Thread: The Tatler Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=028702

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Shortly after arriving on the Ship many moons ago, I found myself encountering a mysterious word - the word 'Tat'.

I quickly fathomed that 'Tat' is a catch-all term for the things which are used in worship - whether worn, or used to fill things, carry things, make strange noises, or, occasionally, to set things on fire.

Tat can range from the robes of priests - the fiddleback, the almuce, the Geneva gown. or the clothes of the lay-folk such as the lovely mantilla (here combined with something else which evades me...)

It covers chalices, thuribles, altar hangings and many other things, functional and decorative, which play their part in assisting the worship of God - and thus fulfilling the injunction of the psalmist 'Let all things praise the Lord'.

This thread - which I have Christened 'The Tatler' on the advice of an illustrious fellow Host - is humbly proffered as a place for discussion of Tat-sightings, posting of photoes, and queries about Tat of an outlandish, cryptic or indescribable nature. I also sincerely hope that it will be a place for discussing not only what we do with Tat, but also Why we do it.

I'm sure it will also house many other germane things which I haven't mentioned here as well. One thing about Eccles is that I never ceased to be surprised.

On which note... over to you!

"Ad majorem dei gloriam"
 

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Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :
 
I've not encountered the word "tat" before in this context. Does the bit about making strange noises include musical instruments or just tinkly little bells for eucharistic moments?
 

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Posted by Cyprian (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
I've not encountered the word "tat" before in this context. Does the bit about making strange noises include musical instruments or just tinkly little bells for eucharistic moments?

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I don't think you could call musical instruments tat. Little bells on the chains of censers or on the bishop's sakkos are good examples of noise-making tat.

[ 03. September 2009, 15:13: Message edited by: Cyprian ]
 

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Posted by Saint Chad (# 5645) on :
 
I thought we were going to be discussing this fine periodical, but this is much more worthwhile.

quote:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
the lovely mantilla (here combined with something else which evades me...)

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Perhaps she's a Churchwarden, or a Virger.

From what I remember from my 'A' level studies of Spanish Holy Week customs, various brotherhoods (and I assume sisterhoods) make processions and decorated staves like the one pictured do figure prominently. Presumably symbolic of the group in procession?
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cyprian:

quote:

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Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
I've not encountered the word "tat" before in this context. Does the bit about making strange noises include musical instruments or just tinkly little bells for eucharistic moments?

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I don't think you could call musical instruments tat. Little bells on the chains of censers or on the bishop's sakkos are good examples of noise-making tat.

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The little bells are called tintinnabula, apparently, and I would have included them to indicate our inclusivity of the Eastern Rites, but no piccies no hand

Am I right in thinking that there are often twelve to symbolise the Apostles spreading forth the Good News? Surely Cyprian told us that...

Oh and,

quote:

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Originally posted by Saint Chad:
I thought we were going to be discussing this fine periodical, but this is much more worthwhile.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cyprian:

quote:

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Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
I've not encountered the word "tat" before in this context. Does the bit about making strange noises include musical instruments or just tinkly little bells for eucharistic moments?

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I don't think you could call musical instruments tat. Little bells on the chains of censers or on the bishop's sakkos are good examples of noise-making tat.

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The little bells are called tintinnabula, apparently, and I would have included them to indicate our inclusivity of the Eastern Rites, but no piccies no hand

Am I right in thinking that there are often twelve to symbolise the Apostles spreading forth the Good News? Surely Cyprian told us that...

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Worry not, kind host. No exclusiveness was inferred.

I think that Greek censers often have twelve. Followers of the Greek tradition love the little bells and they use them all the time. Russian churches tend to have one without bells for fasting seasons and one with bells for more festive seasons. Even then, in my experience, there are fewer bells than twelve. The one used at our cathedral for the patronal festival last week only had two. At my parish, we have one with bells which we inherited from somewhere - possibly the closed Bradford parish. We never use it because we find the bells distracting, especially when you bear in mind that the church is censed in preparation for the Gospel - during the Epistle. I think it stems from our previous situation, where were in a tiny basement chapel. Perhaps now in our new church it may be more bearable. I'll perhaps suggest we use it one time and see what happens.

There's a photo of one here and you can hear one in this video of the Lesser Entrance.
 

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Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
For the more non-conformist amongst us, there are other forms of tat.

Amish dress is, like the mantilla, another example of religous dress amongs the laity. Some non-demonational / pentecostal groups go in for garments like this preaching jacket.

Of course, other religions have their own variations too. I have no idea what the container of the sacred flame is normally called, or normally looks like ...
 

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Posted by 3rdFooter (# 9751) on :
 
Good thread. The 'why' is the important question and a place that a lot of us get confused.

So...

Bell for the epiclissis. I get that.
Bell for each elevation. I think I get that. A kind of audible genuflection??
Bell when the celebrant takes communion?? I am not sure I get that.

Anyone care to elucidate?
 

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Posted by ostiarius (# 13726) on :
 
In our liturgies, it notifies the congregation that it is time to receive Communion. I think the bells are a carry over from the mumbled/silent mass when the pew-sitters very likely had no clue what was going on.
 

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Posted by 3rdFooter (# 9751) on :
 
So a slightly musical 'Draw near with faith...'

Makes sense but also makes nothing really to do with the celebrant. In some ways it should be before s/he takes communion as one of the people.

There are plenty of churches today where it is hard to impossible for most of the congo to see what is going on. Goes double if the celebrant is on the west side of the alter (FX:sound of north-end supporters cheering).
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Its a good idea to have a tat thread, thanks for it. I like to ask questions about why in areas of tat and what things mean. I wonder though whether its best as random questions, sightings or discussion on tat.

What I mean is if we have a thread say on Baptism and how its done in different places does it mean that if someone starts talking about what clergy wear at baptisms it goes off topic. I say that cos I thought vesture at ordination was part of talking about ordination. I thought of ordination as a celebration and was asking why sombre robes were used. But then it was suggested it was off topic and should be here.

I can honestly see both points of view, and I'd be helped by knowing whether anything that is tat has to be discussed here and not anywhere else.

[ 04. September 2009, 09:28: Message edited by: Laetare ]
 

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Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
Traditionally speaking, the celebrant's communion completes the offering of the Eucharistic sacrifice. Remembering that originally a great part of the liturgy would have been unintelligible to most of the congregation who would probably not have been paying much attention anyway, the bells act as reminders that significant events of the liturgy are taking place: Oi, you lot! Look! So epiclesis, elevations, celebrant's communion are accompanied by bells as being the significant events of the eucharistic sacrifice.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
Good thread. The 'why' is the important question and a place that a lot of us get confused.

So...

Bell for the epiclissis. I get that.
Bell for each elevation. I think I get that. A kind of audible genuflection??
Bell when the celebrant takes communion?? I am not sure I get that.

Anyone care to elucidate?

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On the Mass of western rite thread it was pointed out that the bell when celebratant takes communion no longer is rung. So it must be a left over from times past, 3rd Footer. Mind you that doesnt explain why it was done then does it!

(PS Again simply for clarification on this thread - I'd not considered discussion of when bells where rung as 'tat' discussion either, I think I must have got my tat definition wrong??)
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Laetare:

The idea would be to have this as a catch-all for specific 'tat' issues that probably don't merit a thread of their own, similar to the 'Random liturgical questions' thread.

Obviously, tangents that grow out of existing threads will still be fine so long as they don't start to swamp the thread or prevent other aspects of debate there.

I hope this helps.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
djo - thats very helpful, and I think its a good idea in that line. Like the random questions one.
Its just I was put off on the ordination thread when talk of vestments colour on ordinations was seen as a tangent and should be discussed here.

Your explainationj helps me see what its about and I think its good, and I'm sure it'll be a very big thread soon
 

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Posted by CorgiGreta (# 443) on :
 
Sorry, but I don't like this thread for many of the same reasons I gave regarding "Random...", and this thread doesn't even have a "little discussion" limitation, not that such limitation has been observed in Son of Random, as well-illustrated by the current postings there regarding Requiem Masses.

If people want to use it, fine. That's their decision, but if I have any questions or comments regarding tat or matters liturgical, I'll just go ahead and start a thread.

Greta
 

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Posted by 3rdFooter (# 9751) on :
 
Do bells not count as 'tat'? I thought so under the heading 'other things, functional and decorative'. Not much point having a bell if you don't ring it and you ought to understand why you ring it when you do.

Still think its a good thread.
 

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Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
Discussions of tat on this thread, including bells, are encouraged - discussions on thread policy, hosting etc not so much. Those belong in Styx.

Thanks,

Doublethink
Eccles Host
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
Sorry, but I don't like this thread for many of the same reasons I gave regarding "Random...", and this thread doesn't even have a "little discussion" limitation, not that such limitation has been observed in Son of Random, as well-illustrated by the current postings there regarding Requiem Masses.

If people want to use it, fine. That's their decision, but if I have any questions or comments regarding tat or matters liturgical, I'll just go ahead and start a thread.

Greta

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quote:

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Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
Bell when the celebrant takes communion?? I am not sure I get that.

Anyone care to elucidate?

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A kind of 'dinner is served' thing, in place of banging the dinner gong?

Ref: a post further up, isn't the bell arrangement a crotalus, rather than a tintinabula?
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

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Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
Bell when the celebrant takes communion?? I am not sure I get that.

Anyone care to elucidate?

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A kind of 'dinner is served' thing, in place of banging the dinner gong?

Ref: a post further up, isn't the bell arrangement a crotalus, rather than a tintinabula?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cyprian:


I think that Greek censers often have twelve. Followers of the Greek tradition love the little bells and they use them all the time. Russian churches tend to have one without bells for fasting seasons and one with bells for more festive seasons. Even then, in my experience, there are fewer bells than twelve. The one used at our cathedral for the patronal festival last week only had two. At my parish, we have one with bells which we inherited from somewhere - possibly the closed Bradford parish. We never use it because we find the bells distracting, especially when you bear in mind that the church is censed in preparation for the Gospel - during the Epistle. I think it stems from our previous situation, where were in a tiny basement chapel. Perhaps now in our new church it may be more bearable. I'll perhaps suggest we use it one time and see what happens.

There's a photo of one here and you can hear one in this video of the Lesser Entrance. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
How do you not know when the celebrant is receiving? Even at an eastward-facing mass it's fairly obvious, surely?

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Surely you are not suggesting opening one's eyes, Father!
 

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Posted by 3rdFooter (# 9751) on :
 
They are cool. I am left wondering how they get the wax out of the vestments and carpet afterwards.
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
How do you not know when the celebrant is receiving? Even at an eastward-facing mass it's fairly obvious, surely?

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Surely you are not suggesting opening one's eyes, Father!

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quote:

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Originally posted by HangarQueen:
Those triple candelsticks that the Bishop is holding are cool! What are they called?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

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Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
Bell when the celebrant takes communion?? I am not sure I get that.

Anyone care to elucidate?

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A kind of 'dinner is served' thing, in place of banging the dinner gong?

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quote:

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Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
They are cool. I am left wondering how they get the wax out of the vestments and carpet afterwards.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
They are cool. I am left wondering how they get the wax out of the vestments and carpet afterwards.

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You don't use beeswax candles at your church, do you? You should. Your altar guild would thank you for the suggestion.

Because of the high melting point of beeswax, generally only as much wax melts as is needed to feed the flame. There is hardly any excess melting so there is hardly any dripping. Also, because beeswax is quite soft and malleable, any drips left to solidify just peel off rather than turning hard and having to be scraped/ironed off surfaces.

It is the more paraffin-based candles that cause problems, but these are seldom seen in Orthodox churches. In fact, I'd be very surprised if you could find trikiri & dikiri candles available in paraffin wax.

[ 05. September 2009, 20:45: Message edited by: Cyprian ]
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doublethink:
I believe church bells were orignally said to drive away evil spirits. I wonder if there is any similar meaning to bells used during the service.

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quote:

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I'm pleased to see that the Society of Mary is embracing innovation. The latest copy of the magazine "Ave" contains a report of a May devotion in Oxford this year:

quote:

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A procession followed ... with helium filled balloons .... All the balloons were blue, except, of course, for that of the Bishop of Ebbsfleet, which was violet

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I think it's the "of course" that makes this passage. Pictures and text available in this PDF pp 31 & 33

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
What a fun topic! (What makes it a 'tatler' and not a main topic, I'm sure there's lots of fun and contribution could be made on this!

What happened at the end of this procession were the ballons let off.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
No. The Protestant Truth Society came around with pins and popped them all.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Is their realy such a Society, Leo or did you make it up, lol. I know there are objectors to Our Lady at the Walsingham shrine day.

I cant read that magazine online from the Society of mary because it jams on downloading and caused a prob on my PC. Thats a shame. I was wondering what of Our Lady's feasts they used the balloons for. On the Assumption could be super with the balloonns let up into the air at the end of the procession.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
leo did not make it up........

http://www.protestant-truth.org/

Be afraid....be very afraid......

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Laetare:
What makes it a 'tatler' and not a main topic, I'm sure there's lots of fun and contribution could be made on this!

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quote:

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the things which are used in worship … functional and decorative, which play their part in assisting the worship of God

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it was appropriate to transfer the information to this thread. If you're still unclear as to the purpose of this thread, feel free to take the question to the Styx rather than belabor it here.

Mamacita, Ecclesiantics Host
 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
In honor of Miss Amanda's strong feelings about acolyte footwear, as expressed on several former threads, I have posted this cartoon.

 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Laetare:
I cant read that magazine online from the Society of mary because it jams on downloading and caused a prob on my PC. Thats a shame. I was wondering what of Our Lady's feasts they used the balloons for. On the Assumption could be super with the balloonns let up into the air at the end of the procession.

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
As to whose mass - I am never sure of the relation of ABC parishes to the diocesan bishop and whether I am being schismatic or disloyal when I go there - but that is a tangent.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Laetare:
Oh!

Don't they look pretty!

That picture surely deserves a caption competition!

Seems this Oxford do was a bit of a laugh!

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Yeah, it brings new meaning to PEV:

Pretty
Eccentric
Vicars
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
m Martin L

And where do they get those lacy cottas from???
Tell me who sells them PLEASE I must get one or two, lol!
 

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Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
Your wish is my command ....

Or for your finer moments ...

[ 20. September 2009, 21:29: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Good try Doublethink, but neither have as much lace as the ones in the photos!

Everyone must have one like they have - but if they did what would they wear to be different!

Seems to me Anglo Catholic tat is a bit like that - who can be the prettiest boy around, and certainly who can stand out the most. Thats why a lot of 'em dont want to be RC 'cos then they'd be small fishes in a big pond.
 

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Posted by Foaming Draught (# 9134) on :
 
Do dust-covers for data projectors, and the variety thereof, count as tat for the purposes of this thread? And do we count the sartorial features of those communion services where the leader/presider/person running the show communes/is served last (I have in mind Lutheran churches of the Queensland District, and my own dear Infirmary for Sick Dissenters) as appropriate material? I bought a lovely Tommy Hilfiger short-sleeved shirt on Saturday, a steal from the airport estate factory shop, in a fetching liturgically-neutral shade of sort-of orangey-yellow so that it won't be limited to any particular season of the church's year. Would you like a photo?

