Ship of Fools: Commissioning services

Thread: Commissioning services Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

It's common in these parts to have a commissioning service for "celebration of new ministry" when a clergyperson moves into a new community. I don't like em. Something seems a little weird about it. Can't quite put a finger on why. Do other peeps do this?

Thoughts?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Not the same thing, but I started a (lay) job with an ecumenical body some years ago and I was asked whether I would like to have a commissioning service - apparently my predecessor had had one. I refused without having to think about it- I would have found it embarrassing. But perhaps there's a difference between moving into a new job and taking over a new pastoral charge.
Are we talking about Anglicans here? And incumbents (or the equivalent) only, or assistant clergy as well?

[ 15. January 2015, 10:20: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

Methodists love to have commissioning services when we send people on mission trips or when they start jobs that have to do with missions (such as the time I got a job working with a non-profit para-church organization). I've not heard of them in connection with a change of appointment (change of pastor). We do have a service for that which involves the outgoing pastor leaving a stole on the altar and the incoming pastor donning it the next Sunday, but I don't recall what it's called. A wee bit twee, if you ask me, and I've only seen it in the Book of Worship. I've never actually been to one.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

British Methodists have a service of welcome when a minister begins a new appointment. It seems that a change of minister is a significant change in the life of a congregation and it's appropriate to mark that liturgically. Anglicans here have inductions and licensings which serve much the same purpose.

I don't like to see ceremonies involving stoles like Barefoot Friar describes - the stole is a symbol of ordination not pastoral charge. The outgoing elder does not cease to be ordained because his/her appointment has come to an end and the new one was presumably ordained at some point before they arrived!

Posted by Offeiriad (# 14031) on :

A Commissioning Service is normal at the start of an Anglican Ministry in a place, in my experience. They have mutated over the years from a choral tour of the church building (singing 'We love the place O God') to a more verbal Commissioning of New Ministries. I've always regarded them as a Necessary Weevil (sp?).

I have also been involved in planning liturgies for the end of a Ministry. We applied much creativity to this task in our Diocesan Liturgy Team, but our efforts were not always appreciated..... [Devil]

[ 15. January 2015, 10:59: Message edited by: Offeiriad ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

"Induction" services (as we call them) are de rigeur when a new minister arrives at a Baptist or URC church. They are often occasions when members of other local congregations come to show their support (and to have a good peek at the "new guy"!) It is normal for both Church and Minister to tell the story of how the "call" came about.

Curiously, it has been known for said ministers to begin their work a week or two before the formal Induction takes place - rather like a road opening before they close it again to have a proper Opening Ceremony!

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

We do it for pastors, but not associates. I've only ever been at one, I think, which was for my current pastor. The area dean came to our main Sunday Mass, but he insisted that our new pastor preside and preach and he just preside over the installation part. It didn't take very long, about 5 minutes probably. Our commissioning for new EMHCs and lectors probably takes about 3 minutes!

I've never worked in a grade school during a principal handover, but I'm sure we'd have a blessing for an outgoing principal and something for an incoming one.

My province is split pretty evenly between parish and higher ed ministry. Certainly, when a college / university gets a new president, they get a very grand installation service (inaugration?). But, I'm not aware of a special service for any other higher ed role. New seminary rectors are installed by the provincial, with a pretty similar service to the installation of the pastor of a parish.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I think Anglicans have to do them.

But they are very clerical - why don't lay people get commissioned when they change secular jobs?

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

The Episcopal (U.S.) Book of Common Prayer includes a "Celebration of a New Ministry."

Our Book of Occasional Services includes a "Commissioning for Lay Ministries in the Church," as well as a "Liturgy for Commissioning a Church Planter, Missioner, or Mission Team."

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I think Anglicans have to do them.

But they are very clerical - why don't lay people get commissioned when they change secular jobs?

Some secular jobs do welcome new practitioners ceremonially (joining the bar as a lawyer, military promotion, and installations of those in certain political offices are examples that come to mind). For a job to be properly secular means that the appropriate part of the secula is responsible for inducting its new practitioners. It would seem to me to be encroachment for the institutional church to abrogate that to itself.

For people doing church jobs, it's the church that inducts / commissions / etc. them.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

That all seems to be sensible and I don't disagree.

