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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What historical information could make you lose faith?
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
I'm not aware that anyone was talking about "corporeal resurrection ... with no spirit/soul" in the first place. I certainly wasn't.
[ 27. November 2014, 12:11: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Well, they are a very good representation of what corporeal resurrection would be like with no spirit/soul. It is the intangible that gives something special to the tangible/material, and so one question that arises is - does this soul/spirit need a physical material body at all? The answer is - "yes", if is to "live" materially (for whatever reason), but "no" if immaterial existence is also possible.
Why would you want to live with a third of you 'missing'? And why would the Creator bother to give us a body for 70 years if we are quite capable of living without one?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
I have also repeatedly asked
and repeatedly not understood I can't go into any more detail because I think you think literally and are ill-at-ease with metaphor.
Or you are just being obtuse.
To avoid being rude, I am not going to respond to any more seemingly hectoring questioning from you about this.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
I "literally" don't know how have the nerve to respond in that way, leo - I'll give you that much.
But I expect that's just one more symptom of my hectoring, unimaginative obtuseness.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Chesterbelloc and leo, that's enough, both of you. Take a step back from the personal sniping or take it to Hell.
/hosting
[ 27. November 2014, 15:48: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Well, they are a very good representation of what corporeal resurrection would be like with no spirit/soul. It is the intangible that gives something special to the tangible/material, and so one question that arises is - does this soul/spirit need a physical material body at all? The answer is - "yes", if is to "live" materially (for whatever reason), but "no" if immaterial existence is also possible.
Why would you want to live with a third of you 'missing'? And why would the Creator bother to give us a body for 70 years if we are quite capable of living without one?
If you are not in a living body, then by definition you are dead to this world. So the question "why would you want to live without one?" makes no sense. Why would a plastic bag want to be filled with heavy shopping when without that weight it can soar in the wind?
The second question - maybe we have to work hard here to re-find God, and maybe a physical life here this (amongst other things) is a good way of helping spirits who have "turned away" to have a chance to turn back around again? If so, then it is up to each of us individually to make that decision. This is probably off thread-topic, because it's intrinsically difficult to gather hard evidence either way. However, there are quite a few witness reports from NDEs and hypno-regressions.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/
Chesterbelloc and leo, that's enough, both of you. Take a step back from the personal sniping or take it to Hell.
/hosting
Message received and understood, Eutychus - my apologies.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Well, they are a very good representation of what corporeal resurrection would be like with no spirit/soul. It is the intangible that gives something special to the tangible/material, and so one question that arises is - does this soul/spirit need a physical material body at all? The answer is - "yes", if is to "live" materially (for whatever reason), but "no" if immaterial existence is also possible.
Why would you want to live with a third of you 'missing'? And why would the Creator bother to give us a body for 70 years if we are quite capable of living without one?
If you are not in a living body, then by definition you are dead to this world. So the question "why would you want to live without one?" makes no sense. Why would a plastic bag want to be filled with heavy shopping when without that weight it can soar in the wind?
I was once stopped by a Hindu 'evangelist' on Oxford Street and in our friendly exchange - he was very nice - the sunject of body and soul was touched upn.
I said that I have a body, a soul and a spirit. To this he replied, 'but what
are you?'
I therefore revised my answer: 'I am body, soul and spirit.'
The analogy of a carrier bag doesn't work because the carrier bag is not part of your shopping. If you were to wrap your shopping in one of the items you had bought - a shirt for example - then it would all be shopping.
My soul and spirit are not merely wrapped up in a 'carrier bag'; my body is as much a part of who I am as my soul. It reflects and expresses my personality perfectly. If my soul were suddenly to migrate to another man's body then it would look very, very odd indeed.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
'I am body, soul and spirit.'
A slight tangent but assuming you're not referring to the Holy Spirit here what is this "spirit" that is supposed to be separate from the soul?
[code]
[ 28. November 2014, 07:59: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Well, they are a very good representation of what corporeal resurrection would be like with no spirit/soul. It is the intangible that gives something special to the tangible/material, and so one question that arises is - does this soul/spirit need a physical material body at all? The answer is - "yes", if is to "live" materially (for whatever reason), but "no" if immaterial existence is also possible.
Why would you want to live with a third of you 'missing'? And why would the Creator bother to give us a body for 70 years if we are quite capable of living without one?
