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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Funerals and Committals
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Daffodil
Apprentice
# 13164
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Posted
My mind is currently pondering on funerals and committals - cheery subject I know, but it is Black Friday ![[Biased]](wink.gif) .
I wondered what thoughts people had on the different purposes of a church service and a crem service, and how much should be duplicated between the two, in order to ensure that all get the chance to say farewell to the departed, regardless of their faith.
I am also interested to know what parts of a funeral service you find helpful and why and any other experiences you may like to share.
Posts: 19 | Registered: Nov 2007
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
A crem service can have the same purpose as a church service imv, if it's a Christian service and meant to commend the deceased to the mercy of God in prayer, and commit the mortal remains to the earth in the hope of resurrection to eternal life, through the love of Jesus Christ our Lord.
It is for the comfort and hope of those who are bereaved as well as for the benefit of the deceased.
If there is to be a church service as well as a crem service, it depends upon which way around as to how much to include where. The church service may end at the commendation, with a short committal at the crem afterwards. Or there may be a thanksgiving service at a later date in the church, in which case the whole service may have been carried out at the crem with much repeated at the thanksgiving.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Not sure how relevant this is to the OP but the night before my mum's funeral (which was expected to draw, and did draw, a large congregation) we had her brought into church in her (closed) coffin and said compline. That was very good- an opportunity for something more intimate as well as the more public funeral.
[ 28. November 2014, 16:13: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
I have a feeling this may have come up before, but are services at a crematorium common in the UK? In my experience, they are unheard of in the US, unless it is comparable to a service in the chapel of a funeral home here. At least where I am, crematoria tend to be separate facilities with no chapel or the like.
Here, there is typically either a service at the church or at a funeral home, but not at both places. There also may be a committal—burial, internment, inurnment, scattering, what-have-you. In the case of a church service, the committal may take place prior to the service rather than after it.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes. There may be a service in church, followed by a brief "committal" at the graveside or in the crematorium chapel. Most people who are not professing church members, especially in urban areas, will have just a service (20-30 minutes) in the crematorium chapel. This is still usually Christian "by default" although they can be of any faith or Humanist.
My mother, who retired to a Norfolk village, so hated the anonymity of the Crematorium, plus the fact that it was 20 miles away, stipulated in her will that her funeral be in the parish church (which she attended) followed by burial in the churchyard.
I have never come across any kind of service at the funeral home (a term not used in the UK, by the way - undertakers do usually have a small "chapel of rest" but this is used for family members who wish to view the deceased - however this IME is uncommon).
[ 28. November 2014, 17:11: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
One of the things I am getting used to (slowly) in Canada is how the cremation usually happens very soon after death and there is no ceremony or service. Just last week, I was asked to go and visit someone whose husband had died - she wanted me to come and pray with her (in her home) as her husband's bodies were being cremated. There will be a memorial service later - quite possibly with no ashes present. I've just taken such a memorial service (in the local Royal Legion branch).
Back to the UK situation....
If there has been a service in church, then the committal at the crem doesn't really have to contain much. The problem (for me) was trying to make the crem committal a meaningful affair without repeating what has already been done. I tried to see the committal as part of the whole funeral service - rather than as a separate event. So a brief biblical reading to help resettle people, and then the committal and blessing. Short and (hopefully) sweet.
I think a lot depends on the specific situation. Are most of the people in the church going to go on to the crem? Or will it be just close family only? Or even just one or two people?
I am aware that in some parts of the UK, the logistical nightmare of actually getting to a crem means that often only the priest goes on - or perhaps just the Funeral Director. I think that this is why it is so difficult to make hard and fast rules; so much depends on variables like the locations of church and crem and the requirements and desires of the family.
In my personal experience, it was far more common to have the service in church first and the committal later. But once or twice, I did have the situation where the family wanted the committal done first, with just close family attending and then have a memorial service in church afterwards. At that point, you do need to think carefully about what you do in each location. But from a C of E perspective, the Common Worship resources are pretty comprehensive and helpful.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Apart from the above (I missed the edit window), I'd go along with what Raptor Eye said. IME some (but not all) families like to have a "public" service in the church, followed by a committal at the crematorium just for close family members. There can be some confusion as to who is expected to go to this, if it is not explained clearly.
PS Oscar got in between my two posts!
