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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Anglican Confession
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
I have been visiting a fairly Kocher Sydney Anglican church, no prayer book service, just stuff on overheads etc, no lectionary readings, all preach through a book of the bible with readings and books chosen by the Presbyter. All the usual stuff anyway,
What I find strange though is that every service, whether there is communion or not they say/read off the whiteboard a corporate confession that is more or less in the format of the traditional confession,...so they all say it and then immediately move onto the bible readings or sing a hymn, there is no absolution or acknowledgement that our sins are forgiven. I guess the idea is that it would be wrong for the Presbyter to be seen to be acting in the place of God, who is the only one who can forgive sins.
It just seems strange to me to be left hanging after the confession though. Wondering about thoughts from people who are more versed in the liturgy and rubrics, is it a strange thing to do? Even if the Minister doesn't say "your sins are forgiven" couldn't he at least say something-even a jab at penal substitutionary atonement would be better than nothing "Christ died to set you free from your sins" kind of thing.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
The Collect for the Twenty First Sunday after Trinity is described in the Book of Common Prayer.1662 as being "Absolution in the Absence of a Priest".
It's quite lovely (what isn't in the BCP, 1662).
Read or memorise it to yourself perhaps?
[ 29. September 2014, 03:59: Message edited by: Galilit ]
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I'm afraid this is par for the course with Sydney Anglicans. I would find a different church. I went to a service in Sydney where the congregation was invited to help themselves to bread and wine as they left the church! There are a few churches in Sydney that are traditional Anglican.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
When you read about all those strange or weird customs in the Diocese of Sydney, you have to conclude that this Diocese has already left the Anglican Communion.
In they should should better start a new church.
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Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
This could be an interesting thread on the use of Confessions in Anglican liturgy and praxis. Can we try to avoid derailing it with discussions of whether Sydney Anglicans are or should be 'real' Anglicans thank all very much!
(Yes, I know this topic arouses many passions...)
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
When you read about all those strange or weird customs in the Diocese of Sydney, you have to conclude that this Diocese has already left the Anglican Communion.
In they should should better start a new church.
Sydney (as far as the Anglican Church goes) is a very strange place. I lived there for 13 years, having grown up in Melbourne, where it was a far different scene. Sydney, under its former ++ Jensen, might almost fit the picture you paint, although I get the feeling you have never been there. It almost seemed in the interest of two competing parties, the Cathedral and "the alternative Anglo-Catholic 'cathedral' down the road Christ Church St Laurence (CCSL)" to put out there was this enormous gap and nothing between. This was patently untrue.There were many Anglican churches which were Low Church or Liberal Evangelical in the English sense. St Anne's Strathfield was then "High" rather than Anglo-Catholic. I think the current Archbishop is more conciliatory than ++ Jensen. That being said, Sydney has a long way to go.
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Well...
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Even if they're concerned about the idea "that it would be wrong for the Presbyter to be seen to be acting in the place of God, who is the only one who can forgive sins", surely there could be some Scriptural assurance that our sins have been forgiven? The Comfortable Words spring to mind but there are many, many more.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Higgs Bosun
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# 16582
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Posted
As a Reader, I am not permitted to pronounce absolution using the 'you' forms. However, most of the prayers in Common Worship have a 'we' form for use by such as myself.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Even if they're concerned about the idea "that it would be wrong for the Presbyter to be seen to be acting in the place of God, who is the only one who can forgive sins", surely there could be some Scriptural assurance that our sins have been forgiven? The Comfortable Words spring to mind but there are many, many more.
And in Cranmer, despite it being called an 'absolution' and not to be used by Readers, it is quite clear that Christ forgiveness sins, not the priest - 'HE pardonneth....'
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Even if they're concerned about the idea "that it would be wrong for the Presbyter to be seen to be acting in the place of God, who is the only one who can forgive sins", surely there could be some Scriptural assurance that our sins have been forgiven? The Comfortable Words spring to mind but there are many, many more.