If you are not in a living body, then by definition you are dead to this world. So the question "why would you want to live without one?" makes no sense. Why would a plastic bag want to be filled with heavy shopping when without that weight it can soar in the wind?
I was once stopped by a Hindu 'evangelist' on Oxford Street and in our friendly exchange - he was very nice - the sunject of body and soul was touched upn.
I said that I have a body, a soul and a spirit. To this he replied, 'but what
are you?'
I therefore revised my answer: 'I am body, soul and spirit.'
The analogy of a carrier bag doesn't work because the carrier bag is not part of your shopping. If you were to wrap your shopping in one of the items you had bought - a shirt for example - then it would all be shopping.
Connective tissue is very like the shopping bag - and the soul. It organises all the cells, links everything together and without it we wouldn't get pas being a structureless blob of cells. But for the most part it becomes invisible - it takes up the space between (and the shape of) the organs it surrounds, it has been anatomically ignored for centuries because it is largely transparent and the filaments so fine that they were thought to be irrelevant. It conducts electrical activity in the body, so it also is an important communication system in addition to the nerves. It organises embryological growth so that you don't develop with fingers in your bottom. Similarly, the soul is invisible, and in the sense you talk about - living here on earth - yes - body, soul are in total what we think we are. However, the point of meditation is that if one starts to observe in detail the phenomena associated with living in a body, it becomes apparent that it's not a totally integrated and inseparable whole. There is a presence that inhabits but is not part of the physical body.
quote:
My soul and spirit are not merely wrapped up in a 'carrier bag'; my body is as much a part of who I am as my soul. It reflects and expresses my personality perfectly. If my soul were suddenly to migrate to another man's body then it would look very, very odd indeed.
Interesting phenomena around organ transplants - e.g. a concert pianist suddenly liking country & western music and beer - after receiving a heart transplanted from a trucker. The memory of previous likes gradually fades over about 6 months. But as a soul, we are something that goes behind preferences for opera vs dolly parton or salads vs burgers. If you go to a very good astrologer, they can give a very accurate picture of your personality, but astrologers still debate whether a person has the personality they have purely because of the birth time/place or whether they chose to be born at a particular time/place because that also reflected their essential qualities. We can't know these things - the questions remain open, not answered.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Interesting phenomena around organ transplants - e.g. a concert pianist suddenly liking country & western music and beer - after receiving a heart transplanted from a trucker.
Um, citation needed (not including Netflix...)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Interesting phenomena around organ transplants - e.g. a concert pianist suddenly liking country & western music and beer - after receiving a heart transplanted from a trucker.
Um, citation needed (not including Netflix...)
I'm not really up for citation games, but if you can't be bothered to have a look, this will do.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
'I am body, soul and spirit.'
A slight tangent but assuming you're not referring to the Holy Spirit here what is this "spirit" that is supposed to be separate from the soul?
[code]
Hebrews 4 v 12: For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit...
My boy is evidently alive. My soul - my emotions, my will, my personality, is alive. But Paul tells me that without Christ I am 'dead in my trespasses and sins.' It is my unredeemed spirit - the part that relates to God - that is dead; it is the spirit that comes alive in Christ, that receives eternal life and 'awakens' to the grace of God and then floods my whole self with the life of God.
Paul also tells me that I should offer my body as a living sacrifice - that shows that it's not my spirit alone that can now relate to God.
He finally prays that once I have been made holy by the infilling of the Holy Spirit, that my 'whole spirit, soul and body (may) be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' 1 Thessalonians 5 v 23
To prevent this becoming a needless tangent, it's precisely this - the fact that my body is used in worship and can be part of the sanctification process, that leads us to believe that it's not just a soon-to-be-discarded-on-death 'carrier bag' but will also be redeemed and resurrected as part of the tripartite resurrection experience of eternity.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Interesting phenomena around organ transplants - e.g. a concert pianist suddenly liking country & western music and beer - after receiving a heart transplanted from a trucker.
Um, citation needed (not including Netflix...)
I'm not really up for citation games, but if you can't be bothered to have a look, this will do.
I looked on PubMed and found nothing. Your link to a woo article on a woo website citing other woo authors doesn't really count as a citation.