[ 28. November 2014, 17:15: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I have never come across any kind of service at the funeral home (a term not used in the UK, by the way - undertakers do usually have a small "chapel of rest" but this is used for family members who wish to view the deceased - however this IME is uncommon).
In my time in West Yorkshire, it was VERY common to have a service in the Funeral Home, followed by committal at the crem. In fact, you used to have to fight the Funeral Directors hard to get them to arrange a service in the church, even if the deceased person was a regular churchgoer. Most of the FDs I was dealing with had a chapel that could take 50 people or so. It used to be really frustrating when the service was booked for the chapel and yet you knew that 100+ people would be turning up.
But I am not aware that such traditions exist elsewhere (not even in the rest of Yorkshire!)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes, local customs do vary - for instance, when my father-in-law died in Glasgow, the family there insisted on his cremation taking place much sooner than has become the norm "down south" - much to my wife's distress. As far as they were concerned, it was the "proper" thing to do.
The Crematorium staff had to be on their best behaviour - my brother-in-law is their boss!
[ 28. November 2014, 17:28: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Daffodil
Apprentice
# 13164
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Posted
quote:
Not sure how relevant this is to the OP but the night before my mum's funeral (which was expected to draw, and did draw, a large congregation) we had her brought into church in her (closed) coffin and said compline. That was very good- an opportunity for something more intimate as well as the more public funeral.
Thank you for sharing that, it sounds beautiful, and that surprises me as I am usually more comfortable with more modern and less structured liturgy
quote:
My mother, who retired to a Norfolk village, so hated the anonymity of the Crematorium, plus the fact that it was 20 miles away, stipulated in her will that her funeral be in the parish church (which she attended) followed by burial in the churchyard.
Your Mother sounds very sensible! Fortunately we have a very beautiful crem, with a large window looking over countryside.
Posts: 19 | Registered: Nov 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
One of the things I am getting used to (slowly) in Canada is how the cremation usually happens very soon after death and there is no ceremony or service.
This is true, and became more common as funerals rose in cost. An older practice was that bodies were held by the funeral home or in the case of ashes, the family until spring when the ground was thawed enough to dig a hole. Burial would occur when the funeral home called that they had been digging. The alternative was to thaw the ground, usually with a tiger torch (a flame thrower thing attached to a propane tank). Often ashes these days are not committed at all, but thrown into water (they don't actually scatter), without a precise location.
Recent funerals I've been to, the family has collected the ashes themselves from the funeral home, sometimes having made their own container, and bring them themselves to the church. Cremation and do it yourself transport can reduce costs to less than $900, with church and related costs often nil for parishioners in rural churches. Additional funds can be donated to the deceased's preferred charities.
It's also moderately common for licensed lay readers to preside. Which can be okay if you've someone to call, and I should say, only if you've someone to call for supervision and guidance.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
That sounds like the Redditch Crem, Daffodil, which was always a pleasure to take a service in, with a real organist playing a real organ. Next best in Worcestershire is the Stourbridge Crem, which was smaller and much older, with no window and no view (huge cemetery around it); it did have an organist though, right up by the bier. Worst is Worcester Crem, which has hymn tunes played by a karaoke machine (the staff hate it to be called that) and a bizarre shoulder-high catafalque--evidently Housman's Athlete ('home they brought you, shoulder high') had his funeral arranged by a Worcester funeral director.
I don't want to go on at length--but it is quite possible to give someone a proper send-off in the 20 minutes given at any of these places. It requires thought and preparation though, and there's no margin for error. But then there isn't any margin for error for the officiant at a funeral.
Personally, I'm hoping for a requiem mass with black vestments, aspergings galore, clouds of incense, and a choir---but if what I get is 20 minutes in a Crem and it's done well, that will be fine too.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
People here in Canada were astonished when I told them about the 20 minute Crem funerals. They really didn't see how it could be possible!
Crem only funerals have always (for me) been unsatisfactory simply because you have to squeeze everything into a very small time slot. I have always much preferred a service in church, where you didn't have to be continually looking at your watch or worrying that the giver of the Eulogy was rambling on too long.
