Thread: More crappy choruses, wonky worship-songs and horrible hymns Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=028636
Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on
:
I hope the hosts don't mind me opening a new thread on the subject, but we were invited to at the end of the closed one.
The worst ever chorus - and heaven knows, there are plenty of dreadful ones - must be "There is a redeemer" by Melody Green: dreary, mournful tune, ludicrous slurring in "Ho-o-o-o-oly one", and other faults too numerous to mention. Go get on a 'plane, Melody!
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on
:
My pet peeve at the moment is not so much musically crappy choruses as theologically questionable ones that are nonetheless used in church because they're toe-tappin' crowd pleasers for the people used to old-timey gospel music. We do this every Sunday before the service proper.
Granted, Lutherans -- even those of us on the progressive end of the spectrum -- are obsessed with issues of doctrine. But I just can't stand singing songs like "Will There Be Stars in My Crown," "The Great Speckled Bird," etc. The lyrics simply don't jibe with Lutheran theology. And I suspect that many people in the pew absorb more theology from songs than they do from sermons or Bible studies or the new members' class.
My pastor's philosophy seems to be that they're enjoyable anxiety/hostility-reducers that ease country people into a spiritual state of mind for worship. His model is the Lutheran church he visited near the Aleutian Islands in Alaska, where the service proper was proceeded by a by-request community singalong that might last an hour or two before the first sentence of the liturgy.
I'm sure he'd think I was being an elitist prig by fussing over song lyrics...but I'm a believer that our worship reflects our beliefs, and at least I am totally disconnected from some of the ideas expressed in these songs. Surely there are folksy Southern tunes that aren't paens to works-righteousness, fundamentalism, etc.?
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
My pet peeve at the moment is not so much musically crappy choruses as theologically questionable ones that are nonetheless used in church because they're toe-tappin' crowd pleasers
yes, oh yes
It does seem to be 'who cares about the words, the music is good because it's informal'.
And informal is the word of the moment.
I, of course, am hangin' out wiv Jesus.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
'In Christ Alone'
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on
:
Re "In Christ Alone", and particularly the line "and on the cross when Jesus died / the wrath of God was satisfied" which I think is what most people find tricky with this song.
My spiritual director told me she always sings "and on the cross when Jesus died / the love of God was magnified" which I have been singing myself and passing on to others, as indeed I did on the last CC&HH thread.
Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on
:
Your spiritual director is dead right. And s/he might also adapt some other very questionable lines in the process.
But it against the Law. Townsend would not permit it.
Excise the nonsense from any congregational book.
Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on
:
I meant to add that this nonsense is included in the latest edition of my denominational hymn book.
The compilers say the hymns included have been subjected to strict theological scrutiny.
They say, in the next breath, that the hymns represent "what many ********** sing" and have been included as a result.
The two are incompatible.
Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
I hope the hosts don't mind me opening a new thread on the subject, but we were invited to at the end of the closed one.
The worst ever chorus - and heaven knows, there are plenty of dreadful ones - must be "There is a redeemer" by Melody Green: dreary, mournful tune, ludicrous slurring in "Ho-o-o-o-oly one", and other faults too numerous to mention. Go get on a 'plane, Melody!
Hmmmm, at the extreme risk of agreeing with you once again, I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with it theologically, but poetically and artistically it is quite dreadful - the sort of thing a 5-year-old would write!
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
The worst ever chorus - and heaven knows, there are plenty of dreadful ones - must be "There is a redeemer" by Melody Green...
Well, I actually like it to be honest. Which is why this is in dead horses.
But you obviously don't get around much. There are hundreds undeniably worse. For whiny whingy dated MOTR radio-2-lite trivialised moist towellete of a song that should have been buried in the dullest part of the 1980s eclipse of pop music, what can beat "Come on and Celebrate"?
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
...but I'm a believer that our worship reflects our beliefs, and at least I am totally disconnected from some of the ideas expressed in these songs.
