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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: CofE pick straight blokes to advise on sexuality
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
I admit that the list doesn't sound promising. On the other hand, I was at college with Keith Sinclair, many years ago, and remember him as a good chap then. Don't remember gay issues coming up then, and no idea what he has done since, so can't be sure what he is like now.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
I may eventually come up with a more nuanced response, but this will do for now.....
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
For me the most telling thing about this is that the CofE doesn't feel the need to hear from women about human sexuality.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
I had no idea that such a panel was in the offing, and haven't seen anything inviting submissions etc. Anyone would think the report had been written before the panel was appointed.....
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I am very, very pessimistic about this report.
One of the advisors is Professor Glynn Harrison - he is one of the few psychaitrists left who believes homosexuality to be a mental illness. He is a lay reader colleague at the parish next to mine - one of those evangelical power-houses that attract a congregation of 700, many of whom are aged under 30. He takes the view that we know more about bisexuality now - that leads him to argue that all people have a choice and, because 'the Bible says....' we should all be heterosexual 27/7.
He, and many others, argue that the previous report got it wrong when saying that lay people could, in conscience, enter into 'homophile' relationships if unable to change sexuality but that that clergy can't because they have to be role-models.
I think Colin Coward is hoping that this double standard will be removed - I believe he is right but not in the way he wants. Instead of allowing clergy to enter into gay relationships, I suspect the report will say that neither clergy NOR laity can.
If that happens, then it's about time that we had a Pink Sunday when all LGBTs and those of us in support should boycott church.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Aelred of Rievaulx
Shipmate
# 16860
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Posted
Keith Sinclair, who I know well, spent many years as vicar of Aston in Brimingham, then was vicar of Holy Trinity, Coventry, a major parish, before being Bishop of Birkenhead.
He is conservative on sexuality - a trustee of the True Freedom Trust, which thinks that homosexuality is an orientation, but that the correct response for Christians is to resist a temptation to have any same sex expression, which they regard as sinful.
So he is a man with his mind made up. Not unsympathetic. But I think that for him, as for a number of other bishops, the thought of thinking differently about this is just too frightening to contemplate.
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In friendship are joined honor and charm, truth and joy, sweetness and good-will, affection and action. And all these take their beginning from Christ, advance through Christ, and are perfected in Christ.
Posts: 136 | From: English Midlands | Registered: Jan 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Being straight isn't a problem in and of itself. The people who most helped me come to terms with my homosexuality were straight.
It's the existing attitude that determines whether there's a problem.
Of course, the irony is that anyone who actually said they were LGBT would be immediately perceived as 'biased'. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
For me, the big mystery is indeed the absence of female voices (straight, bi, lesbian or trans etc). With the number of women serving in Priesthood in the CofE and the number of very capable existing female Advisers to the church, it seems very odd indeed that not one of them could be found to join this panel (or perhaps none were invited?). With the best will in the world, straight men are not going to have an full insight into someone like me.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Course, getting female bishops for the panel might have been a problem ...
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Donne, Donne, Donne.
Apprentice
# 16761
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Posted
Surely Leo, Huntleys were homosexuals and Palmers were prostitutes?
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'If I might say so, there is something almost blasphemous in this horror of the elements. Are we seriously to suppose that all these clouds, all this immense electrical display, is simply called into existence to extinguish you or me?'
Posts: 22 | From: The Southern Coast. | Registered: Nov 2011
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Course, getting female bishops for the panel might have been a problem ...
We could loan you a few. In fact one of our L.A. suffragans could cover two bases: Mary Douglas Glasspool is a lesbian. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber.:
For me, the big mystery is indeed the absence of female voices (straight, bi, lesbian or trans etc). With the number of women serving in Priesthood in the CofE and the number of very capable existing female Advisers to the church, it seems very odd indeed that not one of them could be found to join this panel (or perhaps none were invited?). With the best will in the world, straight men are not going to have an full insight into someone like me.
Presumably the C of E still holds to Victorian values and doesn't acknowledge the existence of lesbians. Or any women for that matter, unless like children they are seen and not heard.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I don't know much about any of this panel but it does look like the kind of selection which might have been criticised for being old-fashioned and unrepresentative in Geoffrey Fisher's day.
And anyway FFS what is this panel supposed to achieve? Are they hoping that if they keep setting up advisory panels and commissioning reports, sooner or later those pesky gays will get fed up and quietly disappear? What prospect is there that this will give any new insight that hasn't occurred to anyone in the last fifty years?