FD
 

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Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
Well, I think that one of the defining features of tat is that it has a symbolic function. So if you would like to show a photo of a completely tat-free service - then the eccles photo thread would be the place.

However, if you happen to have decided to decorate your projector cover in a way that enhances your worship then it would be fine to put on this thread.

Doublethink
Eccles Host
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Someone asked how recently bishops, archdeacons, etc. wore Apron and Gaiters. FWIW, I remember them being worn occasionally in the Diocese of Lincoln in the late 1970s. +Phipps and the then Archdeaon of Stow wore them at a hunt bollocks, and other similar occasions.

I don't think the dress version of the old Episcopal rig is yet defunct. I ran into George Carey in Episcopal Evening dress c. 1992, and I have to say it suited him. I think I have also seen a photo of +Chartres in same more recently.

Left to my own devices I would wear Apron and Gaiters for diocesan meetings and formal dinners, but I don't have the money. Instead I wear rochet and red chimere at diocesan council, which seems to make the point.

PD

[ 27. September 2009, 05:36: Message edited by: PD ]
 

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Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
I think you meant bullocks rather than bollocks ...

What is the point you make with the rochet & chimere ?
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
No, I meant "the hunt bollock" - a.k.a. "The Hunt Ball." A fairly important occasion in the local social calendar back then.

As for rochet and chimere, they are actually the equivalent of the priest's cassock and gown and are the old outdoor dress of bishops. Therefore, it seems logical to wear them when, for example, I chair Diocesan Synod. The black or dark grey suit and purple shirt has become so pervasive that it is nice to shake things up once in a while. Also, with all those dark suits around it begins to look like a political conference, not a church meeting.

PD

[ 27. September 2009, 14:05: Message edited by: PD ]
 

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Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
Found a priest in gaiters.
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by PD:
Left to my own devices I would wear Apron and Gaiters for diocesan meetings and formal dinners, but I don't have the money.
PD

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I'm not so sure that is a good idea in your conservative region!

quote:

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Foaming:
And do we count the sartorial features of those communion services where the leader/presider/person running the show communes/is served last (I have in mind Lutheran churches of the Queensland District, and my own dear Infirmary for Sick Dissenters) as appropriate material?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

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Originally posted by PD:
Left to my own devices I would wear Apron and Gaiters for diocesan meetings and formal dinners, but I don't have the money.
PD

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I'm not so sure that is a good idea in your conservative region!

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quote:

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Originally posted by antSJD:
I have posted this in eccles because I thought people might be more likely to know here.

Where can I get a Canterbury Cap from? In particular in the Oxford area if anyone knows?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amos:
You will, I think, have to go to Wippell's. They have a few in stock in London--mostly size six, for priests with tiny heads. If your head's bigger than this they'll make you one. It takes about a month. They're not cheap.

However they are FABULOUS.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Metapelagius:
The Oxford ladies' academic cap is in essence a Canterbury cap. At least Mrs M's one looks just like the headgear sported by the only cleric I have ever come across who affected such a thing. It would appear that Messrs. Walters are at the moment giving the things away (while stocks last ...) as here

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quote:

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Originally posted by PD:
There are times when the church is so like just another bureaucracy run by incompetants that one needs to reintroduce a little bit of Barchester in order to retain what bit of sanity one has left. At least out here in the long grass we are reasonably immune from senior clergy who think they are CEOs, and CFOs, though we do seem to have a few who seem to have been left behind by UFOs.

PD

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Good to know that our Continuing brothers and sisters are maintaining the tradition of Anglican eccentricity. I suggest regular readings from Trollope and Barbara Pym should be incorporated in the Daily Office.

 

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Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Amos:
Metapelagius: undoubtedly the two are related. However in appearance there are enough differences that a man attempting to substitute the Oxford women's soft cap for the Canterbury cap would require a fair bit of chutzpah to carry it off.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amos:

I confess I have never seen a John Knox cap IRL.

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quote:

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I confess I have never seen a John Knox cap IRL.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PD:
Instead I wear rochet and red chimere at diocesan council, which seems to make the point.

PD

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quote:

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Originally posted by PD:

quote:

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Originally posted by Amos:

I confess I have never seen a John Knox cap IRL.

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It looks like a modified version of the Canterbury cap, but it has a sort of flap on the bottom that protests the ears and the back of the head.

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[Emphasis mine]

PD, are you doing this on purpose?
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:

quote:

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Originally posted by PD:
Instead I wear rochet and red chimere at diocesan council, which seems to make the point.

PD

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Surely a black chimere would be preferable?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Metapelagius:
It seems odd that any shop should be giving them away - unless the modern Oxford lady academic feels obliged to adopt traditionally male garb, which would render the ladies' caps unsaleable. Sad ....

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quote:

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Originally posted by PD:
Someone asked how recently bishops, archdeacons, etc. wore Apron and Gaiters. FWIW, I remember them being worn occasionally in the Diocese of Lincoln in the late 1970s. +Phipps and the then Archdeaon of Stow wore them at a hunt bollocks, and other similar occasions. PD

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
This morning at the eucharist I was watching as the celebrant set the table at the offertory. The practice here is to have the chalice and paten set up on the altar with burse and veil. At the offertory the burse is stood up to one side, and the veil folded and place near it.

I found myself wondering why the burse would be stood up.

Any ideas?

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Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
It's the traditionl way in th old Roman Rite. As for the "why", I imagine it's partly that it looks nice. Also, older western altars were often very narrow, and it may simply be that standing it upright rather than lying it flat was a way of conserving surface space.
 

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Posted by Quam Dilecta (# 12541) on :
 
I agree with Michael Astley. The usage described is customary where mass is celebrated ad orientem. The stiffness of the burse allows it to be leaned against the gradine (where provided) or one of the candlesticks, thus (as M.S. has said) conserving space on the mensa.

The softer veil is folded and laid to the right of the corporal on the mensa. At masses with incense, prudence dictates that the veil be folded with the lining, rather than the silk face, exposed, lest the silk be damaged by a stray coal from the thurible.

On a freestanding altar, even if the celebrant uses a burse and veil, it is unlikely that there will be a convenient place to prop up the burse. It might be possible to stand the burse up like a tiny pup tent, but it would serve no purpose to do so, and it would be distracting.
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:

On a freestanding altar, even if the celebrant uses a burse and veil, it is unlikely that there will be a convenient place to prop up the burse. It might be possible to stand the burse up like a tiny pup tent, but it would serve no purpose to do so, and it would be distracting.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:

quote:

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Originally posted by PD:
Instead I wear rochet and red chimere at diocesan council, which seems to make the point.

PD

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Surely a black chimere would be preferable?

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quote:

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Originally posted by georgiaboy:

quote:

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Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:

quote:

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Originally posted by PD:
Instead I wear rochet and red chimere at diocesan council, which seems to make the point.

PD

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Surely a black chimere would be preferable?

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Which (red or black) is the more ancient/correct color for the chimere? My impression here in TEC-land is that until recently it was a high/low indicator, snake-belly bps wearing black, those higher up the candle going for red, and those in nose-bleed territory wearing red-purple ones that looked more like a manteletta (sp?). Is that a pond diff?

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quote:

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Originally posted by PD:
I think a good 50% of English bishops will wear Eucharistic vestments when appropriate.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

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Originally posted by PD:
I think a good 50% of English bishops will wear Eucharistic vestments when appropriate.

---

If by 'when appropriate' you mean when visiting a church where such vestments are customary, I think almost all English bishops will do so. I don't know if anyone has ever sighted the Bishop of Lewes in a chasuble, but he's the only one I can think of who is likely to refuse.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
...is there a good explanation for why you should still use rose on Advent 3...

---

I wish we had rose. Without spoiling the mood of the liturgy, it is a visual reminder (almost a counter-cultural act) that, even in the middle of traditionally penitential seasons, we do have every reason to rejoice, be glad, and celebrate.

In this age, when liturgical powers that be constantly try to de-emphasize the gloom and doom of Advent and Lent, one would think that an occasion for a little extra festivity in the middle of these seasons would be welcomed with opened arms. Yet, it is simply downplayed.
 

---

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
I'd disagree on the question of rose and blue. Purple for Advent I, II and IV and rose for III is the (old) Roman scheme. (Dark) Blue is the Sarum colour. Mixing and matching just creates a messy hotch-potch: use one scheme and stick with it.
 

---

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
My understanding was that what we now call "purple" and "blue" are really different shades of the dark colour historically used in Advent, perhaps with some local Uses leaning more heavily to one shade or another. The monks of Christminster certainly use rose on Gaudete and blue for the rest of Advent with quiet consciences.
 

---

Posted by Sacred London (# 15220) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Comper's Child:
No, Rose, is not just a lighter shade of purple. It's its own color altogether, so it is perfectly appropriate to still use Rose for the 3rd Sunday.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sacred London:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Comper's Child:
No, Rose, is not just a lighter shade of purple. It's its own color altogether, so it is perfectly appropriate to still use Rose for the 3rd Sunday.

---

'Roseus' is Latin for 'pink'.

---

'Rose' is actually a form of crimson. It comes under the term 'red' but tends towards the bluer end of the spectrum, unlike 'scarlet' which tends towards orange.

What is called 'roman' purple is also a form of red, even more towards blue but still with a preponderance of red. 'Violet', however is a form of blue with a tendency towards red.

Unfortunately the terms red/blue/purple/rose are all very vague. What is blue to one person is purple to another.

Getting back to the colour often used on the third Sunday in Advent, IMHO it is certainly wrong to use Pink. Some roses are pink, but pink is not Rose.

I hope that's that cleared up. As you were.
 

---

Posted by Sarum Sleuth (# 162) on :
 
Just to confuse matters still further, I can think of a few places that use a dark red for Advent, which was nearly as common in mediaeval England as blue. Westminster Abbey uses Murrey, which was the old custom there. To my eyes it looks like a dark red!

SS
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
Just to confuse matters still further, I can think of a few places that use a dark red for Advent, which was nearly as common in mediaeval England as blue. Westminster Abbey uses Murrey, which was the old custom there. To my eyes it looks like a dark red!

SS

---

That fits in with the sort of dark - linen - festal - red/green sequence that seems to underlie a lot of mediaeval colour sequences in England. So what we have is something like:

Advent and the 'Gesimas (perhaps Lent in poor laces) - Dark; i.e. violet, purple, or murry

Christmas, Epiphany, Eastertide, Pentecost - festal white or festal red

Rest of the year - ordinary red or perhaps green.

The one thing that does not emerge until quite late in the Middles Ages is the notion of a ferial colour. The older books all have a phrase like "red or at the will of the sacrist" for those odd occasions when the Ferial Mass and Office would be celebrated.

PD
 

---

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :
 
I have done a bit of research into the liturgical colour changes through the centuries, and find it quite fascinating. I would love to read some more... any suggestions for books on sacristy, vestments and symbology?

Somewhere on this ship, many months ago, a knowledgeable shipmate posted that one author of the early twentieth century had written what he considered a definitive tome on the subject; but alas I cannot find the reference now. I'm sure it was mentioned either here or in All Saints.
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:

Somewhere on this ship, many months ago, a knowledgeable shipmate posted that one author of the early twentieth century had written what he considered a definitive tome on the subject; but alas I cannot find the reference now. I'm sure it was mentioned either here or in All Saints.

---

You surely must be thinking of the The Parson's Handbook by the patron saint of Ecclesiantics the Blessed Percy (Dearmer).

(PS tried twice to edit the URL link without success. )

[Link repair. Mamacita, Host]

[ 03. December 2009, 20:23: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 

---

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
(PS tried twice to edit the URL link without success. )

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
The standard book on English colours is William St John Hope and Cuthbert Atchley: English Liturgical Colours, SPCK, 1918. It's pretty hard to come by these days.

SS

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
I put the words "saturno" and "clergy" into google images and got this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
I put the words "saturno" and "clergy" into google images and got this.

---

Thank you Think, that was helpful. What I do not know is what is nowadays usual headwear for Anglo catholic or RC Clergy out fo doors. Are you saying the Saurno is? It would more appear to be papal wear, from the link you suggest.

(Also as i mentioned we're interested in a reliable supplier.This would be about a recomendation, and cant be had just by Googling)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
I put the words "saturno" and "clergy" into google images and got this.

---

Thank you Think, that was helpful. What I do not know is what is nowadays usual headwear for Anglo catholic or RC Clergy out fo doors. Are you saying the Saurno is? It would more appear to be papal wear, from the link you suggest.

(Also as i mentioned we're interested in a reliable supplier.This would be about a recomendation, and cant be had just by Googling)

---

Well, let's see. You are an Anglo-catholic. One of the features of Anglo-catholics is that they are often familiar with Anglo-catholic priests. So... have YOU ever seen a priest in a saturno?

If not, why might this be?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
If you actually described what it was you had seen them wearing we'd have more chance of working out what it was.

---

Good point, Think, and thanks for making it, but Oh dear, thats difficult to do.

They vary, they are black, some have brims, some are round, some have what seem to be ear flaps and are soft in appearance. Perhaps if someone had a clerical hat picture web page it would help!
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
I put the words "clerical" and "hats" into google images and got this link.

(When I just put into google I got this link, which was less helpful.)

[ 16. January 2010, 10:28: Message edited by: Think² ]
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
Well done, Think! Thats a interesting collection of old hats from new Zealand.

But they dont fit for modern days clergy - at least I cant really see there ones I've spotted and am asking for help about. The one I described isnt there for example, and I've not seen vicars in top hats!

I have seen some vicars in berets.
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
Well your description fits one of these Eddy, is that what you meant ?
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 


Which just goes to prove how I cant describe hats - but that looks a sexy little number for the right priest

NO! Soft fabric, cant think better how to describe, flat topped if I remember.

Has anyone seen an AC priest in a Saturino? Can they be got in the UK?
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
Or there is this or this ?

Perhaps you have simply seen a priest in a black hat, rather than a specifically clerical hat ?
 

---

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
I am but a lowly Methodist minister, but when I go out I wear my black woolly hat. My Catholic and Anglocatholic colleagues seem to do the same.
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
Eddy, you might be interested in reading and posting on this website.
 

---

Posted by +Chad (# 5645) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clavus:
...with a cassock (especially when worn with a cloak...) the most appropriate hat is the saturno.

---

If one is of a continental inclination. If not, perhaps one of these.
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
Oh +Chad thats the one I was trying to describe. I see it seems to be called a canterbury cap. I saw an older priest wearing one at Walsingham.

Now Think likes Googling so I had a go to with Canterbury Cap and

this pic came up.

It looks a modern pic so some priests / vicars are wearing them but where do you buy them I ask?

I was PM'd by a kind guy who sent this link to a fantastic collection of priests hats. Trouble is its all in German which i dont understand so I dont know who can wear what and who does wear what.

