Ship of Fools: These schmucks have the moral high ground regarding gays?

Thread: These schmucks have the moral high ground regarding gays? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=028638

Posted by Mockingale (# 16599) on :

Ugandan Bishops push Anti-gay bill

quote:
The Uganda Joint Christian Council, which includes Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox bishops, has called on parliament to move the notorious Anti-Homosexuality Bill forward. According to the Ugandan newspaper The Daily Monitor:

Top religious leaders from across the country have asked Parliament to speed-up the process of enacting the Anti-Homosexuality law to prevent what they called “an attack on the Bible and the institution of marriage.”

The Episcopal Church is routinely taken to task by the Africans and the Neville Chamberlains in the Church of England for our supposed abandonment of doctrine on sexuality.

I suppose it's not enough for those assholes that we hold off from consecrating gay bishops or sign a piece of paper saying that we've been very naughty. In order to rise to the level of holiness of the Ugandans, we've got to advocate murder and selling out of suspected homosexuals to the authorities.

Fuck these guys. Maybe we're better off without the Anglican South.

[ 13. June 2012, 21:05: Message edited by: Louise ]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Absolutely. These Ugandan churchmen have allied themselves with evil and are no better than those who were actively complicit with the Nazis. TEC must denounce them unequivocally, as I Expect General Convention to do this Summer. And we should have no time for the cowardly appeasers in the CofE.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

It appears that the Gay Agenda is actually progressing, since we are seeing more hysterical reactions to that program.

The American pastor who proposed electric fences around concentration camps (and maybe some food); the CofE bishops who have used apocalyptic language describing the greatest threat in 500 years to the Church; and now the African bishops trying to start tribal warfare by defining a new tribe to hate and attack.

Was Fred Phelps getting lonely or something? or is it just the Kryptonite that all them dam' gummints keep adding to the drinking water?

Posted by Mockingale (# 16599) on :

It's counterproductive. Saying "Oh, well, we just believe that the Bible is correctly interpreted as stating that all homosexual acts are sinful without exception" is one thing. You can disagree with it, but it's a defensible good-faith position. I'm sympathetic to it, even if I don't know that I agree with that position or not.

This crosses over into "we just think they're icky and we want them to die" territory. There's no love or compassion in this action - only persecution.

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :

Again, Christians are shooting themselves in the foot.

Africa is urbanizing and modernizing. African people have greater access to mobile phones, the internet and the wider world beyond them. African people often have relatives living in North America or Europe who have neighbours who are gay and lesbian. African people themselves are encountering more and more diverse people even at home.

These religious groups may win the battle, but how will they fare in a generation or two? Africans will probably never complete assume western values on morality (and vive la difference!), but they may eventually find the hysteria over this a waste of time and energy. The continent has real issues to deal with: resource exploitation, corruption, inept leadership, income inequality, etc.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:

Fuck these guys. Maybe we're better off without the Anglican South.

I'd say we're better off without some of them, not all. Archbishop Desmond Tutu has been very much in favour of gay rights, for example.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Again, Christians are shooting themselves in the foot.

These religious groups may win the battle, but how will they fare in a generation or two? Africans will probably never complete assume western values on morality (and vive la difference!), but they may eventually find the hysteria over this a waste of time and energy. The continent has real issues to deal with: resource exploitation, corruption, inept leadership, income inequality, etc.

And in the mean time gays get judicially murdered. Sure would be nice if some of those Anglican and Episcopal Bishops would offer to sponsor a gay affirming church in those benighted places. Of course that wouldn't honor their brothers in the World Church who are busy sponsoring anti-homosexual churches in America and England.

Posted by Mockingale (# 16599) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Of course that wouldn't honor their brothers in the World Church who are busy sponsoring anti-homosexual churches in America and England.

That would be colonial and racist of us. It's already bad enough that we treat gays with basic human dignity, which only emboldens Islamic terrorists. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Again, Christians are shooting themselves in the foot.

These religious groups may win the battle, but how will they fare in a generation or two? Africans will probably never complete assume western values on morality (and vive la difference!), but they may eventually find the hysteria over this a waste of time and energy. The continent has real issues to deal with: resource exploitation, corruption, inept leadership, income inequality, etc.
And in the mean time gays get judicially murdered. Sure would be nice if some of those Anglican and Episcopal Bishops would offer to sponsor a gay affirming church in those benighted places. Of course that wouldn't honor their brothers in the World Church who are busy sponsoring anti-homosexual churches in America and England.

The problem being that when gay friendly churches (like some Metropolitan Community Church plants) are set up, they become the targets of mob violence or sanction from the authorities. It's either formally or informally illegal for identifiable gay people to even meet as a group in Uganda, Nigeria, Rwanda and Zimbabwe, so churches can't operate openly.

[ 15. June 2012, 13:37: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]

Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Of course that wouldn't honor their brothers in the World Church who are busy sponsoring anti-homosexual churches in America and England.
That would be colonial and racist of us. It's already bad enough that we treat gays with basic human dignity, which only emboldens Islamic terrorists.

