Ship of Fools: 10 6 10 6 hymn metre

Thread: 10 6 10 6 hymn metre Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :

The intereeb seems beteft of tunes in this metre; does anyone know of any?

Posted by Albert Ross (# 3241) on :

Found two:
"Praise Him" https://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/c/1
"There is no love ... " https://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/h/1012 (with refrain)

Posted by Albert Ross (# 3241) on :

Three more here http://library.timelesstruths.org/music/_/106/?sortby=meter but all with refrain

and more
http://www.hymntime.com/tch/mid/met/10.6.10.6.htm

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

How does this 10 6 10 6 work? Is it the number of syllables / notes in each line?

Posted by Albert Ross (# 3241) on :

Yes - see "Meter (hymn)" on Wiki (can't post link because it contains brackets)

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
How does this 10 6 10 6 work? Is it the number of syllables / notes in each line?

Yup,that's how it works. Hymnbooks will show the metre of a hymn's words, to make it easier to choose an alternative tune if the set tune is not known or liked.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Meter (hymn). Thank you, I didn't know about that.

Posted by Teufelchen (# 10158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
How does this 10 6 10 6 work? Is it the number of syllables / notes in each line?

Yep. Wikipedia has the details in its article "Meter (hymn)", which I am weirdly not allowed to link to from here.

t

ETA: Ninja'd.

[ 25. February 2015, 22:23: Message edited by: Teufelchen ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I think it is a thing from English-speaking countries? Tellingly, only the English Wikipedia has an article for it.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

The Hymnal 1940 (the Episcopal Church in the U.S.A.'s previous hymnal) had a metrical index; our Hymnal 1982 does not, but I seem to recall that the Accompaniment edition does.

The only 10.6.10.6 listed in 1940 is St. Nicholas ("O Brightness of the immortal Father's face...").

Posted by Albert Ross (# 3241) on :

dyfrig - did you include the full stops (10.6.10.6) in your search?

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
The Hymnal 1940 (the Episcopal Church in the U.S.A.'s previous hymnal) had a metrical index; our Hymnal 1982 does not, but I seem to recall that the Accompaniment edition does.

The only 10.6.10.6 listed in 1940 is St. Nicholas ("O Brightness of the immortal Father's face...").

The Accompanist edition of the Hymnal 1982 lists only #37, hymn tune "Evening Hymn" by Gerald Near.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

There is also a tune called Manor Street which can be found in Common Praise.

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

The Little Flock brethren hymnook book we used to use had metre printed at top of each hymn. Fine if you already knew other tunes of that metre. There was also a book of melodies, not harmonies. This was indexed solely by metre, although name was given above each set of music.

No instruments were used in the meeting, so sometimes it took a while for someone to start a hymn after remembering a suitable tune. Not to mention the strong singer who usually had learnt tune but learnt wrongly!

[ 26. February 2015, 01:40: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
How does this 10 6 10 6 work? Is it the number of syllables / notes in each line?
Yep. Wikipedia has the details in its article "Meter (hymn)", which I am weirdly not allowed to link to from here.

Try this
Tiny URL is brilliant!

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Hymnary.org lists these .

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

LeRoc

Do you know of "Metrical Psalms" which are sung by most Reformed* churches? Guess where the word "Metrical" comes from.

No I am not thinking LeRoc has Scottish ancestory. I believe the earliest Reformed ones were written in Strasbourg while John Calvin was there or maybe just before.

Jengie

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Jengie jon: Do you know of "Metrical Psalms" which are sung by most Reformed* churches? Guess where the word "Metrical" comes from.

I was born within the Dutch Reformed Church (it later merged into the Protestant Church in the Netherlands). I looked up Metrical Psalter, and it tells me that the Psalms in the Liedboek voor de Kerken (the hymn book that this church used until recently and which I know well) were based on the Metrical Psalter. I never heard the name 'Metrical Psalter' though, nor have I seen the 8.6.8.6. notation. This may just be a gap in my knowledge.

