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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Magic of the sinner's prayer
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Green Mario
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# 18090
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Posted
So saying the sinner's prayer or some sort of prayer of commitment to God that acknowledges our sinfulness and need of Jesus seems to be taken by many evangelical organisations and evangelical Christians as the moment at which the Holy Spirit comes and indwells them and they become a Christian.
So is there any magic in saying such a prayer - or to use less pejorative terminology does something real and dramatic change in a person at this point or is this whole praxis misconceived?
Posts: 121 | Registered: Apr 2014
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I may have said it once or twice when I was a teenager. Does this mean that I'm an Evangelical?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
Well if "saying the prayer" is an expression of true repentance and faith then angels are partying...
Trouble is it can be an expression of so many other things.
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JJ
SDG
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Well, nature abhors a vacuum. When you've downgraded baptism from Sacrament to Ordinance and done away completely with confession, you still stand in need of a ritual to mark the moment of conversion.
Me, I just find it interesting that folks like Jack Chick, who view anything not specifically enjoined in Scripture as gewgaws of the Whore of Babylon, practically require the Sinner's Prayer as a prerequisite of membership in the church. Because I can't find the words of the damn thing anywhere in the Bible.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
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Posted
Le Roc - I don't think it makes you an Evangelical. The question I am wondering about is does it do something that makes you a Christian not as in at just a religious/community identity level but at a more fundamental level?
Twangist how deep and confident does faith need to be to be "true faith"? how sincere does repentance have to be to be "true repentance"?
Posts: 121 | Registered: Apr 2014
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Green Mario: Le Roc - I don't think it makes you an Evangelical.
Thank you. For a moment I was worried that I'd have to spend eternity in Heaven with the Evangelicals ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:
Green Mario: The question I am wondering about is does it do something that makes you a Christian not as in at just a religious/community identity level but at a more fundamental level?
To me personally, no it doesn't. I've explained this elswehere on the Ship, I've never been an Evangelical, but I've been involved with an Evangelical house group for some time when I was a teenager (next to my 'normal' church). This had to do with a certain brown-eyed girl who was a member of this group ... During these days I may have said this prayer, I don't remember very well.
I feel that what makes me a Christian are a number of experiences throughout my life and my reactions to them, not this.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
does it do something that makes you a Christian not as in at just a religious/community identity level but at a more fundamental level?
I would say, as many have done, "if you prayed that prayer and meant it", then yes.
But even then, it's only one point in a process. And I'm very suspicious of any incitement to get someone else to pray it at a specific time.
The inherent danger is the commoditisation of conversion.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Twangist how deep and confident does faith need to be to be "true faith"? how sincere does repentance have to be to be "true repentance"?
You would have to ask God as we don't have windows into mens souls... Jesus did say something about Faith the size of a mustard seed.
If you want to evaluate these things it's the long term fruit that counts, the Blessed Stott put it along the lines of "the proof of a persons conversion is their convertedness".
I'm really not a great fan of "the sinners prayer" but know many folk for whom life has radically changed when they responded to Christ in that way. Babies and bathwater and all that.
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JJ
SDG
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Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Well, nature abhors a vacuum. When you've downgraded baptism from Sacrament to Ordinance and done away completely with confession, you still stand in need of a ritual to mark the moment of conversion. ...
Fr Weber, I think even in the Primitive Church, people were expected to have made some sort of profession of faith or intention before they started the catechesis that was eventually to lead to their baptism.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Thank you. For a moment I was worried that I'd have to spend eternity in Heaven with the Evangelicals.
It's worse than that LeRoc. There'll be all sorts of people there, Catholics, Orthodox, Syrian Jacobites, Snake Handlers, Wee-Frees, even possibly one or two Theological Liberals. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
You might even find yourself sitting next to another Shipmate.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Enoch: It's worse than that LeRoc. There'll be all sorts of people there, Catholics, Orthodox, Syrian Jacobites, Snake Handlers, Wee-Frees, even possibly one or two Theological Liberals.
You might even find yourself sitting next to another Shipmate.
That's better already. But my version of Heaven also includes Muslims, Hindus, Wicca's, Candomblezeiros, Atheists (they'll be a bit cross when they arrive there, but they'll get over it) ... And I don't believe that God's version is more exclusive than mine.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I think even in the Primitive Church, people were expected to have made some sort of profession of faith or intention before they started the catechesis that was eventually to lead to their baptism.
