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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Creed
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
I've noticed that when people refer to "the Creed" recited in the liturgy most people are referring to the Apostles' Creed. Since when has the Apostles' Creed been the go to creed as opposed to the Niceno-Constantinopolitan? Is it just because it's shorter or is there some sort of theological significance?
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
I'm not sure I accept the premise of the question. I would expect the Nicene Creed at Communion but the Apostles' Creed at the offices (if a creed is used at all).
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Pancho
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# 13533
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Posted
The Apostles Creed is older than the Nicene Creed and lies at the very root of the Western Church in Rome. For centuries it has been used as the basis for catechisms and to instruct the faithful in the faith. It was one of the prayers I was supposed to learn before I made my First Holy Communion. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: quote:
Among all the creeds, two occupy a special place in the Church's life:
194 The Apostles' Creed is so called because it is rightly considered to be a faithful summary of the apostles' faith. It is the ancient baptismal symbol of the Church of Rome. Its great authority arises from this fact: it is "the Creed of the Roman Church, the See of Peter the first of the apostles, to which he brought the common faith".13
195 The Niceno-Constantinopolitan or Nicene Creed draws its great authority from the fact that it stems from the first two ecumenical Councils (in 325 and 381). It remains common to all the great Churches of both East and West to this day.
196 Our presentation of the faith will follow the Apostles' Creed, which constitutes, as it were, "the oldest Roman catechism". The presentation will be completed however by constant references to the Nicene Creed, which is often more explicit and more detailed.
When prayer books and devotional literature say to recite "the Creed" they are usually referring to the Apostles Creed. That said, most people who attend mass every Sunday eventually end up memorizing the Nicene Creed anyways (as they do with the other people's parts).
[ 01. February 2015, 17:49: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528
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Posted
We use the Nicene at communion too. I've a vague suspicion that it's because of the emphasis on the two natures of Christ, while the Apostles' gets used at other times because it is the baptismal creed.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
The Lutheran Church over here seems to use the Apostles' Creed as its go to creed and in my experience in many not so traditional, shall we say, Roman Catholic churches. The Creed as given us by the Nicene and Consantinopolitan councils was inserted into the liturgy to combat Arianism. Whilst the Apostles' Creed is perfectly orthodox it doesn't address that: conceivably an Arian could confess it without having to cross his fingers, hence my question.
[ 01. February 2015, 17:56: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
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Pancho
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# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
The Apostles Creed is older than the Nicene Creed
Just to be clear (because I just know somebody is gonna bring this up) the Apostles Creed is older because it's derivied from the Old Roman Symbol, which is cited by Tertullian and Ireneus, and attested to by Pope Julius I.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Pancho
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# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
The Lutheran Church over here seems to use the Apostles' Creed as its go to creed and in my experience in many not so traditional, shall we say, Roman Catholic churches. The Creed as given us by the Nicene and Consantinopolitan councils was inserted into the liturgy to combat Arianism. Whilst the Apostles' Creed is perfectly orthodox it doesn't address that: conceivably an Arian could confess it without having to cross his fingers, hence my question.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but if I remember correctly in the previous edition of the Roman Missal the Apostles Creed was allowed for masses with children. The current typical edition of the Roman Missal allows the use of the Apostles' Creed at mass in general. Remember it is the ancient creed of the Roman Church, predating the Nicene Creed. The Apostles' Creed doesn't address the Arian controversy because it predates it. That said, most parishes in my area continue using the Nicene Creed at mass (I'm tempted to say "all parishes in my area" because I can't remember if and when was the last time I heard the Apostles Creed said at mass).
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
Without clarification, I would interpret "the Creed" to mean the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381. It is (a) the oldest creed we use and (b) accepted across a very broad spectrum of the Christian churches (though the filioque is, of course, an ecumenical issue).
The Apostles' Creed (optimistically named) is, by contrast, exclusive to the Western tradition. Its use historically was especially as a baptismal creed. In the context of a baptism or an Anglican evensong, I would understand "the Creed" to refer to the Apostles' Creed, but otherwise not.
