Ship of Fools: What price sincerity?

Thread: What price sincerity? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :

I have a problem.

Having had to listen to preachers proclaim ( what to my mind is utter nonsense) what can be done?

In a recent instance the preacher made a pigs-ear of a Biblical passage and when I raised the issue with Church leaders their response was " He might be wrong but he is sincere". And that, for them, meant taking no further action.

Any advice? Apart from staying away from known 'sincere' preachers?

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

I remember talking with a coworker years ago and expressing irritation with the Jehovah's Witnesses, whose intrusiveness (I remarked) was nearly as annoying as their heresy. Her response was something along the lines of "Yes, but they're very sincere." I was tempted to respond that Hitler was also very sincere.

Sincerity, by itself, signifies very little. It's certainly to be preferred over insincerity, but one can be very earnestly and sincerely wrong, ignorant, or stupid--in which case the sincerity is not a perceptible benefit.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

I recall this as well in a particularly instance. I decided to focus on the liturgy and ignore the piously ridiculous words.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

If the church leaders (!) are saying this sort of nonsense, take it as an early warning and act accordingly. Sincerity humph!

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:

In a recent instance the preacher made a pigs-ear of a Biblical passage and when I raised the issue with Church leaders their response was " He might be wrong but he is sincere". And that, for them, meant taking no further action.

Any advice? Apart from staying away from known 'sincere' preachers?

Better to raise it with the preacher themselves, I would have thought. The lay leaders might not have the knowledge or confidence to condemn their minister's teachings outright.

OTOH, I wouldn't be brave enough to question a minister I didn't know. Even the ones I do know don't seem to expect their congregations to challenge them on doctrinal matters.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

I think it all comes down to cases.

As a left-wing evangelical, I'm almost always worshipping in a place where I differ on one side of the equation or another. So the experience of hearing something in a sermon I disagree with is pretty much a weekly occurrence for me. I don't go to Church to have my beliefs confirmed, so that's not a problem for me personally, and in fact, I suspect at times the friction of having to worship and commune with people I disagree with does good things for my soul and maybe for my theology as well.

When I disagree I rarely raise it as an issue. The few times I have, has (as others have noted) when I have a close enough relationship with the preacher that I sense s/he would appreciate my input. Even then, I choose my battles carefully-- usually those where I think the false teaching can cause some real damage, spiritually or otherwise, to some of those present.

As Svitlana said, if it's to be raised at all, it is with the preacher him/herself, not with other congregants, even lay leaders. Otherwise you're just sowing discontent and dissension.

[ 01. December 2014, 20:53: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Virtually every hymn is an opportunity for prayer ... the sermons are good to harmless. One is learning what tolerance and inclusion and living in peace with all really mean.

A most sincere 70 year old hairdresser announced that he would be leading a discussion on exactly what Jesus meant by a particular expression. I'd love to have gone ...

I did have to privately email the vicar about the bogus reports from Iraq that were sincerely flashed up.

Only if there was sincere racism, damnationism, Islamophobia, homophobia or some such would I act. I'd walk out. And I wouldn't be delicate about opening and closing the big oak door.

I'd take great pleasure in coming back the following week and saying nothing at all. Poised. A foolish fantasy.

I do look forward to sincerely wearing my red AND white poppies next year. In the context of the MOST sincere and proper yet incomplete Remembrance.

But as for sincere hubris and strangled homiletics, it's something to talk and pray about with my wife afterwards.

Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :

Well, maybe it's not PC to say this on a discussion board, but sincerity is about saying what has been experienced as the truth, not what is an idea that sounds good at the time.

And without sincerity we would not get anywhere.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Depends by what you see/understand of the preacher making a "pigs ear" of the passage.

What exactly did you see/hear that was wrong?

If you didn't like it, that's one thing - if you found it to be heretical another - if it was plain daft, then something else. There are more categories that make up a pigs ear - which one was it?

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

I expect Jesus was sincere. The accounts of make him sound sincere.

To the Pharisees, Seduces and Teachers of the Law he was a heretic.

Yours sincerely,
etc, etc.

TM

Posted by lowlands_boy (# 12497) on :

I see from your profile that you're a Methodist. In which case (in the UK at least), it may well have been a preacher rather than a minister. So, you could take it up with your own minister, or the superintendent, or maybe the local preachers secretary.

It's not that frequent in these parts that ministers (who, in theory at least, should be most theologically qualified) actually get to sit and listen to preachers, as the ministers themselves are normally out taking services at the same time.

There are still assessed services under continuing development for local preachers etc, but they are often done by another preacher. Chances are if this person is getting around enough circuit appointments apart from your church, other people might be noticing that they might not be up to much. But if no one ever says anything....