Thanks too to Think for that link to that blog. Thats the Saturino then. Again though could I buy one of those anywhere - is there a London tailor that sells them?
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
A few of us still wear Canterbury Caps. I got mine from Vanheems about 15 years ago. It seems to come out mainly at funerals, and on other occasions when I have to hang around outside in a cassock or choir habit.

Otherwise my preferred outdoor headgear is a flat cap (winter) or a straw cowboy hat (summer).

PD
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Our curate a Canterbury cap - he carries it with him at Evensong although I have to say I've never seen him in it...
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
Is this what the well dressed Anglo catholic priest wears outdoors on his head - the canterbury Cap - seems a bit of an Anglican thing when u read about it, so maybe not preferred by ACs - any opinions on this.

Wikipedia sez its Anglican only, and the pics seem to be of Protestant Reformers in it.
 

---

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Our curate a Canterbury cap - he carries it with him at Evensong although I have to say I've never seen him in it...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
Is this what the well dressed Anglo catholic priest wears outdoors on his head - the canterbury Cap - seems a bit of an Anglican thing when u read about it, so maybe not preferred by ACs - any opinions on this.

Wikipedia sez its Anglican only, and the pics seem to be of Protestant Reformers in it.

---

quote:

---

the latter birettas and soup plate hats.

---

quote:

---

His individuality showed in his clothes: he had a strong sense of theatre. As a curate, he startled the Cambridge parishioners of St Andrew's, Chesterton, by bicycling in a cassock and a biretta, though eventually the bicycle chain chewed up the cassock. As diocesan education secretary, he raised eyebrows at the "ministry" (as it then was) in Curzon Street, central London, by appearing in a black, Spanish-style, broad-brimmed priest's hat

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:
What exactly is the difference between an alb and a cass-alb? Is it that a cass-alb is made of lighter material and fastened down the centre while an alb is of heavier fabric and fastened differently? Enquiring minds wish to know!

---

• Amice
• Alb
• Cassock-alb

quote:

---

Hello everyone. Now that I'm beginning to wear clericals more often, a friend of mine (who is also a bishop) and myself went to my favorite religious supplies store (Roman Catholic). He introduced me to the rabat. He said they were more formal and to be worn with the white neckband shirt. Which I understand. What I don't understand is that he said the vest front is more formal than the shirt front. I then stopped paying attention because of all the gold in there and the smell of beeswax was making me a little nauseous.

Here's the question: What's the difference between a vest front and a plain shirt front rabat? What's the difference between one with buttons and one that's "stock"?

Basically, I just need a general breakdown on Rabat culture. New Advent didn't have anything to break it down for me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
But why and when, would you use an alb instead of a surplice or a cotta ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the Ænglican:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
The standard book on English colours is William St John Hope and Cuthbert Atchley: English Liturgical Colours, SPCK, 1918. It's pretty hard to come by these days.

SS

---

Thanks for this! I try to stay up on these topics but have never heard of this text before. Would it be related (or identical) to this item from the Internet Archive?:

Introduction to English Liturgical Colours

ETA: Looks like it's a cut-down version...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Thanks! Does anyone still wear an amice these days? I notice they are not one of the items made by Watts. Does that mean they are such an optional thing that they are going the way of the dinosaur?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Thanks! Does anyone still wear an amice these days? I notice they are not one of the items made by Watts. Does that mean they are such an optional thing that they are going the way of the dinosaur?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
I had heard, though I don't know if it is true, that on an anglican cassock there are 39 buttons to representation the 39 articles.

For your reference:

• Amice
• Alb
• Cassock-alb

But why and when, would you use an alb instead of a surplice or a cotta ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Thanks! Does anyone still wear an amice these days? I notice they are not one of the items made by Watts. Does that mean they are such an optional thing that they are going the way of the dinosaur?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Thanks! Does anyone still wear an amice these days? I notice they are not one of the items made by Watts. Does that mean they are such an optional thing that they are going the way of the dinosaur?

---

When I wear Eucharistc vestments, I still use an amice. Although it takes longer to put on and off and needs a little bit of care to look right, I prefer the tradition alb and amice to the cassock-alb. IMO, when done right it looks much better.

PD

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:

The surplice is used for morning and evening prayer over the cassock. It is usually accompanied by tippet and hood for clergy. It is sometimes used for Baptism and Marriage with cassock and stole when these do not take place in the context of the Eucharist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Thanks! Does anyone still wear an amice these days? I notice they are not one of the items made by Watts. Does that mean they are such an optional thing that they are going the way of the dinosaur?

---

I've never seen anyone wear a traditional alb without an amice. Watts may no longer sell them because they are so easy to make (sew tapes onto two corners of a large rectangle of white fabric) that many people can do so in about 30 minutes, for a small fraction of the retail price.

---

I know of one occasion where amices were hastily improvised using pillowcases. Sarum Sleuth will know what I'm talking about!

 

---

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :
 
Thank you, that is really helpful information. I assumed bishops could wear apparelled amices, and maybe those officiating at a solemn high mass, but I was unsure if it would be the norm for those used to a higher church setting than I. I suppose though, if you do have such wonderful things in your vestry, you should be using them.

The diagrams I have also mention maniples. Are these still worn too? I have a feeling I have seen these worn in a Catholic Mass, but not sure if I've ever seen them worn in an Anglican church.
 

---

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:


The diagrams I have also mention maniples. Are these still worn too? I have a feeling I have seen these worn in a Catholic Mass, but not sure if I've ever seen them worn in an Anglican church.

---

quote:

---

did Anglo-Catholics in England ever embrace the cappa magna (I cannot imagine it in the US)?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:
... but I have one more question about maniples - do or did they ever have a purpose other than being an elegant addition to a vestment set?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:
And as yet I have no idea what is the norm for the orthodoxen to wear in all their layers

---

Western Rite Orthodox clergy vestments are essentially what you will know as western vestments. As for the majority, which are Byzantine Rite, there's actually very little difference with western traditions as far as deacons and priests go. After all, these things all have the same origins but merely developed differently in different parts of the world and at different times.

Priests

For the Eucharist, an Orthodox priest will wear his cassock (which is exactly what you think it is) and stikhar (what you know as an alb). Around his neck will be the epitrachil (stole) hanging down in front, and secured by the zone (cincture), which goes around his waist. Over this he will wear the phelon (chasuble). Instead of wearing the maniple on the left wrist, he wears cuffs on both wrists. And that's it. Over the top, he will wear his pectoral Cross (usually worn directly over the cassock when out and about unvested). So you can see how there's barely any difference from what you are accustomed to.

In addition, priests may be awarded certain distinguishing accoutrements for particular faithfulness or service to the Church. Among them are the gold-coloured pectoral Cross, the palitza (thigh shield), the nabedrennik (a different type of thigh shield), and various forms of headwear such as the kamilavka and the mitre. In addition, hieromonks, (priests who have been tonsured to the monastic state), traditionally wear a veil over the kamilavka. While this is still followed in some places, I have more commonly seen the more recent development of the kamilavka and veil combined to form the klobuk (which resembles the second rather than the first picture in that article).

Deacons

Orthodox deacons' vestments will also be generally familiar to you, Banner Lady, and are really quite straightforward. Worn over the cassock, they are the stikhar (which, unlike the priest's stikhar, is the equivalent of the tunicle/dalmatic, and not the alb), the orarion (stole), and the cuffs. That's it.

The orarion is worn over the left shoulder, as in the case of western deacons. However, unlike in the western tradition, it is worn over rather than under the dalmatic/stikhar. Also, it is not brought across to the right hip but simply hangs straight down in the front and back, fastening on the shoulder with a button. This is, I understand, the most ancient form of diaconal stole, and is what is found in ancient icons and mosaics.

Protodeacons and archdeacons (yes, our archdeacons are actually deacons and not priests ) wear what is called the double-orarion, which may also be granted as an honour to other deacons for particular service to the Church. This is, essentially, an orarion of double length. One end hangs from the left shoulder straight down the back. The other end is brought across the front, wrapped under the right arm and brought back up the back, where it again hangs at the left shoulder straight down the front. See here.
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
Tat Primer

Tatology for the advanced student
 

---

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :
 
Wow. You guys are better than our local theology library!

One of the frustrating things for me, is that because I have made a few vestments, people assume I know everything about them. I don't (hence the crash course in filling in some of the background). Many ordinands these days have no church bacground, and many come from different denominations, so they ask me a lot of questions. Thanks. (And no doubt I'll think of a few more soon!)
 

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Posted by Hebdom (# 14685) on :
 
BL, here is a link you will enjoy

DIY tat

Look for Lucy Mackrille and the PDFs from her book. You may know of it. Somewhere in that there are directions for making an amice, should you be so inclined.

The illustrations are 1920s black and white. I tried drafting an alb pattern from her instructions, gave up, they were impossible, the dimensions were illogical. In the end I bought one online, as per Foaming Draught's instructions. Bought a cass-alb, because if you're not wearing a chasuble, dalmatic or tunicle over the top, it looks a lot better on those of us who are traditionally built than an alb does.
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
Tat Primer

Tatology for the advanced student

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
Feel free to use the UBB thread in styx to practice.

Whilst writing your post, you press the url button and put in the url then press return and put in a description of the link.

T²

Eccles Host

---

Unfortunately my main way of accessing e-mail has compatibility issues with UBB, so that isn't really a possibility unless I have time to mess around with SoF at the office. At the moment getting to the office is a problem. I just off to dig out yet again!
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
Interesting period tat in the film Cromwell, on BBC 2 at the moment. Especially as the film maker is clearly trying to distinguish the puritan, protestant and roman catholic dress.
 

---

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :
 
What is the correct plural for 'stole'? Is it 'stoles' or is it something more ancient, like 'stolae' or....
 

---

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
It's stoles in English. (The Latin is stola/stolae).
 

---

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by seasick:
It's stoles in English. (The Latin is stola/stolae).

---

I gather this varies according to case and maybe some other factors? For example, the All Saints' Day antiphon O quam gloriosum describes the saints as ...amicti stolis albis... ("clothed in white robes").

Oblatus non magister latinum (or whatever)
 

---

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:
What is the correct plural for 'stole'? Is it 'stoles' or is it something more ancient, like 'stolae' or....

---

Plain old "stoles". Whatever its origins, it has become anglicised and takes a usual English plural.

However, your question reminds me of one of my own. Words for eastern stuff has come into Engish usage in different ways. Some items have western equivalents and are simply called by their western names (censers, fans, and so forth). For other things, either the Greek or Russian words have become anglicised to varying degrees with use, often with no consistency whatsoever. The Greek "orarion" seems to be more commonly used for a deacon's stole, but retains the Greek plural "oraria". Yet the Russian word orar is quite common among English speakers. How would one pluralise it? I also wonder the same thing about iconostas (as, despite google's search results, it is more common in my personal experience than iconostasis, and it is less difficult to say if, like me, you have a lisp).

Any help would be welcomed.
 

---

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
Indeed it does - I just gave the nominative. If you are so inclined the full paradigm is available.

[Cross post with Michael Astley]

[ 25. January 2010, 20:20: Message edited by: seasick ]
 

---

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :
 
There seems to be an enormous number of different and interestingly named garments which a bishop may wear. I realize this is because he or she must take part in a large variety of services and ceremonials. But in your part of the world, what would your bishop wear during a solemn/high/formal celebration of mass and what would be worn during a choir or prayer service?
 

---

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:
There seems to be an enormous number of different and interestingly named garments which a bishop may wear. I realize this is because he or she must take part in a large variety of services and ceremonials. But in your part of the world, what would your bishop wear during a solemn/high/formal celebration of mass and what would be worn during a choir or prayer service?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:
There seems to be an enormous number of different and interestingly named garments which a bishop may wear. I realize this is because he or she must take part in a large variety of services and ceremonials. But in your part of the world, what would your bishop wear during a solemn/high/formal celebration of mass and what would be worn during a choir or prayer service?

---

In quire on ordinary days:

Cassock
Rochet
Chimere
Tippet

On feasts:

Cassock
Rochet
Cope
Mitre
Crozier

Low Mass:
(Cassock)
Amice
Alb
Girdle
Stole
Chasuble
(Skullcap)
(Biretta)

High Mass:
As for Low Mass but ith mitre and crosier.

Solemn Mass, and Ordinations

(Cassock)
Amice
Alb
Girdle
Stole
Pontifical Dalmatic
Chasuble
Mitre
Crosier

If the set of Mass vestments has a maniple I will use it.

+PD
 

---

Posted by pete173 (# 4622) on :
 
In places where they don't wear robes:

Doc Martens
Purple shirt, collar and cross
Leather waistcoat
Black denim trosers

In places where they baptise by full submersion:

Tee shirt
Shorts


 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by +Chad:
Badges are most commonly, 'though not exclusively, associated with Chaplaincy of some sort or Canonries.

British Forces Chaplains wear badges near the base of the tippet on both sides.

Army, Navy, Air Force.

I've seen come Canons tippets arranged thus, 'though Manchester has one badge at chest level on the right hand side. The badge is the Cathedral Arms seen here on the header to the website.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
It's Anglicanism - why should you think that? The only rules which there actually are, are that it shouldn't be adorned with anything (which is widely ignored) and the only DD's are entitled to silk. Beyond that... oh, who knows?

---

Tippet badges seem a little more prevailent in the USA than they are at home. The usual arrangement seems to be denominational or diocesan arms a short distance up from the bottom on the left side, and one's seminary's arms on the right. I was one of the very few in my old diocese in that did not display any tippet badges. That is mainly because I believe that a tippet should not be used for displaying medal ribbons, diocesan seals, or anything else of that ilk.

PD
 

---

Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
May I hold the tippet discussion just for a second?


What kind of headwear should one sport when donning a Geneva robe (the kind sold by Murphy's, not the German/European Talar one worn by all Reformers)? Or do they belong solely to the "no hats in church whatsoever" realm?

And what's the general opinion on wearing stoles over Geneva robes? (taking into account that Presbyterians won't be caught dead wearing chasubles and even in some places an alb+stole combo might be one's ticket to court...)

BTW, any ideas on how, where and when Presbies began wearing stoles over their robes? Seems to be a post-1950s thing, judging from the pics from the LIFE mag website...


And, on tippets again, I remember a pic of an Australian Presby guy wearing one over his robe with his Alma Mater's crest on it... How, when and why should a Presby wear a tippet instead of a stole?
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
A stole over a Geneva robe? Erm... gosh, if it's the local custom - some sort of combination of teaching role and priestly role?

But... it would look a little funny to my eyes and in terms of historical precedent be a bit barmy. So I'd not be recommending it myself!
 

---

Posted by Low Treason (# 11924) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Episcoterian:
May I hold the tippet discussion just for a second?


What kind of headwear should one sport when donning a Geneva robe (the kind sold by Murphy's, not the German/European Talar one worn by all Reformers)? Or do they belong solely to the "no hats in church whatsoever" realm?

And what's the general opinion on wearing stoles over Geneva robes? (taking into account that Presbyterians won't be caught dead wearing chasubles and even in some places an alb+stole combo might be one's ticket to court...)

