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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Churchmanship in Pentecostalism
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
Long-serving shipmates will recall I'm a high Anglican. I know very little of Pentecostalism, but I'm curious.
Down the road from me are two churches, both in converted cinemas. They face each other across a main road. As far as I can tell, they are both Pentecostal in tradition. (Their names don't give this away - like many churches in this area, they have idiosyncratic free-church names like 'Christian Church of Christ' and 'Jesus Miracle Ministries'.) One of these two churches advertises itself with a picture of a smiling man in a suit, which is about what I'd expect. The other one is styled as a cathedral, and is headed up by 'Apostle the Rev'd So-and-so Such-and-such and the Rev'd Mrs Such-and-Such'. Their soi-disant apostle is pictured as a serious looking gentleman wearing a cassock with a half-cape over the top in a fine red and black pattern. His church's services include vigils and other seeming ritual activities along side the regular fare of gatherings for praise. Another Pentecostal church near me has a big banner out front with an image of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, of the sort that I saw a lot of in Catholic high school.
All these manifestations have got me thinking: is there any sort of consistent spectrum of churchmanship within Pentecostalism, as there is in Anglicanism? What's the origin of seemingly very Roman Catholic elements in this tradition?
No bashing on Pentecostals or their ministers' orders, please.
t
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Little devil
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Cameron PM
Shipmate
# 18142
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Posted
I won't be able to tell you anything matter-of-fact, but I have experienced something similar with Pentecostalism myself. There's a new Pentecostal "tabernacle" built out in the centre of town, which goes at all costs every route to avoid using the word church. Then there's "The Pentecostal Church" twenty minutes away from the tabernacle. I've never been inside either one of them, but from the outside looking in, they're stylistically similar.
I've never known Pentecostals to use cassocks, so maybe one of those churches aren't pentecostal but rather some splinter off of Methodism or maybe even a different denomination altogether. Same goes for the image of the Sacred Heart - never heard tell of it being used by Pentecostals.
It could also be possible that one of them are in the Anglican continuum, and although I'm not in it I have first hand experience with it. Some communities tend to use vestments and all that is Catholic or High Church Anglican, yet once the service starts they're all jump, shout, let it all out.
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Your call.
Posts: 59 | From: Talamh an Eisc | Registered: Jun 2014
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:
I've never known Pentecostals to use cassocks, so maybe one of those churches aren't pentecostal but rather some splinter off of Methodism or maybe even a different denomination altogether. Same goes for the image of the Sacred Heart - never heard tell of it being used by Pentecostals.
It could also be possible that one of them are in the Anglican continuum, and although I'm not in it I have first hand experience with it. Some communities tend to use vestments and all that is Catholic or High Church Anglican, yet once the service starts they're all jump, shout, let it all out.
The church with the Sacred Heart banner is definitely Pentecostal: their banner specifically uses the term. And none of these churches is Anglican; Anglicanism is not the force it was round here, and of the three churches we had 100 years ago, one has been demolished, one is shared with an Orthodox congregation, and the other is the historic parish church where I have sometimes worshipped. If there was a charismatic revival in local Anglicanism, I'd have noticed.
t
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Little devil
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Cameron PM
Shipmate
# 18142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:
I've never known Pentecostals to use cassocks, so maybe one of those churches aren't pentecostal but rather some splinter off of Methodism or maybe even a different denomination altogether. Same goes for the image of the Sacred Heart - never heard tell of it being used by Pentecostals.
It could also be possible that one of them are in the Anglican continuum, and although I'm not in it I have first hand experience with it. Some communities tend to use vestments and all that is Catholic or High Church Anglican, yet once the service starts they're all jump, shout, let it all out.
The church with the Sacred Heart banner is definitely Pentecostal: their banner specifically uses the term. And none of these churches is Anglican; Anglicanism is not the force it was round here, and of the three churches we had 100 years ago, one has been demolished, one is shared with an Orthodox congregation, and the other is the historic parish church where I have sometimes worshipped. If there was a charismatic revival in local Anglicanism, I'd have noticed.
t
Now my interest is piqued - there must be as you said, some sort of churchmanship within Pentecostalism. My best guess now is that one could be Pentecostal and the other Oneness Pentecostal - the ones who don't believe in the Holy Trinity.
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Your call.