Among my favourite funerals (if that is possible) was the one where the deceased was of West Indian origin. It was a burial, rather than a cremation, and all the men took it in turns to fill in the grave, after the committal, which the women sang gospel songs. I left after half an hour of this and they looked set to go on for another 30 minutes. The poor cemetery guys - standing by to complete the burial - were looking a trifle resigned.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
BTW
Perhaps we ought to have a separate thread for "Crematoria I have known and loved (or hated)". I can certainly think of a few crems that fit in to both camps.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The (excellent hard working) vicar of my previous church made the point that even for non-churchgoers the good thing about having a funeral in church rather than the crem was that it was in a space that was used for something other than funerals and had connotations other than death.
Whatever your personal faith or lack of it.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Here, there is typically either a service at the church or at a funeral home, but not at both places. There also may be a committal—burial, internment, inurnment, scattering, what-have-you. In the case of a church service, the committal may take place prior to the service rather than after it.
Very different from my experience in the US! Could be a Catholic thing, could be a Midwest thing.
In my experience, about half of the people I bury have a wake service the day before. This is almost always at the funeral home, and is generally a rosary with some opening rites and closing rites (including a homillette about grief and prayer, at least when I do it!).* About half my funerals are in church, about half at the funeral home. All the church ones and most of the funeral home ones conclude with a graveside committal.
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* We have a 'proper' wake service in the books, but I've only ever seen it done for priests and religious. When people first experience it, they always comment on how much they like it, but grieving relatives have almost never heard of it and want a rosary. I try to at least use its closing rites in place of the normal conclusion of a rosary.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Gosh, I wish people in the C of E used the rosary as much as I do. I'd love it if they would say the rosary for me the eve of my funeral.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Here in the UK, in my experience, most people just have a crematorium chapel service - even lifelong church members. They get round the 20 minute time slot by booking a double slot. Full services are easily done - organist, etc (even in our cases a brass band).
I would rather just have the service and committal in the one place.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Among my favourite funerals (if that is possible) was the one where the deceased was of West Indian origin. It was a burial, rather than a cremation, and all the men took it in turns to fill in the grave, after the committal, which the women sang gospel songs. I left after half an hour of this and they looked set to go on for another 30 minutes. The poor cemetery guys - standing by to complete the burial - were looking a trifle resigned.
I've only done one like that - years ago. The best bit came at the end, when they ripped all the floral arrangements to pieces and covered the grave with the flowers - lovely!
[ 28. November 2014, 22:15: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Our church tends to have a full Requiem Eucharist at the church after which just the family go to the cemetry for either a cremation or burial service. Most of the congregation stays back at the church hall for the 'wake'. When my father died, we had a family only attended cremation service, we then went to lunch at my father's favourite restaurant, and then a memorial service for all in the afternoon followed by afternoon tea in the church hall. This was all in keeping with Dad's wishes as he didn't want a coffin in the church. Mum decided she wanted the same for her funeral and so we complied. This was all very satisfacory, although I would opt for the Requiem Eucharist follew by the cremation. I intensely dislike services at funeral homes where there is often syrupy canned music and a feeling that people are being processed. Unfortunately the large non church going population tends to be stuck with the funeral home arrangements.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I'd say that over 80% of services here are now carried out at a crematorium/cemetery chapel, but very few of the balance at the undertakers - they would be in a church. Not many, even of those in a church, are called funerals any more. They are all called something along the lines of a Celebration of the Life of X. We have each given instructions that we want a Requiem and also have set out the hymns we want - and a firm direction that there be no separate eulogy, just a sermon and no more than a few minutes of photos while some of the German Requiem is played.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Here, there is typically either a service at the church or at a funeral home, but not at both places. There also may be a committal—burial, internment, inurnment, scattering, what-have-you. In the case of a church service, the committal may take place prior to the service rather than after it.
Very different from my experience in the US! Could be a Catholic thing, could be a Midwest thing.
In my experience, about half of the people I bury have a wake service the day before. This is almost always at the funeral home, and is generally a rosary with some opening rites and closing rites (including a homillette about grief and prayer, at least when I do it!).* About half my funerals are in church, about half at the funeral home. All the church ones and most of the funeral home ones conclude with a graveside committal.
Substitute "visitation" at the funeral home for "wake service" and you have what happens around here the night before the funeral. And among Catholics and many others (including Baptists and Episcopalians, in my experience), the graveside committal will be after the funeral, though whether it is immediately after will depend on where the burial is. Often, it is in another town.
