Ship of Fools: Incense at spoken services

Thread: Incense at spoken services Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

The choir I sing with are recording a cd this weekend,using a large, high Anglican church in south London (st John's upper norwood).

We were there last night and started again this morning after their morning low Mass. I was surprised to smell that incense had obviously been used at low mass. I've never come across that before even at places like all saints Margaret Street or Saint Albans Holborn.

Even more surprising was a smell of incense after said evening prayer (no benediction).

Is this normal?!

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

With your ?! are you suggesting that it's wrong?

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

I just found it surprising, in particular never having encountered at churches in the same city I consider to have higher churchmanship.

I don't have a copy of Ritual Notes or anything like that to look this up so no idea if 'wrong'!

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

Did you like it?

I don't mean wrong in quotes as in "what does Ritual Notes have to say about this?" I was wondering if your punctuation on "is this normal?!" was meant to imply in some way "this shouldn't be done, for some absolute sense of 'should', not just some tautological sense of 'if you want to follow Ritual Notes, then don't do things not in Ritual Notes.'"

[ 25. October 2014, 21:33: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

Personally I love incense. If you can see the altar you've not put enough on.

But...this is a church being hired out to a very good choir paying a fortune to make a commercial record. Not everyone's lungs react well to lingering incense.

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

Thanks for explaining.

I wonder if there were assumptions made about the use or non-use of incense which it would have been good to spell out in the contract for the hire of the church.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

You could pay even more again for a fully equipped professional recording studio that would be free of incense, but I presume that the choir chose the location for the acoustic. It seems a little unreasonable for a church to have to change its worship of God to suit a couple of grumbling artistic temperaments.

It's not that unusual. I've never seen it done with a thurible unless there is a particularly large congregation present, but I have seen it done many times with a simple bowl and a charcoal - not exactly the kind of thing that would produce clouds of the second coming to choke up precious lungs.

[ 25. October 2014, 22:17: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

I know St John's very well [Biased]

Yes it's the norm to have incense at the said offices. It's burned for the Benedictus at Morning Prayer and the Magnificat at Evening Prayer. Incense isn't used at Low Mass though. The lingering smell of incense would have been from Morning Prayer that immediately preceded the Mass.

[ 25. October 2014, 22:20: Message edited by: Spike ]

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

Thanks everyone. The cost of professional recording space for a choir our size would be prohibitive, plus the acoustic at st John's is near perfect. We also need an organ and St John's has a great one.

As I said, I have no issue with the amount of incense, but wondered if this practice was common. I'm lucky in that incense seems to clear my lungs rather than having any adverse effect. Other people grumble though as singers are wont to do!

Spike - complete tangent, but do you know anything about the building work at st John's? Some of the cracks in the walls look very alarming.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
As I said, I have no issue with the amount of incense, but wondered if this practice was common. I'm lucky in that incense seems to clear my lungs rather than having any adverse effect. Other people grumble though as singers are wont to do!

Even a few members of the regular choir have been known to complain about the incense sometimes!

quote:

Spike - complete tangent, but do you know anything about the building work at st John's? Some of the cracks in the walls look very alarming.

Yes, those cracks are scary aren't they? This is only to be expected if you build a large church on the side of a hill on London clay!

There is a massive fundraising campaign going on (because massive funds are needed) and this has been going on for years, but all being well, underpinning work will be starting sometime in the next 12 months.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I can see that the smoke when the incense is actually burning might affect singing. But once the smoke has gone away and there's just the smell lingering, does that really affect singers who claim to have hypersensitive lungs?

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

It is possible to be allergic to it, but I think there's a fair amount of fussiness involved as well.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I can see that the smoke when the incense is actually burning might affect singing. But once the smoke has gone away and there's just the smell lingering, does that really affect singers who claim to have hypersensitive lungs?

Exactly. The daily offices are held in a side chapel and the use of incense is how Fletcher Christian described it. As already mentioned, St John's is a large building and the smoke disperses very quickly.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

On the whole incense doesn't affect the lungs, although a very small number may find an adverse affect on the upper respiratory tract.

As for people in a choir being adversely affected: I think you'll find the choirs of the Oratory and Westminster Cathedral have no such problems, so why should yours be any different.

IME incense is great for helping to clear the sinuses...

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

When we have our periodic Evensongs (next one for All Saints!) incense is burned during the Mag, although only from a brazier - no thuribles or incensing the altar, alas.