However it can give the impression that the Church is only interested in the roles of those who have "churchy" occupations, but not those who work out, and witness to, their faith in "the real world".

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

I have heard of churches that bless the hands of nurses (who work in secular hospitals, etc.). Not really a commissioning, but similar.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

As Leo says, in the CofE when a new vicar is appointed there is always an induction service. The bishop attends and gives the new person the cure of souls, they ring the bell etc. It's a big thing. They also make a declaration of obedience to the bishop. I think it is a legally necessary event. It's so much a part of the system that it's slightly odd to discover from this thread that it is not universal.

Posted by DangerousDeacon (# 10582) on :

Commissioning does seem to be a fairly Anglican thing. For associate priests, lay people in ministry positions, IME it is fairly low-key - usually in the course of a Sunday service, before the greeting of the peace the people to be commissioned come forward, have a prayer said over them and for them, and are given appropriate licences, symbols, etc. Takes about five minutes.

For the incumbent of a parish, it tends to be more elaborate, usually a separate service (at least here in Australia). I think appropriate, as it allows the new Rector or Vicar to be received into a position of leadership in the community, and also marks a new stage in the life of the parish. However, to be fair, I think this type of service is a fairly new phenomenon, and not one I have seen in other parts of the Anglican Communion (such as Melanesia). In Melanesia, it is ordination rather than commissioning which is the important service.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

It's pretty common where I come from in Anglican circles. For people elected to Parish Council and special services etc, both in low and high churches. The commissioning of the rector of a parish is much more formal and there is a special service for this.

As DD says it's usually low-key for lay-people, a short prayer, sometimes a declaration that with God's help you will fulfil your duties to the best of your ability during the Sunday Service.

I quite like it from a practical perspective, it reinforces to me that I've made a commitment in front of the church and I need to honour that commitment. It also is a means by which to introduce and affirm you in the community in a new role.

[ 16. January 2015, 01:07: Message edited by: Evangeline ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

On the very rare occasions we have had a new rector, there has been a special service to induct him (still the rule here, alas) into the parish. A new Associate Priest is inducted during the normal 10 am service. Wardens, parish councillors, organist, choir master, lay liturgical assistants and servers are all also inducted during that service.

A sort of reverse commissioning occurs when someone leaves the parish to move to a new city - or in one case, back to the US. We acknowledge the contribution they have made, wish them well for the future and the Rector blesses them.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:

As DD says it's usually low-key for lay-people, a short prayer, sometimes a declaration that with God's help you will fulfil your duties to the best of your ability during the Sunday Service.

I quite like it from a practical perspective, it reinforces to me that I've made a commitment in front of the church and I need to honour that commitment. It also is a means by which to introduce and affirm you in the community in a new role.

We "recognise" all our Junior Church leader at a short ceremony during worship at the beginning of the school year, and similarly recognise new and continuing Deacons (=PCC members) each January.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

In my forty years of experience, de riguer for a new incumbency, and as Offeiriad says, there has been a change in style from "We Love the Place" and a tour of the kirk to presentation of gifts, but a de riguer liturgy, almost always conducted by the bishop (in Darwin he was a way so the vicar general inducted me).

In my present diocese it is an installation not an induction but I think that's just a trendy kiwi-ism. I was all excited because I thought that was a special deany thing but no [Frown]

For non-incumbent ministries a commissioning within a liturgy, often in place of the intercessions, is normal.

I can't imagine a kick-off without one.

[ 16. January 2015, 07:37: Message edited by: Zappa ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

In my present diocese it is an installation not an induction but I think that's just a trendy kiwi-ism. I was all excited because I thought that was a special deany thing but no

I have been to CofE services which have been both an Installation and a Collation - I think (although I may be wrong) that one refers to placing a new Incumbent in the Parish and the other to doing so in the Church.

[The actual words make me smile: "Installation" sounds like putting in a new central heating system, while Collation is a good cold meal! Mind you, our own word "Induction" carries both electrical and gynaecological overtones!]

Posted by Offeiriad (# 14031) on :

The traditional C of E service is an Institution and Induction.