Burial or disposition of ashes prior to the funeral seems to be found mainly in some mainline Protestant groups, though it is by no means universal. I see it most among Presbyterians, though it may be that I'm more aware it because I am Presbyterian. It still may not be a majority practice, but it isn't at all uncommon for family and friends to gather at the cemetery for burial and then to go to the church for the service
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
It isn't at all uncommon for family and friends to gather at the cemetery for burial and then to go to the church for the service
This seems to be becoming more common here in the UK, with the committal being more for "family" and the service for "everyone". Personally I don't like it as it drops the mourners straight into the most difficult part of the ritual, while other people may feel a bit cheated of the opportunity to say farewell. However it works well in practical terms, avoiding that awkward gap between service and lunch/tea while the family goes off from the church to the crematorium and everyone else hangs around.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
When I was in Northern Ireland for my first appointment in the late 1980s, if someone died on Monday morning they were in the ground on Wednesday!
The night before the burial the coffin is in the house, open for all to see, and the whole neighbourhood comes in to gawp at the body - sorry, 'pay their respects' and everyone sits round the front room talking while the women make piles of sandwiches.
The next day I would go to the house and people would stand in all the downstairs rooms and in the front garden or on the pavement. The ministers (me) would stand with the immediate family in the room with the open coffin and conduct a 15 minute service. Then, as the family moved outside the undertakers would come in, screw the lid down and carry the coffin out of the house to the hearse.
Then the hearse would be driven to the end of the street or for a respectable distance with all the men (and only the men) following. One funeral I did, as the hearse drove away with the male family members in tow, the daughter of the old lady who died was restrained by the other women and was screaming from the doorstep, 'Mammy, Mammy' as she watched.
When the hearse stops a hundred yards away, there is a mad scramble as all the mourners who will go to the burial rush to get in their cars and they all drive in convoy to the cemetery. The committal at the graveside lasts 5 minutes.
That scenario is changing as at one funeral I did, there were women and children at the graveside too.
[ 29. November 2014, 08:45: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
It isn't an awkward gap if the family realize that they are not expected to be the hosts to the people who have come to pay respects. Someone else traditionally welcomed people to the tea while the family went off to the cemetery or crematorium. The committal itself is extremely short, so we're not talking about a long gap at all.
My two objections to having the committal first, followed by some kind of a service of thanksgiving in the church, are that it makes the process of mourning and commending to God more of an abstract one, separating all that from the thanksgiving for the life. They're better together, and they're better done in the presence of the coffined body, in my opinion. In addition, it seems that a committal followed by a service takes a much bigger chunk out of my day than a funeral followed by a committal. This is because the family (or the funeral director) usually likes to have a gap of at least an hour between the former and the latter.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
We had something unusual to do the other day - a member of our little church plant at a local sheltered housing unit died, and the residents asked for some sort of service to be held before the hearse left the unit for the crematorium.
So, with full agreement of the deceased's daughter and family, a short liturgy was held at the hearse (in the public street - nearby builders leaving off work for the time in respect), using the C of E's provision for Those Not Able To Attend The Funeral (suitable prayers, a short Bible reading, Lord's Prayer, the Nunc Dimittis, and a Commendation and Blessing), with liberal sprinkling of the coffin with Holy Water, before the family went off to the crematorium.
All very seemly, edifying, and well-received - and possibly becoming more common now, as more people in the UK die in nursing homes etc. rather than at home.......trust the good ol' C of E, for all its faults, to come up with a most suitable form of service!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
We had something unusual to do the other day - a member of our little church plant at a local sheltered housing unit died, and the residents asked for some sort of service to be held before the hearse left the unit for the crematorium.
We have a liturgy for that. It's called "transfer." Rarely done, but I've seen it for two separate purposes. Our diocese is "bimodal" in its population, so when our diocesan bishop died, they had a visitation at our end of the diocese closing with a "Mass of transfer," and then wake and funeral at the other end of the diocese.
In my religious community, we have two cemeteries, one at Notre Dame and one at Stonehill college in Massachusetts (a hold-over from when the East Coast was a separate province), but only one skilled care nursing facility (at ND). Hence, we have a decent number of guys die at ND, but be buried out East, so we do the transfer liturgy, just as a service of the word, before shipping them out.