Peer-reviewed studies anywhere?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
Yes - very easy to dismiss anything that you're not prepared to engage with in curiosity. Full marks for investigative effort.
on the one hand we have someone interpreting the bible to say that the soul and body are so implacably linked that the ONLY way that resurrection can occur is through reuniting a specific soul with a specific physical body. Said body has already rejoined the infinity of creation as its matter is redistributed and taken in by other living beings, It is the rain or snow, it might be part of a mosquito or snow leopard. It might become part of the bacteria that lines somebody's eye socket.
on the other hand we have someone saying that there is no animating force in the body at all other than something that arrives via the nerves. Pray tell how embryos live and self-organise, because their nervous system is not complete until just before birth? What is the organising force?
Clearly, living tissue having something of a life of its own (and the soul having a life of its own that is separable from the body) is not a popular concept.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
'I am body, soul and spirit.'
A slight tangent but assuming you're not referring to the Holy Spirit here what is this "spirit" that is supposed to be separate from the soul?
[code]
Hebrews 4 v 12: For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit...
My boy is evidently alive. My soul - my emotions, my will, my personality, is alive. But Paul tells me that without Christ I am 'dead in my trespasses and sins.' It is my unredeemed spirit - the part that relates to God - that is dead; it is the spirit that comes alive in Christ, that receives eternal life and 'awakens' to the grace of God and then floods my whole self with the life of God.
Paul also tells me that I should offer my body as a living sacrifice - that shows that it's not my spirit alone that can now relate to God.
He finally prays that once I have been made holy by the infilling of the Holy Spirit, that my 'whole spirit, soul and body (may) be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' 1 Thessalonians 5 v 23
To prevent this becoming a needless tangent, it's precisely this - the fact that my body is used in worship and can be part of the sanctification process, that leads us to believe that it's not just a soon-to-be-discarded-on-death 'carrier bag' but will also be redeemed and resurrected as part of the tripartite resurrection experience of eternity.
Yes - I am happy that the body as we live in it is sacred - it is our gift from God for this specific life.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Yes - very easy to dismiss anything that you're not prepared to engage with in curiosity. Full marks for investigative effort.
The link is full of highly anecdotal evidence and there is no way to distinguish factors other than purely cellular-related ones (e.g. emotional, psychological, or medicinal effects following a transplant operation).
Phrases like quote:
On some level, our son is still alive
and (eww) quote:
He’s in me. I know he is in me and he is in love with me. He was always my lover, maybe in another time somewhere
are not exactly redolent with objectivity. Certainly not enough to link the "interesting phenomena" you describe directly to the transplanted organs themselves.
[ 28. November 2014, 12:03: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Interesting phenomena around organ transplants - e.g. a concert pianist suddenly liking country & western music and beer - after receiving a heart transplanted from a trucker.
Um, citation needed (not including Netflix...)
I'm not really up for citation games, but if you can't be bothered to have a look, this will do.
I looked on PubMed and found nothing. Your link to a woo article on a woo website citing other woo authors doesn't really count as a citation.
Peer-reviewed studies anywhere?
I had my aortic valve replaced with a mechanical substitute last year. I haven't noticed much of a shift in personality towards the unemotionless megalomanical killer cyborg end of the scale. Which I confess comes as something of a disappointment.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Yes - very easy to dismiss anything for which no objective evidence is provided
FIFY.
Point is, if I took the page you linked to as meaning anything, I'd also have to take seriously the reality of alien abduction, teleportation and time travel in the "Philadelphia Experiment", fairies at the end of the garden and mediums talking to the dead. I'd also have to be uncritically gullible.
[ 28. November 2014, 12:21: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
on the one hand we have someone interpreting the bible to say that the soul and body are so implacably linked that the ONLY way that resurrection can occur is through reuniting a specific soul with a specific physical body. Said body has already rejoined the infinity of creation as its matter is redistributed and taken in by other living beings,
This starts well before death.
Shed skin cells are eaten by little bugs which are in turn eaten by bigger bugs ...
The spleen does a good job of getting rid of tired blood cells, which end up as fertiliser for plants which get eaten by animals.
People will already have atoms, molecules, compounds which were once part of me. I have been shedding cells for over 60 years. These other people who have my former atoms are not me at all.
I can't see why people get the idea that other people having your atoms is a problem. It is no problem.
The theology is that we leave behind our mortal physical bodies and are given new spiritual bodies. Isn't that what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15:44.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I had my aortic valve replaced with a mechanical substitute last year. I haven't noticed much of a shift in personality towards the unemotionless megalomanical killer cyborg end of the scale. Which I confess comes as something of a disappointment.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Quotes file.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
on the one hand we have someone interpreting the bible to say that the soul and body are so implacably linked that the ONLY way that resurrection can occur is through reuniting a specific soul with a specific physical body. Said body has already rejoined the infinity of creation as its matter is redistributed and taken in by other living beings,
This starts well before death.