BTW, any ideas on how, where and when Presbies began wearing stoles over their robes? Seems to be a post-1950s thing, judging from the pics from the LIFE mag website...

---

At the risk of courting disaster, I would suggest that as the stole is the symbol of a priest, and as a presbyterian minister is not a priest, then the wearing of a stole is as inapproprate as wearing a chasuble, (which is also the symbol of the priesthood).

However I'm quickly adding YMMV and running for cover...
 

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Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :
 
The stole and chasuble have only come to be seen as denoting priesthood in modern times.

Historical Lutheranism retained the chasuble but rejected the stole as 'priestly'.

Deacons and Bishops also wear stoles, while Deacons and Subdeacons wore chasubles (of a rather odd form) instead of dalmatic and tunicle during penitential seasons in the Roman Rite until modern times.
 

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Posted by +Chad (# 5645) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hare today:
Our Canons wear the Cathedral Arms (see +Chad's avatar) near the base of the tippet on each side.

Incidentaly, the Vergers wear the same Cathedral badge on one sleeve of their gown and the Guild of Vergers badge on the other.

---

Ah, you're in God's own Diocese?!
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
I would venture most ministers could not tell the different between a stole and a scarf. Though tartan stoles seem to be gaining popularity.

Around here the stole is a symbol of one's authority to preside at the Lord's Supper which is why they are used by ordained ministers, Presbytery chairs, Conference Presidents and the Moderator. The last three may preside at the Lord's Supper when celebrating for their respective court assemblies, whether lay or ordained.

Here is a picture of Mardi Tindal , the new (lay) Moderator of the United Church of Canada, celebrating the Lord's Supper for the 40th General Council with her predecessor, the Very Rev. David Giuliano. Note the very nice stole.
 

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Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
I was under the impression the robe + stole combo had become standard fare (and probably already a given) for MOTR and higher Presbyterians and Methodists.

I know of some Presbyterians venturing into alb + stole, or faking it in white Geneva robes. Methodists in chasuble are not unheard of, OTOH.

As a Presby seminarian myself (and who already inherited a Geneva robe from a Presby minister who dived the Thames), I have a soft spot for the black robe + stole look, but I may end up also getting an alb (probably this one) for those Brazilian summer days.

BTW, I found that Australian minister's pic, but the crests on the tippet are the denom's one, not his Alma Mater's. I don't know when would one wear it instead of a stole, though. Presbytery/Synod/GA assemblies?
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Around the UCCan Alb and Stole is the norm, with Robe and Stole as a second. With the advent of modern heating and the tendency to crank it up for the older members, robes get really hot.

During the slow summer months in non air-conditioned churches, which is most churches in Southern Ontario, many ministers will just wear clericals. It can get quite humid around here in July and August, though nothing like Brazil, of course.
 

---

Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
I am still researching on when did Reformed, Presbyterians, Methodists and Congregationals (oh yeah, and the odd Baptist) start hanging priestly stoles around their non-priestly necks.

The only new lead I got was this article hinting that the military chaplains started it during WW2 and it sort of caught on when they came back (last two pararaphs).

The one stating there is a print of John Knox wearing one got me baffled. Closest thing I managed to google was of him with a reddish thing over his neck, but IMO it's likely to be just his robe's fur lining, pretty much like what Calvin wore. This is replaced by the velvet panels on current American-design Geneva robes.

And the robe + stole phenomenon seems to be a (mostly) mainline American thing; European Reformed seem to do strictly black robe (German design) OR alb + stole. Don't know what Kirk, URC and the free church guys and gals wear in Britain, though. Can anyone enlighten us? What about the United/Uniting (and their non-uniting counterparts) peeps around the globe?

And what about the headgear to go with it? Modern academic caps? A biretta? A Canterbury cap? A simple beret?
 

---

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
In British Methodism some, but by no means all, presbyters wear stoles. Of those that do, you can see them worn over alb, cassock (generally, but not exclusively black) or cassock + gown. Methodism being Methodism there are bound to be other permutations too.

As a probationer, I don't wear the stole but I do wear an alb on appropriate occasions.
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
I've never seen a minster wear a hat to lead a service in the UCCan. The only picture of a hatted minister I have ever seen was Rev. Lydia Gruchy in 1936, who wore a Canterbury cap to preach along with Geneva gown and stole.

You're probably right about the military increasing use of the stole. This may have affected Canada earlier since we entered WWI in 1914.
 

---

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
Tat inquiry about TEC and Anglicanism in general:

What's up with the crozier in Anglican liturgies with a bishop present? One never seems to see the same practice twice. I was watching the Ash Wednesday Eucharist from Washington National Cathedral, and Bishop Chane hardly seems to let go of his crozier. I'm not accustomed to croziers at all, but it seems odd for a bishop to hold it during a prayer, unless it is a prayer of blessing.

In the past, were there any well-established rules, or has it always been a free-for-all.
 

---

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
?

[pardon my punctuation]

Another tat inquiry:
If anybody has seen the Ash Wednesday liturgy from the National Cathedral, is it usual for bishops to preside at the Great Thanksgiving wearing what Bishop Chane wore?

[ 26. February 2010, 00:36: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
Tat inquiry about TEC and Anglicanism in general:

What's up with the crozier in Anglican liturgies with a bishop present? One never seems to see the same practice twice. I was watching the Ash Wednesday Eucharist from Washington National Cathedral, and Bishop Chane hardly seems to let go of his crozier. I'm not accustomed to croziers at all, but it seems odd for a bishop to hold it during a prayer, unless it is a prayer of blessing.

In the past, were there any well-established rules, or has it always been a free-for-all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
That would be a fair summary of what I do with my crozier, but I may just be adding another personal variant on the theme.

PD

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
Bishop Chane ... he tends to hold on tight to his crozier all the way through the Entrance Rite. I'm surprised he didn't "dress for dinner," but instead wore rochet and chimere with a violet stole on top.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
In most of the parishes I am familiar with, the members of the congregation generally don't kneel for the bishops blessing. However, it pays to keep your eye out for the one or two who do. There is an outside chance you might make someone's day.

PD

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChaliceGirl:
I didn't know the crozier had to be in the left hand- I never noticed that!

I've seen people in the Anglican/Episcopal church make a slight bow when a bishop passes by as a sign of respect. I've never seen kneeling.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Episcoterian:
I am still researching on when did Reformed, Presbyterians, Methodists and Congregationals (oh yeah, and the odd Baptist) start hanging priestly stoles around their non-priestly necks.

The only new lead I got was this article hinting that the military chaplains started it during WW2 and it sort of caught on when they came back (last two pararaphs).

The one stating there is a print of John Knox wearing one got me baffled. Closest thing I managed to google was of him with a reddish thing over his neck, but IMO it's likely to be just his robe's fur lining, pretty much like what Calvin wore. This is replaced by the velvet panels on current American-design Geneva robes.

And the robe + stole phenomenon seems to be a (mostly) mainline American thing; European Reformed seem to do strictly black robe (German design) OR alb + stole. Don't know what Kirk, URC and the free church guys and gals wear in Britain, though. Can anyone enlighten us? What about the United/Uniting (and their non-uniting counterparts) peeps around the globe?

And what about the headgear to go with it? Modern academic caps? A biretta? A Canterbury cap? A simple beret?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by highchurc:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChaliceGirl:
I didn't know the crozier had to be in the left hand- I never noticed that!

I've seen people in the Anglican/Episcopal church make a slight bow when a bishop passes by as a sign of respect. I've never seen kneeling.

---

The crozier is held in the left hand thus freeing the right hand for blessing.

Discerning Episcopalians genuflect on the left knee to the bishop; the right knee, of course, is saved for the Blesséd Sacrament.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Magic Wand:
...no approved author indicates any sort of left-knee genuflection, for bishops, the cross of the altar, or anything else.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
At All Saints Margaret Street one of the ceremonial boffins instructed us to do a left knee genuflection to the Archbp of Canterbury at the time of his visitation last All Saints day; IME this is not done in respect to other bishops visiting that parish.

---

Maybe they knelt on the left because they know he's not right...
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by highchurc:

A left knee genuflection is usual towards a bishop, however, in some Anglican Parishes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Whitworth
Perhaps there is something else to put on other than a cotta or surplice. What about a rochet? Not the lacy kind with the red sleeves, but rather a winged or a sleeved rochet. A simple sleeved rochet may be nice under a cope especially at a baptism, and maybe a winged rochet could be worn at other times outside of choir?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Whitworth:
St. Percy does make mention of the winged and sleeved rochet in the handbook.

---

And the sleeveless rochet as well - very useful for thurifers...
 

---

Posted by Whitworth (# 12579) on :
 
I prefer the Gothic/Sarum style; I'm just considering alternatives to always wearing the full surplice.
 

---

Posted by Whitworth (# 12579) on :
 
With the brain power on this ship this should be an easy question for some.

Is anyone aware of about when Rose vestments began to be used and where they originated?
 

---

Posted by Whitworth (# 12579) on :
 
I don’t believe one would use Lenten array and Rose together. I suppose in the English tradition one would continue with ashen white for Laetare Sunday until Passion Sunday when Passion-Tide Red would be worn?
 

---

Posted by nowsouthwest (# 14600) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Whitworth:
With the brain power on this ship this should be an easy question for some.

Is anyone aware of about when Rose vestments began to be used and where they originated?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I don’t believe one would use Lenten array and Rose together. I suppose in the English tradition one would continue with ashen white for Laetare Sunday until Passion Sunday when Passion-Tide Red would be worn?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by nowsouthwest:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Whitworth:
With the brain power on this ship this should be an easy question for some.

Is anyone aware of about when Rose vestments began to be used and where they originated?

---

According to Latin Mass Society, Rose Vestments were first prescribed by Caerimoniale Episcoporum which is dated by Google Books as published in 1606.

---

Nice answer!... And good to have you on board
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Also, thanks for the reminder to get the Passiontide Red out of the sacristy bottom draw! I forgot to do that one year and found the set we use for the martyrs and Pentecost on the altar instead - it was way toobright for Passionide.

PD
 

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Posted by Evanglion (# 15526) on :
 
A request for advice from all Tat Experts.
Our Stations of the Cross have faded almost to nothing - they were never very good anyway! Consequently we wish to replace them. Our spec is: about 12" x 9" in size, traditional in design, fitting for a medieval Grade 1 Listed church and sourced within the EU (otherwise the import taxes tend to be high).
We are looking at ceramics at the moment but any advice would be gratefully accepted.
 

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Posted by nowsouthwest (# 14600) on :
 
It's good to be here and finally getting round to posting a bit more!

PD, if only we had Passiontide Red in any of my churches - but that's another matter...

[Code fix & duplicate post deletion, T², Eccles Host]

[ 18. March 2010, 18:35: Message edited by: Think² ]
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by nowsouthwest:
It's good to be here and finally getting round to posting a bit more!

PD, if only we had Passiontide Red in any of my churches - but that's another matter...

[Code fix & duplicate post deletion, T², Eccles Host]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted on the Random Questions Thread by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
Quick photo question: does this chap's vesture seem familiar to Eccolytes? Or, what exactly is he wearing? I can see a stole, but is that a chasuble underneath?

(I got it from the official site of the Spanish Reformed Episcopal Church. Subject of the photo is their first bishop, Juan Bautista Cabrera).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, at first sight it looks to be a nice flowing surplice - but there's what appears to be a bit of lacy cotta (?) beneath......



Ian J.

---

Exactly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
Looks to me like an oddly designed cope or degree gown over the top of a cotta. It is rather like the garments worn by the front row here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CJ:
A bizarre piece of tat I'd never seen before appeared at evensong this evening - a shoulder cape made of (fake, though convincing) fur which I was told was a prebendery's amice. I was very confused but I seem to have misheard for on searching I find it was probably an almuce.

This was shorter than those shown in the link but did have the same tails hanging down. Very bizarre looking object indeed.

Has anyone come across this in an Anglican setting before? This was just a village church evensong - though festal both for Pentecost and as a celebration of 25 years of Reader ministry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mamacita:
Copied from the Random Questions thread:

quote:

---

Originally posted by CJ:
A bizarre piece of tat I'd never seen before appeared at evensong this evening - a shoulder cape made of (fake, though convincing) fur which I was told was a prebendery's amice. I was very confused but I seem to have misheard for on searching I find it was probably an almuce.

This was shorter than those shown in the link but did have the same tails hanging down. Very bizarre looking object indeed.

Has anyone come across this in an Anglican setting before? This was just a village church evensong - though festal both for Pentecost and as a celebration of 25 years of Reader ministry.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
Looks to me like an oddly designed cope or degree gown over the top of a cotta. It is rather like the garments worn by the front row here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
Your guess is correct. Blue ornamentation on Lenten array is not unknown, with nice examples at Newcastle Cathedral and Westminster Abbey, although red and black is probably slightly more common.

Get them back into use as soon as possible!

SS

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
Are they attractive?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
Why were they hidden away in the first place?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
And what is the view of your current priest?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:
fiddleback vs gothic?

What, if anything is the significance of the style? Is there a Roman/English/Sarum split?

---

quote:

---

Pre or post Vatican II?

---

quote:

---

High or higher?

---

quote:

---

Should the shape of you chasuble relate to the shape of your windows?

---

quote:

---

If you were equipping a church from scratch, which would you buy?

---

quote:

---

Which make the baby Jesus cry?

---

quote:

---

What gives, chasuble-wise?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sebby:
Forgive an ignorant and rather low church question:

I have a colleague who is an Anglican clergyman who likes to wear surplice (long) and scarf when celebrating Holy Communion. As a former military chaplain his scarf has medal ribbons on it (I remember many such scarves in my youth when a WW2 clergy was common). Are there still evngelical/low church CofE churches where this would be thororoughly acceptable still? (I understand many do not wear robes any more).

Similarly, the same person has a penchant for his gown (bit like Wesley) and is sometimes invited to preach in Free Churches. Would it be accpetable to rock up, don the gown and preach? He might get away with robing as he was a guest Anglican. (I know of one cleric who wore surplice sarf and hood when preaching on the local methodist circuit and was, indeed, encouraged to do so).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sebby:
An additolnal question (if I may?). If a clergyman is of the school that wears a clerical collar pretty much all the time, what if he/she attends an evangelical church in the congregation where this is worn rarely even by the person officiating? Presumably, as an item of personal attire this is the choice of the individual, rather like choosing the colour of one's own tie and it would be bad form for someone to comment about it?

---

I went to preach (as part of a week of prayer for Christian Unity pulpit exchange) in a local baptist church (I'm a Methodist minister). I would normally robe to conduct Methodist services. Going there, I wore clericals but not robes. That to me seemed an appropriate balance between being who I am and being respectful of the traditions of my hosts. The only comment was from a young girl (guess about 6) who asked what that was around my neck.
 