If my failing memory still serves me well, Institution grants the spiritual possession of the Benefice, and Induction grants possession of the material aspects of the Benefice. My memory is even poorer when it comes to the rare alternative of Collation and Induction - is it when the Patron is himself the Ecclesiastical entity who does the Institution?

As I say, all this is from memory, and I stand ready to defer to the greater knowledge of those who (genuinely) know better... [Razz]

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Offeiriad:
The traditional C of E service is an Institution and Induction.

If my failing memory still serves me well, Institution grants the spiritual possession of the Benefice, and Induction grants possession of the material aspects of the Benefice. My memory is even poorer when it comes to the rare alternative of Collation and Induction - is it when the Patron is himself the Ecclesiastical entity who does the Institution?

As I say, all this is from memory, and I stand ready to defer to the greater knowledge of those who (genuinely) know better...

I'm fairly sure this is entirely correct.

An installation or collation is the bishop giving the cure of souls to the new incumbent. Collations are indeed when the bishop is patron; installations are when he/she is not.

Inductions are the job of the archdeacon, who gives the new incumbent charge of the "real, actual and corporeal possession of the church".

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Offeiriad:
The traditional C of E service is an Institution and Induction.

If my failing memory still serves me well, Institution grants the spiritual possession of the Benefice, and Induction grants possession of the material aspects of the Benefice. My memory is even poorer when it comes to the rare alternative of Collation and Induction - is it when the Patron is himself the Ecclesiastical entity who does the Institution?

As I say, all this is from memory, and I stand ready to defer to the greater knowledge of those who (genuinely) know better...

That may well be correct in the C of E; elsewhere in the Communion, archdeacons are collated. If they misbehave, they may be decollated, with the head being removed from the rest of the body. Women who become archdeacons are allowed to wear decolletage.

More seriously though, the induction of a new Rector is an important part of the life of any parish. It deserves its own service and the attendance of the regional bishop if not the diocesan. It's also an excuse for a good celebration afterwards, before the knives start going out for the parish nominators the following Tuesday.

Posted by Offeiriad (# 14031) on :

Thank you for confirmation that my memory is correct! I'm sure my terminology is out-dated since the arrival of Common Tenure.

These technical phrases can baffle the best: I remember a local newspaper announcing that a newly arrived incumbent in Wales had suffered 'A Service of Hestitition and Reduction'. It is not known whether he ever fully recovered.....

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Induction services do seem to be bigger and bolder these days, maybe because they usually occur at the end of a really long interregnum, by which time those who have been holding the fort are pretty exhausted and jaded. Even more excuse, then for a great big party, to which everyone in the Deanery is invited. The last ones I've been too involve huge long processions of clergy, choir, churchwardens, banner carriers and anyone else who happens to be caught up in the ceremony. The church is usually packed out and there is a huge feast afterwards. We've got one coming up in a couple of weeks, as our new priest in charge is almost ready to take up his post.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

Chorister

Long interregnum URC terminology

Greater than five years probably closer to ten.

Jengie

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Yikes, Jengie! Should think you'd need at least a Coronation, rather than an Induction, after a wait like that!

Our CofE ones are normally 1-2 years, in rural areas anyway.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Our last interregnum was nearly 4 years long.....

.....the licensing etc. of our new priest-in-charge saw a full church. The following day (Sunday) just 28 turned up for his first Parish Mass!

Ian J.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

Talking Anglican first of all, I am very experienced at attending installation services for new ministries in a parish.

Installation may be an umbrella term, useful when the exact nature of the technical term is not defined.

Induction is when the new Priest is taking up common tenure (formerly freehold) and that is when the tolling of the bell takes place, signifying the number of years they intend to remain in post. Sometimes, the bell is rung Angelus-wise.

Licensing is when the new appointment is less permanent and on contract for five years in the first instance. On such occasions, the bell is not tolled as above.

Collation is the term used when the bishop of the diocese is the patron of the living.

Many of the Installation services I attend are in Guildford Diocese, where the service is invariably non-eucharistic. Instead, the "new" priest goes around in procession to the various parts of the church, such as, the font; the pulpit; the lectern; the altar, where suitable words are used and appropriate promises made. Over the border in nearby Southwark Diocese, the installation service seems to be invariably eucharistic (as it is in most other English dioceses in my experience) and the processing round the church as above, is left out.