And in Cranmer, despite it being called an 'absolution' and not to be used by Readers, it is quite clear that Christ forgiveness sins, not the priest - 'HE pardonneth....'
Well quite - a previous church of mine, very like Sydney Anglican churches in many ways (and subscribed to Matthias Media which I think is Sydney-based) had no issue using the absolution for this reason.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
As a Reader, I am not permitted to pronounce absolution using the 'you' forms. However, most of the prayers in Common Worship have a 'we' form for use by such as myself.
I like the first person plural.
It is so inclusive and non-hierarchical, even when pronounced by a person of the hierarchy. I think that it places the emphasis on
the assurance of forgiveness to us all for everything ...I am getting all warm inside just thinking about it
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
If you look at what you find jarring or too personal in Common Worship and go back to Cranmer IME you find that Cranmer got it right ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Hence the phrase "Cranmer's matchless prose" as one of God's favourite languages (along with Hebrew and Latin/chant)...
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
His prose might have been okay but he wasn't the life of the theological party. The words miserable and git come to my liturgical mind.
I'm strictly a second person plural type myself, whether I'm up the front or kneeling in the pews. The priest is effectively enacting the words of God, and representing God's authority to pull me out of the quicksand. If the words of absolution are spoken from within the quicksand I tend to think we're all up the creek without a paddle.
But with Cranmer as soon as you've heard words of absolution you're back grovelling in the faeces again, so the Eucharist ceases to be a foretaste of the eschatological Reign and becomes instead the torture imposed by a miserable but Divine Righted court.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'm strictly a second person plural type myself, whether I'm up the front or kneeling in the pews. The priest is effectively enacting the words of God, and representing God's authority to pull me out of the quicksand. If the words of absolution are spoken from within the quicksand I tend to think we're all up the creek without a paddle.
Pretty much as we think, and it mirrors the words of APBA Second Order (so long since I heard anything else, I can't remember it).
Evangeline, I thought you went to Enmore. If you want something rather more in an Anglican tradition than you're getting, go to Anglicans Together and I think you'll find somewhere suitable and convenient. I'm not sure about Granville at the moment, and the new Rector is trying to drag South Hurstville into the Moore College group. There are many others where you might be comfortable as well, but I'm not sure what part of Sydney you live in or to which you might have easy access.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Thanks all for the comments.
Not Enmore GeeD. although I have visited there on occasion. I am aware of who's who in the Parishes zoo and would happily participate in a DH discussion on the peculiarities of Sydney Anglicanism but am genuinely interested in just this one aspect of confession on this thread.
What is the point of the corporate confession, seems without absolution it makes one dwell on one's failures. Is there a theology of the confession?
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Thanks all for the comments.
Not Enmore GeeD. although I have visited there on occasion. I am aware of who's who in the Parishes zoo and would happily participate in a DH discussion on the peculiarities of Sydney Anglicanism but am genuinely interested in just this one aspect of confession on this thread.
What is the point of the corporate confession, seems without absolution it makes one dwell on one's failures. Is there a theology of the confession?
I think it better to leave things as they are - otherwise the police, with no knowledge of Sydney or of the remainder of Australia - would be around with ex cathedra statements. There seems an assumption by many that Sydney is nothing but the Moore College group, and that Australia nothing but Sydney.
As to St Anne's Strathfield - I have no direct and up-to-date knowledge of the churchmanship there, but reading the web-site suggests that it is still reasonably high. I have not seen that distinction in years Sir Pellinore, but understand it well.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
That's a bit weird.
I'd somehow imagined, from what I heard on the Ship, that Sydney's claim was that as the true successor of the Reformation, it had remained faithful to the Church of England at the time of first settlement, between 1788 and say 1820.
Obviously, I've got the wrong end of the stick. Omitting any absolution does not fit that.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
What is the point of the corporate confession, seems without absolution it makes one dwell on one's failures. Is there a theology of the confession?