Something that some very traditional Reformed congregations in the Netherlands do (not my congregation) is called 'whole note psalm singing', in which they sing the psalm in a non-rhythmical way on semibreves / whole notes. Here is a video of Psalm 25, there are many more on the internet.

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
The intereeb seems beteft of tunes in this metre; does anyone know of any?

Now that people have given you helpful answers... can I ask why you're asking?

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I think it is a thing from English-speaking countries? Tellingly, only the English Wikipedia has an article for it.

No, the "Interwiki" feature isn't always 100% perfect about finding every matching result in another language: this would be what you're looking for.

[ 26. February 2015, 13:50: Message edited by: Knopwood ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Knopwood: No, the "Interwiki" feature isn't always 100% perfect about finding every matching result in another language: this would be what you're looking for.

The articles's title is about poetic metre, and it has a Wikidata link (it isn't called interwiki anymore) to metre (poetry). The whole idea is that hymnic metre is different from poetic metre.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

No, that's an example of what I mean. Topics are often subdivided differently in different Wikipedias, so there isn't always an exact one-for-one correlation between articles. The English-language Wikipedia is the only one to have an article dedicated to poetic metre specifically as it relates to hymnody. Because it also has an article on poetic metre more generally, that's what gets "matched" to the equivalent Portuguese article, and the software doesn't allow two English articles to be paired with a single article in another language. But that shouldn't lead you to believe that "hymnic metre is different from poetic metre." Hymns are poems, and the concept is the same.

[ 26. February 2015, 14:21: Message edited by: Knopwood ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Knopwood: But that shouldn't lead you to believe that "hymnic metre is different from poetic metre." Hymns are poems, and the concept is the same.

The way I understand it, they are different measuring systems. Poetic metre measures feet (iambes, trochees etc.), hymnic metre measures syllables.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

Yes, according to the relevant English-language article, musicians may sometimes count the same lines differently, but the same system is used. So for instance, at Common metre, we have Amazing Grace listed alongside examples from Woodsworth and Dickinson.

All of which takes us a bit afield from your original question (Is it an English thing) and its answer (No).

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Knopwood: All of which takes us a bit afield from your original question (Is it an English thing) and its answer (No).

You're confusing the general with the specific. Yes, most countries have something like metre. But I've never encountered people saying things like '8.6.8.6.' outside of English-speaking countries, so I still suspect it's an Anglo-Saxon thing.

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

Perry's Index lists four tunes in this metre, viz. Ignatius (aka Llanthony Abbey), in the Mirfield Mission Hymnbook, Irish Church Hymnal, Redemption Hymnal; Lux Vera, in Ancient & Modern Standard; Manor Street, in Songs of Praise; Praise Him (Bailey), in Hymns of Faith, Baptist Hymn Book (1962), Congregational Praise, Church Hymnary III, Salvation Army Tune Book. Perry was published in 1980, so you may find these or others in newer books.

The only hymn I can think of in this metre is one I recall from Sunday School aeons ago, namely 'Praise him, praise him, all ye little children, He is love, he is love'. Repetitive, passim, and in retrospect pretty dire. These words appear in CH3 as 'Anonymous' to a tune by Carey Bonner; in CP (with slightly different words, ascribed to the Blessèd Percy) to the same tune, but attributed to one E.R. Bailey. In Sunday School we had the earlier Church Hymnary and a collection called 'Child Songs' compiled by Carey Bonner, so I must have come across it from the latter. Did the editors of CH3 get the thing from that and muddle the authorship? Manor Street in SP is by Martin Shaw, and is set to the same form as words as in CP, ascribed to 'SPV'. SPV = Songs of Praise Version, i.e. something taken from someone else and 'amended' by the editors (inc. the Blessèd Percy, renowned for his improvements to e.g. Bunyan).

Lux Vera (by John Bacchus Dykes) is set to Wm Bright's "Still throned in Heav’n, to men in unbelief" in AMS.

I have no idea of what words go to the first of the tunes, not having access to the books in question.

