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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW Report: Grace Family Church
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Baptist Trainfan
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Posted
It's quite clear that Torold didn't exactly like the Grave Family Church in Liverpool - well, I don't think I would have done either, but that may be a matter of personal taste! However I'd like to make a point and ask a question.
1. The MW report lists the church's denomination as "Evangelical Alliance". That cannot be correct as the EA is an affiliation of churches from many denominations (including many of my own Baptist ones). However I agree that, from the church's website, it is difficult to see what is its prime affiliation - if any.
2. On the website, the Pastor is described as someone who "has an amazing teaching gift that is relevant to everyday life".
I accept that the church wishes to promote itself, but how do Shipmates react to self-laudatory statements like this, which IMO seem to be becoming more common, especially but not exclusively among the "new churches". For instance, a church near here likes to tell everyone that its worship is "awesome" - in the popular understanding of the word; while lots of churches seem to describe themselves as "vibrant".
Somehow the use of this kind of language doesn't feel quite "right" - or am I just getting too old?
[ 11. February 2015, 10:47: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
I suspect your first para should read "It's quite clear that Torold didn't exactly like the Grace Family Church in Liverpool..."
Agree that Evangelical Alliance is not a denomination and in fact this says nothing about the church concerned. I think most likely they would call themselves non-denominational.
I don't have any opinions on the advertising copy - it is just that. Many churches make all kinds of claims.
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arse
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
2. On the website, the Pastor is described as someone who "has an amazing teaching gift that is relevant to everyday life".
Somehow, this doesn't sit well with me, even though I would be fine with a statement like "we are a vibrant worshiping community." I think I'm more comfortable with laudatory statements about the community as a whole as opposed to one particular staff member, even if he is the pastor.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I suspect your first para should read "It's quite clear that Torold didn't exactly like the Grace Family Church in Liverpool..."
Yes, indeed! ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
[ 11. February 2015, 13:41: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
The pastor studied at Rhema Bible Institute - enough said!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
The pastor studied at Rhema Bible Institute - enough said!
Really, what does this signify?
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Flinging wide the gates...
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Really, what does this signify?
It majors on prosperity teaching.
Grace Family Church also doesn't appear to be a registered charity unlike most churches.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Grace Family Church also doesn't appear to be a registered charity unlike most churches.
To me, this seems like a good thing. At least atheists can't complain about tax breaks going to this particular church!
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I suspect your first para should read "It's quite clear that Torold didn't exactly like the Grace Family Church in Liverpool..."
Yes, indeed!
I have to say I quite liked the original description though
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Grace Family Church also doesn't appear to be a registered charity unlike most churches.
To me, this seems like a good thing. At least atheists can't complain about tax breaks going to this particular church!
Is that really true or is its registration under a slightly different name? I'd be very worried about a church that isn't registered as a charity. Who is it accountable to?
Also, as a matter of curiosity, Howard Morgan obviously comes from Duluth, Georgia. Is Pastor Stacey a native scouser or does she come from somewhere else as well?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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mr cheesy
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Posted
I am pretty sure that churches with a low income are not required to be charities and some structures make the requirements needed to be a charity quite hard. But I could be wrong, it was a while ago that I looked into this.
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arse
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SvitlanaV2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'd be very worried about a church that isn't registered as a charity. Who is it accountable to?
To its members? To the EA?
Are house churches routinely registered with the authorities? I wouldn't have thought so, but I suppose that some of them find it advantageous.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
The Pastor is described as someone who "has an amazing teaching gift that is relevant to everyday life". I accept that the church wishes to promote itself, but how do Shipmates react to self-laudatory statements like this? <<snip>> A church near here likes to tell everyone that its worship is "awesome" . . . while lots of churches seem to describe themselves as "vibrant".
It's a sin of pride.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
The Pastor is described as someone who "has an amazing teaching gift that is relevant to everyday life". I accept that the church wishes to promote itself, but how do Shipmates react to self-laudatory statements like this? <<snip>> A church near here likes to tell everyone that its worship is "awesome" . . . while lots of churches seem to describe themselves as "vibrant".
It's a sin of pride.
My view, though, is that more churches ought to give some indication on their noticeboard of what they're like. Unless you're in the know you have no idea what you'll find when you go in. At least 'vibrant' and 'awesome' imply (I think) that you'll get 'modern' high-energy worship. IOW, if you want something quiet and reflective you'll do better elsewhere.
There's a URC place near me, and they have a notice board outside telling you that of all the different groups that use their buildings. For example, there's a poster for yoga and another for meditation, and both go into the benefits of what these practices can give you. But nothing anywhere tells you what the URC does or what it believes or what worship is like in this particular church. I don't see how this silence can be helpful. If nothing else, it gives the impression that the URC are the least interesting group to use the building.
