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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Service-lite churches
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm following up some comments/ideas from the 'Not of this world' thread about churches which intentionally go for a 'service-lite' approach in order to 'release' their congregations to get involved with other things.
I say 'intentionally' because, arguably, some 'service-lite' churches - rural parishes etc - have spreadly thin services for logistical reasons - ie. they don't have the resources for more regular services.
I'm thinking of those which do have the resources to lay on more services should they wish, but which choose not to.
Eutychus has given us an example from what he is currently trying to achieve in his own context. That can be found on the 'Not of this World' thread.
This may end up in Ecclesiantics but I've posted it here in Purgatory as I'd like to explore the philosophical issues as well as the practical ones or issues about what the format/liturgy might consist of in such circumstances.
Although all that obviously has a bearing. The two things are linked.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
It's not just formal worship that is a burden on many churchpeople; it's church as an organisation. The more committees, working parties, schemes that a church expects people to be involved with, the more they are withdrawn from their primary mission in the world. There may well be a need for the church to pioneer things that others don't; foodbanks (as regrettable as they are) is a good example. But many activities are just a way of keeping Christians in their own little clique and uninvolved with the world.
I found it frustrating, working in one deprived urban parish, how community groups in support of the unemployed, drug addicts etc, were largely run by non-Christians, or by lapsed or practising RCs, and ignored by the Anglicans who preferred to concentrate on their own church-based clubs.
'Being the Church' to me means attendance at Mass, commitment to a life of prayer, and living for others in the community. Not creating a holy huddle.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Since this thread has been started, I'll repost my comments made on the other thread here:
quote:
I think church should be a service-station and not Disneyland: somewhere you stop off at but not somewhere that you want to stay at.
If churches grow they spawn management tiers that can easily become dominated by people more interested in (Christian) work creation and securing their own positions than in where the Spirit is leading, and become inward-looking. They create a sub-culture and you've lost your counter-cultural engagement right there.
The church I'm currently leading has just one mid-week meeting in addition to Sunday morning. If people want to go and do Christian stuff there are enough project-focused, parachurch organisations in town to get involved in. Others get involved in ecumenical associations, others again in, well, whatever everyone else in the World™ does. I think that's called being Salt and Light.
I see the functions of Sunday morning as corporate worship, teaching, and equipping people to realise their New Covenant identity by which the Spirit writes the law on their hears and gives them the ability to think for themselves and have their consciences educated by him.
Inasmuch as it exists, my long-term vision for the church is to have a whole bunch of people who could encourage others to realise the same thing, no matter where they are or what type of church they attend (or don't).
My philosophy of ministry ( ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) is "God made it grow". That is all. I try and get on with applying Kingdom values as I see them in all walks of life. Most of this is by accident and necessity, not design, but I can honestly say it seems to work as well as any other approach I've tried.
[fixed bad smiley quote]
[ 21. December 2014, 11:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I know of one Vineyard church that doesn't meet on the last Sunday of the month. Something to do with serving the community instead.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thanks Eutychus ...
And thanks for your contribution too, Angloid. I'm afraid to say, you paint a picture that I also recognise to some extent.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I am currently encouraged, though, by our local Pentecostal church's plans for the community centre it's building at the back of its hut-like meeting hall and cafe.
They intend it to become some kind of hub for community and volunteering activities - they have people there with expertise in training volunteers, linking up voluntary agencies and so on. That initiative holds promise, I think.
I've complained on these boards before - and been gently upbraided for doing so - about the low level of involvement I've seen from evangelicals at some community arty initiatives I've helped organise - although to be fair, they do turn out along with everyone else for certain community events.
My experience of evangelical/charismatic fellowships which have tried to adopt a meeting-lite approach is that they've tended to collapse as everyone suddenly makes up for lost time by lying in bed on a Sunday morning or crashing out in front of the telly ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
A friend of mine in a major Midlands city is involved with a largely Christian-based charity and she's always struck by how few evangelicals and Pentecostals are actually doing anything with it or for it - but how active practicing and lapsed RCs are in doing some tremendous work on its behalf - often unseen and unsung.
At any rate, I'd be interested in hearing more from Eutychus as to how the model he has adopted serves to 'equip' or help his congregation in terms of their external involvement.
Are any themes adopted for preaching and teaching that serve that end? Is there a particular focus on these things through the format and 'activities' - of whatever kind - adopted for the services themselves?