Posts: 59 | From: Talamh an Eisc | Registered: Jun 2014
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I remember when I was in North London, Carribbeans at my Anglican church had worshipped with Pentecostals and said they were quite happy to do so in future.
They were far less hung up about avoiding catholic shibboleths as some old fashioned middle of the road Anglicans.
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
We had a thread on high-church Pentecostalism some time back, which seems to have fallen prey to the winnowing fork, but I did find this article.
[ 05. March 2015, 02:53: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I can't speak with any authority, but my thoughts are:
1. Old-fashioned British Pentecostalism was rooted in working-class Evangelical culture. It has certainly changed in recent years, to the extent that it has been changed by the Charismatic movement. But I think it would still be informal and non-liturgical; indeed, "liturgy" and "ceremony" would be regarded as the enemies of Spirit-filled spontaneity. (Of course, the churches have in fact evolved non-written liturgies of their own).
2. Some of the African (and possibly Caribbean) churches are definitely liturgical in their approach - e.g. Cherubim and Seraphim. And - although they aren't Pentecostal - I know that mainline Jamaican Baptist churches also tend to be more formal than their "home-grown" equivalents.
3. Speaking historically, that wonderful institution the Catholic Apostolic Church (which had its roots both in the Albury Conferences which also spawned one branch of Brethrenism, and also in the Church of Scotland) elaborated a very rich liturgy. Of course this was the time of the Oxford Movement and I don't know if that had any influence, deliberate or subconscious.
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
All these manifestations have got me thinking: is there any sort of consistent spectrum of churchmanship within Pentecostalism, as there is in Anglicanism? What's the origin of seemingly very Roman Catholic elements in this tradition?
In short, my experience doesn't lend itself to saying there is a consistent spectrum, but there is a very broad spectrum.
If you will permit me an analogy, pentecostalism isn't a pedigree tradition as compared to anglicanism or catholicism. It's more of a mongrel where each church or group of churches pick what they see as the best parts of another tradition and drop other parts. So what kind of expressions they use are often dependent on what they have been exposed to.
I suspect there may be an element of aping the more traditionalist churches under the pretences that ecclesiastically conservative elements add legitimacy.
The use of some terminology such as apostle or bishop is often more etymological than anything else. For example, the etymology of apostle simply means one who is sent out - so that term is used of someone who the church recognises as having a calling. It is not a claim to any kind of apostolic succession.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
Pentecostal by churchmanship or spirituality; or Pentecostal by denomination - there is a difference.
Pentecostalism within Anglicanism, vestments may be worn and incense and ceremonial may or may not happen, depending whether the underlying churchmanship is catholic, MTR, or evangelical. There may be less emphasis on liturgical format and services may tend to last longer, possibly two or three hours in total.
Pentecostal as a denomination - there is less likely to be robed clergy (or robed laity for that matter) and liturgical orders of service may be non-existant.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I had some dealings with a black pentecostal church many years ago because they used our building. They met after our Evensong & Benediction was over and didn't need us to defumigate the lingering incense.
I was quite intrigued by the variety of robes they wore - many women wore Canterbury caps, such as would be seen on lady choir members in the C of E on the old days.
Many wore gowns of different courts and I've seen blue cottas.
One wore a biretta, ironically as our priests had just given up wearing them.
The chief pastor is called 'Bishop'.
I don't think it is about churchpersonship. It is more to do with wearing whatever 'bling' honours God.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Pentecostal by churchmanship or spirituality; or Pentecostal by denomination - there is a difference.
Pentecostalism within Anglicanism, vestments may be worn and incense and ceremonial may or may not happen, depending whether the underlying churchmanship is catholic, MTR, or evangelical. There may be less emphasis on liturgical format and services may tend to last longer, possibly two or three hours in total.
Pentecostal as a denomination - there is less likely to be robed clergy (or robed laity for that matter) and liturgical orders of service may be non-existant.
Yes, I've heard it suggested that the charismatic movement in the Church of England came more out of the Evangelical wing, whereas in the Episcopal Church it affected Anglo-Catholic parishes more. Either way, charismatic Catholicism, whether Anglican or Roman, is more common than and must be distinguished from these groups of Pentecostal lineage which have adopted a higher ecclesiology and more "celebratory" and worshipful (and less Eurocentric) vesture, like these folks.
