Ship of Fools: 2826: Christ Church Anglican, Columbus, Ohio, USA

Thread: 2826: Christ Church Anglican, Columbus, Ohio, USA Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I was intrigued by this report because it suggested that there was a mistake in the Creed referring to the Holy Spirit AND the Virgin Mary.

That's a standard part of the creed here in the UK.

I was also interested in the low numbers - a bit like the ordinariate here. People don't leave in droves over supposed liberalism.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

"I apologize for the late start" is not a great start!

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

I have read the report; the OP has some interesting points for consideration, but I am not at liberty to contribute, as things stand. It is presumably a matter for the MWer (not necessarily a shipmate) and/or the church authorities to answer for, if they see this thread.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Oh - and "was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary" is bog standard in my country ... but I'm an antipodean ....

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

The prayer book in question appears to be "An Anglican Prayer Book," prepared under the supervision of Peter Toon for one of the alphabet soup of overseas Anglican intervensions operating in the US. The description says it includes contemporary language forms of services in the 1662, 1928 (US), and 1962 prayer books - so something analogous to "An English Prayer Book" of the Church Society. Although it is not a turn of phrase found (AFAIK) in official prayer books in North America, leo appears to be right that the passage cited from the Creed is not a typo as the reviewer believed.

The report astutely notes that the "timing" of the EMC's formation seems a bit "off" - it's too late to be a reaction to women's ordination per se (although it is roughly contemporaneous with the consecration of +Barbara Harris) and too early for the New Hampshire controversies. From what I can tell, the EMC grew out of the Episcopal Synod of America, which sought to provide a "lifeboat" for "orthodox" Anglicans from within, as it were - a missionary bishopric critical of ECUSA but still part of it.

The tension apparently didn't hold, and the "lifeboat" part became its own church - the EMC, under Bishop Donald Davies, formerly of Fort Worth - while the ESA continued the "from within" part of the mandate as the North American franchise of Forward in Faith. More recently, however, history has come full circle, and FiFNA has joined the new ACNA as a missionary diocese, thus effectively realizing the ESA's original goal. What reason remains, apart from the passage of time, for the duplication of the EMC and the Missionary Diocese of All Saints, I couldn't tell you (and I am usually pretty good at keeping my Anglican sects straight!)

I do know that the EMC has a small Canadian offshoot, the "Christian Episcopal Church in Canada," which in turn has taken in a band of Caymanian Anglicans who reject the yoking of their islands to the Diocese of Jamaica and continue to bear the standard of the "Church of England in the Cayman Islands." One of their congregations has been MWed (erroneously labelled as straightforwardly "Church of England").

[ 12. March 2015, 16:28: Message edited by: Knopwood ]

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

Knopwood, your recollection of the origins of the EMC squares with my own, as I recall from being a loyal reader of The Christian Challenge in that era.

Since you it is being asserted that the phrase in the creed was not a typo, can someone fill me in on its significance? [Confused]

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Knopwood, your recollection of the origins of the EMC squares with my own, as I recall from being a loyal reader of The Christian Challenge in that era.

...aka The Challenged Christian. [Smile]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:

Since you it is being asserted that the phrase in the creed was not a typo, can someone fill me in on its significance?

That Mary is essential to credal, Trinitarian, incarnational Christianity.

I believe some Evangelicals in the C of E General Synod objected to it when proposed pre 2000. Isn't it a fair translation from the Greek?

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Oh - and "was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary" is bog standard in my country ... but I'm an antipodean ....

And in APBA this side of the Tasman as well. The AAPB, still in use in much of Sydney, puts it slightly differently: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. As Venbede says, Mary's involvement is essential. It is through her that Christ obtains His humanity.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

And that Mary is not solely passively.

Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :

A woodenly literal translation from Greek of the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 might read, "being enfleshed from Holy Spirit and Mary the Virgin, and being enhumanized..." The Nicene Creed of 351 reads "being enfleshened and being enhumanized."

I was all ready to refute this idea, being accustomed to "by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary." Sadly this turns out to have added a few extra concepts and verbs...

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

Perhaps there's enough DNA on the Shroud of Tourin and the Cincture of the Theotokos that tests could be done to see whose genes Jesus was actually carrying.