The only similar rite I've presided at is the one for soon after death, which I've done at the hospital.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
At my local cry we get an hour slot, which we rarely need. Very rarely in my case since it is a hundred mile round trip, and so nearly everyone has the service in the local church and if we do go for cremation (nearly all who do are "incomers") then it is just a brief committal. Most of my funerals are burials, and that is the usual pattern in these parts. We also aim to have all done within a week of the death and usually this is easily accomplished.
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Telford Crem was one of my favourite crems. Double slots of 40 mins were possible - some crems only permit the standard 20 mins - and one could relax a little, and the facilities and the location were outstanding.
In the crems where the single slots only are obtainable, it's always hoped the family will only go there for the committal, and do the main funeral ceremony at the church, to help ease the time restrictions. However, the problem with a two-part funeral is the possible disruption of the time it takes to travel from church to crem, all the re-organizing etc. It could possibly be a bit fracturing to the 'flow' of the day.
However, it's such a common procedure (or was in some of the places I lived and worked) it doesn't necessarily feel that way at all, and gives relatives the chance of a breather between ceremonies.
In terms of emotional impact, the committal is very often quite powerful. Not surprisingly, because that is when the curtain is closed (or the catafalque lowered etc) and the final prayers are said, the remains directly addressed, and so on. It's often the moment when next of kin really realize this is The End. Up to that point, we have some control over how the service 'feels', but I find that this is the moment when the event imposes its own solemnity on us, regardless of how we may have tried to personalize it.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
When I was in Northern Ireland for my first appointment in the late 1980s, if someone died on Monday morning they were in the ground on Wednesday!
The night before the burial the coffin is in the house, open for all to see, and the whole neighbourhood comes in to gawp at the body - sorry, 'pay their respects' and everyone sits round the front room talking while the women make piles of sandwiches.
The next day I would go to the house and people would stand in all the downstairs rooms and in the front garden or on the pavement. The ministers (me) would stand with the immediate family in the room with the open coffin and conduct a 15 minute service. Then, as the family moved outside the undertakers would come in, screw the lid down and carry the coffin out of the house to the hearse.
Then the hearse would be driven to the end of the street or for a respectable distance with all the men (and only the men) following. One funeral I did, as the hearse drove away with the male family members in tow, the daughter of the old lady who died was restrained by the other women and was screaming from the doorstep, 'Mammy, Mammy' as she watched.
When the hearse stops a hundred yards away, there is a mad scramble as all the mourners who will go to the burial rush to get in their cars and they all drive in convoy to the cemetery. The committal at the graveside lasts 5 minutes.
That scenario is changing as at one funeral I did, there were women and children at the graveside too.
At my grandfather's funeral in rural Staffordshire earlier this year we walked behind the hearse for the first mile down the lane.
We passed 2 farms and 3 houses. None of them came/had been invited/were notified of the funeral.
All had drawn their curtains.
Old ways die hard. (and the bush telegraph is bloody good)
When we got to the church, my brother and I, as bearers, sat on the opposite side of the church to the rest of our family, as that's where the bearers sit (this was after a conversation about whether we could be bearers or not because "it shouldn't be family")
Like I say, old ways die hard.
I also think you've not seen life till you've got drunk sitting round a corpse in an open coffin....
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Like I say, old ways die hard.
But do you think the same customs will be in evidence when you pass away, if that hopefully happens a long, long time from now?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Telford Crem was one of my favourite crems. Double slots of 40 mins were possible - some crems only permit the standard 20 mins - and one could relax a little, and the facilities and the location were outstanding.
Gosh. In all the places I've served, I've never known slots less than 30 minutes (mind you, that includes the time between funerals etc., so the service itself can only be 20 minutes maximum). Our two crematoria here give you 45 minutes between services, which is not only more relaxed but means that a funeral isn't queueing up behind the one in front.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Like I say, old ways die hard.
But do you think the same customs will be in evidence when you pass away, if that hopefully happens a long, long time from now?
Why not?
If anything, what we have now is a free-for-all. I'd go to a Star Trek funeral if that's what someone wanted. I see no reason why a high and dry prayer book funeral shouldn't happen in 50 years time or whenever. Quite the reverse actually. It's probably more likely in the future than it would have been in the "trendy" days of the ASB.