I do not recall being present at the installation of a new ministry in a RC church. But free-church, especially Methodist, yes. I went to one of those last September and it included Holy Communion and such services are less structured than in Anglican churches.

Invariably, the new priest or minister is welcomed during the service on behalf of various church groups.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

.....the licensing etc. of our new priest-in-charge saw a full church. The following day (Sunday) just 28 turned up for his first Parish Mass!

Ian J.

We've seen the vicar in, we know what (s)he looks like, now we don't need to go again until Christmas....

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Pretty much how it was, except that the b****rs didn't even turn up at Christmas....

[Disappointed]

Ian J.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

That sounds remarkably like Father's Day in our Annual Conference. All UM pastors in our conference who have a change of appointment move on the Wednesday before Father's Day, which then becomes their first Sunday. As a result, you can expect crowds that rival Easter. And then you won't get much after that.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
As Leo says, in the CofE when a new vicar is appointed there is always an induction service. The bishop attends and gives the new person the cure of souls, they ring the bell etc. It's a big thing. They also make a declaration of obedience to the bishop. I think it is a legally necessary event. It's so much a part of the system that it's slightly odd to discover from this thread that it is not universal.

The Office of Institution of Ministers into Parishes or Churches.

Posted by DangerousDeacon (# 10582) on :

Another aspect mentioned above, but which is worth mentioning again, is services at the end of a ministry. If a lay person or associate priest or deacon is leaving (which often happens here given the transient nature of the population) it is worth mentioning - usually I do it at the end of the service, before the final blessing, with a short speech, thanks for their ministry, and a prayer giving thanks and asking for future blessing. Then the final blessing, and out the door to shake hands.

When an incumbent is leaving, it depends a little on the nature of their departure. My last parish blessed me with a wonderful service of farewell on a Sunday evening. So I did each of the Sunday morning services, then a non-Eucharistic service on Sunday evening which was well attended by community representatives and other churches. (Maybe they just attended to make sure I was really going!). I have seen this in other parishes as well. All of this seems appropriate.

When I arrived here I was commissioned as incumbent and installed (into my chair) as Dean. I suppose when I leave I will be decommissioned and uninstalled?

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Talking Anglican first of all, I am very experienced at attending installation services for new ministries in a parish..

I think you mean C of E, rather than Anglican. The procedures and rules you describe are not part of general Anglican practice, but only that in the C of E.

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by DangerousDeacon:
... a non-Eucharistic service on Sunday evening ...

Choral Evensong? After all, the words of the Nunc dimittis would be quite appropriate:

quote:
Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace ...

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

Our TEC shack commissions / re-commissions new Sunday school teachers / catechists / etc. once a year, commissions the officers of our local chapter of the Brotherhood of St. Andrew, commissions the youth and adults who go on a "mission trip" every summer, and probably commissions a few more people.

And, per Dangerous Deacon, we also bless people that are leaving the church for new pastures (sometimes moving home, sometimes moving to a different church.)

Everything is in the context of a communion service - our church doesn't know how to not have a communion service.

I don't think we've ever had anyone ask for a public blessing of their new job selling insurance or anything.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Talking Anglican first of all, I am very experienced at attending installation services for new ministries in a parish..
I think you mean C of E, rather than Anglican. The procedures and rules you describe are not part of general Anglican practice, but only that in the C of E.

I cannot account for Anglican practices outside England, but C of E is Anglican!

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Oh yes, the C of E is Anglican - more so now with the departure of those who went to the Ordinariate perhaps. But the reverse is not correct, and your post was in terms of what happened in an Anglican church, not just the C of E.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

I don't know whether this counts as a commissioning service but my husband and I were commissioned as mission partners with CMS before coming here to Kenya.
It is something which CMS takes very seriously and one of their senior staff always attends. Our home church in the UK is a cathedral and we had a beautiful simple commissioning ceremony (written by the Precentor) at the hands of the Dean as part of the normal Evensong service. The representative from CMS gave us the Scriptures in Kiwswahili as part of the commissioning.
It was very moving and there was a strong sense for us and for others present that the Holy Spirit was at work.
When the going gets tough here, I return to that moment and draw strength.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

That sounds wonderful, and very appropriate for the task that you were being sent to do.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Oh yes, the C of E is Anglican - more so now with the departure of those who went to the Ordinariate perhaps. But the reverse is not correct, and your post was in terms of what happened in an Anglican church, not just the C of E.