There are quite a lot of lines in our hymnbook, and one or two whole songs, that I can't say I believe and therefore don't sing. I just keep my mouth shut.
quote:
Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
Re "In Christ Alone", and particularly the line "and on the cross when Jesus died / the wrath of God was satisfied" which I think is what most people find tricky with this song.
I take special pleasure in singing that line extra-special loud!
There is shedloads of far worse doctrine in every hymnbook. A lot of objections that language seem a bit precious to me. Especially from people happy to sing all sorts of Mariolatrical guff. Just take it as a poetic expression of a bueautiful truth in language that makes you feel a little uncomfortable.
Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
Re "In Christ Alone", and particularly the line "and on the cross when Jesus died / the wrath of God was satisfied" which I think is what most people find tricky with this song.
My spiritual director told me she always sings "and on the cross when Jesus died / the love of God was magnified" which I have been singing myself and passing on to others, as indeed I did on the last CC&HH thread.
Aaaah we're back to the atonement theories again - well there's a very interesting thread in Purgatory all about that
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on
:
"There is a redeemer" was mostly by Keith Green, not Melody. He was in his 20s and a new Christian, and most of his songs are very direct and straightforward in their language.
You can dislike it if you wish (I have no problem with it, but then I haven't been in a church that's sung it in the last 20 years!)
However, I'll assume you don't know that Keith died in a plane crash aged 28, and that your comment was just unfortunate...
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
I haven't been in a church that's sung it in the last 20 years
Unfortunately, our vicar has recently discovered all these songs in some vintage Children's song book he has acquired, and thinks they are all new 8O
He is now proceeding to teach them all to us. Save us and help us, we humbly beseech thee O Lord. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
We sing it often ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on
:
At our place, again during the pre-service sing-along, the children are always pestered into getting up front and leading the congregation in church-camp full-body-participation songs like "Pharaoh, Pharaoh." Some of the adults think this is just the cutest thing, but my impression is that the kids are totally over it, and the ones who do reluctantly straggle up to "lead" the song are simply placating annoying adults. We have maybe three adults who join in the aerobics, and it's just...painful to watch. But the people who like this sort of thing are so convinced that the children love to perform, and that this is being inclusive of children in the life of the church, etc., etc....I don't think anyone has the heart to burst these people's balloon...except maybe the kids themselves, on Sundays when not one child can be roused to sing/dance "Kumbaya" or "The Butterfly Song."
Posted by mrs whibley (# 4798) on
:
I was informed a couple of weeks ago that the only reason some adults don't do the actions to these songs is that we are worried about looking silly. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
<keithgreentangent>
Ah, Keith Green! A very gifted man, with strong personal convictions. I think he wrote some very beautiful songs, particularly musical arrangements of a couple of Psalms. One of which, from "Songs for the Shepherd" always comes to mind when reading or listening to Psalm 23. I find his musical setting haunting, particularly in view of his tragic early death.
Here it is.
Of course, some of you might find it crappy, I suppose.
</keithgreentangent>
Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
"There is a redeemer" was mostly by Keith Green, not Melody. He was in his 20s and a new Christian, and most of his songs are very direct and straightforward in their language.
You can dislike it if you wish (I have no problem with it, but then I haven't been in a church that's sung it in the last 20 years!)
However, I'll assume you don't know that Keith died in a plane crash aged 28, and that your comment was just unfortunate...
Yes, I do know it, and my last line, about Melody getting on a plane, was deliberately tasteless.
Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Yes, I do know it, and my last line, about Melody getting on a plane, was deliberately tasteless.
Having known personally known both Greens, I'm highly tempted to say it should have been you on the plane.
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
For whiny whingy dated MOTR radio-2-lite trivialised moist towellete of a song that should have been buried in the dullest part of the 1980s eclipse of pop music, what can beat "Come on and Celebrate"?
We were subjected to that at school.