Shed skin cells are eaten by little bugs which are in turn eaten by bigger bugs ...
The spleen does a good job of getting rid of tired blood cells, which end up as fertiliser for plants which get eaten by animals.
People will already have atoms, molecules, compounds which were once part of me. I have been shedding cells for over 60 years. These other people who have my former atoms are not me at all.
I can't see why people get the idea that other people having your atoms is a problem. It is no problem.
The theology is that we leave behind our mortal physical bodies and are given new spiritual bodies. Isn't that what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15:44.
No, because that's immortality, not RE-surrection.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
'I am body, soul and spirit.'
A slight tangent but assuming you're not referring to the Holy Spirit here what is this "spirit" that is supposed to be separate from the soul?
[code]
Hebrews 4 v 12: For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit...
My boy is evidently alive. My soul - my emotions, my will, my personality, is alive. But Paul tells me that without Christ I am 'dead in my trespasses and sins.' It is my unredeemed spirit - the part that relates to God - that is dead; it is the spirit that comes alive in Christ, that receives eternal life and 'awakens' to the grace of God and then floods my whole self with the life of God.
Paul also tells me that I should offer my body as a living sacrifice - that shows that it's not my spirit alone that can now relate to God.
He finally prays that once I have been made holy by the infilling of the Holy Spirit, that my 'whole spirit, soul and body (may) be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' 1 Thessalonians 5 v 23
To prevent this becoming a needless tangent, it's precisely this - the fact that my body is used in worship and can be part of the sanctification process, that leads us to believe that it's not just a soon-to-be-discarded-on-death 'carrier bag' but will also be redeemed and resurrected as part of the tripartite resurrection experience of eternity.
Life is given by the Holy Spirit, and not just to men but to all things, but I'm still not sure the examples you provide prove that man is made of more than body and soul, that he also has this separate thing called a "spirit", something different from the soul. I was always under the impression that the traditional Christian belief was that man is a duality (body and soul) in a unity.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
'Traditional'? Is that as opposed to Biblical?
Did you read the Bible passages?
Sometimes thinking that becomes 'traditional' over time is not strictly the truth - Reformation, anyone?
One way of looking at it is that all creatures have a physical presence - a body; all animals have emotions, instrincts, life and consciousness - a soul; humans also have a spirit - it's what makes us in the image of God, able to communicate with him, to worship, to pray.
[ 28. November 2014, 13:28: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
'Traditional'? Is that as opposed to Biblical?
Did you read the Bible passages?
Sometimes thinking that becomes 'traditional' over time is not strictly the truth - Reformation, anyone?
One way of looking at it is that all creatures have a physical presence - a body; all animals have emotions, instrincts, life and consciousness - a soul; humans also have a spirit - it's what makes us in the image of God, able to communicate with him, to worship, to pray.
Protestantism is a perculiarly western problem. I'm just not aware that the passages you provide were ever understood in the way you suggest. You might think that unscriptural. Alternatively it could be that you just don't understand it properly because I'm not sure it's quite as clear as you think. Given the choice I go with the traditional view, that spirit either refers to the incorporeal nature of the soul and/or the giver of all life, the Holy Spirit.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
'Traditional'? Is that as opposed to Biblical?
Did you read the Bible passages?
Sometimes thinking that becomes 'traditional' over time is not strictly the truth - Reformation, anyone?
One way of looking at it is that all creatures have a physical presence - a body; all animals have emotions, instrincts, life and consciousness - a soul; humans also have a spirit - it's what makes us in the image of God, able to communicate with him, to worship, to pray.
Protestantism is a perculiarly western problem. I'm just not aware that the passages you provide were ever understood in the way you suggest. You might think that unscriptural. Alternatively it could be that you just don't understand it properly because I'm not sure it's quite as clear as you think. Given the choice I go with the traditional view, that spirit either refers to the incorporeal nature of the soul and/or the giver of all life, the Holy Spirit.
I would be interested therefore in your exegesis of the two verses I quoted - the one about dividing soul and spirit, and the one about the body, soul and spirit being preserved blameless.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
]Connective tissue is very like the shopping bag - and the soul....