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
Few churches would not want to be a registered charity, but registration can take time, depending on the jurisdiction.
If a church signboard advertises itself as awesome and vibrant, I usually head to a nearby Starbucks where I can wait upon the Lord with more success, but YMMV. Still, every now and then it's not a bad thing to be surprised.
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Is that really true or is its registration under a slightly different name? I'd be very worried about a church that isn't registered as a charity. Who is it accountable to?
Also, as a matter of curiosity, Howard Morgan obviously comes from Duluth, Georgia. Is Pastor Stacey a native scouser or does she come from somewhere else as well?
I've checked a little and can't find registration under any other name nor by location. Mind you, there's an outfit by the same name that was based in Bradford but which has now closed down.
Accountability seems to be limited to other Family Churches. Hence the Howard Morgan link I think.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
As far as I understand, there is no legal requirement for a church to be a Registered Charity. It an just be a voluntary association, but will lose out on both the accountability and benefits of being a charity. I have heard anecdotally of some Anabaptist-type churches that don't wish to be charities as they feel that involves making an unacceptable compromise with the State - I can't say if those stories are true though.
As it happens, the Pastor is a trustee of an ecumenical evangelistic organisation in Liverpool called "Together for the Harvest" which seems to have the aim of bringing churches together for evangelistic activity. It sounds perfectly fine (except their accounts are rarely submitted punctually!)
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
This church is very near where I live and in the parish of the church where I worship. I know very little about it, but it is where Anthony Walker (the teenager who was murdered a few years ago in an attack horrifically similar to that on Stephen Lawrence) and his family used to worship. The MW didn't mention the ethnic mix of the congregation, which I would guess has a much higher proportion of BME people than most local churches. A group from Grace Church occasionally set up a stall at the local farmers' market (as do we) and they are very friendly.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That sort of church repels me but I have considered doing a MW report on somewhere similar. However, I would very [much like] to find some positive things to say - the church I considered is packed with young people and also with working class people - something my C of E is not good at.
I think you'll find it hard to say something positive about them if their way of doing church 'repels' you. It'll come across as grudging admiration at best. And if you learn that it's this repellent quality itself that attracts their demographic, how will that benefit you? No at all, because you and your congregation probably won't want to make your church worship and atmosphere similarly repellent in order to achieve the same results.
Visiting other kinds of churches is always interesting, but rather than submitting yet another disapproving MW report from a church of a very different tradition, it might be more useful to visit a church fairly similar to your own that's been more successful at reaching the demographic you're interested in. At least you'll have a fighting chance of learning something that you'll actually be able to apply in your church context. IMHO.
[ 13. February 2015, 00:05: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That sort of church repels me
In the same way that the church you attend might repel some of us?
[ 13. February 2015, 11:43: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Being repelled is in the eye of the holder, of course, but in the MW Report in this case I felt that the level of repulsion went beyond the question of 'taste' - ie. there were issues about the way this particular outfit promotes itself, there was the issue about how the theme of the talk bore little - or no - relation to the scriptural texts cited etc.
I can't second guess, of course, how the Mystery Worshipper might have reacted in any other setting that was different to what they were used to ... nor can I tell how leo would react if, say, he visited a church that came from a tradition that was very different to his Anglo-Catholic one.
Sure, it's axiomatic that, by and large, a Baptist, say, isn't going to be particularly impressed by Solemn High Mass at St Nosebleed High of Crompton Magna - but I suspect that some Mystery Worshippers from a Baptist or other 'low-church'-y setting might respond well and positively to certain aspects.
I can't speak for Leo, but the issue at stake in the MW Report in this instance doesn't seem to be simply the apparent informality and style of the service - but the volume and what the Mystery Worshipper took to be a somewhat crass presentation.
You can be pretty informal and snake-belly low in terms of style and presentation and still not come across as badly as Grace Family Church appears to in this report.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Well, we've all heard a few slightly dodgy sermons, as well as pulpit exhortations to give more money to the church (but usually in aid of the ubiquitous roof or boiler problems rather than the preacher's DVDs...).
At least the people tried to be friendly. Plenty of MW Reports talk about careful sermons and lovely music, but if the atmosphere is a bit cold the church can be off-putting nevertheless.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You can be pretty informal and snake-belly low in terms of style and presentation and still not come across as badly as Grace Family Church appears to in this report.
That's true. But, if you are "repelled" by the basic format and ethos of the place, then you are unlikely to go hunting for positives to report.