[Miss Amanda will get her wrap.]

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Perhaps there's enough DNA on the Shroud of Tourin and the Cincture of the Theotokos that tests could be done to see whose genes Jesus was actually carrying.

[Miss Amanda will get her wrap.]

Surely (without wishing to deny the Virgin Birth as traditionally understood) the modern equivalent of the evangelists' genealogies is that the DNA would reveal Joseph's genes ....

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Not if he was only the putative father !

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

Do you think they could get God's DNA from a communion wafer?

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
And that Mary is not solely passively.

And looking again at the AAPB, and then the later APBA, the former seems to assign a more passive role to Mary.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

No surprises there ... the effect of feminist insights was yet to be fully experienced in 1978.

Posted by Try (# 4951) on :

I was going to make this thread, but over a different issue entirely.
The Mystery Worshiper said

quote:
In a city the size of Columbus, I would seek an Anglo-Catholic parish.

He or she would quite possibly be disappointed! While the Diocese of Southern Ohio is not as utterly hostile to Anglo-Catholicism as the Diocese of Ohio, it's still not very common around here. Bishop Charles Pettit McIlvaine was probably the American bishop most hostile to the Oxford Movement. Furthermore, Columbus is very much second in importance to Cincinnati in the Diocese. Because of these two factors, there is only one parish in Columbus that considers itself anglo-Catholic. That is St. James in the Clintonville neighborhood. It is an affirming-Catholic parish that had two women as rectors in a row. So if the Mystery Worshiper chose a continuing Anglican church out of conviction rather than convenience he would NOT feel at home there. The closest AC parish with a male incumbent is an hour or more's drive to the east, in Zanesville. Actually, the neighborhood around OSU does not really have any good Anglican options, IMHO. There's the continuing church, which seems more or less dead from this MW report, and there's the OSU campus ministry, St. Stephan's. They practice communion without baptism, and they play fast and loose with the BCP. Both of those things are turn offs for me. If I was living on campus at OSU, my inclination would be to drive downtown to Trinity Church on Capitol Square, which has good worship in the cathedral tradition.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

Even the Diocese of Southern Ohio is historically on the low side of MOTR. When I was in college in the 80s, I augmented my income as a paid section leader for St Paul's in Oakwood. One of the guys in my section (who happened to be the rector's son) described them as "Lord God High Church". Didn't seem particularly high to me, but I suppose in the context of Episcopal worship in Dayton, Ohio, Holy Communion on alternate Sundays and the use of Eucharistic vestments on Christmas and Easter qualified.

Posted by Try (# 4951) on :

Weekly Communion is now the standard, and vestments are worn more often than not. But "dressing for dinner" is still the norm in some places, and no-one objects if the priest decides to omit the chasuble and celebrate the Eucharist in cassock-alb and stole. In fact it's very common to omit the chasuble from May to August. Incense is virtually unknown except at the late service on Christmas Eve and the Easter Vigil. About half of the churches in the Diocese use real bread rather than wafers. Substantial bread is used by the bishop at the Diocesan convention.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Try:
'Substantial' bread is used by the bishop at the Diocesan convention.

I assume that's not 'accidental'?

(I'll get my wrap.)

BTW -- speaking of things Ohian, what ever happened to St. James, Cleveland, long known as an AC beacon in the wilderness?

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Try:
Weekly Communion is now the standard, and vestments are worn more often than not. But "dressing for dinner" is still the norm in some places, and no-one objects if the priest decides to omit the chasuble and celebrate the Eucharist in cassock-alb and stole. In fact it's very common to omit the chasuble from May to August. Incense is virtually unknown except at the late service on Christmas Eve and the Easter Vigil. About half of the churches in the Diocese use real bread rather than wafers. Substantial bread is used by the bishop at the Diocesan convention.

That's still high church in many parts of the C of E.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
BTW -- speaking of things Ohian, what ever happened to St. James, Cleveland, long known as an AC beacon in the wilderness?

St James' Anglican Catholic Church? It still exists and was Mystery Worshipped ages ago. Was it once an Episcopal church? I know some of the more established continuing shacks were, like St Mark's in Portland OR which has also been MWed - not to mention St Mary of the Angels in Hollywood (and possibly SMV in Denver too?)

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