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Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
My question related to a minister who always wears a clerical collar as everyday attire (and claims never to have owned a tie since his ordination) sitting in the congregation of a non clericals wearing church as a visitng member of the congregation. For example being in London and attending St Helens Bishopsgate out of choice. I did certainly know of an evangelical Anglican cleric (admittedly elderly) who ALWAYS wore a collar and dark suit every day till his recent death at 99. He would sit in the congregation of local pentecostal church likr that. Apparetly he was usually invited up to the platform.
 

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Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
A question on cassocks: what fabric do others, from experience, find best for keeping cool during the warmer months? It turns out a black, Russian cassock of wool isn't designed for a British summer. Who'd a thunk it?

Are cotton or viscose about the same or does one have any advantage over the other?

Ta muchly.
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
Presumably you could use linen ? Pure, natural etc.
 

---

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
That is actualy one of the options. With the company I use for these things, there are various grades of wool, then cotton, viscose, and linen. I suppose I want to balance the fabric's quality of keeping cool with opaqueness as well and I suspect linen might be a bit too see-through. Then again, the fact that they sell them means it perhaps isn't as much of a problem as I might have thought. I wonder whether they'll send me a swatch.
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Astley:
A question on cassocks: what fabric do others, from experience, find best for keeping cool during the warmer months? It turns out a black, Russian cassock of wool isn't designed for a British summer. Who'd a thunk it?

---

I think the answer is 'move to Ireland'.
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
I would tend towards towards a poly-cotton blend that is heavy on the cotton. It breaths well, but due to the presence of some "poly" is easier keep presentable. Some sort of viscose mix is good alternative as it has similar washing and wearing characteristics. The main thing is that anything you get for summer needs to be readily washable.

PD

[ 12. July 2010, 00:17: Message edited by: PD ]
 

---

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Astley:
A question on cassocks: what fabric do others, from experience, find best for keeping cool during the warmer months? It turns out a black, Russian cassock of wool isn't designed for a British summer. Who'd a thunk it?

---

I think the answer is 'move to Ireland'.

---

Why on earth would anybody want to do a thing like that?

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
I would tend towards towards a poly-cotton blend that is heavy on the cotton. It breaths well, but due to the presence of some "poly" is easier keep presentable. Some sort of viscose mix is good alternative as it has similar washing and wearing characteristics. The main thing is that anything you get for summer needs to be readily washable.

---

Thank you for this, PD. A blend with polyester isn't an option for me. You see, the order has been placed. I may at this point still be able to ask for a different fabric from that originally ordered but polyester or any poly blend isn't among what's available. My parish priest's everyday cassock is pure cotton, in dark grey, and it always looks presentable so I'm not too worried about that. Mine will likely be viscose, and certainly light grey, because I simply can't bear the heat anymore. I may have grown up in the tropics but it seems I'm designed for the usual climate of the land of my birth.
 

---

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Astley:
Why on earth would anybody want to do a thing like that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RCD:
I'm trying to find pictures of the Almuce and I ran across this:

http://thefarsight2.blogspot.com/2008/12/this-just-in.html

I was curious - is the striped fur an almuce, or just a fur covered cape? Initially I was thinking it was just like the "cappa magna" with a fur covered hood/chaperon, but then I saw this picture:

http://www.abbaye-de-leffe.be/SITES/abbaye-de-leffe.be/IMG/jpg/107.jpg

of a Norbertine, which made me wonder if those canons were also wearing an almuce.

---

quote:

---

In Anglican liturgical thinking, what accounts for the difference in colour in the cassocks for servers? In some parishes, servers wear black cassocks, and in others, they wear red cassocks.

---

quote:

---

If they are willing to risk summary execution and/or time spent at Her Majesty's Pleasure in the Tower of London, they will wear scarlet cassocks. I don't know the standard punishment for the outfitters who supply such things.

---

quote:

---

I think red is for a royal foundation, blue for a minster foundation, black for everyone else.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by +Chad:


(Red being an affectation along with bum-freezer lace cottas.)

---

Both of which were in evidence, if I observed correctly, at All Saints North St, York, last night. But I may be wrong- didn't get a very good look because I left after the confession with a strong feeling that this really wasn't going to be my sort of thing at all.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Transferred from another thread, with particularly good timing :

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dallasverger:
Recently, our parish priests have ordered Emerald Green Cassocks. Does anybody know the litergical reason?

---

 

---

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
Who are the cassocks for? Clergy, choir, servers or someone else? What were you using previously?

[ 25. August 2010, 15:55: Message edited by: Spike ]
 

---

Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :
 
As long as they're also getting red, white/gold, and purple/blue cassocks for the other liturgical seasons (pink are optional)
 

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Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by follower:
When is it ok for a chior to wear red instead of the usual blue (I'm talking about non-catheadral chiors)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by +Chad:
(Red being an affectation along with bum-freezer lace cottas.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laud-able:
Oscar:

You might begin with Luzar Vestments. They carry stocks of new and second-hand vestments, and will make to order: they created a splendid high mass set for us with great care and attention to detail, using the specified Perkins fabrics and trim.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clerach:
A simple question really. THough I am sure it could be in the dead horse section...

Surplice (Round Yoked):

How Long from the hem of the cassock?
How long or short from the cuff?
Pointed or Rounded or Belled if that is still something different?
Gathering F M or hardly?
And preferred maker?
Thin or thick yoke?

Ideas or recommendations in general?

peace,
clerach

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
Back to the discussion of gowns and stoles, if I may: the custom of wearing a stole with the Geneva gown began here in the States sometime in the Fifties. It became particularly ubiquitous among Methodist clergy, but it also saw it occasionally in Congregational/UCC circles. In more recent years, I have occasionally seen the combination worn by Presbyterians and even some Baptists. The gown has been somewhat displaced by the cassock-alb, especially among Methodists, but it remains the norm in the other denominational bodies. As a Congregationalist, it makes me cringe to see a Congregational minister wear an alb; in my view, it has no place in the Reformed tradition. I even have reservations about the stole. It has always been my understanding that it has sacerdotal connotations that run counter to the Reformed concept of ordination. Does anyone out there care to comment on this?

---

quote:

---

Do any shipmates know of clergy (or maybe others) who wear Warham Guild hoods? These are the cowl shaped medieval looking ones extolled by Percy Dearmer.

Why are they that shape?

The vicar in my local church used to wear one a number of years ago, and one was spotted in the Gloucester diocese recently.

---

 

---

Posted by +Chad (# 5645) on :
 
The garment in question is here.

The Warham Guild hood is an attempt to get back to the earlier/original shape. The hood was adapted to fit over the heads of clergy when they started to wear wigs.

Judges still wear the old-style hood and tippet when in 'full-fig'.

I know a couple of laymen and a couple of clergy who have them, and one who is about to buy one - to go with my recently-acquired Warham Guild surplice.

[ 18. December 2010, 18:43: Message edited by: +Chad ]
 

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Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :
 
I am pleased to say that the only hoods I have ever worn in 33 years of ministry have been of the Warham Guild pattern. I left College without a degree, but acquired a College 'survival hood' (!) as a memento of having endured 12 terms in that place. As a Deacon I wore it at a Methodist 'Welcome Service' for a new minister: the Stewards were most solicitous, addressing me as 'Monsignore'!

On earning a degree years later I never invested in a hood relating to my newly acquired qualification since I hoped it would be soon be superseded by the garb of the Masters on which I immediately embarked. My relaunched academic career ran aground at that point, and for the last six years my ministry has been totally Eucharistic, so my 'choir dress' hasn't been worn for a long time.
 

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Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
Did you wear it with black scarf?

Are such hoods regarded as 'high church'?
 

---

Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sebby:
Did you wear it with black scarf?

Are such hoods regarded as 'high church'?

---

I confess to the occasional sin of local custom. Yes, they are regarded as 'high church' (and perversely obscurantist!): worn over rochet or cotta and accompanied by a biretta they can cut a marvellously humble while faintly exotic dash in those kinds of church procession which tend to look like an explosion in a tinsel factory.

In very Anglican contexts I would indeed wear it with a full English surplice, and a black scarf. I never expected to wear the scarf that often, so my 90p secondhand one bought from 'Pax House' in Ipswich prior to ordination has lasted the whole of my ministry. When I am canonised, it will make an excellent relic.
 

---

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
On the English Missal Services in London thread, mention was made of folded chasubles (image here) . Georgiaboy then posted:

quote:

---

The folded chas at ordination (in the Extr Rite) is a temporary affair, the back being hitched up.
The folded chas for the D & SD in Advent & Lent (pre-PiusXII) are a permanently folded-up-in-front confection. Standing ad orientam the 3 ministers usually look exactly alike to the congo.
The reasons for the folding-up and for the D's 'broad stole' (which is not a stole) are too arcane and complicated for me to rehearse here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ahleal V on another thread:
Does anyone know if a Canterbury Cap "should" have a liturgical use, or is it merely something to be worn to warm the head in chilly weather? I've never actually seen one in the wild, so to speak, and the only place I've ever seen birettas is in Bourne Street.

Should one presume a good traddy Anglo-Catholic would just read Canterbury Cap in the place of a birretta in the rubrics for whichever version of Ritual Notes etc one might use?

Of course, I say "should" and "know" with the understanding that all these things are within the nice broad realms of 'custom' and 'local use', and the 'Western Rite' and 'British Museum Religion' etc

AV

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
One of our former priests used to wear a skull cap during services. It looked like a jewish cap, or the one the pope wears. I've not seen it worn in other Anglican churches - how usual is it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
One of our former priests used to wear a skull cap during services. It looked like a jewish cap, or the one the pope wears. I've not seen it worn in other Anglican churches - how usual is it?

---

Here's an old thread about priestly zuchetti, for your entertainment.
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
You have an amazing memory, Mamacita - thankyou.
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Around my way you might occasionally find a bishop wearing a zuchetto to celebrate Mass. Otherwise, they seem to be worn outside of service time by elderly clerics whose heads get cold easily.

PD
 

---

Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on :
 
I know more than one Protestant cleric who wears a Canterbury cap with pulpit gown and academic hood for baccalaureate services, graduations, and so forth --- specifically academic occasions.
 

---

Posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known (# 11399) on :
 
Is it exclusive to clergy, or can crazy laics such as yours truly wear a Canterbury cap, too? I would like to wear one with my MA gown after my viva.

And I'd like a Warham Guild hood, too!

[ 01. February 2011, 06:06: Message edited by: Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known ]
 

---

Posted by Pommie Mick (# 12794) on :
 
Its the stole that has the sacerdotal connotations. The alb is simply the baptismal garment which any baptized Christian is entitled to wear.
 

---

Posted by otyetsfoma (# 12898) on :
 
A "John Knox Cap" is the appropriate headgear for PhDs from Heriot Watt Uni. When my daughter needed one I lent her my canterbury cap and no one noticed the difference.
 

---

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Copied from another thread:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jmoskal:

Sorry if this has been answered but I searched and couldnt find it.

For Choir Dress is it appropriate for a permanent deacon to wear an undergraduate hood if that is the only one they have and in a field other than theology(business)?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

Perfectly kosher. I have seen a curate with a speech therapy hood, and an organist with her MB.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mamacita:

It appears the question is answered, however, I'm going to copy these posts over to The Tatler, our long-running conversation about vestments and such, in case anyone has additional comments to offer.


Mamacita, Eccles Host

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jmoskal:

For Choir Dress is it appropriate for a permanent deacon to wear an undergraduate hood if that is the only one they have and in a field other than theology(business)?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mimmi:
Saturno or Capello Romano

Two (and a bit) questions, please;

1) Wikepedia says worn with the cassock - so I guess not by clergy in suits. Is that right? and if so what does the priest wear on his head if he is wearing a black suit?

and

2) Anyone know an online Saturno supplier? (!)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clavus:
Barbiconi saturno

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wesleyan:

I'm in the market for new vestments. I'm a pastor in the UMC in the Southeast. The norm around here is the black pulpit robe. (At Annual Conference last year, there were exactly two people in albs.) Here's the trick: I'm about to be awarded a PhD in theology. So I want the opinion of the shipmates: are marks on a pulpit robe that denote academic achievement in a theological field appropriate in the leadership of worship? There's part of me that is proud to finally be getting this degree (after 7 years of work), but then part of me says that this is *exactly* the reason why I shouldn't get any marks of the degree on new vestments. What to do?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lily pad:

What kind of a question is that? Of course you get the bars. Duh. You earned them. You wear them proudly. That kind of pride is just fine in church circles. Just, live up to them and don't say too many stupid things when you are wearing that gown, k?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wesleyan:

There's part of me that is proud to finally be getting this degree (after 7 years of work), but then part of me says that this is *exactly* the reason why I shouldn't get any marks of the degree on new vestments. What to do?

---

I'll be the voice of dissent here. For context, I'm a Presbyterian (also in the Southeast), so I'm very used to an emphasis on an educated clergy and on the teaching role of the minister.

I would probably listen to the part of you that says being proud of earning the degree is why you shouldn't get them. I tend to look a little askance at ministers who insist on doctoral stripes on their robes (especially if they are scarlet rather than black). Fairly or unfairly, it just comes across to me as potentially pretentious. I know from conversations that I am not alone in this.

At least in a Presbyterian context, Geneva gowns and stoles are the norm, with albs and stoles not being uncommon either. I haven't done a study of it, but it does seem like doctoral stripes aren't seen as often as they once were on those entitled to them -- there seems to be a trend toward Geneva gowns that look a little less like academic gowns. (Though we still use closed-front Geneva gowns. I'd much prefer the Scottish veted style, but nobody asked me.) And I can't think of the last time I saw a hood.

All of that said, I'd probably look at what the norm in your Annual Conference is and follow that. Or see what your DS thinks.

[ 23. February 2011, 19:20: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
 

---

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
On another forum where I post (yes, they doe exist ) specifically for Anglican Readers, someone has posted a link to a "Reader's Stole" that was recently sold on ebay. None of us on the forum has ever come across such a garment and think it may possibly be a Roman Catholic vestment. It can be seen here (You'll need to scroll down to see it properly).

Has anyone any idea what this is and where/when it would be worn and by whom?
 

---

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 
In a former position, I occasionally wore my master's hood over cassock and surplice at the organ. Some in the congregation probably muttered behind my back about that; but part of my reasoning was that, inasmuch as the robes worn by the senior choir *all* included fake academic hoods, they couldn't reasonably object to a real one.
 

---

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spike:
On another forum where I post (yes, they doe exist ) specifically for Anglican Readers, someone has posted a link to a "Reader's Stole" that was recently sold on ebay. None of us on the forum has ever come across such a garment and think it may possibly be a Roman Catholic vestment. It can be seen here (You'll need to scroll down to see it properly).

Has anyone any idea what this is and where/when it would be worn and by whom?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spike:
... a link to a "Reader's Stole" that was recently sold on ebay. None of us on the forum has ever come across such a garment and think it may possibly be a Roman Catholic vestment. It can be seen here (You'll need to scroll down to see it properly).