Not quite, as far as I understand. Candidates had a sponsor who could vouch for their sincerity. The bishop would then instruct them in the faith.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Well, nature abhors a vacuum. When you've downgraded baptism from Sacrament to Ordinance and done away completely with confession, you still stand in need of a ritual to mark the moment of conversion.
Me, I just find it interesting that folks like Jack Chick, who view anything not specifically enjoined in Scripture as gewgaws of the Whore of Babylon, practically require the Sinner's Prayer as a prerequisite of membership in the church. Because I can't find the words of the damn thing anywhere in the Bible.
While "Sinner's Prayer" might be a good name for a rock band, I can't find it in the bible, either. It seems that Peter said on Pentecost (Acts 2) that in baptism we find forgiveness of sin and we receive the gift of the holy spirit, the fruit of which is described in Galatians 5.
I will give Jack Chick something, though. He does know how to draw a grisly picture of folks being tossed into the gaping maw of hell by their heavenly father in order to suffer the conscious and unending torments of damnation throughout all eternity.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
...Snake Handlers...
For a second I read that as 'left handers'
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[edited by a qualified code handler]
[ 24. October 2014, 21:31: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I think even in the Primitive Church, people were expected to have made some sort of profession of faith or intention before they started the catechesis that was eventually to lead to their baptism.
Not quite, as far as I understand. Candidates had a sponsor who could vouch for their sincerity. The bishop would then instruct them in the faith.
You don't see any lengthy prior chatechesis or godparents in Acts2
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JJ
SDG
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Well, nature abhors a vacuum. When you've downgraded baptism from Sacrament to Ordinance and done away completely with confession, you still stand in need of a ritual to mark the moment of conversion.
Me, I just find it interesting that folks like Jack Chick, who view anything not specifically enjoined in Scripture as gewgaws of the Whore of Babylon, practically require the Sinner's Prayer as a prerequisite of membership in the church. Because I can't find the words of the damn thing anywhere in the Bible.
While "Sinner's Prayer" might be a good name for a rock band, I can't find it in the bible, either. It seems that Peter said on Pentecost (Acts 2) that in baptism we find forgiveness of sin and we receive the gift of the holy spirit, the fruit of which is described in Galatians 5.
Peter actually says to repent and be baptized, which arguably, is what the Sinner's Prayer is going for. For that reason, I don't have any problem w/ the Sinner's Prayer per se (which should surprise no one since I'm an evangelical). My only problem would be the rigidity with which it's come to be used among some of my evangelical brethren. Some version of the Sinner's Prayer as a genuine, uncoerced act of contrition is one-- but not "the"-- quite valid and appropriate response to the grace of God. The Sinner's Prayer as a rigid formula that must be followed word for word upon threat of hell, not so much-- as well as any suggestion that this is the only valid way one enters into the Kingdom.
[ 24. October 2014, 21:49: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Peter actually says to repent and be baptized, which arguably, is what the Sinner's Prayer is going for. For that reason, I don't have any problem w/ the Sinner's Prayer per se (which should surprise no one since I'm an evangelical). My only problem would be the rigidity with which it's come to be used among some of my evangelical brethren. Some version of the Sinner's Prayer as a genuine, uncoerced act of contrition is one-- but not "the"-- quite valid and appropriate response to the grace of God. The Sinner's Prayer as a rigid formula that must be followed word for word upon threat of hell, not so much-- as well as any suggestion that this is the only valid way one enters into the Kingdom.
Peter said repent and be baptised, but I cannot find the bit where he says 'accept Jesus.' If anything the Bible says the opposite, that God does the accepting of those who come to him.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The very name of the prayer is problematic: "sinner". I realize the mark of sin is apparently inherited because of illicit fruit consumption*, but the last thing we need to emphasize with most people is that they are bad, and then scare them with hell. Better would be a Love Prayer that focuses less on the person's failings and keeps the positive. Being an unconverted Christian myself.
*illicit fruit consumption: it must have been a cherry, because the subsequent religious excessive preoccupation with sex, particularly of those who are pledged not to have any.
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
As with so much, "it depends". There's no inherent magic, but it can be a valuable and useful marker for the person saying it. It's a moment in time when a little mini-ritual says "I believe (help me with my unbelief)". Outward signs/inward grace, anyone?
However, making it a condition, or a must-have, or a Thing For All is bonkers and missing the point. And I absolutely wouldn't say it's about the moment when the Spirit comes. Not least because I generally hold with the view that it's the work of the Spirit that convicts/leads to repentance/belief.