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Adam.
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# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but if I remember correctly in the previous edition of the Roman Missal the Apostles Creed was allowed for masses with children. The current typical edition of the Roman Missal allows the use of the Apostles' Creed at mass in general.
I think every post-conciliar RM has allowed the choice of Apostles' or Nicene creed whenever the creed is called for. The previous English translation, however, did not make this clear. I normally use the Apostles, for a few reasons:
1) The other priests in my parish generally use the Nicene and, given that the liturgy allows both options, I think the people should get to use both;
2) It is shorter, allowing me to use a longer Eucharistic Prayer without lengthening Mass;
3) I and many others find "for us men" distracting. In general, I think the Apostles' creed is better translated than the Nicene.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm not sure I accept the premise of the question. I would expect the Nicene Creed at Communion but the Apostles' Creed at the offices (if a creed is used at all).
ditto
The rule in the Church of England Communion rite is that quote:
On Sundays and Principal Holy Days an authorized translation of the Nicene Creed is used, or on occasion the Apostles' Creed or an authorized Affirmation of Faith may be used
Even with such a liberal allowance, I know of at least two churches within walking distance of where I live where the rule is broken, and the Nicene is rarely if ever used: "on occasion" has come to mean "every Sunday".
I wonder how many CofE people even know the Nicene Creed off by heart now? It's bad enough that we keep changing the words every few years, but if churches are going to stop using it we'll have a whole generation who don't know it. (The version in my head is the one we used to sing to Merbecke!)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
<snip>I wonder how many CofE people even know the Nicene Creed off by heart now?<snip>
I've been saying it more than once a week for nearly thirty years, and still don't have it by heart! That's partly because I always read it, and partly because I sometimes use it in the BCP (1662) version. Also sometimes during the course of the week I additionally use the Apostles' Creed, which I used fairly frequently in my youth, again in both BCP and modern versions. I know what they say, but couldn't guarantee to recite any one of them correctly.
(OTOH, provided I concentrate I can recite any one of four different variations of the Lord's Prayer which I regularly use.)
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dj_ordinaire
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# 4643
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Posted
Most commonly, 'Creed' for me would seem to mean the 'Apostle's Creed', as at the Offices - the Nicene Creed would be specified as such for Eucharistic services. And, yes, I too know of churches which seem to balk at using it at all, the rubrics notwithstanding. I honestly think singing it to Merbecke would help with this as reading it out as a big communal chunk of text is admittedly quite disruptive to the flow of the service.
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
Is there any theological significance to its use, which is really what I want to know. At the end of the day it's not that much shorter, so I don't really buy the saving time reasoning.
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Pancho
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# 13533
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Posted
It's theological significance was stated up thread in the quotation from the Catechism:
quote:
194 The Apostles' Creed is so called because it is rightly considered to be a faithful summary of the apostles' faith. It is the ancient baptismal symbol of the Church of Rome. Its great authority arises from this fact: it is "the Creed of the Roman Church, the See of Peter the first of the apostles, to which he brought the common faith".
quote:
196 Our presentation of the faith will follow the Apostles' Creed, which constitutes, as it were, "the oldest Roman catechism".
The reason for the inclusion of either creed in the Mass is stated in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal quote:
67. The purpose of the Creed or Profession of Faith is that the whole gathered people may respond to the Word of God proclaimed in the readings taken from Sacred Scripture and explained in the Homily and that they may also honor and confess the great mysteries of the faith by pronouncing the rule of faith in a formula approved for liturgical use and before the celebration of these mysteries in the Eucharist begins.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
When I hear "the Creed", I think Nicene Creed -- what we say at Mass -- unless the context is further qualified, for example referring to one of the daily offices or to the Rosary.
When we were living in Lithuania in 2004-05, the cathedral in Vilnius invariably used the Apostles Creed at the principal Mass (for grownups, with choir and Latin settings of the Ordinary), which I found quite odd.
