Ship of Fools: Quicunque Vult

Thread: Quicunque Vult Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

Is there any church, anywhere, that still recites the Athanasian Creed as prescribed by the BCP? Just curious.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

S Thomas, Huron St, Toronto. S Barnabas in Ottawa, both on Trinity Sunday. S Alban's used to, but....

I have suggested that it be sung as an anthem, but my choir connexions feel that it would take up to 20 minutes and while congregations could take it, most clergy couldn't.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

God help us, but it was recited in full at our regular BCP Matins on Trinity Sunday.

(Not our main act of worship, I hasten to add, but a said service - which usually includes all those unctuous State Prayers - held in a side chapel an hour before our Parish Mass.)

Ian J.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Is there any church, anywhere, that still recites the Athanasian Creed as prescribed by the BCP? Just curious.

Chanted to psalm tone VIII.g in procession at Ascension, Chicago, on Trinity Sunday.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

We say it every Trinity--but we're Lutherans.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

Said every Trinity Sunday at St. David's College Chapel in Lampeter. But at least not once a month, which was more or less the original intention.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

I've seen it used at Evensong for Ttinity Sunday as well.

It is worth bearing in mind that the BCP of 1662 does not limit its use to Trinity Sunday only, oh no. It is NATO be used at Morning Prayer on no fewer than twelve other occasions, including Christmas [Ultra confused]

So, bonus points for anyone who incorporates it ino a Christingle service!

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

In place of the Nicene Creed, it is said in unison by all standing at the principal mass on Trinity Sunday at Our Lady of Hardwork.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

Ritual Notes urges against this, but I confess I have never seen why it shouldn't be. I'm sure there's no harm in having both the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds in one service, but it doesn't seem to be something to be required.

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

As long as they truly believe that anyone who does not accept the whole of the QV 'pure and undefiled' will 'without doubt . . . perish everlastingly'.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
As long as they truly believe that anyone who does not accept the whole of the QV 'pure and undefiled' will 'without doubt . . . perish everlastingly'.

Well, it would thin out the ranks a bit.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Trinity Sunday during full choral matins - as the main service too.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

Of course, despite the common English name for it, the QV isn't actually a creed at all, merely a statement of a solid Trinitarian position which also happens, like the Three Persons, to be incomprehensible to most people.

As one very-well educated doctor remarked to me after one Trinity Sunday service, 'What the Dickens was all that about?'

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Of course, despite the common English name for it, the QV isn't actually a creed at all, merely a statement of a solid Trinitarian position which also happens, like the Three Persons, to be incomprehensible to most people.

As one very-well educated doctor remarked to me after one Trinity Sunday service, 'What the Dickens was all that about?'

My problem with it is not the theology it expounds so much as the opening insistence on salvation by intellectual assent to said theology [Biased]

Posted by Vade Mecum (# 17688) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Of course, despite the common English name for it, the QV isn't actually a creed at all, merely a statement of a solid Trinitarian position which also happens, like the Three Persons, to be incomprehensible to most people.

As one very-well educated doctor remarked to me after one Trinity Sunday service, 'What the Dickens was all that about?'
My problem with it is not the theology it expounds so much as the opening insistence on salvation by intellectual assent to said theology

Except that isn't what it says:

quote:
Quicumque vult salvus esse ante omnia opus est ut teneat catholicam fidem.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I've just read it, in the 1662 version, for the first time in years. I think I'd cross my fingers at the points insisting that this is essential for salvation- I don't care to limit God's options in that way- but otherwise I think this is really rather beautiful and elegant and actually more or less understandable, in a poetic way.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Of course, despite the common English name for it, the QV isn't actually a creed at all, merely a statement of a solid Trinitarian position which also happens, like the Three Persons, to be incomprehensible to most people.