There are some who argue that the virulent homophobia prevalent in some African countries was introduced via colonialism and Christian missionary activity. Present-day US Evangelicals have also exerted a great deal of influence promoting homophobia in Africa. OliviaG

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
the CofE bishops who have used apocalyptic language describing the greatest threat in 500 years to the Church

Was that actually the bishops? Stephen Bates, no apologist for the CofE hierarchy, strongly implies that Ruth Gledhill, the Times religion correspondent, made the 500 years comment.

Besides, the 500 years comment is hardly the most silly thing in that report.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

But the fact that the CofE bishops have aligned themselves with the kid singing about "no homo in heaven" and the elecdtric-fence-concentration-camp guy speaks enough, without getting into petty arguments about 'he said, she said".

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Absolutely. These Ugandan churchmen have allied themselves with evil and are no better than those who were actively complicit with the Nazis. TEC must denounce them unequivocally, as I Expect General Convention to do this Summer. And we should have no time for the cowardly appeasers in the CofE.

We're Protestants, we should act like it and split. I don't see the point of TEC staying in the Anglican Communion any longer.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
We're Protestants, we should act like it and split. I don't see the point of TEC staying in the Anglican Communion any longer.

I see a point. If TEC splits, can you imagine how much the like-minded lay and clergy of the C of E will feel abandoned?

At the moment, it sometimes feels as if TEC is almost the only place where you can be an Anglican and not hang your head in shame.

[ 19. June 2012, 00:48: Message edited by: Oscar the Grouch ]

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
We're Protestants, we should act like it and split. I don't see the point of TEC staying in the Anglican Communion any longer.
I see a point. If TEC splits, can you imagine how much the like-minded lay and clergy of the C of E will feel abandoned?

At the moment, it sometimes feels as if TEC is almost the only place where you can be an Anglican and not hang your head in shame.

I think you're looking at this the wrong way round. This statement, cobbled together by a few shady people in Church House, is the tail wagging the dog. It claims to speak for an entire church whose great appeal is its breadth, making dishonest, disingenuous and simply unpleasant arguments about why "those people" shouldn't be allowed the same treatment as "decent normal folk".

The question shouldn't be about making sure the "nice" people in the CofE don't feel abandoned. We should be asking why the "nice" people would want to stay in a church that behaves in this way.

Supporting the good guys in this way would be indistinguishable, in practical terms, from supporting the church hierarchy. We should all declare "Not in my name" and leave, or nothing will ever change.

Posted by anne (# 73) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
The question shouldn't be about making sure the "nice" people in the CofE don't feel abandoned. We should be asking why the "nice" people would want to stay in a church that behaves in this way.

Supporting the good guys in this way would be indistinguishable, in practical terms, from supporting the church hierarchy. We should all declare "Not in my name" and leave, or nothing will ever change.

Yes, I think you are probably right. That's exactly what I should do.

Stopping me going are some (I think) creditable things: I do believe that I am doing useful work here for the church, I am exercising the ministry that God has called me to in the place that he has called me to.

But there are also some less creditable reasons: I need a job, I need a home, I don't know what else I would do, the diocese already thinks I'm a nuisance, and my pride means I'm not thrilled at the idea of proving them right.

So, to my shame at the response of my church, I get to add shame at my inadequate response. I don't know whether I'm a 'nice person', but I do know that I'm deeply saddened at the moment.

anne

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

Taking a stand is a very, very difficult prospect when there are so many practical implications. There are bodies that work with clergy who are leaving the church, but it's not an easy process, and it's not usually something that can be done quickly.

More than that, I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how they should act in this situation, and I hope it didn't come across like that. I've reached the end of my tether, and I'm probably going to go off on one, but others will see it differently. I just don't see any value in encouraging TEC to put up with this for the sake of other people who are putting up with it.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Absolutely. These Ugandan churchmen have allied themselves with evil and are no better than those who were actively complicit with the Nazis. TEC must denounce them unequivocally, as I Expect General Convention to do this Summer. And we should have no time for the cowardly appeasers in the CofE.
We're Protestants, we should act like it and split. I don't see the point of TEC staying in the Anglican Communion any longer.

More to the point, I'm not sure I see the point of the Anglican Communion itself anymore.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
At the moment, it sometimes feels as if TEC is almost the only place where you can be an Anglican and not hang your head in shame.

I have been completely dismayed at the CofE bishop's stance over gay marriage. Maybe we need some flying TEC bishops in the UK.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

At the moment, it sometimes feels as if TEC is almost the only place where you can be an Anglican and not hang your head in shame.

Less of the arrogant American exceptionalism please. I'm sure they have their faults too. And I;m sure one of them is their continual dismissal of African and Asian Christians as ignorant half-wits.