On a deeper question - and with the possible danger of slipping into DH territory - there is a very real question as to the extent to which any church aligns, or chooses not to align, itself with current culture. At one end of the spectrum you have churches like Grace Family, which appears to have almost completely "bought into" contemporary culture; the same could be said of many Fresh Expressions. At the other end, you have the (say) Orthodox view, for whom church is a "given" and should never bow to accommodate itself to passing cultural fads.
(ISTM that one of the fundamental problems affecting Anglicanism in particular - and often being debated on the Ship - is really centred around this issue, even if it "presents" in various different guises.)
[ 13. February 2015, 13:13: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
My view, though, is that more churches ought to give some indication on their noticeboard of what they're like. Unless you're in the know you have no idea what you'll find when you go in.
To be fair, a lot of churches now do this on their websites.
To tell a funny story: a URC friend of mine went on holiday to a different part of Britain. On the Sunday he attended the local URC church, expecting the usual traditional and MOTR (nonconformist)t worship.
When he got into the church he was a bit upset to set guitars and music stands ready for use but, as he said, "I couldn't very well walk out, and they were very nice people". But the service itself confirmed his worse fears.
At the end, he went out of the door to check very carefully that this was, indeed, a URC church and found that it was. As he later told me, "Well I really think they should have had a health warning at the door!"
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Being repelled is in the eye of the holder, of course, but . . . there were issues about the way this particular outfit promotes itself, there was the issue about how the theme of the talk bore little - or no - relation to the scriptural texts cited etc.
I think that's the value of reports such as this. It's not that reporters seek out churches they know they're not going to like just to write snotty remarks about them -- but rather, it's that there are certain elements that appear to be common to churches such as this that we feel should be held up to the light of scrutiny. Sometimes it's hard to be objective, but that's what editors are for after all.
I'd encourage Leo to explore around, to visit churches that have caught his attention in one way or another, and certainly to report on them.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
My view, though, is that more churches ought to give some indication on their noticeboard of what they're like. Unless you're in the know you have no idea what you'll find when you go in.
To be fair, a lot of churches now do this on their websites.
True, but not all congregations have a dedicated website. I know quite a few that don't. And some of the websites say very little about the nature of worship.
Anyway, a website only works if you're actually online and looking for a local church in the first place. Many people will just be driving or walking past, and might be willing to give a second glance if the church noticeboard has something interesting to say. Certainly, I've tried to attend churches based on what's on a noticeboard. Unfortunately, the noticeboards sometimes aren't even up to date with the info that they do give, which is another problem!
[ 13. February 2015, 14:27: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've tried to attend churches based on what's on a noticeboard. Unfortunately, the noticeboards sometimes aren't even up to date with the info that they do give, which is another problem!
That's one of my pet gripes ... I have seen churches still advertising their Christmas Carol Service in April!
BTW please don't try to look at my own church's website - it has got rather out of date as I'm on Sabbatical leave at the moment! At least the noticeboards outside are being kept current.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Being repelled is in the eye of the holder, of course, but . . . there were issues about the way this particular outfit promotes itself, there was the issue about how the theme of the talk bore little - or no - relation to the scriptural texts cited etc.
I think that's the value of reports such as this. It's not that reporters seek out churches they know they're not going to like just to write snotty remarks about them -- but rather, it's that there are certain elements that appear to be common to churches such as this that we feel should be held up to the light of scrutiny. Sometimes it's hard to be objective, but that's what editors are for after all.
But to what end? The kind of people who want to 'scrutinise' the most are those who would hardly choose to join such churches anyway, and the people who do attend may be uninterested in what someone from an entirely different tradition and with a different theology thinks.
I imagine that the average High Church Anglican or MOTR Presbyterian would be relatively uninterested in what some undercover researcher from a tiny, theologically-suspect and relatively powerless charismatic congregation thought of their worship!
Churches can be undermined by bad PR, though, so I suppose there's the possibility of warning as yet uninformed people from the target demographic not to be taken in by the bright lights and warm welcome offered by some churches of a certain type....
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The kind of people who want to 'scrutinise' the most are those who would hardly choose to join such churches anyway
Well, there's scrutinize and then there's scrutinize: scrutinize meaning "This is what I saw here; what do you think of it?" and "I was repelled by what I saw here; aren't you also?" That's what I meant by objectivity. "o wad some power the giftie gie us . . ." as bonny Bobby Burns wrote.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I'm not someone who has a lot of faith in the notion of objectivity, TBH.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Objectivity is in the eye of the objector.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Objectivity is in the eye of the objector.