I'd also be interested to hear whether Shipmates believe that a traditional communion service or an Evensong etc helps prepare/equip them for wider community involvement.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Apologies, I cross-posted with you, South Coast Kevin. I'd be interested in how that 'spare' Sunday works out for these Vineyarders on the ground.
I was involved in a church which decided to drop its Sunday services entirely and meet midweek. The idea was that the weekends would then be free for people to 'develop warm contacts' as the ghastly jargon went ...
Instead, everyone laid in bed or else visited other churches or watched 'Little House on The Prairie' ...
The experiment was called off after a while - it was clearly not working. Arguably, in terms of numbers, profile etc this church never fully recovered from this attempt ... it always had a 'revolving door' but numbers declined steadily from then on.
Not that it's all a numbers game ... of course.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
I wonder if people at different stages of faith need different things from the church. For example, a new Christian from a non christian family etc might be keen to get involved with a lot of church events, find out 'how christians do things', learn more about faith etc etc. Those who have been around a while need to either be involved in mentoring such people, or getting involved 'out there', but they stick around in home groups etc because it is comfortable, claiming this as discipleship. But discipleship needs challenge and practice - out there! How to encourage them in this is tricky though.
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
At any rate, I'd be interested in hearing more from Eutychus as to how the model he has adopted serves to 'equip' or help his congregation in terms of their external involvement.
First and foremost, simply by giving them more time in which to be involved elsewhere.
Secondly, by not preaching, implicitly or explicitly, that to be a good christian you have to be involved in christian projects eight days a week.
These are two really simple things that in my experience you can go a long way to find.
Thirdly, you simply encourage people to "live out good lives among the pagans so that they might glorify God on the day he visits us". I think that's in the Bible somewhere...
Finally, an anecdote:
Many years ago I was involved in running a kids' residential holiday camp that ran for several weeks at a time. For several years we used to have a nurse on site, and she would inevitably have a steady stream of 'patients' during her 'surgery'. The last year I did the camp, we had no permanent nurse. What struck me was that while we of course did have to handle the occasional emergency, we didn't have loads of untreated casualities around the place.
I think churches have often become over-equipped with pastoral staff who take over the job of "one-anothering" that we are all supposed to do. Churches tend to foster dependency or co-dependency because doing so creates "leadership" positions for people rising up the ranks to fill, and exercise power. I really don't think the people in our congregation are worse off in the long run than if they had fleets of pastoral staff looking after them. They are learning, by and large, to be autonomous, or, if you prefer, mature in Christ.
[ 21. December 2014, 12:37: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes - I think that's true, Jenn.
I've not been to a 'house-group' for 4 or 5 years now - and our vicar has just about got used to it.
He finds it hard to understand why I wouldn't want to be involved with them. I tried, but found them pretty dire to be honest - although I've enjoyed being in house-groups in the past and even led them at one time or other ...
I don't object to seasonal study groups - during Lent, say - but the idea of regularly committing to a 'housegroup' - or 'growth group' as they are hideously called at our church - on a regular weekday evening fills me with horror.
If other people want to get involved with such things, then fine ... but they tend to become 'clubby' and insular and the 'discipleship' value and element is questionable in my view.
I'd much rather people get involved with whatever else is going on in their areas - voluntary organisations, hobby groups, charities, political parties - whatever else.
There has to be room and scope for small-group type activity but I can't say I'm impressed with the models I've generally seen adopted ... apart from the RC lectio-divina approach - because that follows a set-format and doesn't hive off into cloud-cuckoo land 'God told me to eat Weetabix rather than cornflakes,' territory ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Oh and I'm against "spare" Sundays, because I'm a firm believer in having regular Sunday worship. You never know who is going to turn up.
There is a category of people in our church who have trouble believing Sunday meetings exist during school holidays (because they are always out of town then), but where the church has been forged has been in the depths of the Christmas holidays and the parched desert of summer.
And there is another category of people in our church who simply don't have the organisational or intellectual abilities to wonder about which Sunday of the month it is. They expect to be able to arrive at the church after months or even years of absence and find us there; and I think that's how it should be.
[ 21. December 2014, 12:43: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Hmmm ... yes, a lot of what you say strikes a chord with me, Eutychus.
At the risk of identifying (or disparaging) our local vicar's wife, I tend to hide behind the hedge whenever I see her coming as she acts as self-appointed recruiting sergeant for this, that or the other eight days a week church initiative.
