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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Compulsory religions education - training atheists?
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
I was reading this rather scathing review of Richard Dawkins' autobiography - not the subject of this post but certainly worth a read - and came across this comment:
quote:
. In turning away from the milk-and-water Anglicanism in which he had been reared—after his conversion from theism, he “refused to kneel in chapel,” he writes proudly—he was doing what tens of thousands of Britain’s young people did at the time. Compulsory religious instruction of the kind that exists in British schools, it has often been observed, creates a fertile environment for atheism. Dawkins’s career illustrates the soundness of this truism. If there is anything remarkable in his adolescent rebellion, it is that he has remained stuck in it.
In my own country (United States) there is no religious education in the public (i.e. state) education sector. All religiously-affiliated schools are private and religious education is not compulsory in any manner. And yet religious adherence is far higher than in the UK, where church schools receive public funding.
Is there a reasonable case to be made that rejection of religion in such a system is partly a typical adolescent rejection of parental (or in loco parentis, in the case of a school) authority - that people don't ever grow out of?
Might the church have a better future in the UK if it reduced its involvement in the education sector?
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Lord Jestocost
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# 12909
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Posted
Dawkins would have gone to the kind of school I did, with compulsory worship several times a week and not the slightest attempt by the church actually to engage the minds of wavering worshippers.
Our chaplain made a valiant effort - truly a voice crying in the wilderness - but he had the inert behemoth of the establishment pushing back against him. Things were done because they were done and that was all there was to it.
I found that if you were already inclined towards religion, and therefore more inclined to enter the chaplain's orbit, then the system worked - after a fashion - and enabled you to articulate and understand what you believed. But those who were not already so inclined just got driven away, and stayed there.
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I was at a public school, and there was a group of already committed Christians, and the school religion machine worked for them, but for a ton of other kids, it was sheer alienation, dreary hymns and incomprehensible verbiage. Well, I remember in RE, we used to talk about nuclear disarmament, so that was OK. But apart from that, nobody tried to actually engage us; it was de haut en bas, (from on high).
[ 31. October 2014, 08:54: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Might I say that RE and worship of the kind mentioned by Dawkins - which I do agree has "turned off" countless children from faith over the years - is a particular Public School (UK usage) construct.
While "worship" in schools is still contentious (but can sometimes be good), I think that RE in State Schools is often good and largely concerns itself with teaching about religions and other cultures; it may well veer into questions of morality, religious phenomena and epistemology higher up the school if good RE teachers are in place. This however cannot be guaranteed as the subject has been marginalised by the current emphasis on passing exams in the "core" subjects such as English etc.
Personally I would excise Worship from the School Day (although not ban it if pupils and staff wished to have it, e.g. at lunchtime); I would also look to excellence in teaching RE as it has several useful functions. e.g. it helps to inform students about the world and help banish stereotypes of religious communities; it shows students that there is more to humanity than just our physical existence and helps them think through deep issues; it shows how religion has hugely shaped our culture, art and history which cannot be properly understood otherwise ...
BTW many older Christians still believe that the schools should "teach Christianity" in detail and are surprised that they do not. But that is the churches' job to do ... for too long they've had it too easy.
[ 31. October 2014, 09:31: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Heavenly Anarchist
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# 13313
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Posted
As pointed out, RE in UK state schools is about religions, culture and beliefs and the church has no input into it. It is one of my eldest's favourite subjects, not just because it is interesting but because they also discuss philosophy and the formation of ideology. His secondary school does not have religious assemblies, though primary sometimes does, our vicar is involved in one weekly assembly. But other religions are also covered in assembly, one of my sons was involved in a play of the Ramayana.
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
In my own country (United States) there is no religious education in the public (i.e. state) education sector. All religiously-affiliated schools are private and religious education is not compulsory in any manner. And yet religious adherence is far higher than in the UK, where church schools receive public funding.
You can't compare religion in the UK and the USA. They are like apples and oranges.
