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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Parenting by same sex couples
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
The raising of children by same sex couples is already occurring in most developed countries, whether the laws allow for joint adoption, in-vitro fertilization, adoption of a partner's biological child, etc., for same sex couples or not. I am married to another man and hope to have children one day, but the arguments by the anti-gay marriage crowd about one mother and one father being better for a child make me worry whether wanting children, especially biological children, is a selfish thing for me. I know there are plenty of children that opposite sex couples are not willing to adopt (or that there are not enough opposite sex couples seeking to adopt children in order to be able to adopt them), and that studies for the most part have shown that children raise by same sex parents are just as happy and healthy as all other children. However, just because a child can be fully equipped for a successful life by being raised in a household with same sex parents does not necessarily mean that in some way it is not better for a child to have a father and a mother, if there is a choice.
I am unsure where my beliefs lie on this issue but I am tempted to think that conceiving a child for the express purpose of being raised by same sex parents or adopting children that are not overlooked by opposite sex couples due to age, disease, disability, or ethnicity might be willfully depriving a child of having the possibility of growing up living with a mother and a father, which the children of single heterosexual parents at least have the chance of if their parent marries.
Same sex couples can try to provide a strong role model of the opposite sex for their children like an aunt, uncle, or grandparent, but it is not the same as having parents of both sexes that live with the children and have parental rights and obligations over them. Many children with opposite sex parents do not have ideal role models in or good relationships with their parents but the same is true for same sex couples and will he more true when same sex couples do not need to fight as hard or be as brave in order to have children.
So to be clear, I am not arguing that same sex couples should not be allowed to adopt and raise children. I am worried, though, that if same sex couples want to raise children, they should only adopt children that opposite sex couples are not likely to adopt (or at least try to do so) and refrain from conceiving a child all for themselves through the many technological and legal means available in some countries. I am not talking about what should be the law or adoption agencies' preferences but what is the moral thing for same sex couples to do, but you can discuss law and adoption agencies if you want. So, what do all of you think?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ruudy
Shipmate
# 3939
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Posted
I am a married heterosexual male with four children that were conceived by us naturally. We have a lot of adoption in our family and circle of friends. We have not adopted...yet.
I don't believe that the questions about the morality of adoption you are asking are unique to same-sex couples. I believe that heterosexual couples that are able to conceive, heterosexual couples unable to conceive and same-sex couples should all consider carefully and prayerfully whether they should adopt children who are in "low demand". Why aren't we all thinking about adopting unwanted children? Why are people traveling to eastern Europe to adopt white babies when there are orphans in state-care nearby?
When same sex couples or opposite sex couples adopt, I am just grateful they are adopting a child that needs a home no matter whether the child is from a low-demand profile or not. Every child needs a home. The more adoption that occurs the better.
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The shipmate formerly known as Goar.
Posts: 1360 | From: Gatorland | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
I have close friends, two married women who have two children together, both of whom one of the two carried, having conceived through a sperm donation. You seem to be granting the claim that children raised by two parents of the same sex are worse off than children raised by two parents of different sexes. I think this is precisely the point that we need to contest. It's just not clear that it's the case. This assumes a whole range of essential differences between men and women that just aren't grounded in evidence.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
And where do single people fit into the scheme of things? Some of us make better parents than some heterosexual couples.
The point being that a family can be nurturing or abusive (and most likely somewhere in between) whatever the gender - or number - of the parents. The quality of the care is what is important.
Posts: 433 | Registered: Apr 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I can only speak from experience. My SIL's sister and her partner didn't adopt, they had AID (Artificial Insemination by Donor). The boys they had are now grown, fine young men - and exactly the same age as our two boys. One is studying particle physics at Cambridge and the other runs a charity for cats.
We meet them all at every family party and I can honestly say that having same sex parents seems to have made no difference whatever to them.
[ 28. October 2012, 14:03: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Why should your concerns about having/adopting children be taken as different from any other couple's?