Has anyone any idea what this is and where/when it would be worn and by whom?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurence:
I've just got back from a holiday in the Nether Regions and Germany, and I was intrigued to note that pictures of the auxiliary bishops of Aachen appeared to show them wearing ordinary white open-necked turn-down collars over what I could only describe as black wooly jumpers, with grey business suits on top.

There's an example of what I mean on this page: German bishops looking casual

The diocesan bishops were by contrast wearing full Roman bishoply attire- cassock, red buttons, shoulder-cape, pectoral cross.

Now is this a specifically German version of clerical dress? Is it something that auxiliary bishops do? And does the diocesan bishop get to go in the Tat Cupboard first and nab all the nice stuff?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:
The collars look very much like those of the Fathers of the Oratory.

---

Yes, that was one of my thoughts- are all these bishops Oratorians? I think the German collars hang down a bit lower that the Oratorian ones. And they don't seem to be worn with cassocks either. Does anyone know when the fashion grew up?
 

---

Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :
 
Help! It seems as though I may have promised to crochet a feriola, during a slightly boozy evening at a clergy conference.

What the heck is a feriola? Google is not my friend! And apparantly, neither is wine.
 

---

Posted by aredstatemystic (# 11577) on :
 
A ferriola is a short shoulder cape for a cassock, I believe. I think it is usually black.

Whatever it is, next time you drink, invite me to come! It sounds like it was my kind of party!
 

---

Posted by Peter's Bark (# 16074) on :
 
It's a voluminous ankle-length cape. Google 'ferraiolo' if you wish to see some examples. They are usually made of silk or wool. I would not have thought it possible to crochet one. If you do, the wearer will certainly stand out! Good luck.
 

---

Posted by The Man with a Stick (# 12664) on :
 
Ferriola - Short and elbow length
Ferriolone - Long ankle-length cape
 

---

Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :
 
Ah, thank you all! I think I'm going to have to be humble and back down on this one. Unless I could buy a ferriola and crochet a lace edging. Possibly with a grape motif.

Thing is, I think she'd wear it. The first time I met this priest, she was wearing what I think is a capello. I called it a frisbee.
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
I *think* this fits here.

We have some old church light fittings sitting in the garage - the sort that you see in lots of the Victorian churches around, rings of metal suspended from the roof on chains, with downlighters arranged on the ring. Is there any way of getting in contact with other churches which could make use of them?
 

---

Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :
 
Our Diocesan newsletter has 'free to a good home' pieces for things like that.
 

---

Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :
 
Missed edit time - or you could contact your Diocesan church buildings officer - they may know of churches that might want such things.
 

---

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
I forgot to put up these links that Tatlerites might be interested in last week.

Here's an interview with our liturgical seamstress. And here are the new vestments she made for our ordinandi.
 

---

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
From another thread:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Weary Pilgrim:
I don't own a cassock alb, but I know quite a few clergy (of various denominations) who do have one.
I've noticed, from time to time, a very distinct thread of prejudice against them that weaves around the masts of the SOF. Succinctly, and without bringing up something that may be a Dead Horse, what are the principal objections? I'm just curious.

(I have two reasons for not wearing such: I think they're totally out of place in my own [Congregational] tradition, and as one who bears not-inconsiderable avoirdupois, I'd look like a giant marshmallow in one.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Everyone looks like a giant marshmallow in one. They have no history. They like any other polyester piece of cr*p was simply made to be sold.

I hate them because they are pseudo-monkish, that is they look like they were based on a Hollywood or high school drama coach's idea of a monks habit rather than anything remotely associated with the Eucharist in the past 2000 years. Eucharistic vestments evolved from the clothes of the Roman Empire and have been imbued with symbolic meaning ever since they dropped out of street fashion. Cassock-albs were, again, simply invented to be sold.

And the needlessly ginormous sleeves would prevent me from making the traditional manual acts that is possible in a wrist-fitting alb.

Also if you're in areas without much water or electricity, they are absurd. The traditional vestments can be worn for a very long time if you hang them out to dry and all you have to do is wash the tiny amice. Very practical.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican Brat:
Cassock-albs make sense if you are late for Divine Service and don't have time to button two pieces of clothing (cassock and alb).

But then I prefer an alb be treated strictly as an undergarment under the chasuble. If a priest is assisting or simply preaching at Divine Service, he or she should be vested in a surplice and stole. So, in my view, the good thing about a cassock-alb in a proper Divine Service is that it is hidden under a chasuble.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Eucharistic vestments evolved from the clothes of the Roman Empire and have been imbued with symbolic meaning ever since they dropped out of street fashion.

---

And, presumably, the cassock-alb evolved from that.

quote:

---

And the needlessly ginormous sleeves would prevent me from making the traditional manual acts that is possible in a wrist-fitting alb.

---

Not all cassock-albs have big sleeves. I've seen quite a lot with narrow sleeves. As for being "pseudo-monkish", they don't all have hoods either.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Huts:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Everyone looks like a giant marshmallow in one. They have no history. They like any other polyester piece of cr*p was simply made to be sold.

---

So if this is the case why are clergy made to wear them for their priesting's (with stole). Down in our South Coast UK Anglo-Catholic diocese they must be worn.

If they have no history why don't people just wear cassock and surplice - I always assumed it was a theological thing that being low church I didn't understand.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Huts, your diocese requires the cassock-alb, as opposed to simply an alb or as an optional alternative the cassock-alb????

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
That would have been a problem for me as I do not like cassock-albs and did not possess one until I moved to Arizona. It was traditional alb for my ordination to the diaconate and cassock surplice and tippet for my priesting. Different bishops; different dioceses. I ask ordinands to wear cassock, surplice and have a stole handy as that seems to be the unblameable middle way.

PD

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Holding:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Eucharistic vestments evolved from the clothes of the Roman Empire and have been imbued with symbolic meaning ever since they dropped out of street fashion.

---

And, presumably, the cassock-alb evolved from that.

---

Ah...the Empire's new clothes!

John

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I nominate the topic of the cassock-alb for the first ever DH thread from Ecclesiantics. Surely it meets the criteria for a dead equine.

I am absolutely serious. How cool would it be for an Eccles issue to make it into Dead Horses?!?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
I used to hate fiddlebacks, but then I moved to Arizona!

Our church has swamp coolers rather than A-C. This is OK aparts from a nasty few weeks at the end of June beginning of July every year when the temperature and humidity are somewhat reminescent of Alabama. That is when even an ardent Dearmerite begins to appreciate the fiddleback chasuble!

PD

---

quote:

---

Is it possible that fiddlebacks actually evolved in response to summer weather in southern Europe and Latin America?

---

That is probably one reason, though I don't know if it is the only reason. Another is that the development of the chasuble into the fiddleback form coincided with the increasing prevalence of the 'private mass' (a mass celebrated by the priest alone and without servers to help the priest manipulate the vestments, thus requiring greater freedom of movement for the celebrant).

I happen to own one not-very-nice fiddleback, which I have never worn. A big issue with the reintroduction of fiddleback vestments is that they look plain foolish when celebrating facing the people. Precious few Catholics and Anglicans (outside of nosebleed land) celebrate facing east.
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
The chaplain at my college used to wear Fiddlebacks that were the Spanish cut - i.e. no "keyhole" in front, so they looked OK when he was celebrating VP. My church, which is far from nosebleed, celebrates facing East, so how they look over the counter is not an issue for us.

PD

(ed: silly typo)

[ 03. June 2011, 16:56: Message edited by: PD ]
 

---

Posted by Low Treason (# 11924) on :
 
A clerical acquaintance who is much given to Fresh Expressions™ once opined that fiddle-backs are far superior to gothic chazzies because they make it so much easier to sit on the floor cross-legged whilst wearing them...
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Copied from leo's thread on 'Albs with Buttons':

quote:

---

Can there be such a thing? Our visiting priest this morning wore a cassock-alb with buttons all the way down - like a white cassock and quite unlike those old-fashioned albs which simply had a top button.

---

(It wasn't the Pope was it??? )
 

---

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
I too have seen people with these white garments buttoned all the way down the front. I wondered if the wearer harboured papal ambitions...
 

---

Posted by Low Treason (# 11924) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Copied from leo's thread on 'Albs with Buttons':

quote:

---

Can there be such a thing? Our visiting priest this morning wore a cassock-alb with buttons all the way down - like a white cassock and quite unlike those old-fashioned albs which simply had a top button.

---

(It wasn't the Pope was it??? )

---

Hhmmm... did he speek vis a Schermenn eccendt?
 

---

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
Never seen an alb with buttons, but I have seen white cassocks. In fact, my community's mission habit has a white cassock as part of it, as does that of the White Fathers.

My cassock was once returned from the cleaners with "alb -- black" printed on the receipt.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by seasick:
I too have seen people with these white garments buttoned all the way down the front. I wondered if the wearer harboured papal ambitions...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
By a host losing/amalgamating my question, I fear there will never be an answer.

---

quote:

---

Mamacita asked:
Was it something like this, leo?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mamacita:
Was it something like this, leo?

---

Yes....except that it had a hood similar to the one on my cassock-alb.

[ 07. June 2011, 16:33: Message edited by: leo ]
 

---

Posted by Mrs Goggins (# 16404) on :
 
Canon's hats (biretta)

What is the colour of the pom pom?
If red, what shade?

A link to one would be very welcome
 

---

Posted by Sacred London (# 15220) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mrs Goggins:
Canon's hats (biretta)

What is the colour of the pom pom?
If red, what shade?

A link to one would be very welcome

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mrs Goggins:
Thank you Sacred London. Very helpful.

I thought, until you gave that link, that that would be a bishop's biretta. So is a bishop's not black with a pom pom?

I saw a canon in a Cathedral (I am talking here about C of E) with red buttons on his cassock, I take it the pom pom matches that red. If they wear a sash is that all the same red or just edged in red.
(Again if a kind soul could link to a photo that would be great).

---

http://www.wattsandco.com/clerical-wear/canons-wear/canons-cassock.html
 

---

Posted by Mrs Goggins (# 16404) on :
 
Sacred London thanks again.

Thanks too to a private message pointing me to another website.

Is this garment from that website a canon's?

And what about a canon's skullcap is that black or another colour?
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Erm, why so interested?

Is Mr. Goggins a Canon?
 

---

Posted by Mrs Goggins (# 16404) on :
 
No Mr Goggins isn't!

I've seen some canons with piping on their cassocks. I wondered how far the change of colour went. Hat / sash and so on.

I also was confused as I thought some of this was bishop's regalia and not canons.

And so I looked here for help
 

---

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
For Anglican parishes with a decidedly low-church bent, what exactly would their servers wear? I was a bit surprised when I saw a picture of a server wearing a cotta and a cassock at a low Anglican Church. Considering, the historical antipathy of low Anglicans to Rome, I would expect that they would not be thrilled in having their servers in Roman-like robes.
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mrs Goggins:
No Mr Goggins isn't!

I've seen some canons with piping on their cassocks. I wondered how far the change of colour went. Hat / sash and so on.

I also was confused as I thought some of this was bishop's regalia and not canons.

And so I looked here for help

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
For Anglican parishes with a decidedly low-church bent, what exactly would their servers wear? I was a bit surprised when I saw a picture of a server wearing a cotta and a cassock at a low Anglican Church. Considering, the historical antipathy of low Anglicans to Rome, I would expect that they would not be thrilled in having their servers in Roman-like robes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mrs Goggins:
Socks.

Have bishops worn purple socks?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
Although I am late in responding, I believe that non-papal white cassocks are a concession to tropical heat and humidity. The first one I encountered was worn by a priest who had recently returned from service as a chaplain in Vietnam.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
Instead I wear rochet and red chimere at diocesan council, which seems to make the point.

PD

---

I was under the impression that once the scarlet chimere was only worn by Bishops who had been admitted to a Doctor's degree (viz the Oxford Doctor's Convocation robes). I do think it is a shame that the distinction had been lost.
 

---

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
I wonder who might choose to wear a collar and chain? Unless we're deeply into po-mo irony, it's a new one on me.
 

---

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
I've never heard of such a thing and certainly not encountered anyone wearing one. I suppose we shouldn't ask what you were looking for when you chanced upon it...
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
I wonder who might choose to wear a collar and chain? Unless we're deeply into po-mo irony, it's a new one on me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
Although I am late in responding, I believe that non-papal white cassocks are a concession to tropical heat and humidity. The first one I encountered was worn by a priest who had recently returned from service as a chaplain in Vietnam.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
What is it with all these shirt lifters?

---

 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mamacita:
The shirt also has white French cuffs. That's something I've never noticed with clerical shirts before.

---

I have a couple of blue-purple clergy shirts with white French cuffs. I tend to associate the white cuff routine with MDS shirts, but I am sure other makers do it. However, the rest of the French cuffed formal shirts I have are collarless and white. I rarely wear them as I do not have many formal occasions which require civil dress rather the cassock, etc.. That said, one of these days I will finally buy a clerical frock coat as I am not really a big cassock wearer. Too dang hot around here.

PD

[ 18. August 2011, 01:14: Message edited by: PD ]
 

---

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Now you have me trying to picture clerical cufflinks. I suppose that could be a whole thread by itself.
 

---

Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
I always associated red cassocks and cottas with a certain species of MOTR Episcopal Church. It is the sort of place where you know someone is going to be wearing white gloves and processing the cross elbow out.

PD

---

Oh, you mean like
This?
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
I always associated red cassocks and cottas with a certain species of MOTR Episcopal Church. It is the sort of place where you know someone is going to be wearing white gloves and processing the cross elbow out.

PD

---

Oh, you mean like
This?

---

Er - not quite!


PD
 

---

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mamacita:
Now you have me trying to picture clerical cufflinks. I suppose that could be a whole thread by itself.

---

I have a set where the "button end" is a rugby ball with GUINNESS inscribed on it. Saves a lot of trouble at Synods as everyone knows my shout at the bar.


PD
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
I always associated red cassocks and cottas with a certain species of MOTR Episcopal Church. It is the sort of place where you know someone is going to be wearing white gloves and processing the cross elbow out.

PD

---

Oh, you mean like
This?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
I wonder who might choose to wear a collar and chain? Unless we're deeply into po-mo irony, it's a new one on me.

---

Is this some sort of S & M? If so, I do not like it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
I wonder who might choose to wear a collar and chain? Unless we're deeply into po-mo irony, it's a new one on me.

---

Is this some sort of S & M? If so, I do not like it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
I wonder who might choose to wear a collar and chain? Unless we're deeply into po-mo irony, it's a new one on me.

---

Is this some sort of S & M? If so, I do not like it.

---

Too Much Information, Leo, even if your confessor would approve.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
I wonder who might choose to wear a collar and chain? Unless we're deeply into po-mo irony, it's a new one on me.

---

Is this some sort of S & M? If so, I do not like it.

---

Well it's definitely not M & S ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Daykin:
Would the pom pom of this biretta tell us the wearer is a monsignor or a canon or a bishop?

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Or is it a signifier of an entirely different kind?

[ 18. August 2011, 21:45: Message edited by: Amos ]
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
I would see that and think 'Canon.' However, I think the coloured pom-pon actually requires some sort of privilege to be granted by the bishop, which I suspect most bishops would grant!