This is part of a broader trend of evangelical-sacramental "Convergence" (like the Campus Crusade for Christ members who formed the Evangelical Orthodox Church, much of which was later received by Antioch). Perhaps a sort of inverse parallel might be drawn with the African Orthodox Church, which combines a liturgical order with exuberant worship in the black church tradition.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
...groups of Pentecostal lineage which have adopted a higher ecclesiology and more "celebratory" and worshipful (and less Eurocentric) vesture, like these folks.
That looks rather like the style of the 'cathedral' group in my OP.
t
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Little devil
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Pseudo-Episcopalian arms, presiding bishop in papl white, no less- remarkable. Interesting to see though that the UCCC website doesn't actually seem to say how many congregations they have. I know nothign of them so am not running them down, but it does all have a bit of a flavour of episcopi vagantes to me, and I wonder whether any of the churches we're discussing have come out of that tradition: I don't have a copy of Brandreth, Bain, or Anson at the moment but IIRC some of those offshoots did take root in American black communities.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Teufelchen:
One of these two churches advertises itself with a picture of a smiling man in a suit, which is about what I'd expect. The other one is styled as a cathedral, and is headed up by 'Apostle the Rev'd So-and-so Such-and-such and the Rev'd Mrs Such-and-Such'. Their soi-disant apostle is pictured as a serious looking gentleman wearing a cassock with a half-cape over the top in a fine red and black pattern. His church's services include vigils and other seeming ritual activities along side the regular fare of gatherings for praise. Another Pentecostal church near me has a big banner out front with an image of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, of the sort that I saw a lot of in Catholic high school.
Pentecostalism in the United States most often looks like the first example. Clerics in cassocks with high church sounding titles are typical of one strand of predominantly African-American Pentecostalism. The now disgraced and I believe dearly departed Earl Paulk also went in for cassocks and such. As to the last example, devotion to the Sacred Heart is not a part of Pentecostalism whatsoever. Whoever made the banner liked the image and went with it.
[ 05. March 2015, 16:53: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Pseudo-Episcopalian arms, presiding bishop in papl white, no less- remarkable. Interesting to see though that the UCCC website doesn't actually seem to say how many congregations they have. I know nothign of them so am not running them down, but it does all have a bit of a flavour of episcopi vagantes to me, and I wonder whether any of the churches we're discussing have come out of that tradition: I don't have a copy of Brandreth, Bain, or Anson at the moment but IIRC some of those offshoots did take root in American black communities.
The UCCC has 20,000 members worldwide. Even Pentecostals who elect bishops aren't concerned with apostolic succession. While the PB's bio is a bit pretentious, he at least earned a D.Min from a respectable seminary which is rather uncommon among Pentecostal pastors putting Dr. in front of their name.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
The strand of high-church Pentecostalism referred to above is by and large motivated by the work of J. Delano Ellis II, a bishop connected with the Church of God in Christ (I think). There are videos on youtube of episcopal consecrations and such; it's interesting to see what they retain and what they discard from catholic tradition.
Ellis has written a number of manuals for Pentecostals who wish to recover a liturgical/hierarchical ethos. Also, don't we have at least one shipmate who's involved in this strand of Pentecostalism?
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Even Pentecostals who elect bishops aren't concerned with apostolic succession. While the PB's bio is a bit pretentious, he at least earned a D.Min from a respectable seminary which is rather uncommon among Pentecostal pastors putting Dr. in front of their name.
Not quite true. The above-mentioned Bishop Ellis has received episcopal consecration from a Syro-Chaldean bishop, and insists on apostolic succession for other bishops in his jurisdiction/denomination.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Yes, I remember PentEcclesiastic had a thread about Bishop Ellis's "College of Bishops". He hasn't posted in a few years now.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Even Pentecostals who elect bishops aren't concerned with apostolic succession. While the PB's bio is a bit pretentious, he at least earned a D.Min from a respectable seminary which is rather uncommon among Pentecostal pastors putting Dr. in front of their name.
Not quite true. The above-mentioned Bishop Ellis has received episcopal consecration from a Syro-Chaldean bishop, and insists on apostolic succession for other bishops in his jurisdiction/denomination.