When you've got teenagers listening to1920s jazz, 1970s prog, AND Beyonce, I think the signs are really quite hopeful that society is going in an anything goes/ whatever they want direction.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I see no reason why a high and dry prayer book funeral shouldn't happen in 50 years time or whenever.
But who would want it?
Well, I suppose that in some parts of the country the 'old ways' linger longer than others. But I'm not sure if we can talk about a 'tradition' if it's simply one choice among a range of others. Isn't tradition something that develops and lives organically rather than being an option on a menu? Or perhaps tradition has been absorbed by postmodern realities, just like everything else.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I see no reason why a high and dry prayer book funeral shouldn't happen in 50 years time or whenever.
But who would want it?
I don't know. Me? Some other people too in all probability. Given in some of the villages round here it's still about 1890 now, I see no reason why in 50 years time it shouldn't be 1940. Cities are a snapshot of how most people live, but it doesn't mean the reality outside the cities isn't utterly different - thank God (IMO).
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I was going to say, me! I'm 25 now, 50 years til my death isn't unrealistic, though possibly a little on the low side. Not sure a requiem mass (as I would want) would count as 'high and dry' but I certainly want a fully 'by the book' funeral, no eulogy if possible. And this has nothing to do with city v country!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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chenab
Apprentice
# 18278
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Posted
In our experience there has been a rise in having committalls first followed by some sort of 'Thanksgiving Service' in the last few years. Some of that may well be due to crematoriums making the less used slots (including the earlier ones) cheaper than the more popular ones.
[ 29. November 2014, 20:33: Message edited by: chenab ]
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Ah, the new bodyless funeral.
Don't like 'em: feel wrong somehow.
When my parents died it was Requiem all the way, followed by private cremation with close family only. Memorial services were a couple of months later.
Where I play the churchyard has plenty of space and it is now cheaper to have a burial than go to the local crem which, because it has only 1 chapel and only works between 10 and 4, usually has a 3 week wait for all bar the 10/10.30 and 4pm slots so charges an eye-watering amount.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
It isn't at all uncommon for family and friends to gather at the cemetery for burial and then to go to the church for the service
This seems to be becoming more common here in the UK, with the committal being more for "family" and the service for "everyone". Personally I don't like it as it drops the mourners straight into the most difficult part of the ritual, while other people may feel a bit cheated of the opportunity to say farewell. However it works well in practical terms, avoiding that awkward gap between service and lunch/tea while the family goes off from the church to the crematorium and everyone else hangs around.
Agreed.
I am not sure what it is that has caused people to increasingly see the committal (whether burial or cremation) as "private". I can understand the situations where the practical difficulties of getting people to the crematorium (or cemetery) and then back for the "do" mean that only a few will actually go to the committal. And I can understand the desire for close family to have a "private moment" with the coffin. But keeping most people from the committal seems to me to be depriving them of an important part of the funeral and hence of the grieving process.
There is something significant about seeing the coffin descend into the ground or have the curtains closed at the crematorium - and I am not sure why it should be restricted just to close family.
On a tangent, where do people stand on curtains at the crem? Close or leave open? I have always preferred to close the curtains, as a symbol of departure. But I know that people tend to have rather fixed views about this, in both directions.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
There is clearly a pond divide about funeral customs, but as Oscar the Grouch and others have pointed out, there are big differences within the UK between regions, between town and country, etc.
One difference is the attitude to cremation. One view sees it as part of the process in the same way as embalming, making the coffin etc: in other words, something done by (non-religious) professionals behind the scenes. The 'committal' is then the interring of the ashes in some suitable place.
The general UK custom is to treat the crematorium as the place of committal, so that after the appropriate liturgy the coffin disappears behind curtains as an equivalent of the lowering into the grave.
I would have thought that the practice of relatives visiting the chapel of rest (= funeral home?) to view the body beforehand was quite common. But maybe it's a regional thing. Here in strongly Catholic Merseyside many such traditions remain strong. I have a vivid memory of riding beside the undertaker in the hearse, en route to the crem, while a (youngish) woman cycled past in the opposite direction and slowly and deliberately made the sign of the cross. It was like some scene from a medieval Flemish painting.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I see no reason why a high and dry prayer book funeral shouldn't happen in 50 years time or whenever.
But who would want it?
I don't know. Me? Some other people too in all probability. Given in some of the villages round here it's still about 1890 now, I see no reason why in 50 years time it shouldn't be 1940. Cities are a snapshot of how most people live, but it doesn't mean the reality outside the cities isn't utterly different - thank God (IMO).