Of course, being of that outlook I would prefer to see Canons decently outfitted with grey silk Almuces

PD
 

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Posted by Daykin (# 16514) on :
 
Thanks PD.

This is the page with the birrettas.

Any one know which is for whom? The site doesn't name them as 'rank' specific.

The last one does not seem to have a pom pom.

PD - may I ask - what is a grey almuce?
 

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Posted by The Man with a Stick (# 12664) on :
 
I think (and this is a basic summation)...

Black - Standard
Purple pom-pom - Canon (anglican) or Mgr (catholic)
Entirely Purple - Bishop
Scarlet - Cardinal (catholic). Not really used in Anglican circles, but I know of an AC priest who is Chaplain to HM who has been seen in one on occasion. I also know of a "Cardinal Rector" who has been known to wear one. I think 'local custom' would be pleaded.
 

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Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
I think (and this is a basic summation)...

Black - Standard
Purple pom-pom - Canon (anglican) or Mgr (catholic)
Entirely Purple - Bishop
Scarlet - Cardinal (catholic). Not really used in Anglican circles, but I know of an AC priest who is Chaplain to HM who has been seen in one on occasion. I also know of a "Cardinal Rector" who has been known to wear one. I think 'local custom' would be pleaded.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Comper's Child:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
I think (and this is a basic summation)...

Black - Standard
Purple pom-pom - Canon (anglican) or Mgr (catholic)
Entirely Purple - Bishop
Scarlet - Cardinal (catholic). Not really used in Anglican circles, but I know of an AC priest who is Chaplain to HM who has been seen in one on occasion. I also know of a "Cardinal Rector" who has been known to wear one. I think 'local custom' would be pleaded.

---

I, too, have known "cardinal rector's" to wear red pom-poms, but the excuse had something to do with having a doctorate or some such thing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
[QUOTE]In an Anglican context, if I recall correctly, I have seen Desmond Tutu in both scarlet red and bishop's purple. I always just assumed he used the red because of being an archbishop.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
A nice pair of masonic cufflinks on the clerical shirt is often in evidence

---

 

---

Posted by Daykin (# 16514) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
Servers who know what to do with birettas must be in short supply these days.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
(The sole purpose in wearing it is to be seen ceremoniously taking it off.)

---

That is my philosophy in wearing glasses, too.
 

---

Posted by Daykin (# 16514) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
I think (and this is a basic summation)...

Black - Standard
Purple pom-pom - Canon (anglican) or Mgr (catholic)
Entirely Purple - Bishop
Scarlet - Cardinal (catholic). Not really used in Anglican circles, but I know of an AC priest who is Chaplain to HM who has been seen in one on occasion. I also know of a "Cardinal Rector" who has been known to wear one. I think 'local custom' would be pleaded.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Daykin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
I think (and this is a basic summation)...

Black - Standard
Purple pom-pom - Canon (anglican) or Mgr (catholic)
Entirely Purple - Bishop
Scarlet - Cardinal (catholic). Not really used in Anglican circles, but I know of an AC priest who is Chaplain to HM who has been seen in one on occasion. I also know of a "Cardinal Rector" who has been known to wear one. I think 'local custom' would be pleaded.

---

Can the pink pom pom on a black biretta be something other than a canon, for example, a bishop. Or is a bishop's biretta always red.

A few years ago I saw a priest (?) with quite a pink rather than a red pom pom. I wondered what his 'rank' was. Would the pink just be a shade of red - and so a canon.

I hope the question deosn't seem too fussy. It;s just one of those rather silly things I've always wanted the answer to.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Daykin:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
[qb]

A few years ago I saw a priest (?) with quite a pink rather than a red pom pom. I wondered what his 'rank' was. Would the pink just be a shade of red - and so a canon.

I hope the question deosn't seem too fussy. It;s just one of those rather silly things I've always wanted the answer to.

---

It's pink because he's not 9ahem) ... not as other men

---

Sorry, I'm not getting the nuance of that reply

 

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Posted by Up In Smoke (# 10971) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

It's pink because he's not 9ahem) ... not as other men

---

Well, actually, he is "as" a good many others of us men in holy orders are

(I once remarked that if all of "us" at the seminary I attended were to turn blue on the same day, it would appear that the campus was suddenly at sea. And that was in my Baptist days!)
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It's pink because he's not 9ahem) ... not as other men

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Daykin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
I think (and this is a basic summation)...

Black - Standard
Purple pom-pom - Canon (anglican) or Mgr (catholic)
Entirely Purple - Bishop
Scarlet - Cardinal (catholic). Not really used in Anglican circles, but I know of an AC priest who is Chaplain to HM who has been seen in one on occasion. I also know of a "Cardinal Rector" who has been known to wear one. I think 'local custom' would be pleaded.

---

Can the pink pom pom on a black biretta be something other than a canon, for example, a bishop. Or is a bishop's biretta always red.

A few years ago I saw a priest (?) with quite a pink rather than a red pom pom. I wondered what his 'rank' was. Would the pink just be a shade of red - and so a canon.

I hope the question deosn't seem too fussy. It;s just one of those rather silly things I've always wanted the answer to.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
Birettas with scarves? (from Anglican Patrimony)

Thurible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Ok, if I could find The Tatler, this would be better for it, but I couldn't so I am asking here.

Fr. Temp has a natty little capelet thing that goes on his cassock. Does this natty little capelet have a fancy liturgical name (e.g., NOT "capelet")? Thanks!

Signed,
Curious in California

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Daykin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
I think (and this is a basic summation)...

Black - Standard
Purple pom-pom - Canon (anglican) or Mgr (catholic)
Entirely Purple - Bishop
Scarlet - Cardinal (catholic). Not really used in Anglican circles, but I know of an AC priest who is Chaplain to HM who has been seen in one on occasion. I also know of a "Cardinal Rector" who has been known to wear one. I think 'local custom' would be pleaded.

---

Can the pink pom pom on a black biretta be something other than a canon, for example, a bishop. Or is a bishop's biretta always red.

A few years ago I saw a priest (?) with quite a pink rather than a red pom pom. I wondered what his 'rank' was. Would the pink just be a shade of red - and so a canon.

I hope the question deosn't seem too fussy. It;s just one of those rather silly things I've always wanted the answer to.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
My Google-fu may be off, but I simply cannot answer my question there. I know someone here will know: What does one wear beneath one's choir cassock? Undies, socks, and shoes? Pants and shirt?

Can I wear an alb over a choir cassock, or is that tacky?

---

Beneath the choir cassock, practically speaking it depends on the weather! Undies, certainly, also socks and shoes. If in orders a clerical collar, if lay, a (detached) white dress shirt collar gives a nice effect.
The old-fashioned Anglo-Catholics said TYTIYS, which being interpreted is 'Tuck your trousers in your socks,' it somehow being less than Catholic to have trouser bottoms showing.

If omitting trousers, be sure the Undie elastic is viable. I have seen a priest lose his underwear while censing the altar - no way to hide that!

Yes, by all means wear choir cassock under alb, it helps it to hang better, as well as being 'by the book.'
 

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Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
I don't discuss what I wear under my cassock...
 

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Posted by Padre Joshua (# 13100) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by seasick:
I don't discuss what I wear under my cassock...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'll get me cope.

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Not a joke I'd expect from a Missouri Synod Lutheran.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Don't even think of it in Darwin. Wearing a cassock that is. Best wear something under the cassock you wouldn't be wearing, though. Or the police may be interested.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by georgiaboy:
The old-fashioned Anglo-Catholics said TYTIYS, which being interpreted is 'Tuck your trousers in your socks,' it somehow being less than Catholic to have trouser bottoms showing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by georgiaboy:
If omitting trousers, be sure the Undie elastic is viable. I have seen a priest lose his underwear while censing the altar - no way to hide that!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by georgiaboy:
The old-fashioned Anglo-Catholics said TYTIYS,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by georgiaboy:
The old-fashioned Anglo-Catholics said TYTIYS,

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Pronounced Titties I presume.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
Will clergy be forgiven for wearing plus-fours instead of regular trousers 'neath the cassock?

---

Ah well, I gather that there were Anglican clergy who wore breeches and stockings until well into Victorian times and I recall seeing photographs of a Spanish canon of the first decade of the 20th century in breeches. Photos of Leo XIII seated suggest he did the same. So there is plenty of precedent.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
OK, I had to look that up. You guys are talking about golf pants?? Plus-fours, for the uninitiated. Carry on.
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Is it acceptable to show a dash of gaiter beneath the cassock hem? Or should dignitaries de-gaiter before robing?

(I suspect that this is the kind of problem that PD has to consider all the time... )
 

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Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Is it acceptable to show a dash of gaiter beneath the cassock hem? Or should dignitaries de-gaiter before robing?

(I suspect that this is the kind of problem that PD has to consider all the time... )

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by georgiaboy:

Based on photographs I have seen, gaiters were traditionally worn with the 'apron,' which was originally in fact the cassock kilted up so that the hem was just below the knee. And over this, of course, the frogged frock coat. All quite splendid and possibly not seen since Geoffrey Fisher(?)

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Here he is, with Cardinal Bourne to match!

Gaitered Prelates with Man in Shorts

(Scroll down to second pic.)

But the Archdeacon of Oxford was wearing gaiters long after Fisher's death.
 

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Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :
 
Re: the Archdeacon's gaiters:

Is that why Oxford has been called 'the last home of lost causes?'
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by american piskie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by georgiaboy:

Based on photographs I have seen, gaiters were traditionally worn with the 'apron,' which was originally in fact the cassock kilted up so that the hem was just below the knee. And over this, of course, the frogged frock coat. All quite splendid and possibly not seen since Geoffrey Fisher(?)

---

Here he is, with Cardinal Bourne to match!

Gaitered Prelates with Man in Shorts

(Scroll down to second pic.)

But the Archdeacon of Oxford was wearing gaiters long after Fisher's death.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by georgiaboy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Is it acceptable to show a dash of gaiter beneath the cassock hem? Or should dignitaries de-gaiter before robing?

(I suspect that this is the kind of problem that PD has to consider all the time... )

---

Based on photographs I have seen, gaiters were traditionally worn with the 'apron,' which was originally in fact the cassock kilted up so that the hem was just below the knee. And over this, of course, the frogged frock coat. All quite splendid and possibly not seen since Geoffrey Fisher(?)
Thus it would seem that said dignitary should remove frock coat, apron and gaiters (or any combo thereof) before vesting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
And isn't that ++Lang rather than Fisher (in fact must be, because Fisher didn't become ABC until 1944 by which time both B-P and Bourne were dead).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by american piskie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
And isn't that ++Lang rather than Fisher (in fact must be, because Fisher didn't become ABC until 1944 by which time both B-P and Bourne were dead).

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I am sorry, the Spanish website where I first saw this said it was Bourne; Fisher was my own mistake.

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No, easy mistake and the point is that it's a cracking good picture- many thanks for finding it.
 

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Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :
 
I either have never seen this thread before, or else completely forgot about it a long time ago! How did that happen? Good stuff here!
 

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Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Gaiters, for those who are interested, were frequently sported by Spanish RC clerics until the times of Alfonso XII, at any rate. For street use, they wore cassocks, but in the countryside, especially when riding, breeches and gaiters were the standard. An older version can be seen worn by the prelate in the film, The Mission, when he went on his visitation to Paraguay.
 

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Posted by anne (# 73) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by georgiaboy:
The old-fashioned Anglo-Catholics said TYTIYS, which being interpreted is 'Tuck your trousers in your socks,' it somehow being less than Catholic to have trouser bottoms showing.

---

I always do that because it looks better. Now I have a more important reason fore doing it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anne:
The question "what if I tucked my cassock into the waistband of my tights?" didn't seem to help.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
And what about the hunting pink and breeches of the old-style squarson?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
I have done the "not a stitch under my cassock apart from black socks and shoes" to show my disapprobation of a particularly nauseating grovelling 'civic' pseudo-service. Told the precentor as well - who seemed to think I was joking.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
made deprecating comments with reference to one of her diocesan colleagues whose pink birkenstocks quite put congregants off their Advent devotions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
I have done the "not a stitch under my cassock apart from black socks and shoes" to show my disapprobation of a particularly nauseating grovelling 'civic' pseudo-service. Told the precentor as well - who seemed to think I was joking.

---

When I was a reader there was one evening when it was hotter than 'the other place' and the rather statuesque brunette (of whom I was somewhat fod) who usually worked with me for Matins and Evensong matter of factly informed me that 'it is so damn hot this evening I've only got my undies on under this' (referring to her cassock) - that left me incapable of rational thought for at least half an hour. Thank God it was not my turn to preach.

PD

[ 07. January 2012, 14:50: Message edited by: PD ]
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
Has there been any word about Ordinariate Tat? I'm wondering specifically if Fr. Steenson will be allowed pontificals. I assume he will not be ordained a Catholic bishop, due to his marriage, but I do believe he was an Episcopal bishop, was he not? Also, if I recall correctly there are certain situations (such as abbots) where bishoply regalia may be worn. Am I recalling incorrectly that certain monsignors or something similar were afforded such tat as well?

[In any event, I still would like to see a mitred abbess put in charge of the ordinariates, but I suppose I must wait for that...]
 

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Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
Has there been any word about Ordinariate Tat? I'm wondering specifically if Fr. Steenson will be allowed pontificals. I assume he will not be ordained a Catholic bishop, due to his marriage, but I do believe he was an Episcopal bishop, was he not? Also, if I recall correctly there are certain situations (such as abbots) where bishoply regalia may be worn. Am I recalling incorrectly that certain monsignors or something similar were afforded such tat as well?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
Has there been any word about Ordinariate Tat? I'm wondering specifically if Fr. Steenson will be allowed pontificals. I assume he will not be ordained a Catholic bishop, due to his marriage, but I do believe he was an Episcopal bishop, was he not? Also, if I recall correctly there are certain situations (such as abbots) where bishoply regalia may be worn. Am I recalling incorrectly that certain monsignors or something similar were afforded such tat as well?

[In any event, I still would like to see a mitred abbess put in charge of the ordinariates, but I suppose I must wait for that...]

---

Well, mitred abbesses have held ordinary jurisdiction within (barely) living times, so it is theoretically possible (and I have seen the abbatial prison at Las Huelgas, where errant priests were put in the hoosegow at the Abbess' ruling until 1821). But Matin L does not ask the important question: will the Ordinary wear apron and gaiters? And what will he be called? The Roman Your Excellency? Father Ordinary? In the Canadian parishes (as rumour suggests that they'll likely be housed with the Chair of S Peter in the short run), will he be a Your Lordship whenever he is north of the world's longest undefended border?

[ 08. January 2012, 04:18: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Father Ordinary has a nice ring to it. Though I am unable to comment about its appropriateness in this case.
 

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Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 
I suspect he'll be called "Monsignor", although "Vicar" has something patrimonial about it.
 