As one very-well educated doctor remarked to me after one Trinity Sunday service, 'What the Dickens was all that about?'
My problem with it is not the theology it expounds so much as the opening insistence on salvation by intellectual assent to said theology
Except that isn't what it says:

quote:
Quicumque vult salvus esse ante omnia opus est ut teneat catholicam fidem.

How would you gloss "Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternum peribit.", other than "believe the lot of it or fry?"

I grant my translation is free, but the more accurate "Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. " says much the same thing.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Of course, despite the common English name for it, the QV isn't actually a creed at all, merely a statement of a solid Trinitarian position which also happens, like the Three Persons, to be incomprehensible to most people.

As one very-well educated doctor remarked to me after one Trinity Sunday service, 'What the Dickens was all that about?'
My problem with it is not the theology it expounds so much as the opening insistence on salvation by intellectual assent to said theology
Except that isn't what it says:

quote:
Quicumque vult salvus esse ante omnia opus est ut teneat catholicam fidem.
How would you gloss "Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternum peribit.", other than "believe the lot of it or fry?"

I grant my translation is free, but the more accurate "Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. " says much the same thing.

And faith is thus turned into a work!

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:
So, bonus points for anyone who incorporates it ino a Christingle service!

Get thee behind me... [Biased]

Posted by Vade Mecum (# 17688) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Of course, despite the common English name for it, the QV isn't actually a creed at all, merely a statement of a solid Trinitarian position which also happens, like the Three Persons, to be incomprehensible to most people.

As one very-well educated doctor remarked to me after one Trinity Sunday service, 'What the Dickens was all that about?'
My problem with it is not the theology it expounds so much as the opening insistence on salvation by intellectual assent to said theology
Except that isn't what it says:

quote:
Quicumque vult salvus esse ante omnia opus est ut teneat catholicam fidem.
How would you gloss "Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternum peribit.", other than "believe the lot of it or fry?"

I grant my translation is free, but the more accurate "Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. " says much the same thing.

Your point was that the believing saved one: not that you could be saved without believing. My point was that the Athanasian Symbol sees right belief as preliminary to the work of salvation. You cannot, as the Symbol says, be saved in Error, and I wouldn't claim it said otherwise.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

OH I see. Well, either way, I don't hold with it. God does not, IMV, require a pass on having right theology as a pre-requisite to salvation.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

Surely a lot of headaches could be saved by simply omitting the first two "verses" of the Creed (or even just the second). Neither of the other two "ecumenical creeds" are typically recited along with epistemological self-claims. The actual content is thoroughly sound.

Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on :

Is the Athanasian creed even a creed? The other creeds start with "I believe" - "Credo". If you start with "believe this or else", it's a completely different liturgical act.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
Is the Athanasian creed even a creed? The other creeds start with "I believe" - "Credo". If you start with "believe this or else", it's a completely different liturgical act.

There is only one creed.

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

[Confused]

Which, precisely, do you not accept as creeds out of the Apostles', the Nicene, Acts 8:37, 1 Cor 12:3, and 1 John 4:2?

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

The Biblical passages you cite look like creeds, Adam, but what evidence do we have that they were used the way we use the Creed?

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Rather than chant/recite/say the Athanasian Creed, why not sing Handel's Messiah? Much better music and it, too, states our belief in everything needed for salvation. Not much longer, either.

Posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus (# 2515) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I've just read it, in the 1662 version, for the first time in years. I think I'd cross my fingers at the points insisting that this is essential for salvation- I don't care to limit God's options in that way- but otherwise I think this is really rather beautiful and elegant and actually more or less understandable, in a poetic way.

In the sense of Paul Dirac's famous statement about poetry? [Devil]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Fine physicist but AIUI a man of a rather narrow understanding outside his field.

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

Wonder about the other days it's appointed like Christmas or Saind Andre'ws?

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

Today being Advent Sunday we passed by St Andrew with only a brief mention, but he will feature in his own service on Tuesday. But I very much doubt if the QV will be said during it!

Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :

We, too, use it every Trinity Sunday.

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