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Absolutely. These Ugandan churchmen have allied themselves with evil and are no better than those who were actively complicit with the Nazis. TEC must denounce them unequivocally, as I Expect General Convention to do this Summer. And we should have no time for the cowardly appeasers in the CofE.
We're Protestants, we should act like it and split. I don't see the point of TEC staying in the Anglican Communion any longer.
More to the point, I'm not sure I see the point of the Anglican Communion itself anymore.

Perhaps one reason is the fact that with the ecological crisis occurring, there needs to be a more global approach to dealing with the effect of climate change. The people of the Global south are going to pay heavily for the wastes of the Global north.

Any sort of international arrangement like the Anglican Communion which focuses on issues such as poverty and climate change can't be a bad thing.

The task I suspect is to move the conversation onto these justice issues rather than focus on sexuality.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Perhaps one reason is the fact that with the ecological crisis occurring, there needs to be a more global approach to dealing with the effect of climate change. The people of the Global south are going to pay heavily for the wastes of the Global north.

That'll serve them right for being so homophobic, won't it. If they can't be arsed giving even basic human rights to those they find icky, then I don't see why we should be arsed saving them from the effects of climate change.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
These religious groups may win the battle, but how will they fare in a generation or two? Africans will probably never complete assume western values on morality (and vive la difference!), but they may eventually find the hysteria over this a waste of time and energy. The continent has real issues to deal with: resource exploitation, corruption, inept leadership, income inequality, etc.

IMO, it is these real problems which help spawn these "moral" crusades. Real problems can be difficult to solve, it is easier to distract and scapegoat. Good that this sort of thing doesn't happen in the UK or the Americas.

Posted by Mockingale (# 16599) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

At the moment, it sometimes feels as if TEC is almost the only place where you can be an Anglican and not hang your head in shame.
Less of the arrogant American exceptionalism please. I'm sure they have their faults too. And I;m sure one of them is their continual dismissal of African and Asian Christians as ignorant half-wits.

For my part, I think that the Ugandan churchmen who signed onto this are very intelligent, educated, intellectually dishonest bigots. So they've got that going for them.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Perhaps one reason is the fact that with the ecological crisis occurring, there needs to be a more global approach to dealing with the effect of climate change. The people of the Global south are going to pay heavily for the wastes of the Global north.
That'll serve them right for being so homophobic, won't it. If they can't be arsed giving even basic human rights to those they find icky, then I don't see why we should be arsed saving them from the effects of climate change.

Personally I consider the right of impoverished Africans to clean water and food to be slightly higher up the priority list than gay marriage. YMMV.

Posted by anne (# 73) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Personally I consider the right of impoverished Africans to clean water and food to be slightly higher up the priority list than gay marriage. YMMV.

Where on your scale would you put the right of impoverished gay Africans not to be beaten, run out of their homes, abandoned by their churches or judicially killed because of their sexual orientation?

anne

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :

quote:
The Uganda Joint Christian Council, which includes Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox bishops, has called on parliament to move the notorious Anti-Homosexuality Bill forward.

I now know how my grandmother feels.

When black stand-up comedienne Gina Yashere (born to a Nigerian mother who often features in her acts) joked about watching the news with bated breath whenever it features a story involving some form of violent attack or hold-up, I laughed. I laughed because her waiting to see whether perpetrators were black, and her relief when they were not, or when their names revealed that they were what she termed "the other blacks" (Caribbean rather than African) reminded me of my grandmother's frustrated "Why it always have to be a black face?" when she saw similar reports.

As soon as I read of the involvement of Orthodox bishops, I desperately tried to make sure that they were "the other Orthodox". A small amount of Googling revealed that the member group is called the Uganda Orthodox Church, which is under the protection of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria.

I am ashamed.

[ 20. June 2012, 08:08: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :

For clarity's sake, I am not saying that support for this bill would be any less disgusting were it to come from the Oriental Orthodox or some independent group. I only mean to say that I can now relate to the "Please don't let it be us" feeling.

Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
A small amount of Googling revealed that the member group is called the Uganda Orthodox Church, which is under the protection of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria.

There is an old Orthodox saying that is worth knowing: The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
A small amount of Googling revealed that the member group is called the Uganda Orthodox Church, which is under the protection of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria.
There is an old Orthodox saying that is worth knowing: The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.

Saved for future use.

Thank you, Josephine.

Posted by Aelred of Rievaulx (# 16860) on :

ENglish bishops have unleashed a torrent of deserved abuse for their hubristic submission to the UK government's consultation on extending civil marriage (NOT marriage in churches note) to LGBT. They claimed to speak in the name of the Church without doing ANY consultation.

These are the bishops who are so keen to maintain relationships with the Ugandan and Nigerian homophobes that they never criticise them in public.

SO I think to myself - their thinking is so screwed up because, when push comes to shove, they put religious solidarity above human solidarity. Well, I don't - it seems to me that the point of the gospel is to make us one humanity - and if religion gets in the way so much the worse for it.

They make me vomit.

Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on :

And now, here they go again. What can be done?

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0