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I was rather perturbed a year ago when a Methodist lay preacher said in a sermon that God today isn't the God of yesterday, namely that God had changed. What he was getting at was that the church needed to move with the times, but that statement about God didn't sit well with me at all.

I didn't know the church or the preacher, and the setting was busier and 'posher' than I'm used to in a Methodist church. Consequently I didn't have the inclination or the opportunity to ask questions.

Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :

I was heartbroken to hear St Michael Green in our church talk authoritatively about the fact of intelligent design in Creation. Oh, Michael, where did it all go wrong ...

And I do wish our vicar, who is excellent in every other way, would think of running his sermon illustrations through Snopes first.

Yet, both men - one through his books, one through his active ministry in my life - have done amazing things for me. But they're wrong sometimes. So is everyone.

Ultimately, it's up to us. Any sermon can only be a pointer or a nudge. Go home, look up any Bible references that were given (and remember they were probably written by a formally-trained ex-Pharisee with the zeal of a convert for his new faith, so view them through that lens), and work it out for yourself. As the ex-Pharisee himself says: "test everything; hold onto the good."

Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :

Hold onto the Good - yes - thank you
I
've come across some people who I respect a lot for various reasons, who really question things like global warming, and evolution and other stuff I take for granted. And it's really made me step back and question how so-called scientific theories can so easily become belief systems. So - I find myself having come to believe in Global Warming, Evolution, etc and wonder whether this is really a Good Thing. I am not disputing them, but more saying that the degree to which ideas can take over one's very identity is something to be marvelled at, and something to be aware of with some caution. If we're talking sincerity, all I can truly say is what I have experienced and how I experienced it. If I only pay attention to the "facts" and not to the qualitative experience, then it is not possible to be truly sincere. Sincerity about an idea is - illogical, Captain.

[ 02. December 2014, 13:42: Message edited by: itsarumdo ]

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

Ah, yes, the "urban rumor presented in sermon a truth." But we all fall for an urban rumor now and then.

Interesting question, would you rather be taught by someone mistakenly wrong or someone intentionally wrong? Ideally, of course, neither.

The one mistakenly wrong, sincere, might or might not be teachable. The scam artist might or might nit be revealable for what s/he is.

I guess "sincere" gets endorsed because at least their motives are honest.

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

IMO sincerity is a necessary but not sufficient condition to justify a call to preach. IMO it should also include a certain level of education, the capacity to present a reasoned argument, a message that is within the generous boundaries of Christian doctrine, respects the privileged position of access to the pulpit, and is audible. I would also like a preacher to be open-minded, and one who doesn't bore the pants off the congregation.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
IMO sincerity is a necessary but not sufficient condition to justify a call to preach. IMO it should also include a certain level of education, the capacity to present a reasoned argument, a message that is within the generous boundaries of Christian doctrine, respects the privileged position of access to the pulpit, and is audible. I would also like a preacher to be open-minded, and one who doesn't bore the pants off the congregation.

It does no harm to run it past someone else beforehand, as a quality/BS check. Grady Wilson did this for Billy Graham. Maybe Franklin Graham needs someone similar.

Posted by moron (# 206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Hold onto the Good - yes - thank you
I
've come across some people who I respect a lot for various reasons, who really question things like global warming, and evolution and other stuff I take for granted. And it's really made me step back and question how so-called scientific theories can so easily become belief systems. So - I find myself having come to believe in Global Warming, Evolution, etc and wonder whether this is really a Good Thing. I am not disputing them, but more saying that the degree to which ideas can take over one's very identity is something to be marvelled at, and something to be aware of with some caution. If we're talking sincerity, all I can truly say is what I have experienced and how I experienced it. If I only pay attention to the "facts" and not to the qualitative experience, then it is not possible to be truly sincere. Sincerity about an idea is - illogical, Captain.

Overall I'd agree but depends on the idea, no?

May be the place to draw the line is free will.

Where is Thoreau when you need him.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

If someone is telling me a load and they are sincere, all that means is that they really believe the crap they're spewing.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I understand that in the Left Behind series, all the good guys (from the books' point of view) are described as being 'passionately sincere'.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

Really? Someone I used to work with "sincerely" believed I would be tossed into the gaping maw of hell because I wasn't premillennial, or maybe sufficiently enough so, to suit his taste. Being panmillennial just wasn't good enough for him. Oh, well.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
And I do wish our vicar, who is excellent in every other way, would think of running his sermon illustrations through Snopes first.

If all clergy did this, I doubt many of the standard sermon tropes would survive the journey. "Eye of the needle" = "A gate in Jerusalem", anyone?