Oh pray don't tell me my connective tissue has anything to do with the soul--given my genetic condition I would be forced to believe my soul was in very poor condition.
come to think of it...
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
The connective tissue is amongst other things the electrical layer, LambC - I would think that the soul is subtle enough to have no need for electrical circuits :-)
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
'Traditional'? Is that as opposed to Biblical?
Did you read the Bible passages?
Sometimes thinking that becomes 'traditional' over time is not strictly the truth - Reformation, anyone?
One way of looking at it is that all creatures have a physical presence - a body; all animals have emotions, instrincts, life and consciousness - a soul; humans also have a spirit - it's what makes us in the image of God, able to communicate with him, to worship, to pray.
Protestantism is a perculiarly western problem. I'm just not aware that the passages you provide were ever understood in the way you suggest. You might think that unscriptural. Alternatively it could be that you just don't understand it properly because I'm not sure it's quite as clear as you think. Given the choice I go with the traditional view, that spirit either refers to the incorporeal nature of the soul and/or the giver of all life, the Holy Spirit.
I would be interested therefore in your exegesis of the two verses I quoted - the one about dividing soul and spirit, and the one about the body, soul and spirit being preserved blameless.
Am I being too simplistic? It seems quite simple - the soul contains the spirit, the body contains the soul. each is like salt dissolved in water to the next one. On death we return to being "only" souls, and souls are vehicles for the immortal spirit. They are all part of creation, and in reality, only the spiritual world is truly "real", and is causal to all the rest. But since we need to be embedded in another couple of layers to function physically here on this physical plane, we have to work a bit harder to live in conscious connection to God. The physical and soul levels are truly "images" of the spirit, and of God, but I don't think that souls are constrained to having to take on a physical form.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Soul, spirit, mind, heart, character, will, personality, these are not words that we or biblical writers use according to definitions. You just grab whichever one looks as if it might do the job for you today.
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My crazy theology in novel form
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
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Posted
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Originally posted by Eliab:
I had my aortic valve replaced with a mechanical substitute last year. I haven't noticed much of a shift in personality towards the unemotionless megalomanical killer cyborg end of the scale. Which I confess comes as something of a disappointment.
![[Smile]](smile.gif) I too had my aortic valve replaced last year, but with a 'bovine tissue' valve; fortunately, no sign of any changes in characteristics!!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Am I being too simplistic? It seems quite simple - the soul contains the spirit, the body contains the soul. each is like salt dissolved in water to the next one. On death we return to being "only" souls, and souls are vehicles for the immortal spirit. They are all part of creation, and in reality, only the spiritual world is truly "real", and is causal to all the rest. But since we need to be embedded in another couple of layers to function physically here on this physical plane, we have to work a bit harder to live in conscious connection to God. The physical and soul levels are truly "images" of the spirit, and of God, but I don't think that souls are constrained to having to take on a physical form.
That is an extremely off view - and is not Biblical, as far as I can see.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's an utterly untransferrable, inchoate, subjective, inner projected view that could work as poetry. Like all narratives including The Books. Chaos trying to make order of itself.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Am I being too simplistic? It seems quite simple - the soul contains the spirit, the body contains the soul. each is like salt dissolved in water to the next one. On death we return to being "only" souls, and souls are vehicles for the immortal spirit. They are all part of creation, and in reality, only the spiritual world is truly "real", and is causal to all the rest. But since we need to be embedded in another couple of layers to function physically here on this physical plane, we have to work a bit harder to live in conscious connection to God. The physical and soul levels are truly "images" of the spirit, and of God, but I don't think that souls are constrained to having to take on a physical form.
That is an extremely off view - and is not Biblical, as far as I can see.
I haven't seen a biblical quotation yet that is contradictory to it.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Can you explain the phrase, 'On death we return to being "only" souls'?
'Return'? That implies that we came from being a soul, took on a temporary body, and that the dead have now returned to that former disembodied state.
Is that what you are implying?
Further to that I would deny that the soul is immortal until it is regenerate, along with the sanctified spirit and body.
[ 29. November 2014, 10:24: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
That is an extremely off view - and is not Biblical, as far as I can see.
The Bible is far easier understand on a compassionate and spiritual level if such views can be drawn from it.
I personally find it hard to read the Bible without dismissing several parts of it as being some kind of vindictive rant.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
That is an extremely off view - and is not Biblical, as far as I can see.
