truth is that the American bloggers are actually too young and naive yet to realize what incredible homers the American media generally turn out to be.

It's rather sweet, actually; they haven't become jaded on this point yet. But they'll find out soon enough....

[ 03. August 2011, 12:53: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
I suspect it's simpler--the American news only gives scant coverage to the rest of the world. In point of comparison, I'd be curious to know how much coverage this received in other countries.

I didn't hear about it till I read this thread. Most of the speculation has been about why the 'Christian-who-was-clearly-not-a-Christian' is allowed to call himself a christian. I wish there was as much speculation about other self proclaimed religious nuts.

And our wet PM making meaningless statements about what lessons should be learned - meaning he'll see if any unpopular decisions can be pushed through on the back of it.

As for mentioning the sexuality of rescuers - I would be offended on behalf of the LGBT community if someone had pointed out that 'some of them were gay!'
'Hege Dalen and her wife, Toril' could have been mentioned, and, since 136 people were rescued, if each boat managed an average of 40 people then there were only 4 or 5 teams and they could all have been mentioned by name. I think the reality is that some boats only managed to rescue a few, a lot of people were involved and the principle rescuers could have done with a bit more celebrating.

Horrible, the way he dressed as a police officer - playing terminator. I didn't like the slant of the BBC article blaming the police with all that damning language. (I won't repeat it here, gone on long enough)

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

You might be interested in this article about the Norwegian couple in the Daily Telegraph which suggests a number of reasons why the story wasn't picked up.

Posted by JohnWesleysHorse (# 14975) on :

I read about it in aftenposten (norsk daily newspaper) as mrs JWH is norsk and I follow the news there.

Maybe its an english language news problem?

Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on :

I read about it in the UK press at the time. Not a lengthy story, but it did contain that facts - that they were a married Norwegian couple who rescued a significant number of teenagers at great risk to themselves. The women's names were given and they were then referred to as Ms Dalen and Ms Hansen, so it was very clear that they were a married female couple, although the newspaper left the readers to work that out for themselves.

The newspaper was 'i'.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0