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Is there a reasonable case to be made that rejection of religion in such a system is partly a typical adolescent rejection of parental (or in loco parentis, in the case of a school) authority - that people don't ever grow out of?
Couldn't the same case be made for math or english or whatever other subject kids don't like?
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Might the church have a better future in the UK if it reduced its involvement in the education sector?
No I don't think so.
Some religious education is better than none at all.
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a theological scrapbook
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
Evensong - the premise in the OP was made by John Gray, a professor of philosophy at the London School of Economics. I won't speak for you but he's certainly more clever than I am. Surely it deserves a bit more of a response than "no, I don't think so" ?
Why isn't it the same with math or English, as you point out? That's the question I'm interested in discussing.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Isn't it that maths and English are seen as useful qualifications for later in life? At my school, most of us saw religion (as it was taught there), as something dreary and useless. I think it could be taught in a brilliant way, and I regret never having experienced that.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Evensong - the premise in the OP was made by John Gray, a professor of philosophy at the London School of Economics. I won't speak for you but he's certainly more clever than I am. Surely it deserves a bit more of a response than "no, I don't think so" ?
Isn't he an atheist?
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a theological scrapbook
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You can't compare religion in the UK and the USA. They are like apples and oranges.
Picking up on this bit - I would say the difference between religion in the US and UK is that in the US, religion was from the start non-conformist and anti-establishment. People didn't want the government involved in religion because many of the early Americans belonged to sects that were persecuted by the states that they left.
In Europe in general and the UK in particular, religion is the establishment and is tied up with things like monarchy, and social control and authority.
Teenagers tend to reject authority as part of their adolescent development. So I can imagine that religion as being taught by school is near the top of the list of things to rebel against.
In the US on the other hand, asserting one's religious faith in public school can be a rebellious act. In my state, on-campus Bible studies were not allowed at public schools. At youth group as a teen we'd be asked to pray for groups of students who "bravely" ignored the rules and faced disciplinary action. Compare that to the UK where our parish church is sponsoring Alpha in a local school.
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Heavenly Anarchist
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# 13313
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Posted
But RE in the UK is not about Christianity, it is about religion, philosophy and ideology and has no church input, state or otherwise. There is nothing in state school RE to rebel against. Presumably this Alpha group is extra-curricula?
Are children in the US not taught about other religions either? If so, does this lack of knowledge affect how they view other religions and cultures?
[ 31. October 2014, 11:24: Message edited by: Heavenly Anarchist ]
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Heavenly Anarchist
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# 13313
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Posted
I've just asked my 13 year old. He's in his third year at secondary school and says they haven't had any teaching about Christianity in all the time he has been there, they had one piece of work about ecumenicalism, which was about churches working with other religions, ie mosques, sharing a space. I'd have thought the issue was more lack of Christianity in RE lessons (I actually don't mind this for my son, he gets enough Christianity in Sunday School).
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
Presumably this Alpha group is extra-curricula?
Yes but hosted in the school and being heavily promoted to all of the children. This is not allowed in US public schools.
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
Are children in the US not taught about other religions either? If so, does this lack of knowledge affect how they view other religions and cultures?
I went to a private school, and we had two modules on religion: one in world history class covering Judaism/Christianity/Islam/Buddhism/Hinduism, and one in American Literature that focused on American religious sects like Mormons, SDA, etc. Both were approached from the perspective of the subject - so history was just that, no discussion of the philosophies behind the religion beyond the basic facts. The American literature class was focused on how religious revival and the explosion of Protestant groups in the US influenced culture. And this was a school founded by a man who we were all taught required the early students to memorize Prov 9:10.
In public school, at least in my state, religious education is not part of the curriculum.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Usual RE in a UK secondary school would look at things like the different religious beliefs in marriage and sex or not before marriage, the ethics of euthanasia or abortion, the rights and wrongs of animal rights, fair trade or capital punishment. There will also be some study of different religions and what they believe, usually Christianity, Islam and Judaism, but if there are local groups following a different religion, that will also be discussed. That would be broad - festivals, sacred books, places of worship and religious rituals and why.