Ah, well, of course, the kind of folk who post messages on the Ship would be keen!
My concern is that I might plan for a particular kind of funeral in 50 years' time, but younger relatives and friends who'd be tasked with organising it wouldn't necessarily understand my requests, because the culture would have changed so much.
However, as you suggest, the CofE nurtures its traditions in some parts of the country if not in others. We might see the phenomenon of the travelling funeral, whereby bodies are sent to particular districts where priests specialise in performing the sorts of rites that are no longer customary elsewhere! We might even have hired mourners who know all the hymns, etc.!
[ 29. November 2014, 21:46: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Polly Plummer
Shipmate
# 13354
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Posted
This conversation is bringing back memories of my father's funeral: church service was fine, family set off to the crematorium but the journey took a lot longer than expected, as a bridge on the route was closed and we had to make a detour. When we eventually got back, several friends we wanted to talk to, and all the food, had disappeared. I feel hungry every time I think about it!
Posts: 577 | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Oscar the Grouch quote:
I am not sure what it is that has caused people to increasingly see the committal (whether burial or cremation) as "private". I can understand the situations where the practical difficulties of getting people to the crematorium (or cemetery) and then back for the "do" mean that only a few will actually go to the committal. And I can understand the desire for close family to have a "private moment" with the coffin. But keeping most people from the committal seems to me to be depriving them of an important part of the funeral and hence of the grieving process.
There is something significant about seeing the coffin descend into the ground or have the curtains closed at the crematorium - and I am not sure why it should be restricted just to close family.
In the case of my parents (and other-half, for that matter) it was for two reasons: first, how to get 150 or so people into a crematorium chapel with seating for c75 people; second; the logistics of that number of people getting themselves through traffic the more than 10 miles to the nearest crematorium. It was certainly nothing at all to do with a 'private' moment with the box, I can assure you - we had that when the coffin was received in church the night before.
For my parents just us children and their surviving siblings went to the crem; for my other-half just me and the children. In both cases there were plenty of relatives left to welcome people to the wake where we joined them after a relatively short time.
In the case of the parents it was mainly family and very close friends at the funerals - the memorial services were rather larger affairs.
quote:
On a tangent, where do people stand on curtains at the crem? Close or leave open? I have always preferred to close the curtains, as a symbol of departure. But I know that people tend to have rather fixed views about this, in both directions.
I can't abide curtains at the crem - far too theatrical and there's always a nagging feeling that they'll open again for the dear departed to take one last curtain call...
IMO its preferable for the catafalque at a crem to have a loweriing mechanism so that the box is seen to go down, rather than the same level sliding arrangement at some crematoria.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I'm afraid I must disagree - I feel that the curtains give a sense of "closure" (sorry) or finality for the mourners; it also somehow seems disrespectful or even slightly sad just to turn one's back on the coffin and leave.
Mind you, one local Crem. has just a single curtain which takes nearly a minute to close - that's embarrassingly long!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I always tell the mourners that the curtains behind me will close - just to warn them that we've arrived at that dreaded part of the service. I nearly always say that closing these curtains reminds us of the times when, at the end of the day, we have closed the curtains against the evening'd darkness and said 'goodnight.' We are saying goodnight, but for Christians there is the resurrection morning to come...
I think using a domestic illustration seems to help and it takes the fear and despair out of the moment.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
People here in Canada were astonished when I told them about the 20 minute Crem funerals. They really didn't see how it could be possible!
Crem only funerals have always (for me) been unsatisfactory simply because you have to squeeze everything into a very small time slot. I have always much preferred a service in church, where you didn't have to be continually looking at your watch or worrying that the giver of the Eulogy was rambling on too long.
Among my favourite funerals (if that is possible) was the one where the deceased was of West Indian origin. It was a burial, rather than a cremation, and all the men took it in turns to fill in the grave, after the committal, which the women sang gospel songs. I left after half an hour of this and they looked set to go on for another 30 minutes. The poor cemetery guys - standing by to complete the burial - were looking a trifle resigned.