The Bible is far easier understand on a compassionate and spiritual level if such views can be drawn from it.
I personally find it hard to read the Bible without dismissing several parts of it as being some kind of vindictive rant.
From a compassionate, pastoral POV, all I can say is what the Bible teaches and people really want: they want to be 'themselves' after death. They want to be complete, they want to be recognisably them.
Why would God take the trouble to design us so that we are 'fearfully and wonderfully made' if this body is to be discarded? Modern thinking sees us as much more a whole than previously thought. The body is not just a carrier bag; it's very much a part of who I am and what I want to be.
The doctrine of resurrection is much more pastorally compassionate and satisfying than the doctrine of immortal souls flitting about in some cloudy, echoing sky.
I want to be 'me'. Resurrection of the whole person provides for that.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Can you explain the phrase, 'On death we return to being "only" souls'?
'Return'? That implies that we came from being a soul, took on a temporary body, and that the dead have now returned to that former disembodied state.
Is that what you are implying?
Yes - that's correct - we come, we pass through, we return again - birth and death are transitions. We start as a soul, we embody/incarnate into this wonderful body, and then we let go of our physical body again, and its components return to the act of continuous physical creation.
quote:
Further to that I would deny that the soul is immortal until it is regenerate, along with the sanctified spirit and body.
Yes - Spirit is immortal
If you want "Your body" back you will have to define what that is... for instance, you can't survive without about 90% of the DNA in your body NOT being human... it's bacterial colonies - maybe 7000 species of them. As I said, one function of meditation is to explore the human condition from the inside in detail, and the end point that process gets to is that the physical body is experienced not being equivalent to the "I". It has several attributes that are confuse-able with "I", including the fact that it runs and generates much of the emotion that we are aware of. Love is an exception to that. Observation in detail unpicks that fallacy of I=body.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
That is an extremely off view - and is not Biblical, as far as I can see.
The Bible is far easier understand on a compassionate and spiritual level if such views can be drawn from it.
I personally find it hard to read the Bible without dismissing several parts of it as being some kind of vindictive rant.
From a compassionate, pastoral POV, all I can say is what the Bible teaches and people really want: they want to be 'themselves' after death. They want to be complete, they want to be recognisably them.
Why would God take the trouble to design us so that we are 'fearfully and wonderfully made' if this body is to be discarded? Modern thinking sees us as much more a whole than previously thought. The body is not just a carrier bag; it's very much a part of who I am and what I want to be.
The doctrine of resurrection is much more pastorally compassionate and satisfying than the doctrine of immortal souls flitting about in some cloudy, echoing sky.
I want to be 'me'. Resurrection of the whole person provides for that.
Maybe it's not so cloudy or empty and echoing? I would say that the glory of "returning home" at death is far more compassionate. I guess each person has a different taste for how they would prefer it - we'll find out whether the preferences were correct when the time comes.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
So then you believe in reincarnation.
Fair enough, it's a widespread belief and I respect the sincerity but it's not Christian.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So we won't get bodies again?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So we won't get bodies again?
Well you might, but if you're not a good boy it might be the body of a slug!
It won't be 'you' though, will it.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
What are you going to do if you are wrong about what happens after you die?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
What are you going to do if you are wrong about what happens after you die?
Demand a refund?
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
As long as it's a glorified, transcendent slug and I remember me mum and dad and our Sarah and the budgies and Jack Russels and me Nan and they all remember me, I don't mind if it's not me.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
As long as it's a glorified, transcendent slug and I remember me mum and dad and our Sarah and the budgies and Jack Russels and me Nan and they all remember me, I don't mind if it's not me.
It would be OK if they were all slugs - what would you do if a slug-hating relative put salt on you?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That would be my mother.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
That would be my mother.
Oh dear. LOL?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yeah, she'd literally have cataplexy at my Dad and me shooting snails on the ha-ha, but would salt slugs.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Many of us our cool with the idea of ressurection after death, even those not ascribed to the Church and it's teaching.
It's that damn damnation bit that puts the mockers on it. Some go to a good place for all eternity, some go to a bad place for all eternity? For reasons that are, at best, clear as mud. I don't want to derail the thread but, you know... WTF?
The information provided in some fire an' brim Gospel passages and Revelation is sufficient to make me seriously question, and pretty much reject the doctrine of Heaven and Hell. It still doesn't make me lose faith in The Light, that seems to be something different.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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