Over and above these, the Bristol Tune Book offers Via lucis (George Lomas), set to 'Eye hath not seen Thy glory' and S. John (Berthold Tours) set to 'There is no love like the love of Jesus'.

[ 26. February 2015, 21:41: Message edited by: Metapelagius ]

Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :

Thanks all. Strange how none of these showed up when I looked.

The reason for asking is that I'm looking for a tune to sing the Cymraeg version of Phos Hilarion to.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Helpful Hosting Hat Hoisted High

Nasty little parentheses in web addresses can be eradicated by utilization of TinyURL.

Which is a potential opening line in 31.x.x.x.x metre (aka turgid Anglican chant)

/Helpful Hosting Hat Hoisted High

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Helpful Hosting Hat Hoisted High

Nasty little parentheses in web addresses can be eradicated by utilization of TinyURL.

Which is a potential opening line in 31.x.x.x.x metre (aka turgid Anglican chant)

/Helpful Hosting Hat Hoisted High

Errm ...

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

If you're looking for something more modern (and I think with Phos hilarion you may find this works) try something in 10.6.10.6.D - There is a Redeemer by Melody Green.

You can find this (under the name Y Mae in waredwr) at number 346 in Caneuon Ffydd

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If you're looking for something more modern (and I think with Phos hilarion you may find this works) try something in 10.6.10.6.D - There is a Redeemer by Melody Green.

You can find this (under the name Y Mae in waredwr) at number 346 in Caneuon Ffydd

Is this meter right for the Welsh version? In English, the first phrase ("There is a redeemer, Jesus God's own Son") is either two lines (6,5) or a single line of 11 syllables - or am I missing something?

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
The reason for asking is that I'm looking for a tune to sing the Cymraeg version of Phos Hilarion to.

That's quite hilarious, but shouldn't is be "Phos hilaron"? Or is that the Cymraeg version?
[Razz]

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Most of the main hymn books have a metrical index in the back - great for when you want to put words and tunes together. But when I looked in the back of the 2 main hymn books that my church has used over several years, 10 6 10 6 doesn't feature at all. 10 7 10 7 comes closest - no. 507 Worlebury (Hymns A&M, New Standard). Perhaps the solution is to look more specifically at Welsh Hymn Books, if the metre is more common to Welsh lyrics?

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

The Salvation Army has no 10.6.10.6 songs

Posted by gog (# 15615) on :

Music for small churches has these

Also Tune 336 in Caneuon Ffydd

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Just looked again at the alleged tune we have in our tune book - Ptaise Him. Yes indeed we do have it! But in our metrical index it's lumped together with all the other 'irregular' metres and not given a numbering like the others. I think it may be because it's the only tune of that metre and there is only one song that goes with it so it can't be used for any other song, thus rendering the metrical specification useless.

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
The reason for asking is that I'm looking for a tune to sing the Cymraeg version of Phos Hilarion to.

My default response to being in this situation would have just been to pick a psalm tone to sing it to.

Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :

Many thanks for all the ideas.

Sadly, CFf 336 is trochaic, whilst ap Ceredigion's words are iambic. Add that to weedy picking on a ukelele and the results are....interesting. [Help]

Posted by gog (# 15615) on :

dyfrig

what is the first line in Welsh, might be able to dig something out that way

Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :

The full text can be found at the bottom of this Wikipedia article

Posted by gog (# 15615) on :

According to a quick google search it's in Emynau'r Eglwys no.238 from the 1950's (Church in Wales hymn book) this may help if any mouldering in the back of a local parish

Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :

I always wonder how far people are willing to go with mixing up the tunes. 'Away in a Manger' fits so nicely to the Soviet Union National Anthem…

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

My hymnology prof once remarked that while it was possible to exchange the tunes for 'A Mighty Fortress' and 'What Child Is This' it was not something to be encouraged.

Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
I always wonder how far people are willing to go with mixing up the tunes. 'Away in a Manger' fits so nicely to the Soviet Union National Anthem…

and therefore vice versa. Wonder what Mr Putin would think.....

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