I know I'm not the only one. Others do the same.
I literally run and hide whenever I see her coming.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'll be honest, I skip a lot of Sundays these days - but, like you, I believe in regular Sunday services for the reasons you cite.
Call me old-fashioned, but farting about with the timetabling never serves any positive purpose - unless there is some kind of cast-iron, watertight reason for changing the pattern ie. the majority of your congregation works for a minimum wage in restaurants on bars on a Sunday.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
I think the evangelical/non-evangelical thing is interesting. Round here it's largely the evangelical churches that supply bodies for Street Pastors. It's someone from an evo fellowship who set up a charity working with young people with addictions and offending issues. It's still evos who staff it, and he's now setting up a residential unit for people working on heavyweight addiction.
However ... you won't find many evos in the Oxfam shop, or doing the white elephant etc. So it seems to be more about the type of voluntary work rather than theology.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I think that's largely the case, Snags. It's not that evangelicals are necessarily not involved with charitable/voluntary work ... it's more a case that the type of such work they'll engage in or support will be of a particular kind ... such as 'mission' flavoured thingummies like Street Pastors.
Round here, churches of all stripes are involved in Foodbank initiatives - and evangelicals are prominent in the running/organisation of them.
Generally speaking, though - when the voluntary arts organisation I'm involved with organises an event we get very few of the evangelicals along, but quite a few people from the more liberal or MoR churches.
Not that I go looking at the religious make-up of the audiences ... but in a small town you tend to be aware of the religious affiliation of those people who do attend church as you recognise them round and about.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Oh and I'm against "spare" Sundays, because I'm a firm believer in having regular Sunday worship. You never know who is going to turn up.
...
They expect to be able to arrive at the church after months or even years of absence and find us there; and I think that's how it should be.
They'd have a problem in those rural benefices, where you know that if it's the Fourth Sunday of the month (barring August or December) then it will be 11 am Matins at Little Splotbury, or if it's the Third Sunday (assuming there's an "r" in the month), then it will be 6.30 pm Evensong at Great Splotbury etc. etc. Or "as arranged", of course!
Like this! And I don't know how it can be done better.
[ 21. December 2014, 15:00: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
I don't have as many friends as I would like but several of the friends I do have are people I met in church home groups, so I am glad the churches had those groups.
I know it could seem a bit selfish as my belonging didn't help any homeless people or drug addicts but it did help me.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think churches have often become over-equipped with pastoral staff who take over the job of "one-anothering" that we are all supposed to do. Churches tend to foster dependency or co-dependency because doing so creates "leadership" positions for people rising up the ranks to fill, and exercise power. I really don't think the people in our congregation are worse off in the long run than if they had fleets of pastoral staff looking after them. They are learning, by and large, to be autonomous, or, if you prefer, mature in Christ.
I know what you mean but I've also experienced the opposite problem where in the name of making the congregation more independent, and also to free up people for another project, some of the pastoral structures were removed. What was supposed to fill the gap was "one-anothering" - there was even a fancy name and semi-organised program: "the pastoral net". It didn't work very well.
To be fair that could just be the way it was implemented, but I will say this: if a church leadership decides it needs to make its people less dependent, more autonomous etc then they really need to make sure the church gets the whole "one-anothering" thing first. Otherwise a lot of people will fall through the gaps.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Like this! And I don't know how it can be done better.
I think the assummption there is that an ordained minister is required to officiate.
I'd like to think we have a church culture that encourages scattered believers to meet and study the Bible regardless of whether any recognised leadership is present.
For services for which some kind of formal leadership seems inevitable, I'd favour regularity over irregular frequency, and indeed that's how I encourage prison chaplains under my remit to operate in smaller prisons. The nth Sunday (or whatever) in the month is much easier to remember.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
if a church leadership decides it needs to make its people less dependent, more autonomous etc then they really need to make sure the church gets the whole "one-anothering" thing first. Otherwise a lot of people will fall through the gaps.
I've tried both ways of doing it, and my experience is that whatever you do, you'll always find somebody who complains "there's not enough love in the church" and there will always be people who fall through the gaps.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Oh and I'm against "spare" Sundays, because I'm a firm believer in having regular Sunday worship. You never know who is going to turn up.
...
They expect to be able to arrive at the church after months or even years of absence and find us there; and I think that's how it should be.