"Are you prepared to do the best you can for the chid/ren?" is about the only question to ask, although, in addition, you may want to look at yourself to be sure you have prepared yourself as best you can, just as any other couple would.
Re: selfishness: it would be easier to argue that you are being selfish by NOT helping to raise a child, whether that be through Big Brothers, some other form of social agency, or by "doing it yourself".
Adding late thought: a local single lady adopted a girl about 30 years ago. The lady was a pillar of rural Baptist church, and the child is black, so you might expect possible problems. But the family of the lady and the church did fine, and the girl blossomed and is very successful now.
It doesn't necessarily take a couple, if you have a support net. But a committed couple is better because the support offered is immediate when you get yourself down.
[ 28. October 2012, 16:17: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I can honestly say that having same sex parents seems to have made no difference whatever to them.
As the T-shirt slogan says, "Jesus had two dads and he turned out ok." ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
Possibly you'd care to give some evidence that:
1: Every child who needs to be adopted is
2: Straight couples are better at raising kids than gay couples.
Because as I understand it, neither is the case. There are kids waiting to be adopted, so trying to implement a queueing system is just disadvantaging kids to no good purpose, and homosexual couples are actually better parents on average than heterosexual ones (although this is mostly because almost all homosexual parents actually want kids; take out the heterosexual parents who were pregnant accidently and things even out).
And you'll also have to prove your assertion that any significant number of people "[conceive] a child for the express purpose of being raised by same sex parents" rather than conceive a child because they want a child.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
A Long Island couple was arrested Friday after police say they were found under the influence of drugs with their two young boys roaming their house among hundreds of uncapped hypodermic needles.
<snip>
Authorities say officers entered the home and found the boys' father, 24-year-old Jeffrey Littlefield, who allegedly stumbed to the floor when he approached the officer. After interviewing the father, the boys mother, 23-year-old Heather Littlefield, was found unconscious in the bedroom. Both parents were under the influence of drugs, police said.
Police say more than 200 used and uncapped hypodermic needles, and at least one hypodermic needle loaded with drugs were found in the home. The needles were allegedly found in virtually every room in the house. Also confiscated was drug paraphernalia, used glassine bags, several knives and two rifles with ammunition, authorities said.
Interestingly enough, having interlocking genitals and a marriage license doesn't automatically make you a good parent. I'm also fairly certain that no one involved in the Littlefield case ever said "Yeah, but at least these kids weren't being raised by same sex parents! That would've been awful!"
I read an interview once with someone involved in the process of adoption, who fairly bluntly stated that the gay community is where adoption agencies often turn to find parents for children no one else seems to want. While that's great and admirable, perhaps there are some members of "the gay community" who want children of their own but don't necessarily feel equal to cleaning up some horrible situation created by a straight couple.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I'm glad that so many of you are so supportive of gay parents. It is because of arguments like yours that I believe same sex couples should be able to adopt and raise children. However, my husband and I are, I suspect, not the only LGBT people who feel guilty that, even if we are great parents and our children grow up to be wonderful, happy people, we will have done something wrong in depriving them of a mother. Single heterosexual parents who never intend to marry are in a similar situation, but circumstances in life might make them change their mind. Asexual single parents who do not desire even a platonic relationship with the opposite sex would also be in a similar situation.
I agree that many of the stereotypical roles of mothers and fathers are culturally imposed and that biology does not necessarily make women better at all stereotypically "motherly" tasks and vice versa for men. However, I have two counterarguments to this:
1. Most scientists agree that there are biologically caused differences in behavior between men and women. Most people would not argue that for just about any animal species you can study that has male and female sexes (and does not do parthenogenesis or anything like that), the males and females act differently towards their children. In psychology, even now that Freud's theories are largely discredited, it is still common to talk about innate attitudes towards children that differ among the human sexes - and I would suspect that even many psychologists who argue for strict egalitarianism between the sexes in all spheres would accept that this is true. Being male and seeing the immense importance that just about every culture places on motherhood, I cannot help but suspect that some of the positive things mothers are associated with are in part biologically influenced.