And as others have said, it's possibly a waypoint on the journey, not the finishing line.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Peter actually says to repent and be baptized, which arguably, is what the Sinner's Prayer is going for.
Yes to what Peter said. However, I've never seen folks saying the Sinner's Prayer then being baptized until days, weeks or months later, if at all.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
Make that I've seen Sinner's Prayer reciters NOT being baptized until days, weeks or months later, if at all.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Peter said repent and be baptised, but I cannot find the bit where he says 'accept Jesus.' If anything the Bible says the opposite, that God does the accepting of those who come to him.
Since Peter's sermon on Pentecost could be summarised as "You rejected Jesus, but God has raised him up as Messiah", I'd suggest repentance, at least in that case, would mean "accept Jesus". And I'd suggest that at least part of Peter's point is that by rejecting Jesus, the people weren't coming to God - because Jesus was the One God had sent to them to bring them back to Him - but actually turning away from Him.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Like a lot of things it depends what your angle is.
What Peter said is in line with what Jesus said earlier, "He who comes to me I will never cast out.
We do the coming, we do the turning, we do the repenting, but it is Jesus who does the accepting.
I never did swallow the Arminian line.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Like a lot of things it depends what your angle is.
What Peter said is in line with what Jesus said earlier, "He who comes to me I will never cast out.
We do the coming, we do the turning, we do the repenting, but it is Jesus who does the accepting.
I never did swallow the Arminian line.
Yes, I'd agree with that (except maybe the Arminian bit, but I can never work out where I stand on the whole Arminian-Calvinist thing...). I think Peter's point on Pentecost is that now is the time for the people to do the coming, turning and repenting and that Jesus will then do the accepting.
I think the sinner's prayer is one way of doing the coming, turning and repenting and I'd probably agree that talk of "accepting Jesus" isn't necessarily helpful - though could it be being used as a catch-all term for the coming, turning, repenting you mention? For me, it was the starting point of my Christian journey: at the time (I was 9) I thought it was "the thing you do to become a Christian", now I see it as just the first step on my journey on which there have been many, perhaps equally important, steps.
And, as if to prove Mere Nick's point, I wasn't baptised until I was 16... that's one of the tragedies of the emphasis on the sinner's prayer to me, that it's meant some traditions (perhaps including us Baptists?) have sort of relegated baptism and let go of its significance as the means of entering the church.
[ 25. October 2014, 06:29: Message edited by: Stejjie ]
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
Popularised by Billy Graham in his heyday was it not? Others may know better.
It is often prayed in hope perhaps that someone may use the words to put a tangible verbal tag onto an internal transformation.
Jesus said though, that the mission of the apostolic group was to make disciples. This prayer cannot in any way effect conversion or inner change but it might well reflect and confirm such transformation of heart that has already taken place. It may be the beginning of a disciple's journey.
In my experience life change after conversion is the indicator as to whether true repentance has occurred. Jesus does not come into a life uninvited, but repentance as evidenced in key lifestyle decisions needs to occur.
To wit you have to turn from known sin and The Holy Spirit is usually awfully specific as to what he requires but an element of the supernatural is always present to make a turning away from sin possible. If there is no response to such conviction, no change of any significance occurs and despite the prayer, that life is not given to Jesus.
When I stumbled into faith 40 years ago, I was amazed that overnight I stopped blaspheming. Some time later I supernaturally ie without effort or withdrawal stopped cigarette smoking and lastly I had to decide to move out of a sexual liaison. The last involved a decision that I look back on as reflecting an inner change. It was evidence something fundamental had happened. It also seemed a requirement at the time, the beginning of a journey. I say this only to clarify that salvation was not about doing any of those things, it was precedent to them, but those things were evidence of it to me and others. I have prayed the sinners prayer but in itself it was no magic spell.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Popularised by Billy Graham in his heyday was it not? Others may know better.
It is often prayed in hope perhaps that someone may use the words to put a tangible verbal tag onto an internal transformation.
Jesus said though, that the mission of the apostolic group was to make disciples.
The problem with this way of looking at, indeed using, the prayer is that it is a kind of scattergun "throw it out and see what sticks" approach. I can imagine the evangelist saying "well if just one of those who prayed the prayer is saved it will have been worth it".
