Ship of Fools: New Advent Vestments

Thread: New Advent Vestments Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :

OK: I know we are already into Advent - but today we blessed a new altar frontal, burse, veil, chasuble and stole for our little part of the kingdom in Granville (NSW, Aus.) Following new trends (and fortunately not having to worry about such things as authorized colours), ours are in a deep midnight blue, with even darker blue velvet orphreys, edged with silver. On the altar frontal and the ends of the stoles there appears the Advent/nativity star with the Southern Cross as part of the design. Will have pics up soon.

The vestments were made locally by Judith Couley of YJude Vestments - she did a marvelous job under very straining personal circumstances. She is very professional, which is why we already have a green altar frontal made by her. At Christmas we will have a new white frontal with a Chi Rho and Crown for the emblem. A passion red set has been designed for 2015, suitable for martyrs and passiontide. Will advise when pics for this are available.

Next week we will be blessing the dalmatics, tunicles and cope which will then complete the new set. Pics then! :-)

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

I'm about to ask the church to spend some money on new paraments. I was looking for something specific to request, but on looking it over I think we're going to have to go the custom route. I think I'm going to request either a nice set of whites that we can use for any occasion or a set for Christmas, with the understanding that we buy several other seasons (Easter, Lent, and Ordinary Time the three I think we need most) as we go along. The general white set would probably be most wise, given our finances at the moment. I just want something nicer than the cheap ones most small United Methodist churches have.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Blue sounds nice but you ARE following ancient colour sequences - blue was/is the Sarum colour for Advent and, IMO, much better than purple.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Quite right about the blue: we only bring out purple in Advent if we have a visit from someone like the Archdeacon.

Our Blue is very beautiful - got it made a couple of years ago.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Blue sounds nice but you ARE following ancient colour sequences - blue was/is the Sarum colour for Advent and, IMO, much better than purple.

Leo, are you saying it's much better because it's the Sarum colour, or do you have another reason to add to that?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

No - simply that the OP says 'fortunately not having to worry about such things as authorized colours'

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

We have a very nice purple/gold High Mass set for Advent, though we will use rose-pink for this coming Sunday. Alas, we only have a rose-pink chasuble, so the other Scared Monsters will have to make do with a plain alb/blue scarf (being Umble Lay Readers only....).

Our antique (and very beautiful) Sarum Blue chasuble is now used only for the mid-week Masses in Advent. We do have a new and bright azure blue High Mass set, but that's kept for feasts of Our Lady.

Ian J.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Blue sounds nice but you ARE following ancient colour sequences - blue was/is the Sarum colour for Advent and, IMO, much better than purple.

As of the late Middle Ages, Westminster Abbey used white, Wells Cathedral blue, Exeter violet, and Pleshy College red. The idea that Advent in the Sarum Use was a beautiful midnight-blue sea of preparation and not penitence is Dearmerite wishful thinking.

If you like blue better for Advent, then knock yourself out. But claiming it's the Sarum color is just not supported by the data.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Yes, but what did Salisbury use? Isn't that the point?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Dearmer, in The Parson's Handbook ,makes it clear that pre-Reformation use of colours in England varied greatly at various times, but he does say that evidence suggests that Salisbury used both violet and blue in the 15th C at least.

Whether our lovely blue chasuble is Sarum or not, it certainly adds a touch of sombre beauty to our mid-week services in Advent!

Local custom and all that...... [Snigger]

Ian J.

Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :

I believe blue is also the preferred color for Advent in the Church of Sweden. We (ELCA) also use blue in Advent.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Blue sounds nice but you ARE following ancient colour sequences - blue was/is the Sarum colour for Advent and, IMO, much better than purple.
As of the late Middle Ages, Westminster Abbey used white, Wells Cathedral blue, Exeter violet, and Pleshy College red. The idea that Advent in the Sarum Use was a beautiful midnight-blue sea of preparation and not penitence is Dearmerite wishful thinking.

If you like blue better for Advent, then knock yourself out. But claiming it's the Sarum color is just not supported by the data.

Is any of this based on genuine knowledge or are modern writers just reproducing early C20 antiquarian fantasies? Does anyone actually know any of this and if so, how? I'm particularly puzzled what authority there might be for claiming to pronounce on the liturgical habits of an obscure place in rural Essex.

There is surprising and widespread uncertainty about what was being done in 1829. So whence derives any claim to certainty about 1529?