2. Even if all the differences between human fathers and mothers are merely cultural - culture matters! I am not talking about worrying that children will be made fun of for not having a mother - the existence of discrimination does not justify the perpetuation of it. Rather, I am arguing that since people are unable to pull themselves out of the social and cultural contexts in which they act, we will have to contend with differing notions of "fatherhood" and "motherhood" for thousands of years to come in spite of all efforts to make society sexually egalitarian. Social constructs that they might be, they will influence children raised by same sex parents in ways that all the studies to date probably would have difficulty measuring and that science may never be able to measure. I am not talking about religion vs. science here. I am talking about the humanities vs. science, and about the fact that the social "sciences" often resemble the humanities more than the natural sciences.
Does any of this prove that there is anything about having two fathers or two mothers that is worse than having one father and one mother? No - but I think it at least gives me room to wonder whether I am doing anything wrong in if and how I go about having children without writing myself off as merely a self-hating homophobe. I am not trying to tell other people whether or how they should have kids. I still want to have kids even in spite of my doubts, although my husband and I are not sure how to go about doing it. This should not be a personal discussion about me - and certainly not a means of obtaining advice - these forums are mainly for entertainment, after all. I'm just talking about gay couples (who should be allowed to adopt and have kids) thinking about having kids, and what moral considerations they should take into account. I think that maybe they should try to adopt kids that agencies have a hard time matching with parents because maybe they should try to continue to promote one father and one mother as the norm for some reason. But I might be wrong! And I might change my mind! So please continue the discussion with those things in mind!
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
... 1. Most scientists agree that there are biologically caused differences in behavior between men and women. ...
Other than reproductive fuctions, what behaviours are exclusive to human males? What behaviours are exclusive to human females? It's 5:22 pm, and I can't think of a single thing I've done today that couldn't / wouldn't have been done by a man.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Stonespring, my opinion is that unless you're going to go out of your way to ensure your child/children have no interaction with adult females whatsoever, you'll be fine.
The people who argue against same-sex couples as parents seem to me to elevate "parents as role models" to an unnecessary degree. Are parents big role models for children? Absolutely. Are they the only role models? Absolutely not.
I'm gay, but was raised in a standard nuclear family. Dad, Mum, 2 kids. The people who influenced me were many and varied, and I think it would be a huge stretch to put the entire burden of being my role models onto just my 2 parents.
For starters, they couldn't role model for me how to be homosexual man. Neither of them would have a clue.
(And that's what created the twisted, malfunctioning individual you see before you today. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ruudy
Shipmate
# 3939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
However, my husband and I are, I suspect, not the only LGBT people who feel guilty that, even if we are great parents and our children grow up to be wonderful, happy people, we will have done something wrong in depriving them of a mother.
Stonespring, you are not doing the depriving. The depriving has already been done. Children in state care or an orphanage have been deprived of both parents and even grandparents. And as Justinian pointed out until you can show that
quote:
1: Every child who needs to be adopted is
you would not be creating a problem, you'd be ameliorating one. My responsibility is not to be the perfect parent. I can't do that. My responsibility is to do the very best I can with what I have to offer and to then leave the results up to God.
You would not be depriving a child of a mother. You would be providing an orphan two parents.
I do not wish to be flippant or to be dismissive of your concerns. Go over these prayerfully with your partner and your priest/spiritual director. There are so many things to take into account when considering adoption.
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The shipmate formerly known as Goar.
Posts: 1360 | From: Gatorland | Registered: Jan 2003
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
... 1. Most scientists agree that there are biologically caused differences in behavior between men and women. ...
Other than reproductive fuctions, what behaviours are exclusive to human males? What behaviours are exclusive to human females? It's 5:22 pm, and I can't think of a single thing I've done today that couldn't / wouldn't have been done by a man.