"Cardboard and Sellotape, Sellotape, Sellotape and string..."
I will probably find myself anathematised for this, but I really do.not.like akathists. They're an enormous part of Russian Orthodox church culture but I just find them a trial to be endured, and which never seems to end soon enough.
Having thought about it, I think I realise why. I like poetic language in worship. I think it has its place and prevents our hymns and prayers from being theological textbooks. The problem with akathists is that they seem to be composed by someone going through all of the hymns and prayers that exist, taking out the most florid lines, discarding the rest, and stringing the florid bits together.
The result is a brief introduction to each section, ending with something like 'Therefore, we sing to thee such things as these:', and leading into essentially a litany of flowery and often romantic lines very similar to those in some western litanies.
I just can't pray like that, so my mind wanders, and because it goes on, by about half way through, I find myself checking how many more pages are left. Everyone loves the very energetic akathist chant, and it's great for rousing a large congregation into communal song but that's about it, really.
I think I just don't understand.
Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Yes, I do know it, and my last line, about Melody getting on a plane, was deliberately tasteless.
Having known personally known both Greens, I'm highly tempted to say it should have been you on the plane.
Feel free, dear heart!
Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
I will probably find myself anathematised for this, but I really do.not.like akathists. They're an enormous part of Russian Orthodox church culture but I just find them a trial to be endured, and which never seems to end soon enough.
Having thought about it, I think I realise why. I like poetic language in worship. I think it has its place and prevents our hymns and prayers from being theological textbooks. The problem with akathists is that they seem to be composed by someone going through all of the hymns and prayers that exist, taking out the most florid lines, discarding the rest, and stringing the florid bits together.
I wholeheartedly agree. Not being Orthodox, I don't usually have to endure them, but there's a bloke on another forum I post on who's Russian Orthodox, and a convert to it and therefore keen as mustard, who will insist on posting the damn things, apparently thinking they're great, moving poetry.
Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Yes, I do know it, and my last line, about Melody getting on a plane, was deliberately tasteless.
Having known personally known both Greens, I'm highly tempted to say it should have been you on the plane.
Feel free, dear heart!
It's not worth a hell call and I felt a twinge for taking it this far in DH. I'll just ask that you THINK before making mind numbingly stupid, tasteless remarks (wasn't funny) about one who died and a mother who lost her husband and children and suffered immensely because of that accident. I knew both of them and they didn't deserve the crack, whether you like the music or not.
Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on
:
Anyway (ahem!) "There is a Redeemer" isn't that bad - I'll admit, embarrassing as it is, that I occasionally have this hymn/chorus going around in my head, so it must have something! I think it's because my sister had it for her wedding.
One chorus I cannot stand is "Majesty"
You know the one:
quote:
Majesty
Worship His Majesty
Unto Jesus, be Glory honour and Praise...
Again, I'm not criticizing it theologically, I just don't like the way the words are hashed together, nor the mind-numbingly mundane tune.
Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Yes, I do know it, and my last line, about Melody getting on a plane, was deliberately tasteless.
Having known personally known both Greens, I'm highly tempted to say it should have been you on the plane.
Feel free, dear heart!
It's not worth a hell call and I felt a twinge for taking it this far in DH. I'll just ask that you THINK before making mind numbingly stupid, tasteless remarks (wasn't funny) about one who died and a mother who lost her husband and children and suffered immensely because of that accident. I knew both of them and they didn't deserve the crack, whether you like the music or not.
OK. Sorry.
Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on
:
On reflection, I think you deserve more than a one-word apology. You had every right to be offended by my tasteless comment, and I'm sorry I was the cause of your offence. Obviously, I didn't know that a personal friend of the Greens was on this forum when I made my rather adolescent attempt to be outrageous, but that's no excuse, so I'm really sorry.