Bog standard secondary schools tend to visit church rarely - maybe a Christmas service, maybe a Founder's Day service if it's a CofE secondary. There may also be a church visit to study the building (along with a mosque and synagogue).
Local VA secondary school to here does a year 8 day looking at different things that a Christian would say was part of them, very ecumenical again, and a year 9 fair trade week that are specifically Christian. It used to offer the Youth Alpha about being Christian in year 7 delivered by volunteers from the local churches, but that has been taken over by the school now they have a specialist RE teacher (and I suspect quietly dropped).
The daily act of worship is noted more in breach than in observance - and tends to be ecumenical when it occurs.
* VA voluntary aided - that's a form of church school.
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Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Net Spinster
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# 16058
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Posted
One should distinguish between education about a religion (or religions) and instruction in a religion for the purpose of conversion to or reinforcement in (e.g., catechism) and acts of collective public worship. The latter two are forbidden to be teacher done in US government schools; the first is usually required in the appropriate places. For instance the California standards for K-12 education for 2005
quote:
This framework acknowledges the importance of religion in human history. When studying world history, students must become familiar with the basic ideas of the major religions and the ethical traditions of each time and place.
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Understand the importance of religion, philosophy, and other major belief systems in history. To understand why individuals and groups acted as they did, we must see what values and assumptions they held, what they honored, what they sought, and what they feared. By studying a people’s religion and philosophy as well as their folkways and traditions, we gain an understanding of their ethical and moral commitments. By reading the texts that people revere, we gain important insights into their thinking. The study of religious beliefs and other ideological commitments helps explain both cultural continuity and cultural conflict.
Students as students, however, can self-instruct or instruct their peers through student run school clubs (assuming the school permits student extra-curricular clubs) or lunchtime discussion. Students can pray as long as it doesn't violate neutral school rules on disruption (e.g., silent prayer at any time, vocal prayer if students as students are allowed to talking to each other).
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spinner of webs
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I have taught, and then advised on, RE for 40 years.
Re- there being no church input, that's not quite true. Each local authority has to have Standing Advisory Council on RE and an Agreed Syllabus Conference.
Both have 4 committees - one of which is the C of E and one is the 'other denominations' (nowadays stretched to include other faiths).
As for the person who said their child had no Christianity - that is breaking the law. Christianity has to make up at least 51% of a syllabus.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
One should distinguish between education about a religion (or religions) and instruction in a religion for the purpose of conversion to or reinforcement in (e.g., catechism) and acts of collective public worship. The latter two are forbidden to be teacher done in US government schools; the first is usually required in the appropriate places.
Teaching religion in a history or social science class, in my mind, differs significantly from having religious education as a standalone subject, which is the case in England.
English national curriculum
quote:
Schools have to teach RE but parents can withdraw their children for all or part of the lessons. Pupils can choose to withdraw themselves once they’re 18.
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Some religious education is better than none at all.
Er, you mean education about religion, not indoctrination of kids who aren't themselves being raised in that religion, right?
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Some religious education is better than none at all.
Er, you mean education about religion, not indoctrination of kids who aren't themselves being raised in that religion, right?
Education 'about' religion is half of English RE.
The other half is learning 'from' religion.
This is where pupils discuss, evaluate and think about their own views e.g. they might look at pilgrimage and reflect upon journeys that have been significant for them.
examples and levels here
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I'd be interested in the differences between acceptance of "organized religion" and "religious belief". We are told repeatedly in Canada about a lack of affinity for organized religion but rather high belief level. Now, this high level of belief is pretty generic, i.e., belief in God, and is relatively undeveloped, but it isn't atheism. I would locate it somewhere between agnosticism and conventional church-based religious adherence, but probably 70% or ⅔ of the way towards agnostic,
Another factor in Canada, is that in many of our provinces, although publicly-funded (tax funded) schools are by far the norm, that constitutionally Roman Catholic schools (and to a lesser degree other denominations) are publicly funded, same as non-religious public schools. The RC schools do specific education from that tradition. It certainly seems to influence adherence to attendance locally. The RC churches are growing. Their program does appear socially and personally responsive, and not just the traditions and dogma. - from my perspective there is a particular overlay of RC-ness that I find troublesome, which is another topic. 50% of students are attended tax-funded RC schools here.