Well, I'll be darn.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The UCCC has 20,000 members worldwide... While the PB's bio is a bit pretentious, he at least earned a D.Min from a respectable seminary which is rather uncommon among Pentecostal pastors putting Dr. in front of their name.
Well that sounds OK. I did think that personally the PB semed to have some substance, but then I think there were some good eggs among the episcopi vagantes of the 'cclassic' period, too.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
In Latin America, Pentecostal Churches have grown in a Roman Catholic culture (and also, a culture that has syncretic African and/or Amerindian traditions), so it is common to see stereotypically "Catholic" elements being employed be Pentecostals. In addition. religious identity is more fluid in Latin America, so many people who attend Pentecostal services also attend Catholic Mass from time to time (and vice versa). I would imagine that in parts of Africa, the Caribbean, and Asia where Catholicism has been historically important but Pentecostalism (often homegrown) has made inroads, this is also true.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
One more thing about the image of the Sacred Heard of Jesus - a lot of secular young people do not know much about religion at all nowadays or about the finer differences between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism and the imagery of different Christian traditions. So when you see religious humor made by young secular people, it often will use a "Catholic" image like the Sacred Heart of Jesus to represent Christianity's general image of Jesus. The image of the Sacred Heart is so common that people who do not know much about the different kinds of Christianity just assume it is a generic image of Jesus. Some secular young people even think Catholic images of Mary are also standard Christian images that any Christian would use, although they are more likely to know that Protestants tend to not use images of Mary that much in their tradition, if they know that much at all, than they are to know that Protestants tend to not use images of the Sacred Heart of Jesus.
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Stonespring:
In a Hollywood movie when a scene taking place in a protestant church is being foreshadowed, it's always fun to guess how many out-of-place Catholic trappings there will be. In general, the "lower" the denomination, the "higher" the trappings.
There's a scene in Kingsman that's supposed to be set in some sort of Westboro Baptist style church in Kentucky. They manage to avoid Sacred Hearts, Madonnas, and icons in general, but there are still WAY too many candles on display.
(I started a thread on this topic a few years back, and it garnered some interesting replies, but seems to have vanished with the recent purging.)
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
To go back a bit, there is a rumour of the adoption of devotion to the Sacred Heart amongst Congregationalists in Liverpool in the nineteenth century.
As I say it is rumour.
Jengie
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Even Pentecostals who elect bishops aren't concerned with apostolic succession. While the PB's bio is a bit pretentious, he at least earned a D.Min from a respectable seminary which is rather uncommon among Pentecostal pastors putting Dr. in front of their name.
Not quite true. The above-mentioned Bishop Ellis has received episcopal consecration from a Syro-Chaldean bishop, and insists on apostolic succession for other bishops in his jurisdiction/denomination.
I note that the bishop's wife is given a courtesy title (Lady) too.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
In a Hollywood movie when a scene taking place in a protestant church is being foreshadowed, it's always fun to guess how many out-of-place Catholic trappings there will be. In general, the "lower" the denomination, the "higher" the trappings.
My mother was watching The Young and the Restless the other week and there was a baptism. The baptistery managed to combine a Sacred Heart-themed stained glass window, a copy of the Heinrich Hofmann painting of Christ favoured by Mormons, and a priest in English surplice and red stole.
Years ago, there was a joke on Gilmore Girls involving the Korean Seventh-day Adventist family and Stations of the Cross, which would presumably be anathema to them.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Knopwood wrote:
quote:
Years ago, there was a joke on Gilmore Girls involving the Korean Seventh-day Adventist family and Stations of the Cross, which would presumably be anathema to them.
That was one of the bloopers mentioned on the now-defunct thread. I could list more, from that thread or elsewhere, but I'd be here all day.
The most plausible theory advanced on that thread was that Hollywood writers lazily combine the two most common images of American Christianity, ie. Catholic icoography and bible-thumping protestantism.
I should read into the record that on one of the very few times that I visited someone in a trailer park, her living room was decked out with Catholic iconography.
(Not that trailer-parks are a priori protestant, but, let's face it, they're pretty much a pop-culture stand-in for southern whites who can be presumed as non-papist.)
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
My son is a theatre "techie" although he's done TV work too. I've often kidded him on the fact that when, in a TV murder mystery or drama, someone rushes into a church, there is (a) always a priest or minister at hand in the building, usually praying in the front pew (surely they should be out working in the parish); and (b) loads of candles burning (who lit and paid for them; and what about the insurance implications?).