Get it out with Optrex.
(Sorry, couldn't resist it)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I imagine that the average High Church Anglican or MOTR Presbyterian would be relatively uninterested in what some undercover researcher from a tiny, theologically-suspect and relatively powerless charismatic congregation thought of their worship!
Well, they/we ought to be. Unless a church intends to become an inward-looking chaplaincy to its existing members, it should frequently scrutinise its practices with an eye to growth.
That doesn't mean that it should imitate happy clappies but it should re-evaluate things that convey a different message from the one intended.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I imagine that the average High Church Anglican or MOTR Presbyterian would be relatively uninterested in what some undercover researcher from a tiny, theologically-suspect and relatively powerless charismatic congregation thought of their worship!
Well, they/we ought to be. Unless a church intends to become an inward-looking chaplaincy to its existing members, it should frequently scrutinise its practices with an eye to growth.
That doesn't mean that it should imitate happy clappies but it should re-evaluate things that convey a different message from the one intended.
Interestingly, The CofE became quite good at learning from other churches from the 19th c. onwards. This is why none of its 'rivals' ever managed to usurp its place in the national consciousness. So it would be unfair for me to say that it has no interest in what others are doing.
I suppose it's a case of knowing what your strengths are, and what can be achieved with the resources, the people and the heritage that your particular church has to deal with.
One way that churches can get to learn from each other is through ecumenical engagement. I think it's a shame when churches in a local area don't know each other or do anything together. In an area I know, the local churches often come together for 'extra-curricula' youth work and activities. This makes sense when one church has expertise and staff, and another doesn't.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Hmmm ... out of interest is there any evidence that churches which have received 'bad PR'or critical comments in MW reports have suffered in consequence or changed their modus-operandi? In the case of Grace Family Church, I would be very surprised if they were that bothered or concerned about comments made here - unless they were positive or affirming ones.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Hmmm ... out of interest is there any evidence that churches which have received 'bad PR'or critical comments in MW reports have suffered in consequence or changed their modus-operandi? In the case of Grace Family Church, I would be very surprised if they were that bothered or concerned about comments made here - unless they were positive or affirming ones.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
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Posted
I do know of a church that was concerned about how they were called out for being extremely unfriendly and supposedly made an effort to be more welcoming. I understand that nothing has changed.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
As I said in an earlier post, the kind of people who go to that sort of church might not be all that bothered about the bad report. (After all, they seemed to be enjoying themselves - which you can't say for every church.) But the 'bad PR', I suggested, could serve to warn off others who might attend in the future. Who knows?
TBH, I'm still not clear who the MW Reports are actually for, especially the ones of this type.
[ 15. February 2015, 11:44: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Who are Mystery Worship reports for? Why, us of course ... just ss the discussion threads are for anyone who chooses to engage with them or the small ads in the local paper are for anyone who chooses to read those.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Adam.
Like as the
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Posted
Large issues like that must be harder to work on, but I know of one church that I MW'd back in the days of the giants. I complained that they had a booklet of psalm chants but never told anyone which one was being used for which psalm. That changed shortly after the report came out.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
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Posted
I am aware of one comment we received on a report where the church thanked us for pointing out the ways in which a visitor might be turned off, and promised to try to do better. Most comments we receive, however, on critical reports tend to be defensive.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Who are Mystery Worship reports for? Why, us of course ... just ss the discussion threads are for anyone who chooses to engage with them or the small ads in the local paper are for anyone who chooses to read those.
... IOW for those of us who are curious about what happens in other people's churches. Fair enough. I prefer this to the loftier argument above that there's some sort of duty to 'scrutinise' the ways in which other people worship.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
*I'd be very worried about a church that isn't registered as a charity*
Our church (a bog standard mildly evangelical Baptist Union congregation) isn't. Churches with a turnover of under £100k aren't obliged to register, and the ever increasing mountain of paperwork charitable status entails isn't terribly appealing. I would guess that plenty of small to medium sized churches of a Baptist or Congregationalist persuasion aren't registered. This doesn't necessarily make them 'worrying'.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
*I'd be very worried about a church that isn't registered as a charity*
Our church (a bog standard mildly evangelical Baptist Union congregation) isn't. Churches with a turnover of under £100k aren't obliged to register, and the ever increasing mountain of paperwork charitable status entails isn't terribly appealing. I would guess that plenty of small to medium sized churches of a Baptist or Congregationalist persuasion aren't registered. This doesn't necessarily make them 'worrying'.
Maybe the paperwork is different in Scotland but we just fill in a form and send OSCR a copy of our accounts. What does your mountain consist of?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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