[ 05. June 2012, 12:29: Message edited by: Steve H ]
Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on
:
Anyway, back to the topic. I once overheard the Rev. Michael Saward, the hymn-writer, saying to someone else in the gents' bogs at St Paul's Church, Robert Adam Street in London, during a one-day conference on hymn and worship-song writing, that the chorus 'Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus' was "pure Manicheeism", and was one of many modern worship-songs which were heretical. The problem, he opined, was that in the past, hymns were usually written by the clergy, who were theologically trained, whereas nowadays (well, thenadays: this was 20-odd years ago, but it's still true) any spotty youth who can play a few basic guitar chords thinks he's been specially commissioned by the Holy Spirit to write "worship-songs". Of course, there are traditional hymns which are heretical as well, but far fewer.
Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
...whereas nowadays, any spotty youth who can play a few basic guitar chords thinks he's been specially commissioned by the Holy Spirit to write "worship-songs".
Yes, and don't I know it!
Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
On reflection, I think you deserve more than a one-word apology. You had every right to be offended by my tasteless comment, and I'm sorry I was the cause of your offence. Obviously, I didn't know that a personal friend of the Greens was on this forum when I made my rather adolescent attempt to be outrageous, but that's no excuse, so I'm really sorry.
Apology accepted. I apologize for suggesting you be the one on the plane, wasn't a mature response, but one made out of emotion.
Posted by Mockingale (# 16599) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
At our place, again during the pre-service sing-along, the children are always pestered into getting up front and leading the congregation in church-camp full-body-participation songs like "Pharaoh, Pharaoh." Some of the adults think this is just the cutest thing, but my impression is that the kids are totally over it, and the ones who do reluctantly straggle up to "lead" the song are simply placating annoying adults. We have maybe three adults who join in the aerobics, and it's just...painful to watch. But the people who like this sort of thing are so convinced that the children love to perform, and that this is being inclusive of children in the life of the church, etc., etc....I don't think anyone has the heart to burst these people's balloon...except maybe the kids themselves, on Sundays when not one child can be roused to sing/dance "Kumbaya" or "The Butterfly Song."
Check around you. Do you smell sulfur? Are there flames?
That sounds like my personal hell.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Anyway, back to the topic. I once overheard the Rev. Michael Saward, the hymn-writer, saying to someone else in the gents' bogs at St Paul's Church, Robert Adam Street in London, during a one-day conference on hymn and worship-song writing, that the chorus 'Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus' was "pure Manicheeism", and was one of many modern worship-songs which were heretical. The problem, he opined, was that in the past, hymns were usually written by the clergy, who were theologically trained, whereas nowadays (well, thenadays: this was 20-odd years ago, but it's still true) any spotty youth who can play a few basic guitar chords thinks he's been specially commissioned by the Holy Spirit to write "worship-songs". Of course, there are traditional hymns which are heretical as well, but far fewer.
Shame - 'Turn your eyes' was my favourite at Sunday School.
Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on
:
My favourites at Sunday School were 'Hushed was the evening hymn..." and "When a knight won his spurs...", both of which were proper, albeit children's, hymns - but I'm probably much older than you.
[ 05. June 2012, 19:40: Message edited by: Steve H ]
Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
My favourites at Sunday School were 'Hushed was the evening hymn..." and "When a knight won his spurs...", both of which were proper, albeit children's, hymns - but I'm probably much older than you.
Just checked your profile, and it transpires that I'm only about six weeks older than you! 'Turn your eyes...' isn't that old, surely? (Retired already? Jammy sod!)
Posted by Louise (# 30) on
:
hosting
Thanks all for the apologies to each other. Given that this was such a bad start to a new thread on the subject, I'm going to close this one. If someone wants a new thread on the subject they can start again.
cheers,
Louise
[edited to add - the OP Steve H was planked for misbehaviour elsewhere on the boards, so it's easier to start anew]
hosting off
[ 05. June 2012, 22:30: Message edited by: Louise ]
© Ship of Fools 2016
UBB.classicTM
6.5.0