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

What does it matter? Dark blue seems, intuitively, just right for this season: dark nights hinting at the promise of light to come. And it's different from Lenten purple which helps to make the point that it is not a penitential season in the same way. (I admit I am slightly biased, having this morning as a visiting priest searched for a wearable purple chasuble, rejecting one with frayed shoulders and another hideous Latin-shaped one. A full and simple shape in a deep and serene blue would have been ideal.)

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

I am one of those who believe that the Sarum blue is more a result of 20th century church supply companies' desire to reap profit than it is actual historical practice. Sure, there is some evidence of its use at that time--though how widespread is another question entirely--but to say that is an obscure bit of data would be fairly accurate. As church suppliers began to get bigger in the middle 20th century, they began pushing the blue in a big way--originally to Anglicans, then to Lutherans, and after the post-Vatican II changes, even to RCs, some of whom actually bit.

They took advantage of the "Advent is not a penitential season" argument (which is hilarious, when nearly everything written about Advent through the centuries, at least in a Catholic context, says the polar opposite) and went for the profit. Even some RC bishops' conferences breathed in the revisionist claptrap, maintaining that Advent was not really penitential, and thus a lighter hue of violet should be used. From this, some parishes began using blue in Advent, but eventually Rome clarified that blue was not an authorized liturgical color in the Latin rite, except for a couple of Marian indults.

It's certainly no Lent, with that season's images of the Passion, but its anticipation and its penance services in some place, all of which include preparing for a major feast, definitely involves a penitential framework--hence the lack of Gloria, and the violet vestments.

[ 10. December 2014, 12:31: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

FWIW, which I recognise isn't much, our Advent and Lent high mass set would look, to the untrained eye, as if it were a very dark blue with a violet hue. We know better, though - it's our purple set.

This caused some amusement during the children's sermon on Advent I. The preacher asked "and what colour is Father wearing today?" "Blue!" "Erm, ah, no, it does look like blue but it's actually purple."

Thurible

Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :

AIUI the blue came in to use in the medieval period in England as the purple dye was so expensive.

Posted by Try (# 4951) on :

All of the 19th and 20th century liturgical authorities say that while blue vestments are found in the inventories of Salisbury cathedral there is not a clear indication of how they were used. Percy Dearmer quite bluntly states "Advent, violet or purple" in the Parson's Handbook, though he notes that Sailsbury Cathedral did have quite a few blue vestiments in their inventory. He does, however go on to state that

quote:
The ‘violet’ for Lent does not of course mean the unpleasant colour (so remote from the colour of the violet flower) at present provided by the shops. There is no such restriction as to tints, and dark blue or purple is equally suitable for Lent.

In other words he argues that blue was seen simply as a variation of purple, and could be used in either Advent or Lent. A generation earlier, John Purchas had written that

quote:
Again, no mention is made of any vestments or altar-hangings of blue or green, and yet these frequently occur in the ancient inventories of church furniture; as for instance, in Dugdale’s Monast. viii., 1209, of York Cathedral; ibid. 1387, of Lincoln Cathedral; ibid. 1362, of S. George’s Chapel, Windsor; and in the illuminated MSS. in the British Museum, and else where.

In 2002 Prof. Robert Wright of GTS argued that blue was a ferial color in the Sarum use, though he provided no footnotes in his essay.

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Blue sounds nice but you ARE following ancient colour sequences - blue was/is the Sarum colour for Advent and, IMO, much better than purple.
As of the late Middle Ages, Westminster Abbey used white, Wells Cathedral blue, Exeter violet, and Pleshy College red. The idea that Advent in the Sarum Use was a beautiful midnight-blue sea of preparation and not penitence is Dearmerite wishful thinking.

If you like blue better for Advent, then knock yourself out. But claiming it's the Sarum color is just not supported by the data.
Is any of this based on genuine knowledge or are modern writers just reproducing early C20 antiquarian fantasies? Does anyone actually know any of this and if so, how? I'm particularly puzzled what authority there might be for claiming to pronounce on the liturgical habits of an obscure place in rural Essex.

There is surprising and widespread uncertainty about what was being done in 1829. So whence derives any claim to certainty about 1529?

I suspect the customaries of many of these places, as well as liturgical books with rubrics and other contemporary references, have survived.

This is how we usually learn of past liturgical practices so I don't see why colours would be any different.

[ 19. January 2015, 07:42: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

Early 20th-century antiquarian fantasies were generally less equivocal and more monolithic. They are exactly the sort of thing that allowed people to decide that "Sarum blue" was a universal English practice and not an idiosyncrasy of a particular chapel.

The multicolored situation I refer to is attested in an article by J. Barrington Bates in Studia Liturgica 10 years or so ago. Sorry for the imprecision of the reference, but I can't locate my copy at the moment.

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