That does not help others who may have "gone forward" rather confusedly and who sink into disillusionment - and thus possibly further away from God - when it doesn't work. It indicates more respect for the "magic formula" than for the people you are engaging with.
I knew a lady whose summary of a Billy Graham meeting was "there was a bit near the end where you could get closer to him".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The very name of the prayer is problematic: "sinner". I realize the mark of sin is apparently inherited because of illicit fruit consumption*, but the last thing we need to emphasize with most people is that they are bad, and then scare them with hell. Better would be a Love Prayer that focuses less on the person's failings and keeps the positive. Being an unconverted Christian myself. ...
I really don't agree with you there. An awareness of one's own personal sin is necessary grit in one's oyster to have any prospect of either finding the pearl of great price or oneself becoming a spiritual pearl.
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" etc.
I would go so far as to say that there is very little hope for the person who thinks sinners are only other people who have done really bad things. That is what the pharisee was doing when he saw the publican praying in some back corner of the Temple. Existential complacency keeps a lot of people from even looking for, yet alone finding the kingdom of heaven.
These are the words put to the candidates in the current form of baptism we have here. If the candidates are old enough to answer for themselves, they reply. If the candidate is a baby, the parents and godparents answer for them.
quote:
Do you reject the devil and all rebellion against God?
I reject them.
Do you renounce the deceit and corruption of evil?
I renounce them.
Do you repent of the sins that separate us from God and neighbour?
I repent of them
Do you turn to Christ as Saviour?
I turn to Christ.
Do you submit to Christ as Lord?
I submit to Christ.
Do you come to Christ, the way, the truth and the life?
I come to Christ.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
<snip>So is there any magic in saying such a prayer - or to use less pejorative terminology does something real and dramatic change in a person at this point or is this whole praxis misconceived?
If a person has journeyed to the point which the prayer is intended to reflect, then the provision of some words that they might use (given that the act of praying may be very unfamiliar) may help them at a milestone moment. It may give them a vocabulary for a personal commitment in response to God's call.
(In the same way, perhaps, being issued with a driving licence demonstrates that I have learned to drive, it is not a magic means of enabling me to drive.)
What happens though is that "praying the sinner's prayer" becomes a metonymy for the whole process. It is a usage which can easily be confusing and misleading.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
It's quite a modern invention.
1741 saw the invention of a 'mourner's seat'.
Charles Finney made it popular.
It goes viral with Billy Graham.
Baptism is the biblical way - though I think there is a need for the individual to 'own' their baptism in some way - in words, yes, but more importantly how they live their life so as to die daily to sin.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
'A' sinner's prayer (rather than a prescribed formula, surely has been used right through the era of grace, has it not?
'Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved' is the Gospel message, to which the response, surely is a prayer of putting one's faith in Christ, repenting for sin and accepting and confessing Jesus as Lord.
I really do not see the problem with that.
Once it becomes a magic prayer - and I see no evidence that this is what happens - then it degenerates into something like a penance where the confessing person is told, 'say 3 Our Fathers and 5 Hail Marys'.
The "sinners' prayer" is simply a reflection of the moment when a person consciously confesses faith in Christ - whatever words are used.
What's your problem?
Unless of course you come from a tradition that tells you that the water of baptismal font, the intoning prayer of a priest and lifetime of meritorious good works (and are they actually good enough?), are required to persuade God to let you in.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
The Bible does not speak with a single voice on this (it'd be surprising if it did seeing as it speaks with a single voice on precious little) - elsewhere the "gospel message" is "repent and be baptised." Probably "Believe and be baptised" somewhere as well.
If we're dealing with a God who's into salvation, rather than condemnation, then why would he be tied down to a single formula? I suggest that any such narrowing comes from us, not him. There may be any number of "regular" ways to God, who knows how many irregular ones, and it's not our job to be dictating what those ways can and cannot be.
[ 25. October 2014, 14:26: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I know Mudfrog is using hyperbole - and making a point, not being prescriptive - but on one level he runs the risk of taking as caricatured a view of paedobaptist and sacramental approaches as some take of those who employ 'the sinner's prayer' ...
I can see the point he's making, but, of course, neither are a kind of talisman or magic-formula.
I wonder how these things would sound if, as in Twangist's example of people whose lives were changed after 'praying the sinner's prayer', we were to substitute some over form of instruction or action?
People are offered the opportunity to 'pray the sinner's prayer' because it's easy, memorable and easily transportable - as it were. It's a lot simpler than directing people to a course of catechesis followed by baptism - which was the NT and early Church norm it would seem ...