I don't think that there are behaviors that are exclusive to men or women, but that in parenting there are some things that for some biological reason one sex either performs better than the other or children might be wired to expect to come from a parent of a certain sex. I am talking about things more subtle than mothers as nurturers and fathers as providers - men can be just as good at nurturing and women can be just as good at providing. I am thinking about things like demonstrating how men can be respectful of women and how women can be strong in a sexist world, or about being present in a different body than the other parent and being able to talk about how those bodies are different when the kids ask about it (and hopefully not in disgusting detail like my parents did when I was way too young! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) (sorry, TMI)). I know these sound like things that can easily be done by a role model of the opposite sex outside the nuclear family but I feel that a member of the nuclear family with full parental rights would do it better (assuming the mother-mother and the "mother figure" a gay couple tried to provide, in each scenario, were equally good role models). When I hear compassionate, wise conservatives say that gay parenting, no matter how well intentioned, is abusive to children's consciences and attitudes about the world, I can't help but feel a pang of guilt, even if I disagree with them about gay marriage and many other things.
Also, yes, there are more children in need of adoption than there are households willing to adopt, but, at where I live, people seem to say that there are long waiting lists to adopt healthy white children (unless they come from psychologically traumatic environments like some Russian orphanages). Not only that, but there are not that many white or non-white children up for adoption who are not sick, disabled, psychologically or behaviorally troubled from the environment they were born into, jaded and angry from years in the foster system, etc. I am willing to adopt any kid as long as I feel up to the task of being a strong and loving parent for him/her, but my impression that, although it is fundamentally unfair, there are two types of adoptions, difficult, expensive ones that take a long period of waiting (for healthy infants), and easier ones (that still take a lot of paperwork, interviews, money, and waiting, but less so) for the children society has left behind. Of course, adoption agencies will not let a family adopt an ill child unless they have the time and money to provide for her/his care. All of this is to provide evidence for my assertion that there are children up for adoption that are likely to be adopted by a straight couple if no gay couple adopts them, and there are children that are not likely to be adopted by anyone.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
I'll start by saying I'm a lesbian and I work in a parenting support programme for kids with severe (criminal, usually) behaviour problems.
Quite honestly, Stonespring, if you and your partner go into parenting with the honest intent to do the best you can, you'll be doing better than most of the straight parents I work with. You want to be able to demonstrate how a woman can be strong in a sexist world, introduce the child to strong women. Some of my kids are more familiar with dad beating up mum daily. You, yourself, can demonstrate how men can be respectful of women. Some of my kids will never see that because of the nasty sexist attitudes found in gangs.
I often work with parents who shouldn't be given a pet rock to care for, and they are screwing up their children's lives much worse than a gay or lesbian couple who choose parenting could possibly manage. I expect there are terrible lesbian and gay parents, but I doubt there are the percentage of them that there are terrible straight parents.
Compassionate, wise conservatives clearly don't enter the same neighbourhoods I do.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
My (straight) parents weren't good role models on any number of issues. As I grew up I worked that out and decided for myself who I am and how I want to act.
The reality is, unless you live in a situation where you have no contact with anyone other than your parents, you'll have a number of role models to learn from.
Posts: 433 | Registered: Apr 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Originally posted by stonespring
quote:
I don't think that there are behaviors that are exclusive to men or women, but that in parenting there are some things that for some biological reason one sex either performs better than the other or children might be wired to expect to come from a parent of a certain sex.
ISTM this is more cultural conditioning than biological.
Nothing in ones sexual preference makes one a better or worse parent. In my experience, like Arabella's, I've met fewer poor same sex parents than straight. But I think it is a process issue.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Nothing in ones sexual preference makes one a better or worse parent.
I wonder. It seems to me that, if anything, they would tend to be better parents in some ways because of their commitment to cultural transmission. Admittedly, this is little more than a hunch, although not an original idea. I can't cite any hard research off-hand, but it is reflected in the occupations in which they excel. Historically and cross-culturally the same pattern seems to hold.