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You can't compare religion in the UK and the USA. They are like apples and oranges.
Or like Christianity and a slightly different form of Christianity.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I think this is an instance of a common experience. If you force something down people's throats, some of them will resent it a great deal. There are, for instance, people who loathe sports because they were forced to participate in sports in school. (We could have a whole thread on this; would it be in Heaven or in Hell?)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Some religious education is better than none at all.
Er, you mean education about religion, not indoctrination of kids who aren't themselves being raised in that religion, right?
I do wonder to what extent British children are 'indoctrinated' into Christianity by their schools, if they weren't from Christian families to start with. I think the numbers must be quite small, which is why some commentators agree that 'school religion' tends to inoculate children against Christianity.
Firstly, the non-denominational state schools are not routinely Christian in character, despite the legal requirement for assemblies and RE lessons to be mainly 'Christian in character'. Secondly, even the CofE state schools are not staffed by a majority of practising Anglicans as teachers. Thirdly, some church state schools are attended by children whose families are predominantly of another religion. Fourthly, the very popular schools have made churchgoing one of the criteria for acceptance; I imagine that this fosters cycnicism rather than faith among non-religious families.
The point is, it's not easy for schools indoctrinate Christianity into British children!
[ 31. October 2014, 19:46: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Re- there being no church input, that's not quite true. Each local authority has to have Standing Advisory Council on RE and an Agreed Syllabus Conference.
Both have 4 committees - one of which is the C of E and one is the 'other denominations' (nowadays stretched to include other faiths).
As for the person who said their child had no Christianity - that is breaking the law. Christianity has to make up at least 51% of a syllabus.
I'll note that the British Humanist Association has been lobbying for humanist representatives on the various Standing Advisory Council on RE (SACRE) with varying luck (some have them, some have them as non-voting members, and Birmingham flat-out prohibits them (see
BHA on Birmingham SACRE))
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spinner of webs
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I think this is an instance of a common experience. If you force something down people's throats, some of them will resent it a great deal. There are, for instance, people who loathe sports because they were forced to participate in sports in school. (We could have a whole thread on this; would it be in Heaven or in Hell?)
Hell!!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think RE would be seen as more useful if it included the structured teaching of theory of knowledge. The version of the International Baccalaureate I did included this, and it was very valuable.
In general I thinking teaching about faith is culturally important too, because large amounts of literature, soucres and references pre the last 50 years are difficult to interpret if you don't have that information. In the UK, and English language cultures, this is especially true of Christianity. We can't unmake that just because it maybe a minority belief now.
And theism of some sort is still mainstream.
I do think teaching about humanism would be of value too though.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Re the US/UK comparison: the schools in this province avoid almost all religious instruction, because of bad experiences with sectarianism (esp. violence). There is little enthusiasm for religion outside the school as well, without having the American desperation to demand that everyone be religious, so Canadians tend to be much less overt in their religious (or any) boosterism: it is seen as "bad form" for a politician to boast about his religiosity, for instance.
Chicken or egg in the teach religion/become religious thing. Negative experiences have their consequences, but I doubt that one weak RE teacher would make much difference compared to a childhood of church exposure or non-exposure.
I expect that the rise in numbers of the "nones" in the US will become quite large in the future, as the Millennials become more significant in the political landscape.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Re- there being no church input, that's not quite true. Each local authority has to have Standing Advisory Council on RE and an Agreed Syllabus Conference.
Both have 4 committees - one of which is the C of E and one is the 'other denominations' (nowadays stretched to include other faiths).
As for the person who said their child had no Christianity - that is breaking the law. Christianity has to make up at least 51% of a syllabus.