I suspect those same people that Twangist has in mind would still be changed, still have 'stayed the course' had they been directed through a process of instruction and baptised as part of that.
That isn't to say anything about the 'validity' or otherwise of the experiences of those like Salvationists who don't go in for watery baptism in the sacramental or even the 'ordinance' sense.
Without trying to 'commodify' things - which is where, I think, the danger lies, as Eutychus observes ... I think there is something in having some kind of 'physical' action to reinforce or 'enact' some kind of change.
That's why so many 'service industries' have some kind of 'physical evidence' that the service has been delivered - be it a certificate, a medallion or whatever else it might be.
We are creaturely creatures, after all, and we live in three-dimensions and in a multi-sensory universe.
Of course, God can't be shut in a box and can work in, through, with and without these things ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What's your problem?
Unless of course you come from a tradition that tells you that the water of baptismal font, the intoning prayer of a priest and lifetime of meritorious good works (and are they actually good enough?), are required to persuade God to let you in.
Now which Christian tradition would that be, Mudfrog?
A real one or one of your own imagining?
Strictly speaking, of course, there is no Christian tradition - no not one - which teaches that we are saved by our own works.
I know what you're getting at and can see how you got there. But, properly understood, I don't think any of the more sacramental traditions teach these things in the way you have portrayed them here.
All Christian traditions teach that it is God that saves.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Now which Christian tradition would that be, Mudfrog?
A real one or one of your own imagining?
Strictly speaking, of course, there is no Christian tradition - no not one - which teaches that we are saved by our own works.
I know what you're getting at and can see how you got there. But, properly understood, I don't think any of the more sacramental traditions teach these things in the way you have portrayed them here.
All Christian traditions teach that it is God that saves.
As so often Gamaliel, that gets a ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
You don't see any lengthy prior chatechesis or godparents in Acts2
So how many people have you seen wandering around with what appear to be 'tongues of fire' above their heads recently, Twangist?
Or how many have you heard speaking languages they've not actually learned yet which are fully comprehensible to speakers of those languages?
(Rather than the usual 'sellhimahonda, aveabacardi, untiemybowtie ... shallalalalala angarabara sundera hundera' schtick that so often passes for 'tongues' these days?)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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fullgospel
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# 18233
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Posted
Don't forget our Lady
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on the one hand - self doubt
on the other, the universe that looks through your eyes - your eyes
Posts: 364 | From: Rubovia | Registered: Sep 2014
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Twangist
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# 16208
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Posted
quote:
People are offered the opportunity to 'pray the sinner's prayer' because it's easy, memorable and easily transportable - as it were. It's a lot simpler than directing people to a course of catechesis followed by baptism - which was the NT and early Church norm it would seem ...
I suspect those same people that Twangist has in mind would still be changed, still have 'stayed the course' had they been directed through a process of instruction and baptised as part of that.
I rather suppose that for many folk saying the magic prayer was step one (or at least a significant step) in a process that involves instruction and hopefully baptism and continues untill they get to glory. Not either/or but both/and.
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JJ
SDG
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Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
You don't see any lengthy prior chatechesis or godparents in Acts2
So how many people have you seen wandering around with what appear to be 'tongues of fire' above their heads recently, Twangist?
Or how many have you heard speaking languages they've not actually learned yet which are fully comprehensible to speakers of those languages?
(Rather than the usual 'sellhimahonda, aveabacardi, untiemybowtie ... shallalalalala angarabara sundera hundera' schtick that so often passes for 'tongues' these days?)
Just trying to work out which primative church we're meant to be copying I don't see the way forward as being going back to the days of last minute deathbed baptisms for example.
In Acts people seem to get into the water pretty quick after repenting and believing and learn more after (unusual events not withstanding).
Personally, I find it ironic that there is a very clear non-liturgical liturgy of conversion.
The SP can help some people express what God is doing in them as they begin their journey of faith. It can also be legalistic and deeply unhelpful.
I would rather people pray in thier own words after they understand what it is to repent and believe and then go on to publicly express their new discipleship by getting baptised as soon as is convenient/possible, growing as a Christian by being part of a local church. I don't imagine that is a particularly radical or controversial POV.
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JJ
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Who said anything about 'copying'?
I agree with you, Twangist, that the sinner's prayer can be a helpful 'way in' for many people.