His comment is that "I can't tell the Director that, I just have to do my job".
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
The two "established" Pentecostal churches in the UK are the Elim churches and the Assembly of God churches. I understand one was a split from the other many years ago. Neither of those churches use gowns or vestments as far as I know, which admittedly, is not very far. Though I have been in both and have very happy memories of the family-feeling and friendliness of both.
But there is nothing whatsoever to prevent anyone setting up an independent church, which may be in the pentecostal/charismatic/falling down/dancing in the aisles tradition. And they are usually called some sort of "Hallelujah" name.
You pays your money and takes your choice!
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Down the road from me are two churches, both in converted cinemas. They face each other across a main road. As far as I can tell, they are both Pentecostal in tradition. (Their names don't give this away - like many churches in this area, they have idiosyncratic free-church names like 'Christian Church of Christ' and 'Jesus Miracle Ministries'.) One of these two churches advertises itself with a picture of a smiling man in a suit, which is about what I'd expect. The other one is styled as a cathedral, and is headed up by 'Apostle the Rev'd So-and-so Such-and-such and the Rev'd Mrs Such-and-Such'. Their soi-disant apostle is pictured as a serious looking gentleman wearing a cassock with a half-cape over the top in a fine red and black pattern. His church's services include vigils and other seeming ritual activities along side the regular fare of gatherings for praise.
t
I suspect that I know the location of these churches - one of them was MW'd a few years ago. I can speak for that one which meets in an iconic ex-cinema. This is an 'independent' church, possibly with branches in West Africa. Members are almost exclusively African by background. The Apostle is in some demand as a speaker at like-minded pentecostal gatherings. They spend a lot of money on publicity. I suspect, from their website, that the other church also is 'African' in membership (if I have got the right churches.)
Generally speaking, African pentecostal churches do their own thing. They are not under the authority of anyone else. They don't even have a loose authority structure like the 'New Churches' - New Frontiers, for example). They self-style their leaders. They seem to pick and choose their 'icons' without regard to theology or tradition. They often do a lot of 'aid' work in the community and also hold regular teaching meetings for members. I believe (from observation) that members are often from a particular West African country (rarely East African) - Ghana, Nigeria, Sierra Leone are the most common, I understand. They usually are huge and have lots of money and like to live in large buildings like cinemas and old warehouses.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
It has just suddenly occurred to me that we might be making a big mistake here. There is a common assumption that all Black Churches are Pentecostal. That is to ignore African Indigenous Churches. They have different histories having arisen on different continents in different social settings.
I really know nothing more about them apart from a brief lecture when doing the Liberation theology part of subsidiary course in theology in my degree some thirty years ago. I know they combined elements of African religious practice in with Christianity and have markedly different practices to Western Christianity but further than that I cannot tell. However I think there is a good chance that at least some of the "African Churches" are from this stream rather than Pentecostalism.
Jengie
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
The two "established" Pentecostal churches in the UK are the Elim churches and the Assembly of God churches. I understand one was a split from the other many years ago.
They are differently organised (one is more congregational I think, one more centralised). There was a further split from Elim to form the "Bible Pattern" churches, but I don't think they now exist. The other "historic" Pentecostal Church, springing from a Welsh root, is the Apostolic Church.
Don't forget that two of the major proponents of Pentecostalism in Britain in the early days were Anglican: Alexander Boddy and Cecil Polhill-Turner. But they rather got frozen out of the emerging movement around 1915, I think social class had a lot to do with that, as most Pentes were working-class. People like Smith Wigglesworth and the Jeffery brothers came more to the forefront.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
It has just suddenly occurred to me that we might be making a big mistake here. There is a common assumption that all Black Churches are Pentecostal. That is to ignore African Indigenous Churches.
Good point. And don't forget that there are a lot of Jamaican Baptists who, at least in the past, have tended to be quite conservative, defining themselves as not Pentecostal; and then there are many Ghanaian and Gambian Methodists ...
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
posted by Kopwood quote:
My mother was watching The Young and the Restless the other week and there was a baptism. The baptistery managed to combine a Sacred Heart-themed stained glass window, a copy of the Heinrich Hofmann painting of Christ favoured by Mormons, and a priest in English surplice and red stole.