I'll note that the British Humanist Association has been lobbying for humanist representatives on the various Standing Advisory Council on RE (SACRE) with varying luck (some have them, some have them as non-voting members, and Birmingham flat-out prohibits them (see
BHA on Birmingham SACRE))
The BHA is very clued up about RE and strongly supports it.
We have a co-opted humanist on our SACRE will full voting rights.
Birmingham has caused a fuss about humanists because one Tory councillor strongly opposes their representation in SACRE and any mention of it in RE.
He is in a small minority but he is able to punch above his weight because he has access to power.
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Hear, hear, to the last three posts.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Re the US/UK comparison: the schools in this province avoid almost all religious instruction, because of bad experiences with sectarianism (esp. violence). There is little enthusiasm for religion outside the school as well, without having the American desperation to demand that everyone be religious, so Canadians tend to be much less overt in their religious (or any) boosterism: it is seen as "bad form" for a politician to boast about his religiosity, for instance.
Sounds very Australian (bar the violence - was mostly state funding antipathy related). Maybe it's a Commonwealth thing.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
School religion - training atheists?
I was late home the first day I attended Grammar School. I was given detention by the Head of Games (and top dog in the school's Scripture Union) because I didn't raise my cap to him. I know I was tall for my age but a) I didn't know I was supposed to raise my cap to masters, b) I didn't know he was a master and c) he didn't bother to ask. Whilst the injustice of his petty arrogance was only a very minor step on my way to atheism it did mean that I had very mixed feelings when, four years later, he banned overarm serving at Volleyball because, had he not ducked very quickly, I would have, accidentally, caused his head to try to squeeze between the top rungs of the gym's wallbars.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Is there a reasonable case to be made that rejection of religion in such a system is partly a typical adolescent rejection of parental (or in loco parentis, in the case of a school) authority - that people don't ever grow out of?
Might the church have a better future in the UK if it reduced its involvement in the education sector?
Religions and their followers would like to think so, because it would give them succour. It's not that the beliefs are unconvincing or even nonsensical, they'd like to say, but a childish rebellion which has nothing to do with the evidence and everything to do with the people who - horrors! - don't believe. It's ad hominem on a grand scale, denying people's lived experiences, their intellectual honesty and even their agency, and it's also complete nonsense.
First, you have to define terms. Religious education can be anything from open sectarian proselytising through to critical examination of significant faiths and moral views across the globe. The thesis that atheism is rebellion against compulsion only works in the presence of the former, but the latter is the modern norm, and recent decades have seen a massive shift away from the "recite the catechism" school of RE. It could be argued that the more open modern style is causing atheism, but that would be tantamount to admitting that religion is vulnerable to knowledge, which is probably why believers rarely venture in that direction.
Then you have to account for the many, many years of narrow "religious instruction" in the past, where children were literally told what to believe, and explain why that somehow failed to generate the same internal rebellion in all the generations of long-suffering children who were exposed to it, and somehow lived full lives without ever giving a hint of any atheism as a result.
Having demonstrated that the very idea is built on suppositions with no basis, you need to provide real evidence that there's anything even worth discussing. That doesn't mean anecdotes - selection bias is a risk, as is our tendency to spin narratives out of whole cloth to explain the chemical whims of our brains. People who are atheists are likely to resent tedious RE lessons, but that doesn't imply a relationship of cause and effect.
A controlled comparison of children exposed to different forms of RE may show a relationship, if the obvious influences of parental choice and beliefs can be eliminated, but without that, this amounts to a wild hypothesis that doesn't just lack evidence, it actually runs counter to the available evidence.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
RE in the vast majority of UK schools looks at things like various religions' attitudes to different ethical problems, comparing different religions' festivals, some larger case studies on specific religious topics (I remember doing one on the Hindu principle of Ahimsa (nonviolence) in GCSE RE). It's educating students about different religions, not instruction in one particular religion.
Seekingsister and other US people - do US students get no kind of comparative religion class at all? As in, they do not get taught about other people's religions? Surely that's a recipe for disaster and only leads to ignorance?
RE is an incredibly important subject.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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