Ultimately, for all the messing about and fudging the issue, many (indeed I hope most) of us know that there are lots and lots of people out there- clergy and laity- who are gay and not celibate and are also good faithful Christians. By their fruits (no cheap joke intended) ye shall know them. End of.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I don't know much about any of this panel but it does look like the kind of selection which might have been criticised for being old-fashioned and unrepresentative in Geoffrey Fisher's day.
It might have been criticised for being old-fashioned and unrepresentative in John Fisher's day!
[ 08. January 2012, 22:31: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And anyway FFS what is this panel supposed to achieve? Are they hoping that if they keep setting up advisory panels and commissioning reports, sooner or later those pesky gays will get fed up and quietly disappear? What prospect is there that this will give any new insight that hasn't occurred to anyone in the last fifty years?
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Dammit, Johnson, what are all these ruddy queers doing dirtying up the place? In my day they'd have all been shot!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
In fact they'd have done the decent thing and shot themselves ! Those were the days, eh- you could leave a chap in a room with a Webley and a bottle of whisky and he'd know what was expected of him. Nowadays he'd just drink the whisky and get up to God knows what with the bottle- at least according to this website to which I keep finding myself being, um, unaccountably redirected...
[ 09. January 2012, 10:08: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
many (indeed I hope most) of us know that there are lots and lots of people out there- clergy and laity- who are gay and not celibate and are also good faithful Christians.
But, with official sanction, they are being persecuted, not by the enemies of Christianity but by those who reckon themselves to be pastors of the flock.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Persecuted or 'tolerated' in a nauseatingly kid-gloves, aren't-we-broad-minded, don't-say-too-much sort of way.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber.:
Official Announcement
and
The initial response from Changing Attitudes
So, five men picked to advise the CofE on sexuality. Four of them Bishops, none of them known to be LGBTQ.
Shall we discuss?
What's there to discuss? The board is made up entirely of men and there are at least some known homophobes on the board (including one finding excuses to say "not yet"). As such it appears to me to be textbook bureaucratic cowardice - setting up a committee who you know won't say anything at the end of the day and until it says nothing you can say you have a committee looking into things.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
Justinian, I think that seems to be a fair assessment, from how it appears. I could of course be proven wrong.
We have 15 female Archdeacons, if memory serves. One could imagine that any of them would have been every bit as capable of a considered opinion on sexuality as the male Bishops, for example.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Persecuted or 'tolerated' in a nauseatingly kid-gloves, aren't-we-broad-minded, don't-say-too-much sort of way.
No, not tolerated, persecuted - some gays refused communion, some vicars living in fear of losing their jobs if discovered democratically elected churchwardens vetoed by their vicar, etc. etc.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Not denying the persecution- just saying that (as a straight man) some of the 'toleration' seems pretty unhealthy to me too.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Aelred of Rievaulx
Shipmate
# 16860
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Posted
Anything kind of "toleration" that means that people can't really be themselves, but have to be a kind of watered down version of themselves lest horses etc are frightened is just oppression by another name.
This "review" group will get us nowhere at all - perhaps that is why they have been chosen. Lord, have mercy.
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In friendship are joined honor and charm, truth and joy, sweetness and good-will, affection and action. And all these take their beginning from Christ, advance through Christ, and are perfected in Christ.
Posts: 136 | From: English Midlands | Registered: Jan 2012
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
As Spike Milligan would have described the apparent thinking, 'Nothing can go wrong, because we haven't got a plan'
Toleration: The art of pretending people Aren't There, and politely ignoring them in every possible way. "A new command I give to you - tolerate one another, as I have tolerated you". Doesn't have quite the same emphasis of God's intention about it, no.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber.:
Toleration: The art of pretending people Aren't There, and politely ignoring them in every possible way.
And thank God for it! That's the glue that holds civilisation together!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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crynwrcymraeg
Shipmate
# 13018
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
Anything kind of "toleration" that means that people can't really be themselves, but have to be a kind of watered down version of themselves lest horses etc are frightened is just oppression by another name.
This "review" group will get us nowhere at all - perhaps that is why they have been chosen. Lord, have mercy.
The review need a few queers, dykes drag queans to get them on track and get them to unwind and enjoy the whole darn thing together ! (Mind u to be fair all will have had loads of experience in dressing up !)
Otherwise their report will have to go in the bathroom beside the loo as a bit of unintentionally hilarious bog-side reading
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This sig is not mine -
but it's growing on me !
[ 10. January 2012, 17:50: Message edited by: crynwrcymraeg ]
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I ignored the admins and now I'm Erin's bitch.