In my understanding we are all corporately acknowledging our participation in humanity's web of sin. We may have done naughty things (I haven't had time this morning) but we are a naughty people even if we have not. Therefore as priests, lay or ordained, we ALL offer our prayer, acknowledging our participation and all humanity's participation in the web of sin, and hearing the presider-presbyter speak the words that God has made possible for us and all humanity to hear in Christ: "You are forgiven. In Christ." Whatever that might be interpreted to mean.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
As a description of life as we experience it, these once familiar words can hardly be bettered, quote:
We have left undone those things which we ought to have done: and we have done those things which we ought not to have done;
None of the forms of general confession since have got anywhere near its calibre.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Spot on. And it's in the right order, too, which subsequent confessions (mostly?) aren't: putting the things that we haven't done first.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
What is the point of the corporate confession, seems without absolution it makes one dwell on one's failures. Is there a theology of the confession?
In my understanding we are all corporately acknowledging our participation in humanity's web of sin. We may have done naughty things (I haven't had time this morning) but we are a naughty people even if we have not. Therefore as priests, lay or ordained, we ALL offer our prayer, acknowledging our participation and all humanity's participation in the web of sin, and hearing the presider-presbyter speak the words that God has made possible for us and all humanity to hear in Christ: "You are forgiven. In Christ." Whatever that might be interpreted to mean.
Thanks Zappa, I guess I my problem is trying to explain theologically why it's wrong to have a corporate confession without the absolution.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
No, we're left here and now.
Stuck.
Been there done that...NO T-Shirt!
All the things we corporately did/were involved in (by definition of being one of the 7 billion humans here) are not forgiven us who are individually sitting or kneeling at that moment.
Structural sin is a bas*ard at the best of times - worse when you aren't even forgiven. You walk out the door and start all over again just by breathing.
Of course some are more sensitive to this and take it more personally than others...guess which camp I fall into?
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
In the APBA(not sure about AAPB) liturgies for morning and evening prayer, there is a quasi-absolution that goes
quote:
God desires that none should perish,
but that all should turn to Christ and live.
In response to that call, we acknowledge our sins.
God pardons those who humbly repent, and truly believe the good news. Therefore we have peace with God, through Jesus Christ.
Even if one has a theological concern about the officiant's role as pronouncer of absolution, the above could be both a)theologically acceptable and b)an authorised liturgical form.
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
But have we repented humbly enough? And is our belief really, truly, true? Isn't this faith as works?
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
No, it's faith as faith: repentance and belief.
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Then why the intensifiers?
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
In the APBA(not sure about AAPB) liturgies for morning and evening prayer, there is a quasi-absolution that goes ...
What do these two mysterious sets of initials stand for please? When I tried to find out, I got the American Power Boat Association and the Association for Applied Psychophysiology and Biofeedback. I don't imagine either of them are into forms of Absolution.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Anglican Prayer Book for Oz.
Btw, I Googled the acronym also and got some amusingly irrelevant things, then I saw it woz Oz and being from "nearby" worked it out for myself.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
AAPB - An Australian Prayer Book. This was published in the late 70's and is basically a modern language 1662 Book of Common Prayer.
APBA - A Prayer Book for Australia. This came out in 1995, and is not only in modern language but also takes account of the changes in liturgical studies from the early 60's on. The Second Order of Holy Communion is basically the standard throughout Australia, save for Sydney - the AAPB is the most common "traditional" service here.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Leo, your "it" is ambiguous. Are your referring to AAPB or APBA?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Also little explicit prayer for those who have died.
I suspect the Diocese of Sydney - while we're not discussing them per se - would have exercised their influence to ensure no such nastiness sullied an official publication of the church, AAPB or APBA. Likewise that nasty papish thing about "he that cometh in the name." Because he doesn't cometh. Or not then, at any rate.
