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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Quicunque Vult
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Eirenist
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# 13343
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Posted
Is there any church, anywhere, that still recites the Athanasian Creed as prescribed by the BCP? Just curious.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
S Thomas, Huron St, Toronto. S Barnabas in Ottawa, both on Trinity Sunday. S Alban's used to, but....
I have suggested that it be sung as an anthem, but my choir connexions feel that it would take up to 20 minutes and while congregations could take it, most clergy couldn't.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
God help us, but it was recited in full at our regular BCP Matins on Trinity Sunday.
(Not our main act of worship, I hasten to add, but a said service - which usually includes all those unctuous State Prayers - held in a side chapel an hour before our Parish Mass.)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Is there any church, anywhere, that still recites the Athanasian Creed as prescribed by the BCP? Just curious.
Chanted to psalm tone VIII.g in procession at Ascension, Chicago, on Trinity Sunday.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
Said every Trinity Sunday at St. David's College Chapel in Lampeter. But at least not once a month, which was more or less the original intention.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
I've seen it used at Evensong for Ttinity Sunday as well.
It is worth bearing in mind that the BCP of 1662 does not limit its use to Trinity Sunday only, oh no. It is NATO be used at Morning Prayer on no fewer than twelve other occasions, including Christmas ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
So, bonus points for anyone who incorporates it ino a Christingle service!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
In place of the Nicene Creed, it is said in unison by all standing at the principal mass on Trinity Sunday at Our Lady of Hardwork.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Ritual Notes urges against this, but I confess I have never seen why it shouldn't be. I'm sure there's no harm in having both the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds in one service, but it doesn't seem to be something to be required.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Eirenist
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# 13343
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Posted
As long as they truly believe that anyone who does not accept the whole of the QV 'pure and undefiled' will 'without doubt . . . perish everlastingly'.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
As long as they truly believe that anyone who does not accept the whole of the QV 'pure and undefiled' will 'without doubt . . . perish everlastingly'.
Well, it would thin out the ranks a bit.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Trinity Sunday during full choral matins - as the main service too.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
Of course, despite the common English name for it, the QV isn't actually a creed at all, merely a statement of a solid Trinitarian position which also happens, like the Three Persons, to be incomprehensible to most people.
As one very-well educated doctor remarked to me after one Trinity Sunday service, 'What the Dickens was all that about?'
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Of course, despite the common English name for it, the QV isn't actually a creed at all, merely a statement of a solid Trinitarian position which also happens, like the Three Persons, to be incomprehensible to most people.
As one very-well educated doctor remarked to me after one Trinity Sunday service, 'What the Dickens was all that about?'
My problem with it is not the theology it expounds so much as the opening insistence on salvation by intellectual assent to said theology ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Of course, despite the common English name for it, the QV isn't actually a creed at all, merely a statement of a solid Trinitarian position which also happens, like the Three Persons, to be incomprehensible to most people.
As one very-well educated doctor remarked to me after one Trinity Sunday service, 'What the Dickens was all that about?'
My problem with it is not the theology it expounds so much as the opening insistence on salvation by intellectual assent to said theology
Except that isn't what it says:
quote:
Quicumque vult salvus esse ante omnia opus est ut teneat catholicam fidem.
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I've just read it, in the 1662 version, for the first time in years. I think I'd cross my fingers at the points insisting that this is essential for salvation- I don't care to limit God's options in that way- but otherwise I think this is really rather beautiful and elegant and actually more or less understandable, in a poetic way.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Of course, despite the common English name for it, the QV isn't actually a creed at all, merely a statement of a solid Trinitarian position which also happens, like the Three Persons, to be incomprehensible to most people.
As one very-well educated doctor remarked to me after one Trinity Sunday service, 'What the Dickens was all that about?'
My problem with it is not the theology it expounds so much as the opening insistence on salvation by intellectual assent to said theology
Except that isn't what it says:
quote:
Quicumque vult salvus esse ante omnia opus est ut teneat catholicam fidem.
How would you gloss "Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternum peribit.", other than "believe the lot of it or fry?"
I grant my translation is free, but the more accurate "Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. " says much the same thing.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Of course, despite the common English name for it, the QV isn't actually a creed at all, merely a statement of a solid Trinitarian position which also happens, like the Three Persons, to be incomprehensible to most people.
As one very-well educated doctor remarked to me after one Trinity Sunday service, 'What the Dickens was all that about?'
My problem with it is not the theology it expounds so much as the opening insistence on salvation by intellectual assent to said theology
Except that isn't what it says:
quote:
Quicumque vult salvus esse ante omnia opus est ut teneat catholicam fidem.
How would you gloss "Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternum peribit.", other than "believe the lot of it or fry?"
I grant my translation is free, but the more accurate "Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. " says much the same thing.
And faith is thus turned into a work!
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
So, bonus points for anyone who incorporates it ino a Christingle service!
Get thee behind me...
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Of course, despite the common English name for it, the QV isn't actually a creed at all, merely a statement of a solid Trinitarian position which also happens, like the Three Persons, to be incomprehensible to most people.
As one very-well educated doctor remarked to me after one Trinity Sunday service, 'What the Dickens was all that about?'
My problem with it is not the theology it expounds so much as the opening insistence on salvation by intellectual assent to said theology
Except that isn't what it says:
quote:
Quicumque vult salvus esse ante omnia opus est ut teneat catholicam fidem.
How would you gloss "Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternum peribit.", other than "believe the lot of it or fry?"
I grant my translation is free, but the more accurate "Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. " says much the same thing.
Your point was that the believing saved one: not that you could be saved without believing. My point was that the Athanasian Symbol sees right belief as preliminary to the work of salvation. You cannot, as the Symbol says, be saved in Error, and I wouldn't claim it said otherwise.
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
OH I see. Well, either way, I don't hold with it. God does not, IMV, require a pass on having right theology as a pre-requisite to salvation.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Surely a lot of headaches could be saved by simply omitting the first two "verses" of the Creed (or even just the second). Neither of the other two "ecumenical creeds" are typically recited along with epistemological self-claims. The actual content is thoroughly sound.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
Is the Athanasian creed even a creed? The other creeds start with "I believe" - "Credo". If you start with "believe this or else", it's a completely different liturgical act.
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
Is the Athanasian creed even a creed? The other creeds start with "I believe" - "Credo". If you start with "believe this or else", it's a completely different liturgical act.
There is only one creed.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Which, precisely, do you not accept as creeds out of the Apostles', the Nicene, Acts 8:37, 1 Cor 12:3, and 1 John 4:2?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
The Biblical passages you cite look like creeds, Adam, but what evidence do we have that they were used the way we use the Creed?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Rather than chant/recite/say the Athanasian Creed, why not sing Handel's Messiah? Much better music and it, too, states our belief in everything needed for salvation. Not much longer, either.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Pulsator Organorum Ineptus
Shipmate
# 2515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I've just read it, in the 1662 version, for the first time in years. I think I'd cross my fingers at the points insisting that this is essential for salvation- I don't care to limit God's options in that way- but otherwise I think this is really rather beautiful and elegant and actually more or less understandable, in a poetic way.
In the sense of Paul Dirac's famous statement about poetry? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 695 | From: Bronteland | Registered: Mar 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Fine physicist but AIUI a man of a rather narrow understanding outside his field.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Wonder about the other days it's appointed like Christmas or Saind Andre'ws?
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
Today being Advent Sunday we passed by St Andrew with only a brief mention, but he will feature in his own service on Tuesday. But I very much doubt if the QV will be said during it!
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
We, too, use it every Trinity Sunday.
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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