Posts: 522 | From: Ty'n Coed | Registered: Sep 2007
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Aelred of Rievaulx
Shipmate
# 16860
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Posted
quote:
The review need a few queers, dykes drag queans to get them on track and get them to unwind and enjoy the whole darn thing together ! (Mind u to be fair all will have had loads of experience in dressing up !)
They may have experience in dressing up - but they don't look GORGEOUS like we do, darling! Beards, unkempt eyebrows, tragic trousers and shirts, and the shoes, the shoes! The gay ones don't appear to be any better - I guess because if they dressed like gay men people might spot that they were?
It all went west once they stopped wearing gaiters and aprons.
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In friendship are joined honor and charm, truth and joy, sweetness and good-will, affection and action. And all these take their beginning from Christ, advance through Christ, and are perfected in Christ.
Posts: 136 | From: English Midlands | Registered: Jan 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Dead right. A few years ago I organised a visit by all the Archdeacons of the Church in Wales to the National Assembly. You can imagine what a sight 17 (I think it was) Archdeacons would have presented say 60 years ago. But now- dull, dull, dull. Mostly rather forgettable suits*. Very disappointing.
*One- now a Bishop- was in a dinner jacket with stock and collar (it was a daytime visit). I still can't work out whether this was a fairly unworldly thing, with the DJ just being seen as a black suit, or whether he might have been going on somewhere afterwards and wouldn't have the opportunity to change.
[ 11. January 2012, 10:41: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Donne, Donne, Donne.
Apprentice
# 16761
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Posted
Now now Aelred, surely there are bearded homosexuals? It is just a pity that so few tend to be Anglican clerics.
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'If I might say so, there is something almost blasphemous in this horror of the elements. Are we seriously to suppose that all these clouds, all this immense electrical display, is simply called into existence to extinguish you or me?'
Posts: 22 | From: The Southern Coast. | Registered: Nov 2011
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crynwrcymraeg
Shipmate
# 13018
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
quote:
The review need a few queers, dykes drag queans to get them on track and get them to unwind and enjoy the whole darn thing together ! (Mind u to be fair all will have had loads of experience in dressing up !)
They may have experience in dressing up - but they don't look GORGEOUS like we do, darling! Beards, unkempt eyebrows, tragic trousers and shirts, and the shoes, the shoes! The gay ones don't appear to be any better - I guess because if they dressed like gay men people might spot that they were?
It all went west once they stopped wearing gaiters and aprons.
We do ! Don't we luv !!!!! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Sig not mine etc...
[ 11. January 2012, 19:10: Message edited by: crynwrcymraeg ]
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I ignored the admins and now I'm Erin's bitch.
Posts: 522 | From: Ty'n Coed | Registered: Sep 2007
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crynwrcymraeg
Shipmate
# 13018
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by crynwrcymraeg:
quote:
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
quote:
The review need a few queers, dykes drag queans to get them on track and get them to unwind and enjoy the whole darn thing together ! (Mind u to be fair all will have had loads of experience in dressing up !)
They may have experience in dressing up - but they don't look GORGEOUS like we do, darling! Beards, unkempt eyebrows, tragic trousers and shirts, and the shoes, the shoes! The gay ones don't appear to be any better - I guess because if they dressed like gay men people might spot that they were?
It all went west once they stopped wearing gaiters and aprons.
We do ! Don't we luv !!!!!
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Sig not mine etc...
Aelred darlink - I'd luv your take on TGoV - The Glory of Virginity thread !!!!
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I ignored the admins and now I'm Erin's bitch.
Posts: 522 | From: Ty'n Coed | Registered: Sep 2007
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Aelred of Rievaulx
Shipmate
# 16860
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Posted
cyn (can I call you that? I can't spell the rest of it - and that with my Welsh blood too - I blush for shame) -
I can't be arsed with the Glory of Virginity thread. I think it is all a lot of nonsense. I reckon Mary was an ordinary young girl, with an extraordinary heart. What happened around the birth of Jesus goodness knows, but after that she settled down with Joseph and had a normal marriage and lots of kids by all accounts. I have a sincere devotion to Our Lady, but not as a perpetual virgin!
People who don't find themselves to be very sexual and those who want to give that side of themselves up for some reason are welcome to do so. But I think it is far more time that we had something on the Glory of Sexual Expression. Hinduism is much better on this kind of thing than we Christians are...
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In friendship are joined honor and charm, truth and joy, sweetness and good-will, affection and action. And all these take their beginning from Christ, advance through Christ, and are perfected in Christ.
Posts: 136 | From: English Midlands | Registered: Jan 2012
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Aelred of Rievaulx
Shipmate
# 16860
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Posted
Oh - I meant to say - why not use one of the female deans? There are at least four of them; Salisbury, Bury St Edmunds, Leicester and Birmingham. More senior than archdeacons.