In the 1980s/90s there was a wonderful place on Vauxhall Bridge Road in London called the Padre Pio Bookshop which sold the most amazing religious tat ever.
I helped a friend with a purchase for an Exclusive Brethren difficult relative of a 3D portrait of Our Lord with exposed Sacred Heart which, when 2 AA batteries were fitted, would flash on and off
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
In the US, I believe, the "black church" is most commonly associated with Methodist and Baptist bodies (either historically black denominations in those traditions, or black congregations within "integrated" denominations). Mind you, there is also a history of black Episcopal parishes (and the African Orthodox I've mentioned have, I would argue, a historical significance out of proportion to their size). And certainly we can't overlook the heritage of African American Roman Catholics.
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
Yes, those are prime examples of the Methodist groups I had in mind, along with the Christian (formerly Coloured) ME Church, as well as the British ME Church here in Canada, which was founded when the Fugitive Slaves Act made it unsafe for Canadian AME ministers to travel to conferences in the US. After abolition, the split became moot and Canadian congregations re-entered the AME Church, but as is so often the case the healing of the schism was partial, and a separate BME body also remains in existence.
The Toronto congregation moved to a new location uptown (right across the street from St Hilda's Anglican Church and retirement home) after its old building burned down in an arson tied to a double murder in a story that seems made for a TV movie.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
This looks like the place to mention the extremely white Rev Dr David Carr of the Order of St Leonard and pastor of Solihull Renewal Christian Centre, part of the Free Methodist Church of Great Britain but as far as I know, rabidly Pentecostal. (Richard Taylor, formerly of the Cwmbran "revival", came from that church).
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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SvitlanaV2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Don't forget that there are a lot of Jamaican Baptists who, at least in the past, have tended to be quite conservative, defining themselves as not Pentecostal.
Interestingly, though, I've heard it said that in Jamaica itself there are Baptist churches that are 'Pentecostal in all but name'.
I suspect that Jamaican Baptists in England who remained in the Baptist church did so because they wanted a less Pentecostal, more restrained flavour in their worship. The ones who expected more ebullience would simply have left and joined black-led Pentecostal churches, especially in a large city with a variety of churches to choose from.
ISTM that Baptist churches are often livelier these days than they used to be, so perhaps the inclination to leave for this reason has declined.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Not sure I've got anything new to add, save to reinforce the observation that robes/vestments and apparently 'Catholic' looking practices are more a feature of:
- African Indigenous Churches, some of which are quite syncretic and have fused the 'bling' of High Church Anglican and RC missionaries with elements of Pentecostalism and also, in some cases, traditional African animist practices.
- The same applies with certain Brazilian groups.
- Certain forms of Afro-American Pentecostalism.
So it's largely an ethnic thing.
That said, some independent white/working class Pentecostal groups - outwith the 'mainstream' of Elim, the Assemblies of God and the Apostolic Church, the three 'original' UK Pentecostal denominations - have gone in for titles like 'bishop' and for robes and vestments etc. I'm thinking of the somewhat notorious Peniel (Penuel?) Church over in Essex which got bad press a good few years back ...
There are also strong class divisions. Dr Andrew Walker, son of an Elim pastor in South Wales who is now Orthodox as well as being a 'Canon-Theologian' with the Church of England, always wrote that, 'a charismatic is a middle-class Pentecostal.'
I think that remains true.
The local AoG church here is noticeably more working-class than the other churches in our town - and the same was true where I grew up in South Wales.
It sounds awful, I know, but my brother and I used to amuse ourselves on Sunday evenings sometimes by 'spotting' or identifying which church or chapel people were going to as they walked past. There was no doubting the Penties. You could spot them a mile off. They'd always try to dress up a bit and generally wore loud check jackets and so on that clashed with whatever else they were wearing ... working class folk trying to cut a dash and falling far from the sartorial mark ...
These days, though, most Penties don't 'look' that different from everyone else ... other than some of the more ethnically defined groups where bling and dash is the order of the day.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
It seems that any shift within Pentecostal churches towards a more formal type of presentation or from Pentecostalism towards almost any other type of church symbolises upward mobility. So the Pentecostal preacher who begins to wear clerical garb, a Pentecostal layman who eventually joins the CofE, and another whose children become charismatics are all part of the same broader social process.
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