It's not the only way, of course, nor is it even particularly the 'Biblical' way - whatever the biblical way actually is.
'The wind bloweth where it listeth ...'
So, now, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating any one, single, 'set' way for people to enter into the Christian faith and begin to indwell it/work it out.
At it's best, the sinner's prayer can be a sort of short-hand ... but it's a recent innovation as far as Christian practice goes.
You don't see its equivalent back in the early Church, nor do you see it at the time of the Reformation - heck, you don't even see it at the time of the 18th century Evangelical Awakenings and revivals.
It's a development from post-Finney US revivalism that has become standardised and embedded in contemporary evangelical practice.
It's no more nor less than that.
Plenty of great Saints and great saints (small s) managed perfectly well without it ...
Using Acts as some kind of template doesn't get us very far in and of itself - largely because that's not what it's for and partly because we often overlook the literary aspects.
The challenge for anyone who claims that Acts is 'normative' is to produce evidence that these apparently normative things are happening in their experience and in their church ...
I'm still waiting for someone to demonstrate that.
Of course, there are lessons and parallels and things we can deduce and derive from a study of Acts.
But to go round claiming that our respective churches are somehow fully operating in that kind of dimension is stretching it a bit ...
People come to Christ in all manner of ways.
Whether it's in an evangelical setting or a more sacramentalist one, in my experience they tend to do so because they are 'socialised' into it - they start knocking around with Christians and sooner or later 'own' the faith in some way for themselves.
How that's done and the form it takes varies from tradition to tradition - it's expressed differently and with different vocabulary but to all intents and purposes it's the same thing.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What's your problem?
Unless of course you come from a tradition that tells you that the water of baptismal font, the intoning prayer of a priest and lifetime of meritorious good works (and are they actually good enough?), are required to persuade God to let you in.
Now which Christian tradition would that be, Mudfrog?
A real one or one of your own imagining?
As you so rightly say, hyperbole was being used in order tomake a p[oint.
Simply put, the point is praying the sinner's prayer can indeed be mocked after being caricaturised in exactly the same way as penance can be mocked after similarly being caricaturised.
Everyone has a 'formula' - whether it's infant baptism followed by sacramental union with Christ or whether it's a decisive conversion experience during which a model prayer is used.
What I do not think anyone should be doing - but unfortunately being the Ship we get a lot of it - is lampooining evangelicalism again!
I wish all of us could stop assuming that our way is the oldest/most correct/best/spiritual/traditional/Spirit-led way and that therefore everyone else is wrong.
It is God who saves by grace through faith in Christ.
If you can testify to that then I don't give a monkeys as to how that grace came to you.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I count the moment I said a quasi sinner's prayer (I don't remember the exact words but it was something that hit the three points of, I fucked up, I'm sorry, save me) as the moment I became a Christian. I remember it quite well. I went on to be baptized (about 9 months later) and to be chrismated into the Orthodox Church (nearly 2 decades later), but that is the moment I count as my becoming a Christian.
I guess I'm a bad sacramentalist, aren't I?
[ 26. October 2014, 00:23: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I really don't agree with you there. An awareness of one's own personal sin is necessary grit in one's oyster to have any prospect of either finding the pearl of great price or oneself becoming a spiritual pearl.
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" etc.
I would go so far as to say that there is very little hope for the person who thinks sinners are only other people who have done really bad things. That is what the pharisee was doing when he saw the publican praying in some back corner of the Temple. Existential complacency keeps a lot of people from even looking for, yet alone finding the kingdom of heaven.
Maybe it depends where you are, where you've been and what is happening in your life. Those who are truly hurting need not to understand anything about being a sinner nor that they were damned before they were born in the eyes of those who accept original sin as a doctrine. I think it tantamount to blaming the suffering to point out that they are sinful.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I guess I'm a bad sacramentalist, aren't I?
Our (Orthodox) parish priest likes to say, "We've very clearly defined where Grace is: we've not so clearly defined where it is not."
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I count the moment I said a quasi sinner's prayer (I don't remember the exact words but it was something that hit the three points of, I fucked up, I'm sorry, save me) as the moment I became a Christian. I remember it quite well. I went on to be baptized (about 9 months later) and to be chrismated into the Orthodox Church (nearly 2 decades later), but that is the moment I count as my becoming a Christian.
I guess I'm a bad sacramentalist, aren't I?