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In friendship are joined honor and charm, truth and joy, sweetness and good-will, affection and action. And all these take their beginning from Christ, advance through Christ, and are perfected in Christ.
Posts: 136 | From: English Midlands | Registered: Jan 2012
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Aelred of Rievaulx
Shipmate
# 16860
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Posted
crynwrcymraeg - I apologise for being so lazy - I will learn how to spell your name
Aelred the Indolent
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In friendship are joined honor and charm, truth and joy, sweetness and good-will, affection and action. And all these take their beginning from Christ, advance through Christ, and are perfected in Christ.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
crynwrcymraeg - I apologise for being so lazy - I will learn how to spell your name
Aelred the Indolent
Cut and paste is your friend with long, difficult names
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
Oh - I meant to say - why not use one of the female deans? There are at least four of them; Salisbury, Bury St Edmunds, Leicester and Birmingham. More senior than archdeacons.
And more experienced that a new bishop, i.e. Ebbsfleet - though he is probably more aware of gay men (of a certain type) because of his anglo-catholic background.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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crynwrcymraeg
Shipmate
# 13018
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
crynwrcymraeg - I apologise for being so lazy - I will learn how to spell your name
Aelred the Indolent
Cut and paste is your friend with long, difficult names
I had no idea crynwrcymraeg was long and difficult ! It would have been crynwr cymraeg but the space wasn t allowed !
But yes, cutting and pasting has to be a way forward !
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sig not mine own
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I ignored the admins and now I'm Erin's bitch.
Posts: 522 | From: Ty'n Coed | Registered: Sep 2007
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crynwrcymraeg
Shipmate
# 13018
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
cyn (can I call you that? I can't spell the rest of it - and that with my Welsh blood too - I blush for shame) -
I can't be arsed with the Glory of Virginity thread. I think it is all a lot of nonsense. I reckon Mary was an ordinary young girl, with an extraordinary heart. What happened around the birth of Jesus goodness knows, but after that she settled down with Joseph and had a normal marriage and lots of kids by all accounts. I have a sincere devotion to Our Lady, but not as a perpetual virgin!
People who don't find themselves to be very sexual and those who want to give that side of themselves up for some reason are welcome to do so. But I think it is far more time that we had something on the Glory of Sexual Expression. Hinduism is much better on this kind of thing than we Christians are...
Hear, hear ! I did find my time as a virgin made the sex great post eventu though !
So perhaps we need a new thread - maybe ?
HOW TO BECOME a VIRGIN
- (with no apolgoies to Quentin Crisp ! )
Feel free to call me Cyn by all means -
btw any paticualr reason ? !
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sig not mine
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I ignored the admins and now I'm Erin's bitch.
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
Thanks for the link to the Osbourne Report leo. I've read it through and in some ways I find it rather shocking, not for being 'too liberal' but for the insight it gives into how the Church behaves, or behaved at that time.
I found this (page 117) especially shocking:
quote:
When such behaviour involves breaking the law, eg by sexual involvement with a minor (especially one in his pastoral care) and there is no reason to suspect that the case is known to any but the two of them, the person concerned is warned of the great danger that they and their ministry are in, be moved to penitence, and be advised to terminate the relationship gently but swiftly and to go on leave of absence prior to moving parishes. The provision of pastoral care for the minor is discussed. Immediate resignation may be required of such clergy
This is in a section dealing with what was current practice. Try substituting 'minor' with 'child'. It seems the main concern is to protect the Church and move the priest.
The age of consent to sexual activity for homosexual men was 18 at the time the report was published and perhaps the assumption was of a minor of 16 or 17, but it could be taken as applying to younger boys. There's no recognition of the practice of grooming a child for sex.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
Correction; the age of consent for homosexuals was 21 at the time of the report, so a homosexual adult could still be a 'minor'.
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
Cover it up, move on. Gee whizz, no wonder they've only just dared publish it.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That advice was standard practice at the time.
In the late 1980s? Not in schools it wasn't.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
It wasn't advice that the report was giving, it was a summary of what the report group had been told by the bishops. It was how bishops dealt with such situations.
My initial shock was the impact of the word 'minor', which today in a sexual relationship would be someone under 16, or under 18 if it was a position of trust. I think by the late 80's the law banning homosexual activity for men under 21 was regarded as unenforceable and the police rarely took action with the 16-21 age group. Reducing the age limit to 18 was a compromise between those who wanted parity between heterosexuals and homosexuals and those who wanted the the age to stay at 21.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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