At a Low Mass would be unusual, although I've seen places burn a little bit before hand - I suppose just to give a suitably 'holy' smell...

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

I have a "take" on this subject. A church where I am partly on home ground, which does not use incense on Sundays, has its use confined to weekday festivals. Lately, the festival Mass has usually been spoken and I am normally the thurifer for these liturgical observances.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I went to an ordination where the the thurifers clearly had special training, possibly at a cheerleader academy. I have never, ever seen a censing like that in my life. Did you know that it is possible to whiz the censer horizontally over the heads of the startled congregation in a big circle? If you do it hard and fast enough the lid of the censer does not fly off and the hot embers do not sprinkle the congregants.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
The choir I sing with are recording a cd this weekend,using a large, high Anglican church in south London (st John's upper norwood).

We were there last night and started again this morning after their morning low Mass. I was surprised to smell that incense had obviously been used at low mass. I've never come across that before even at places like all saints Margaret Street or Saint Albans Holborn.

Even more surprising was a smell of incense after said evening prayer (no benediction).

Is this normal?!

I think St John's Upper Norwood has a long tradition of extensive use of incense. I can remember being in the front row of the choir during a Saturday evening Evensong and getting the full benefit of the passing thurible, so this would be over 40 years ago - before my voice broke.

We were a visiting choir from a nearby school, and not all of us were used to incense.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

It's a lovely church (and until recently with a woman vicar, cheer, cheer) but I'm always worried about it sliding down the hill and the netting in the aisles.

Like most junkies, I no longer get any buzz from a fix that others would find impressive.

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

To a layman's eye (I'm no structural engineer) the cracks look very alarming. Fresh air was visible through one of them...

In the end the incense was a very valuable illustration for one of the pieces we were recording: 'Vidi Speciosam' by Victoria written for the feast of the Assumption, including the image of the Virgin ascending like a pillar of smoke from incense of myrrh and frankincense. Very apt!

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Our place occasionally swings the smoke at a weekday said Mass (usually at a Cell of Our Lady of Walsingham service held in the Lady Chapel - where else? - with perhaps just 10-12 present). We refer to such services as a 'Solemn Low Mass with Hymns and Incense'.....

I must say that I rather like the idea of offering incense (without much ceremonial) at the daily Office - maybe we could do that, even if only on high days and holy days!

Ian J.

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Fresh air was visible through one of them.

Really?

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

Yep. Next to the window tracery in the south west corner!

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

It couldn't have been that fresh if you could see it.

Posted by Devils Advocate (# 16484) on :

"I went to an ordination where the the thurifers clearly had special training, possibly at a cheerleader academy. I have never, ever seen a censing like that in my life. Did you know that it is possible to whiz the censer horizontally over the heads of the startled congregation in a big circle? If you do it hard and fast enough the lid of the censer does not fly off and the hot embers do not sprinkle the congregants"

I was always told this sort of "Thurification" was not on ( Like 360 Degree Cartwheels)

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Except on Trinity Sunday

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

... when, if you go to the right church, you'll find THREE thurifers [Yipee]

Posted by Chap (# 4926) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I went to an ordination where the the thurifers clearly had special training, possibly at a cheerleader academy. I have never, ever seen a censing like that in my life. Did you know that it is possible to whiz the censer horizontally over the heads of the startled congregation in a big circle? If you do it hard and fast enough the lid of the censer does not fly off and the hot embers do not sprinkle the congregants.

A few years ago a Soldier asked if he could be the thurifer for our chapel service. I said that he could but asked if he knew how or needed any instruction. He replied that he knew what he was doing - that everywhere he went he volunteered to be the thurifer and then added - "I can do the helicopter". He was put to work and did a great job for us which included spinning the thurible over his head.

Much later he admitted that he once did it without inspecting the chain, the chain broke, the thurible flew apart landing in a pew and setting a cushion on fire.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I would support more incense simply to ensure thurifers like that get work.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
On the whole incense doesn't affect the lungs, although a very small number may find an adverse affect on the upper respiratory tract.

As for people in a choir being adversely affected: I think you'll find the choirs of the Oratory and Westminster Cathedral have no such problems, so why should yours be any different.

IME incense is great for helping to clear the sinuses...

Actually, it is possible to be allergic to incense, but not necessarily all incense. I love incense, but am horrifically allergic to one particular version. But I'm also horrifically allergic to a lot of other things. (Asthmatic who also gets eczema)

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