Reminds me of Vietnamese funerals, which are designed to exhaust everybody involved (on purpose, I think, so as to start getting through the grief). A typical one will involve two full days of visitation (open coffin, 10 or 12 hour stretches where the community comes by and sits with the family). Then a full-scale funeral in the church, coffin up front. That's maybe 60 minutes, several hymns, sermon, etc. etc. etc. Then a zillion people in cars following the hearse to the cemetery, then a 30 minute committal service, and then we try to get the family to leave before the cemetery people start filling in the grave, but I've known them to stick around (yes, and we have to have a couple of burly guys stationed graveside because there's usually one mourner who tries to throw themselves in the grave, and we have to physically restrain them and, er, drag them away).
It's a good thing we don't have too many of these, as they are exhausting for pastor and people alike.
[ 29. November 2014, 23:42: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Oscar the Grouch quote:
I am not sure what it is that has caused people to increasingly see the committal (whether burial or cremation) as "private". I can understand the situations where the practical difficulties of getting people to the crematorium (or cemetery) and then back for the "do" mean that only a few will actually go to the committal. And I can understand the desire for close family to have a "private moment" with the coffin. But keeping most people from the committal seems to me to be depriving them of an important part of the funeral and hence of the grieving process.
There is something significant about seeing the coffin descend into the ground or have the curtains closed at the crematorium - and I am not sure why it should be restricted just to close family.
In the case of my parents (and other-half, for that matter) it was for two reasons: first, how to get 150 or so people into a crematorium chapel with seating for c75 people; second; the logistics of that number of people getting themselves through traffic the more than 10 miles to the nearest crematorium. It was certainly nothing at all to do with a 'private' moment with the box, I can assure you - we had that when the coffin was received in church the night before.
I'm not talking about the times when there are clear logistical problems with having loads of people at the committal, but the times (in my experience, becoming more common) when the family specifically request a private committal, even if there would be no difficulties in others getting to the cemetery or into the crem.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427
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Posted
There is another solution to the 'who goes to the crematorium after the service in church?' question. Sometimes families agree that the Committal will take place at the hearse outside the church immediately after the service. In this case everyone gathers at the hearse for the appropriate words, and then watches as the hearse disappears down the road (instead of watching curtains close at the crematorium). With the committal complete, no one, not even the minister, goes to the crematorium with the body. Obviously some families would not like this at all, but it works for some!
Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005
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chenab
Apprentice
# 18278
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Posted
Increasingly it is coming down to what families want. Quite frequently it is trying to reach a compromise that at least doesn't upset too many members of the family.
Especially where we are any crematorium is about 30 minutes away and especially with elderly people their similarly elderly friends aren't going to travel to the committal anyway whether it's private or not.
So you get most of the juggling act sorted and then someone remembers Aunt Aggie will have a total fit if there isn't a service at the local church first, oh and Aggie doesn't like female ministers so you suddenly have the fun of trying to book the church to fit in with what you have already booked and the awkward discussion with the minister of would she really mind if one of her male colleagues did the service.
And while you do most of this I'll bet pretty much everyone in the room knows that on the day Aggie will have "one of her turns" and not turn up anyway ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Posts: 14 | Registered: Nov 2014
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Telford Crem was one of my favourite crems. Double slots of 40 mins were possible - some crems only permit the standard 20 mins - and one could relax a little, and the facilities and the location were outstanding.
Gosh. In all the places I've served, I've never known slots less than 30 minutes (mind you, that includes the time between funerals etc., so the service itself can only be 20 minutes maximum). Our two crematoria here give you 45 minutes between services, which is not only more relaxed but means that a funeral isn't queueing up behind the one in front.
I should explain - for officianados like yourself! - that the 20 mins is indeed service time. Eg, you arrive and begin at, say, 1pm - and you've got to be filing out the exit door by 20 past 1. That gives the staff best part of ten minutes, in theory, to get ready for the next party. In the case of big funeral parties it was a bit of a nightmare as it could take 5 to 10 minutes for everyone to file in. Hence, the fervent hope we were only there for the committal. With families, I used to have guidance times - how long the hymns took, how much time we could spend on the talk, readings, prayers etc - so they'd understand how limited the choices might be.
The crems who stuck rigidly to the 20 minute rule were very busy places, to be fair to them, and it could appear that the funeral parties were indeed chasing each other in and out of the various doors. Double slots just weren't an option. And clergy who regularly exceeded their twenty minutes, went on the crem staff's unofficial black list!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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