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Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
Does anybody know where I might be able to procure a smartish 12-branched candelabra reasonably inexpensively? Last Good Friday's effort of 15 candles stuck in sand was a little more than mildly disastrous.

Many thanks.

[ 08. January 2012, 14:21: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]
 

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Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
12 candles it was, not 15. The candles got too hot and all floppedby the end of the service. They looked like candy canes.
 

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Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Astley:
12 candles it was, not 15. The candles got too hot and all floppedby the end of the service. They looked like candy canes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
Has there been any word about Ordinariate Tat? I'm wondering specifically if Fr. Steenson will be allowed pontificals. I assume he will not be ordained a Catholic bishop, due to his marriage, but I do believe he was an Episcopal bishop, was he not? Also, if I recall correctly there are certain situations (such as abbots) where bishoply regalia may be worn. Am I recalling incorrectly that certain monsignors or something similar were afforded such tat as well?

[In any event, I still would like to see a mitred abbess put in charge of the ordinariates, but I suppose I must wait for that...]

---

Well, mitred abbesses have held ordinary jurisdiction within (barely) living times, so it is theoretically possible (and I have seen the abbatial prison at Las Huelgas, where errant priests were put in the hoosegow at the Abbess' ruling until 1821). But Matin L does not ask the important question: will the Ordinary wear apron and gaiters? And what will he be called? The Roman Your Excellency? Father Ordinary? In the Canadian parishes (as rumour suggests that they'll likely be housed with the Chair of S Peter in the short run), will he be a Your Lordship whenever he is north of the world's longest undefended border?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stranger in a strange land:

Regarding tat, the Ordinary will be entitled to pontificals and all former anglican bishops can petition the Holy See to use them. None of the English bishops have done so, as far as I am aware.

---

quote:

---

That Mgr Newton does so and the rest of us do not is simply because we want his office as Ordinary to be apparent – it has nothing to do with his being a Msgr, everything to do with being our Ordinary. I suspect too that he did not ask, but was told, what he ought to wear.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
At a slight tangent, can he stay in CR even though he's joined the Ordinariate, then? Or is he transferring to another order in the RCC?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
The Anglican Community of the Resurrection is a somewhat different type of body, English in origin and one in which solemnn religious vows are not taken.

---

quote:

---

Members of religious communities normally make vows for life. Popular belief assumes them to be Poverty, Chastity and Obedience: those vows became popular in the Middle Ages, but in common with the Benedictine tradition we in CR make the more traditional vows of Stability, Obedience and Conversion of Life.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
Seem solemn enough for me, and presumably the members of CR.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CL:
Bishop Mercer has lived in the Mirfield community for several years now since his retirement as Metropolitan of the ACCC. He intends to continue living there, though obviously he will no longer commune.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CL:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stranger in a strange land:

Regarding tat, the Ordinary will be entitled to pontificals and all former anglican bishops can petition the Holy See to use them. None of the English bishops have done so, as far as I am aware.

---

Edwin Barnes, quondam bishop of Richborough elaborated on this recently:

quote:

---

That Mgr Newton does so and the rest of us do not is simply because we want his office as Ordinary to be apparent – it has nothing to do with his being a Msgr, everything to do with being our Ordinary. I suspect too that he did not ask, but was told, what he ought to wear.

---

Things are made more interesting now by the reception into the Ordinariate last Saturday in Portsmouth of Robert Mercer CR, quondam bishop of Matabeleland and latterly Metropolitan of the Anglican Catholic Church of Canada (TAC). He is a monk thus eligible not only to be priested but also consecrated bishop, though given he is past the normal age of retirement for a Catholic bishop it may not be seen as feasible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pancho:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
Seem solemn enough for me, and presumably the members of CR.

---

"Solemn vow" is a technical term under Canon Law. Is there something equivalent in the Church of England?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
Anglicans religious communities tend to use the terms 'temporary' vows for 'simple' vows, and 'life' vows for solemn vows. In the canon law of various Anglican national churches, if there is legislation on the subject of vows at all, those would be the terms generally in use.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by regulator reverend:
I will be ordained later this year, and I am looking for a cassock. I have a double-breasted Sarum style cassock, but would like to get a single breasted one for my ordination. Is it OK to wear a surplice with a single breated cassock in CofE?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by seasick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by regulator reverend:
I will be ordained later this year, and I am looking for a cassock. I have a double-breasted Sarum style cassock, but would like to get a single breasted one for my ordination. Is it OK to wear a surplice with a single breated cassock in CofE?

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
I think some of us regard wearing a Roman cassock as 'flying false colours' but other than that I can see no objection.

PD

---

quote:

---

The use of buttons renders the cassock inconvenient to walk in, uncomfortable to kneel in, and cumbersome to put on. It would also add to the cost if buttonhole-making were not so often cruelly underpaid

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
You'll remember what the Blessed Percy had to say on the matter

quote:

---

The use of buttons renders the cassock inconvenient to walk in, uncomfortable to kneel in, and cumbersome to put on. It would also add to the cost if buttonhole-making were not so often cruelly underpaid

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by seasick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by regulator reverend:
I will be ordained later this year, and I am looking for a cassock. I have a double-breasted Sarum style cassock, but would like to get a single breasted one for my ordination. Is it OK to wear a surplice with a single breated cassock in CofE?

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spike:
That's a very good point. I remember only too well the time I genuflected and one of the buttons on my cassock dug straight into the soft bit just below my kneecap. My eyes still water just thinking about it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by seasick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by regulator reverend:
I will be ordained later this year, and I am looking for a cassock. I have a double-breasted Sarum style cassock, but would like to get a single breasted one for my ordination. Is it OK to wear a surplice with a single breated cassock in CofE?

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by seasick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by regulator reverend:
I will be ordained later this year, and I am looking for a cassock. I have a double-breasted Sarum style cassock, but would like to get a single breasted one for my ordination. Is it OK to wear a surplice with a single breated cassock in CofE?

---

---

Yes. It is perfectly acceptable.
 

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Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
The double-breasted cassock makes the wearer look like the Verger from Dad's Army IMO
 

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Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 
And the double breasted cassocks can gape open when worn by ladies with larger busts.
 

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Posted by Arch Anglo Catholic (# 15181) on :
 
@PD

Your comment with regard to flying under false colours was once very true, but given the very large number of Anglican clergy wearing single breasted, 39 button cassocks, perhaps not so today, noting also that a fair number of CofE Bishops sport them too.

It is more of a distinction, one might suggest, on the other side of the pond where Cassocks are described as either Anglican/sarum or Roman. Not quite the same in dear old Blighty!

Pip pip!
 

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Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
I'm a Methodist and I wear a single-breasted cassock. Am I guilty of impersonating an Anglican or of impersonating a Roman Catholic?
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
By definition almost, if you've got 39 buttons you must be an Anglican (or impersonating one).
 

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Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 
The clergy I know wear single breasted cassocks but with only about 12 buttons not 39..
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 

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Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
The clergy I know wear single breasted cassocks but with only about 12 buttons not 39..

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Originally posted by Sacred London:

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Originally posted by seasick:

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Originally posted by regulator reverend:
I will be ordained later this year, and I am looking for a cassock. I have a double-breasted Sarum style cassock, but would like to get a single breasted one for my ordination. Is it OK to wear a surplice with a single breated cassock in CofE?

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A proper (Sarum) surplice will completely conceal whatever cassock you are wearing. Single-breasted cassocks are quite usual in the Church of England.

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Originally posted by leo:
Not really - there should be about six inches of cassock visible where the surplice ends.

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Originally posted by Angloid:

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Originally posted by leo:
Not really - there should be about six inches of cassock visible where the surplice ends.

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Mirfield monks used to have this fashion for wearing their cassocks very short. Hence when they put a surplice on top you could just see their ankles.

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Originally posted by Chorister:

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Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
The clergy I know wear single breasted cassocks but with only about 12 buttons not 39..

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Hereticks!

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Originally posted by leo:

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Originally posted by Angloid:

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Originally posted by leo:
Not really - there should be about six inches of cassock visible where the surplice ends.

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Mirfield monks used to have this fashion for wearing their cassocks very short. Hence when they put a surplice on top you could just see their ankles.

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? They wore cottas in my day.

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Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
And the double breasted cassocks can gape open when worn by ladies with larger busts.

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Originally posted by Angloid:

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Originally posted by leo:

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Originally posted by Angloid:

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Originally posted by leo:
Not really - there should be about six inches of cassock visible where the surplice ends.

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Mirfield monks used to have this fashion for wearing their cassocks very short. Hence when they put a surplice on top you could just see their ankles.

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? They wore cottas in my day.

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Are you sure? My memory is of long Sarum surplices (and apparelled albs for the servers) They've gone a lot simpler recently with cassock-albs (on top of cassocks!)

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Originally posted by Spiffy:
Speaking of larger busts, I was wondering if folks who have experience borrowing from a common closet could advise on whether a female with broad shoulders and a large chest should go for a male or female cassock. I've been asked to pick up an acolyte version for service at the altar.

I tend to wear men's shirts anyway because women's clothing manufacturers in their infinite wisdom think plus-size females have weensy stick arms, and I'm wondering if I'll have this problem in the cassock realm also.

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If you are serving regularly, and definitely if you are going to be ordained, get your own cassock that fits you properly and behaves itself by your rules. If nothing else it saves you a lot of searching around for the one in the common cupboard that fits and means you can get on with preparation. You have to do a lot of different things in a cassock (walk, carry, kneel, gesture...) so your confidence and its fit are important.

A made to measure, wool/poly mix cassock will repay itself with years of service.

(3F, Ordained, Anglican, 39 buttons)
 

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Posted by regulator reverend (# 16890) on :
 
Thanks for all your advice on the cassock front. Made-to-measure single breasted it is for me. Any other vestment advice gratefully received as I embark on this journey - ordination coming up in Petertide 2012. But I promise no Olympic rings on my stole!
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

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Originally posted by Spike:
The double-breasted cassock makes the wearer look like the Verger from Dad's Army IMO

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Originally posted by regulator reverend:
But I promise no Olympic rings on my stole!

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Originally posted by Albertus:

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Originally posted by Spike:
The double-breasted cassock makes the wearer look like the Verger from Dad's Army IMO

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Only if worn with a flat cap, and a duster stuck into the belt!
BTW, what's all this stuff about undoing/ doing up all 39 buttons to get in and out of the cassock? Surely you just undo enough to step in/out of the top of it? That's certainly what I was taught to do in the distant days when I used to wear one.

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Originally posted by leo:

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Originally posted by Albertus:

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Originally posted by Spike:
The double-breasted cassock makes the wearer look like the Verger from Dad's Army IMO

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Only if worn with a flat cap, and a duster stuck into the belt!
BTW, what's all this stuff about undoing/ doing up all 39 buttons to get in and out of the cassock? Surely you just undo enough to step in/out of the top of it? That's certainly what I was taught to do in the distant days when I used to wear one.

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I still do that.

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I assume you're referring to the method if getting in and out of a s/b cassock: I can't quite picture you with yellow duster and flat cap.

 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

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Originally posted by Albertus:
Surely you just undo enough to step in/out of the top of it? That's certainly what I was taught to do in the distant days when I used to wear one.

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Originally posted by Spike:
The double-breasted cassock makes the wearer look like the Verger from Dad's Army IMO

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Only if worn with a cloth cap, your reverence...
 

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Posted by regulator reverend (# 16890) on :
 
I have been given a stole and it has a cord near the top of the stole holding the two sides together. When worn the cord has to go round the back of the neck, which makes the "yoke" of the stole stand out somewhat.
 

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Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :
 

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Originally posted by regulator reverend:
I have been given a stole and it has a cord near the top of the stole holding the two sides together. When worn the cord has to go round the back of the neck, which makes the "yoke" of the stole stand out somewhat.

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Originally posted by 3rdFooter:

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Originally posted by Spiffy:
Speaking of larger busts, I was wondering if folks who have experience borrowing from a common closet could advise on whether a female with broad shoulders and a large chest should go for a male or female cassock. I've been asked to pick up an acolyte version for service at the altar.

I tend to wear men's shirts anyway because women's clothing manufacturers in their infinite wisdom think plus-size females have weensy stick arms, and I'm wondering if I'll have this problem in the cassock realm also.

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If you are serving regularly, and definitely if you are going to be ordained, get your own cassock that fits you properly and behaves itself by your rules. If nothing else it saves you a lot of searching around for the one in the common cupboard that fits and means you can get on with preparation. You have to do a lot of different things in a cassock (walk, carry, kneel, gesture...) so your confidence and its fit are important.

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Originally posted by lily pad:
Why not just sew one from scratch in the first place? While I've never made one, I've thought about it many times. They have patterns online and in regular fabric stores - check the costume section of the books.

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Originally posted by Spiffy:
For those who aren't into pret-a-porter, that's about a size 2XL US men's, and unless it's a knit with generous positive ease, I won't fit into a women's cut shirt at all.

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Originally posted by leo:
So that is why women shouldn't be ordained.

Joke - honestly - I've known quite a few anglo-catholic priests whose robes needed to be 'very generous'.

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Originally posted by leo:

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Originally posted by Spiffy:
For those who aren't into pret-a-porter, that's about a size 2XL US men's, and unless it's a knit with generous positive ease, I won't fit into a women's cut shirt at all.

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So that is why women shouldn't be ordained.

Joke - honestly - I've known quite a few anglo-catholic priests whose robes needed to be 'very generous'.

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Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
I just saw excellent pictures of the recent consecration of the bishops of Winchester and Bradwell in St.Paul's cathedral on January 25.
See the website of St.Paul's cathedral.

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A Eucharist service, held on Wednesday 25th January, saw the Archbishop of Canterbury officially ordain the Reverend Canon Tim Dakin to the post of Bishop of Winchester

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Originally posted by sacerdos:
I seem to have seen some photos recently of FiF clergy being ordained in cassock & surplice. Does anyone know why?

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Originally posted by sacerdos:
But as far as I can tell these ordinations are conferred by PEV's in FiF churches. What conceivable need is there to make concessions to protestantism?

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Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:

In other parts of the Anglican Communion,Scotland,the USA the newly consecrated bishops receive chasuble,mitre and staff after the Laying on of hands.
But why not in the Church of England ?
Could someone advise me on this liturgical issue ?

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Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
...the forgettable George Carey ...

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Originally posted by Angloid:
I thought there were a few evangelical parishes under the auspices of FiF?

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Originally posted by sacerdos:
I seem to have seen some photos recently of FiF clergy being ordained in cassock & surplice. Does anyone know why?

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Originally posted by SFG:
Who are good and not expensive suppliers of traditional clergy wear?c

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Originally posted by Fidei Defensor:

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Originally posted by SFG:
Who are good and not expensive suppliers of traditional clergy wear?c

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There is only one who fits both bills, good and not expensive:

C M Almy.
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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I see lots of URC ministers in this style preaching gown.

I think in Reformed circles the correlation might hold that the longer ones preaching gown the higher ones churchmanship. Please note the evangelicals in the Reformed Church don't seem to be the lowest of low churchmen, that is reserved for a specific type of liberal.

Jengie

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