I have a fairly similar experience (without the Orthodox Church and with a longer gap between conversion and baptism) so I guess I'll join you on the bad sacramentalist bench.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
You don't see any lengthy prior chatechesis or godparents in Acts2
So how many people have you seen wandering around with what appear to be 'tongues of fire' above their heads recently, Twangist?
Or how many have you heard speaking languages they've not actually learned yet which are fully comprehensible to speakers of those languages?
(Rather than the usual 'sellhimahonda, aveabacardi, untiemybowtie ... shallalalalala angarabara sundera hundera' schtick that so often passes for 'tongues' these days?)
Just trying to work out which primative church we're meant to be copying I don't see the way forward as being going back to the days of last minute deathbed baptisms for example.
In Acts people seem to get into the water pretty quick after repenting and believing and learn more after (unusual events not withstanding).
That probably has to do with the fact that in those first years the majority of 'converts' were in fact good, pious, sincere Jews whose only change in mindset was to accept Jesus as the Messiah and his death on the cross as their atoning sacrifice, conformed by the resurrection.
Foe these people, therefore, what we call 'baptism' with all its Christian accretions over the centuries was actually an 'immersion' (which is what the word baptism is) and was simply a Jewish ritual cleansing bath in the one of the many mikvehs that towns and cities had. On the Day of Pentecost, for example, when 3000 blokes decided that Jesus of Nazareth was actually the Messiah and they needed to repent of their rejection of him and be 'immersed' for their sins, where does one think they did it? The temple had many ritual washing baths and it's more than likely they went up to the temple and went through the 'normal' Jewish ritual washing that they had performed dozens of times in their lives and would continue to do as good Jews - albeit Jews who now worshipped Jesus as their Messiah.
On that point I would add that up until that point, part of the prayers used as they immersed themselves was the Shema - 'Hear O Israel, the Lord is One...'
Jesus had instructed the disciples to change the formula used:
He quite clearly said to the Twelve (not using the Greek word 'baptizo'), 'Go and make disciples of all nations, immersing them (i.e. ritually washing them in a mikveh) in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
The 'baptisms' in the Acts were not Christian initiation ceremonies or sacraments, they were simple, authentic Jewish rituals that now had the Messiah as their focus.
The passover had already been adapted and the disciples continued the daily office in the temple, they met together in their homes to break bread - another Jewish custom - and I see no reason, no evidence and no justification to suggest that on the Day of Pentecost the first followers of 'The Way' suddenly became western medieval Christians having left the Jewish faith to start a new religion with entirely different and novel practices such as a Catholic Mass and baptisms.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
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Posted
Mudfrog - my understanding was that baptism pre John the Baptist was more linked to a rite that gentiles had to follow to become 2nd class (for want of a better phrase) Jews, and it was a one off conversion rite. The background you provide is really interesting though. Would very early Christians then have viewed baptism as a one off unique event for each individual or something that should be be repeated.
Posts: 121 | Registered: Apr 2014
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
Mudfrog - my understanding was that baptism pre John the Baptist was more linked to a rite that gentiles had to follow to become 2nd class (for want of a better phrase) Jews, and it was a one off conversion rite. The background you provide is really interesting though. Would very early Christians then have viewed baptism as a one off unique event for each individual or something that should be be repeated.
As I said, the first 'Christians' were Jews. There was no new rite, it was all Judaism with a 'realised' Messiah. The baptism practiced by the Apostles was a simple and oft-repeated Mikveh. It was not a once and for all Christian sacrament.
John's baptism for repentence was simply an OT ritual washing in the name of the One Lord. The Apostles' bap[tism, post Pentecost was the same mikveh but in the name of Jesus and the Father and Spirit. Hence the experience of Paul when he came across disciples who had only heard of John's baptism.
[ 27. October 2014, 11:42: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
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Posted
I will have to check the NT references as they have always read to me like a one off initiaton event for each individual rather than a repeatable rite. How does this view of water baptism affect your view of what being baptised in the holy spirit means?
Posts: 121 | Registered: Apr 2014
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I think you should read those verses in the context of AD40-style Messianic Judaism, and ask 'what does this teaching mean / sound like to a first century Jew?
Baptism in the Spirit is initial and repeatable.
We are 'baptised by the one Spirit into the one body' but Paul also tells us to 'be filled with the Spirit' and uses a phrase that means 'keep on being filled...'
Pentecost as a personal experience of grace is also repeatable as we see in Acts 4 v 31
[ 27. October 2014, 12:04: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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