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mousethief
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# 953
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Posted
Of course the Nic-Con creed is the only one we have. Although it is properly called "The Symbol of Faith." But "creed" makes an easy shorthand. It's from Latin of course but the first word in Greek is "pisteuomen" and who wants to recite the Pist?
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
Here in NZ-Cantuar we have gone in for a sloppy and sweet feel good alternative which is permitted at any liturgical event. Admittedly "Jesus is Lord" was the first creed, and is deeply profound, but I am loathe to tinker with, for all their faults, the two later greater creeds, Apostles and Nicene. we water them down at peril.
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
At my last church we had an Orthodox Priest and his family who would attend every so often. Whenever we used the Nicene Creed he would walk out.
Of course the problem with the Nicene Creed for the Orthodox people is the filoque question (the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son) while that statement is not heretical in itself according to my Orthodox friend, it was a violation of the seventh canon of the third ecumenical council and was never agreed to by the Eastern Church.
Recently (the last five years), the congregation where I worship has been using an Affirmation of Faith that has been put out by the Canadian United Church of Christ. We like it because it affirms the action of God in our world today. If you have never seen it, here is a link to it:
http://www.united-church.ca/beliefs/creed
Of course, we Lutherans have more latitude in what we can use in our worship forms. We are not bound by any specific canon law that says our worship has to be a certain way. About the only statement is a confessional statement that we continue to observe the Mass.
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Of course the problem with the Nicene Creed for the Orthodox people is the filoque question (the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son) while that statement is not heretical in itself according to my Orthodox friend, it was a violation of the seventh canon of the third ecumenical council and was never agreed to by the Eastern Church.
It depends who you ask, innit. Some say it is a heresy others say not, though whether latter say no out of a spirit of ecumenism, I don't know. I lean towards the former.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
http://www.united-church.ca/beliefs/creed
Not dissimilar to the kiwi-Anglican one.
There's a breakfast cereal here that advertises with the slogan "I believe in breakfast."
And Tom T. Hall liked little baby ducks.
Just found the NZ Anglican one. The Creed according to Basil Fotherington-Thomas.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
With all due respect, there's nothing in that creed that's actually wrong, but it doesn't go far enough. What's more puzzling, is that when there are proper ones, why would anyone choose to have it in stead?
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
With all due respect, there's nothing in that creed that's actually wrong, but it doesn't go far enough. What's more puzzling, is that when there are proper ones, why would anyone choose to have it in stead?
The traditional creeds don't have any peace and justice in them. And there's all that jibber-jabber about proceedeth this and consubstantial that and incarnation the other thing. It's just not relevant.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The traditional creeds don't have any peace and justice in them. And there's all that jibber-jabber about proceedeth this and consubstantial that and incarnation the other thing. It's just not relevant.
Since everyone one talks to has a different view of what these two words might mean, apart from 'We think peace and justice are a good thing', what would you add? And since there are parts of Christendom that don't agree with the one from 381, does anyone really believe one could get even the churches that agree with the 381 version to add add any new phrase, however bland.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It seems to me that the point of having a creed is to mark off what you believe that is distinct from what others believe. The Trinity is fine, because there are plenty of people who don't believe it, so your creed is doing a job there. But peace and justice? Name me a person who's going to say "I don't believe in peace and justice," even if they are in the very act of murdering a widow and orphans for their home.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
Well, if they don't agree with the Creed then they're anathema. So are those who make additions.
[ 10. February 2015, 21:00: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The traditional creeds don't have any peace and justice in them. And there's all that jibber-jabber about proceedeth this and consubstantial that and incarnation the other thing. It's just not relevant.
Since everyone one talks to has a different view of what these two words might mean, apart from 'We think peace and justice are a good thing', what would you add? And since there are parts of Christendom that don't agree with the one from 381, does anyone really believe one could get even the churches that agree with the 381 version to add add any new phrase, however bland.
Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I don't think the Creeds need anything added to or taken from them. And I very much dislike "alternate" creeds.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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