If I were you Gee D, at this juncture, I should share something of your experiences about commissioning services, from your part of the world.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

I did - see my post of 16 Jan at 14.11. It is now nearly 20 years since we last commissioned a new Rector. The service sheets will have to be dusted off soon, but my recollection is that there was a service on Saturday afternoon, the then Abp attended, inducted the new Rector to the Parish, blessed him and obtained the usual written undertaking as to vestments required in Sydney. There was no need for a vesting of temporalities and so forth as they simply don't exist in Aust canon law. I suspect that that is the position in virtually every other church in the Anglican Communion.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

The 'induction' part of the service in the CofE is a living relic of the feudal property investiture known as seisin. When I arrived at my present parish, several young lawyers of my acquaintance came to the service just for the excitement of witnessing this dinosaur.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

The last Induction service I played for was a splendid affair: Bishop, Archdeacon, Chancellor of the Diocese (in full legal garb, complete with wig), Lord Lieutenant in full uniform - a non-confirmist friend I persuaded to come and sing was gob-smacked.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

There's one at my shack at the end of January. I won't be there, due to a prior commitment, but I understand the choir will be singing Parry's 'I was glad' and one of the hymns will be 'Lord for the years'. That particular hymn seems to be an essential ingredient in any sort of induction or farewell ceremony in the CofE these days.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Lord for the years [Ultra confused]

Not where I am. Hymns: what about O Jesus, I have promised; The Church's one foundation; Thy hand, O God, has guided; Dismiss me not thy service, Lord or something similar?

I was glad, yes but you could (should?) choose something to suit the readings maybe, and that can mean fitting in with the liturgical season. One of our finest moments came a few years ago when a visiting bishop ("call me John") made it quite clear he didn't like the parish or the way we 'did' liturgy: the anthem had been chosen to suit the readings (natch) so was Gibbons This is the record of John complete with immortal lines "Art thou the prophet? and he answered: No." [Snigger]

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I did - see my post of 16 Jan at 14.11. It is now nearly 20 years since we last commissioned a new Rector. The service sheets will have to be dusted off soon, but my recollection is that there was a service on Saturday afternoon, the then Abp attended, inducted the new Rector to the Parish, blessed him and obtained the usual written undertaking as to vestments required in Sydney. There was no need for a vesting of temporalities and so forth as they simply don't exist in Aust canon law. I suspect that that is the position in virtually every other church in the Anglican Communion.

Right you are then Gee D - sorry, I missed that.

Regarding your reference to the reverse procedure when a priest leaves; at the farewell service (and I have been present at two of those in England in the past couple of years) the outgoing priest ceremonially handed over the church keys to a church warden (or other church officer) and in either case, the priest had been in post for about 30 years - a sign that they were relinquishing their tenure.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Oh yes, the C of E is Anglican - more so now with the departure of those who went to the Ordinariate perhaps. But the reverse is not correct, and your post was in terms of what happened in an Anglican church, not just the C of E.

A case in point is the existance in South Africa of - The Church of England in South Africa existing alongside The Church of the Province of Southern Africa and they cannot both be Anglican. CESA was founded as a low church sect, when CPSA was found to be too high church for them.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

The CPSA has been the Anglican Church of Southern Africa for almost a decade now.

I would say that ACSA and CESA are both Anglican, although only the former is a member of the Anglican Communion - just as groups such as the Traditional Anglican Communion, at the other end of the spectrum to CESA, or the numbers of churches in the USA which call themselves continuing Anglicans are Anglican in their heritage and much of their worship. Indeed, shipmate PD was a bishop in one such church (may still be, it's ages since he last posted) and another US shipmate (Fr Weber from memory) is a priest in another.

Who left whom is South Africa? Certainly, what is now ACSA has been always been recognised within the communion as being as the Communion church, but just what happened is not exactly clear. CESA says that it is the continuation of the existing church, and may well be correct in one sense about that. CESA does have the Apostolic Succession of Anglican Churches in the Communion, and its orders are recognised as valid.