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I would have thought that most of us who have experienced some sort of higher education, will be used to lecturers / tutors putting forward a biased view in order to challenge us, make us think, go and find out for ourselves, come back with a counter argument. I therefore go into any church service and listen to the sermon with my critical student face on - I don't really expect to hear lots of things I agree with, but find plenty to chew over and think through. Occasionally I will challenge the preacher over coffee, but normally will keep my conclusions to myself, glad that I've been goaded into developing an opinion.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I remember talking with a coworker years ago and expressing irritation with the Jehovah's Witnesses, whose intrusiveness (I remarked) was nearly as annoying as their heresy. Her response was something along the lines of "Yes, but they're very sincere." I was tempted to respond that Hitler was also very sincere.

Incidentally, and embarrassingly, Jehovah's Witnesses presented a more consistent defiance of the Nazis than any other religious group.

quote:
Sincerity, by itself, signifies very little. It's certainly to be preferred over insincerity, but one can be very earnestly and sincerely wrong, ignorant, or stupid--in which case the sincerity is not a perceptible benefit.

Groucho Marx: "What matter more than anything else are integrity and sincerity. If you can fake those, you've got it made".

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Groucho Marx: "What matter more than anything else are integrity and sincerity. If you can fake those, you've got it made".

Like all successful politicians?

Posted by moron (# 206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Really? Someone I used to work with "sincerely" believed I would be tossed into the gaping maw of hell because I wasn't premillennial, or maybe sufficiently enough so, to suit his taste. Being panmillennial just wasn't good enough for him.

Does he still get you riled?

Just curious. (If yes, please PM me his email.)

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

In my former RL, I had to triage applications for literary grants and from time to time recalled Harold Bloom's dictum that most really bad poetry is ver sincere. To paraphrase one of my former managers, sincerity relates to the input, not the output.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by moron:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Really? Someone I used to work with "sincerely" believed I would be tossed into the gaping maw of hell because I wasn't premillennial, or maybe sufficiently enough so, to suit his taste. Being panmillennial just wasn't good enough for him.
Does he still get you riled?

Just curious. (If yes, please PM me his email.)

No, he never had me riled. A good number of folks around here hold to his or some related version of premillennialism so I've heard most all of it. I guess he has been the only one that I can recall actually telling me it is gaping maw important to have it figured out. I don't know if they are right or wrong. I do believe that when it comes to end time stuff that God's going to handle it the way he is going to handle it whether I figure anything out or not, so I don't worry about it. Folks either trust God or they don't.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

hosting/

quote:
Originally posted by moron:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Really? Someone I used to work with "sincerely" believed I would be tossed into the gaping maw of hell because I wasn't premillennial, or maybe sufficiently enough so, to suit his taste. Being panmillennial just wasn't good enough for him.
Does he still get you riled?

Just curious. (If yes, please PM me his email.)

PSA: Incitement to harassment is not something we encourage around here. And bear in mind that PMs are covered by the 10 Commandments.

/hosting

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I would have thought that most of us who have experienced some sort of higher education, will be used to lecturers / tutors putting forward a biased view in order to challenge us, make us think, go and find out for ourselves, come back with a counter argument. I therefore go into any church service and listen to the sermon with my critical student face on - I don't really expect to hear lots of things I agree with, but find plenty to chew over and think through. Occasionally I will challenge the preacher over coffee, but normally will keep my conclusions to myself, glad that I've been goaded into developing an opinion.

I have sat through many a dull sermon because it largely consisted of platitudes or the accepted line. No challenge at all. Just be [I]nice.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Its like criticising some stand-in musician in a church only to be told 'they mean well, and they're doing it for the church' - so that makes the end result of them sounding as if they're wearing boxing gloves OK then?

Try telling that to an enraged bride's mother...

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Sincerity is necessary but not sufficient? Plus I always liked the Groucho Marx quote. How sure can you be that any of us is being sincere at a particular point in time?

There's another quote I like from 'Yes Prime Minister'.

"We never trust those we have successfully deceived". We damage ourselves by playing fast and loose with the truth as we perceive it, particularly if we have a reputation for being sincere.

I've heard a lot of poor sermons preached by sincere people. No, let me qualify that. I've heard a lot of sermons I've perceived as poor preached by people I perceive to be both generally sincere and sincere in particular about what they are saying. I follow through on a small proportion of those if I think the poverty of the sermon, either in terms of accuracy or fairness, might cause significant damage. Otherwise I let it go. And if I follow through, then I'm open to the possibility of having misunderstood, or simply being wrong myself.

The habit of "having the preacher for lunch" i.e. devouring his abilities and/or character doesn't do any of us a lot of good either. I guess you have to choose when to challenge and recognise the poverty of fruitless whingeing per se. Do something or drop it.

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