Come to think about it, the rite of auricular confession only scraped past the attention of Sydney in the 1978 AAPB by means of a pastoral office back door. But General Confession was alright with Sydney as long as you didn't really mean to confess, just to convert. Or something. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Thank you Zappa. I am being tempted along this tangential line by a host. My excuse and I'm sticking to it.
That's the first time I've ever heard that comment about AAPB, but bow to your knowledge and training.
What is strange is not just the unusual treatment of the Benedictus in APBA 2nd Order but the complete omission of the Agnus Dei - the stranger because the standard Dudman setting includes it and at every service using that Order it has been either sung or said.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Leo, your "it" is ambiguous. Are your referring to AAPB or APBA?
Both - they are bound together in the pdf linked to.
A difficult link to negotiate, but it only refers to AAPB in the link name, and I am unable quickly to find any of the APBA ion opening it.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Barnabas Aus
Shipmate
# 15869
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Posted
Gee D is correct. This is only the AAPB text. I use the website when preparing our parish pew bulletins. It has PDFs of all three prayer books as well as the Hymn books commonly used.
A Prayer Book for Australia is also published in an interactive form on the site. It contains material for August 15 which happens to be the feast of title for one of our centres, but under the title Mary Mother of the Lord rather than the Assumption, perhaps to assuage the feelings of some of the more evangelical diocese in the Australin church.
Posts: 375 | From: Hunter Valley NSW | Registered: Sep 2010
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas Aus:
It has PDFs of all three prayer books as well as the Hymn books commonly used.
Barnabas, the epray site doesn't mention the hymn books directly - as it included in the general subscription or is it an add-on?
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And in Cranmer, despite it being called an 'absolution' and not to be used by Readers, it is quite clear that Christ forgiveness sins, not the priest - 'HE pardonneth.... '
Yet things aren't quite so clear cut when we read The Visitation of the Sick, and it says;
Our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath left power to his Church to absolve all sinners who truly repent and believe in him, of his great mercy forgive thee thine offences: And by his authority committed to me, I absolve thee from all thy sins, In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
The idea of whether a priest can forgive sins has long been a bone of contention between Catholic and Protestant, but I don't think any priest , not even the Pope, would ever claim any personal power to forgive sins. When a priest, by the chrism of his ordination, acts in persona Christi, he may use the words "I absolve" but he will always be aware that it's Christ who is absolving. I think the confusion within the BCP best illustrates that we can get too hung up on words. The Reader must use the Collect for 21 Trinity because he has no power invested in him to pronounce God's forgiveness. The priest has.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Thanks Zappa, I guess I my problem is trying to explain theologically why it's wrong to have a corporate confession without the absolution.
Because the absolution (or the Declaration/Assurance of Pardon/Forgiveness, as it would be called in my tradition) is the proclamation of the Gospel. Omit it, and the church fails to proclaim the Gospel.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Thank-you Nick Tamen for that succinct summary, most helpful.
I wonder if the minister reads SOF as over the last few weeks they seem to be proclaiming that we are forgiven because Jesus died for us.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I think it might be safe to do so. I have suspicion that my supervisor reads Ship of Fools and not just that and knows who I am. That last bit is not hard to do if you know me well enough in real life.
Jengie
[ 06. November 2014, 08:14: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas Aus
Shipmate
# 15869
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Posted
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas Aus:
It has PDFs of all three prayer books as well as the Hymn books commonly used.
Barnabas, the epray site doesn't mention the hymn books directly - as it included in the general subscription or is it an add-on?
My apologies EmLi,
I have been away from home quite a bit in the last few weeks, and missed your post.
The website has the public domain words from Together in Song and An Australian Hymn Book available from links on the front page. The previous CD version of epray had access to other resources, so I was probably a little vague in my previous post.
Posts: 375 | From: Hunter Valley NSW | Registered: Sep 2010
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