It is sad that CESA was aligned with the apartheid regimes as closely as it was, nearly as much as the Dutch Reformed Church was. + Dudley Foord (++ Donald Robinson of Sydney being the principal consecrating bishop) was bishop during the late 1980's and did quite a bit to break away from the regime.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Europe is a place where there are several Anglican Churches, all in the Communion. There's the C of E's Diocese in Europe, The Convocation of Episcopal Churches in Europe (coming from PECUSA and it's successors), the Spanish Reformed Episcopal Church, and The Lusitanian Church, which is in Portugal. Lots of overlapping there, all in the Communion.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

In my present diocese it is an installation not an induction but I think that's just a trendy kiwi-ism. I was all excited because I thought that was a special deany thing but no
I have been to CofE services which have been both an Installation and a Collation - I think (although I may be wrong) that one refers to placing a new Incumbent in the Parish and the other to doing so in the Church.

[The actual words make me smile: "Installation" sounds like putting in a new central heating system, while Collation is a good cold meal! Mind you, our own word "Induction" carries both electrical and gynaecological overtones!]

Installation is the term used among Presbyterians, at least in America. The installation of a pastor or associate pastor in a congregation is conducted by the presbytery, acting through a commission. For a pastor, installation means both being installed as pastor of the congregation and as moderator of the Session.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Europe is a place where there are several Anglican Churches, all in the Communion. There's the C of E's Diocese in Europe, The Convocation of Episcopal Churches in Europe (coming from PECUSA and it's successors), the Spanish Reformed Episcopal Church, and The Lusitanian Church, which is in Portugal. Lots of overlapping there, all in the Communion.

Bearing in mind that this thread is about commissioning services, I was not going to dwell on this tangent. But you Gee D, have developed it more than I expected and no host has said anything.

It is over 20 years since I was last in South Africa, but I always thought that the CPSA was already the "official" Anglican Church in that Country at that time. I do not know how you justify your statement the the CPSA became that about ten years ago, or whatever it was that you said.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Gee D can answer for himself but AIUI he was referring to a change of name rather than of status.

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

Those interested in the finer distinctions may be amused by this:

Deed of Presentation

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Gee D can answer for himself but AIUI he was referring to a change of name rather than of status.

As indeed I thought that I pretty obviously was.

While on the tangent, it seemed to me inherent in your post of 21 January at 15.20 EF-F that there could not be 2 Anglican churches covering the same territory and both in the Communion. I've drawn attention to the example of much of Europe, covered largely by 2 such Anglican Churches. You don't seem to have commented on that, and I'd appreciate your comments.

None please about CESA and the origin of 2 Anglican Churches in SA. That really is a subject of limited interest and totally hellish at best.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

While on the tangent, it seemed to me inherent in your post of 21 January at 15.20 EF-F that there could not be 2 Anglican churches covering the same territory and both in the Communion. I've drawn attention to the example of much of Europe, covered largely by 2 such Anglican Churches.

That is presumably because none of them claim 'territorial jurisdiction' in the way that the C of E does, and in a more limited sense (not being established) other national Anglican churches do. The Diocese in Europe and I assume the TEC and others merely provide chaplaincies to gathered congregations.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I was not going to dwell on this tangent. But you Gee D, have developed it more than I expected and no host has said anything.

Well, taking time zones and Real Life into account, the last time a Host looked at this thread it appeared to be returning to its proper subject. Hence no intervention.

But you've now got one. From here on in, no more on the tangent -- or any other tangents -- please.

John Holding
Ecclesiantics Host

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Gee D can answer for himself but AIUI he was referring to a change of name rather than of status.
As indeed I thought that I pretty obviously was.

While on the tangent, it seemed to me inherent in your post of 21 January at 15.20 EF-F that there could not be 2 Anglican churches covering the same territory and both in the Communion. I've drawn attention to the example of much of Europe, covered largely by 2 such Anglican Churches. You don't seem to have commented on that, and I'd appreciate your comments.

None please about CESA and the origin of 2 Anglican Churches in SA. That really is a subject of limited interest and totally hellish at best.

In view of John Holding's edict, I don't feel free to respond here. I opine that this is a discussion for another thread.

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