I also suspect the existence of a gay gene, at least for male homosexuality, although it works not in the individual but in his mother (which is one reason why it would be so elusive). If homosexuality is hereditary in even as circuitous a way as this, some survival advantage must be associated with it to compensate for the obvious fact that gay people reproduce at a lower rate. If this very fact leaves them particularly available, and even particularly suited and eager, to serve as adoptive or 'supplementary' parents to children whose biological parents, for whatever reason, are not functioning well, then there would be a compensatory benefit to the community, and the survival of the gene would be explained.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
ISTM, the lower percentage of "bad" gay parents is due, in part, to the choice being more deliberate and difficult. Planning isn't required to become a straight parent, societal disapprobation is not an issue, per se. In other terms, the very process lends to a more considered outcome. Gay parents also skew older, this helps as well.
Not saying you are wrong, Alogon, just there are non-biological reasons to consider.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Even if being a gay couple made people less than optimal parents, the question is, does _anything_ that makes one a less than optimal parent disqualify them for parenting?
At the time my daughter was concieved my then husband was an active alcoholic. Should I not have had a child? Personally I think that my daughter is an asset to the world.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
ISTM, the lower percentage of "bad" gay parents is due, in part, to the choice being more deliberate and difficult. Planning isn't required to become a straight parent, societal disapprobation is not an issue, per se. In other terms, the very process lends to a more considered outcome.
I would definitely agree with this.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ruudy
Shipmate
# 3939
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Posted
Is it fair to say that same sex households tend to come from middle and upper socioeconomic levels? That gays from middle and upper socioeconomic levels are more likely to come out and form same-sex households than those from lower socioeconomic situations?
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The shipmate formerly known as Goar.
Posts: 1360 | From: Gatorland | Registered: Jan 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ruudy:
Is it fair to say that same sex households tend to come from middle and upper socioeconomic levels? That gays from middle and upper socioeconomic levels are more likely to come out and form same-sex households than those from lower socioeconomic situations?
I wouldn't say that's true regarding same-gender households but I would say that's true regarding same-gender households who decide to have children, at least for gay male households. There are more lesbian couples who have children together (that is, not children from a previous heterosexual relationship) from lower socioeconomic groups. I would imagine this is because it's cheaper and easier for a lesbian couple to have a child together - get a friend to be a sperm donor, a turkey baster and you're done, as long as there are no fertility issues. Gay men have to go down the adoption or surrogacy route.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Adding to what Jade has said, lots of lesbians form families that include children from prior heterosexual partnerships. This is common across all socioeconomic strata, and from my experience where there is the occasional nasty moment. Lesbian and gay couples who are childfree and set out to change that don't usually stuff up too badly once children arrive.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Just to add to the "Yes to parenting" side: Consider the grandparents
You (the same-sex couple) will be offering a blessing to them, as well as getting one back. There's nothing like a grandchild for opening a lot of doors.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
My sister and her partner raised four daughter between them (each had two from a previous het marriage) and all four are wonderful women and ultimately the lesbians were much better parents than the ex-husbands are their new wives. The experience has informed and shaped the four girls and they are all tireless advocates for justice in various forms (from a lawyer to two special ed teachers to a social worker).
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
Lesbian and gay couples who are childfree and set out to change that don't usually stuff up too badly once children arrive.
One of the important skills for parenting is planning. If a childless same-sex couple decides to become parents together it typically requires a lot more planning than your typical opposite-sex couple.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
quote:
When I hear compassionate, wise conservatives say that gay parenting, no matter how well intentioned, is abusive to children's consciences and attitudes about the world, I can't help but feel a pang of guilt...
You will have to get used to feeling guilty if you want to be a parent. Whatever you do will be wrong according to someone, and I speak as a married, middle-class straight mother - those conservatives you speak of should approve of me, right? Riiight...
And honestly, if 'abusive to children's consciences and attitudes' is code for 'encouraging them to think that homosexuals are just ordinary people'... shouldn't we all be aiming for this?
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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