They'd have a problem in those rural benefices, where you know that if it's the Fourth Sunday of the month (barring August or December) then it will be 11 am Matins at Little Splotbury, or if it's the Third Sunday (assuming there's an "r" in the month), then it will be 6.30 pm Evensong at Great Splotbury etc. etc. Or "as arranged", of course!
Like this! And I don't know how it can be done better.
That's a lot better than the provision in a lot of rural (Catholic) France.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I don't have as many friends as I would like but several of the friends I do have are people I met in church home groups, so I am glad the churches had those groups.
I could have written this so thanks for sharing.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
if a church leadership decides it needs to make its people less dependent, more autonomous etc then they really need to make sure the church gets the whole "one-anothering" thing first. Otherwise a lot of people will fall through the gaps.
I've tried both ways of doing it, and my experience is that whatever you do, you'll always find somebody who complains "there's not enough love in the church" and there will always be people who fall through the gaps.
Yeah some people always complain and no system is perfect.
I think I just wanted to point out that there's a danger with either approach.
Can I ask - do you really think that autonomy is the essence of maturity in Christ? I don't think it is. I think it's helpful to be able to take care of oneself as much as possible but I think it's actually part of God's design that we are dependent on him and inter-dependent on one another. You talked about one-anothering so I suspect you don't entirely disagree but maybe it's about emphasis.
I mean there are people for whom autonomy is never going to be a realistic option. Some of those who can't figure out which sunday in the month church is might be among them.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I have friends who are not one iota involved in community, don't give a cent to the library or food pantry etc.
That doesn't mean unengaged.
They do things through the church. Like, one church has a mobile home on site in which half a dozen otherwise homeless live while being mentored into behaviors that can help them hold a job and take care of a dwelling, and they are given job training and help finding jobs, the goal being they each move on in a year more or less to jobs and homes. It's the kind of long term individual attention a homeless person usually needs to get re-integrated into society. The church had the men's mobile home for several years and then added a mobile home for women. Drugs or alcohol gets a resident kicked out. Those who graduate to their own home and job are celebrated.
The battered women's shelter is the only other place I know of doing this kind of work, but you have to be female with young children to get in, because that's their first priority and that shelter is always full. The church is helping homeless men and women without children.
The same church also has a close relationship with a residential "camp" might be the best word for troubled teens - in a rural residential place, the church doesn't run it but provides a lot of support.
Another church I know set up it's own food pantry open to all because they were distressed at the total stripping of dignity at the main pantry, where you have to give your whole life history and every detail of finances to get a can of beans. The church-run food pantry anyone can walk in and walk out with food. They also give away boxes of fresh product, I think twice a month. Nothing at the official food pantry is fresh. They also do regular trips to Mexico to help genuinely struggling churches with building restoration and run children's day camps in the summer. These are real work trips, not just teen age fun trips with a bit of work tossed in to feel good.
So before fussing about churches where no one is involved in the community, look to see if the church itself is doing something for the community.
A local Baptist church for years ran the soup kitchen alone. A group of churches has finally stepped in to help it expand from one meal a day to three. But one church alone started and carried it for a long time.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
Belle, I think that is really helpful to point out. Sometimes churches spot a need and do something about it. This is brilliant! We should do so more. There is a caveat though - we should be working with the local authorities etc wherever possible to make sure resources are being wisely used and we can (and sometimes should) work with non-christians in this.
I think house groups etc are good things too, it's not that they aren't needed, but that some people need something different, and some need encouragement (and time) to step out and use their God given gifts in the service of God's world.
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
Can I ask - do you really think that autonomy is the essence of maturity in Christ? I don't think it is.
Maybe a better way of putting it would be to say that churches need not to make people dependent on their structures or centre their existence around the amount of support they are giving people.
I'm deliberately over-stating the case here, but I really do think that a lot of what a lot of churches do is more about justifying their own existence than actually doing what's needed, and sometimes it's counter-productive.
So often we inculcate the idea that people need to be helped/discipled/etc. when what they really need is to know they can take charge of their own lives, empowered by the grace of God. quote:
I mean there are people for whom autonomy is never going to be a realistic option. Some of those who can't figure out which sunday in the month church is might be among them.
Yes indeed. But we as a church do not have the resources to address all their perceived needs, and shouldn't try. The poor will always be with us, and becoming a christian does not equal becoming "socially inserted" in an acceptable middle-class way.
Two anecdotes to illustrate:
1) Back when I was a full-time pastor, I realised I was making people over-dependent on me when a dear sister in the Lord (now with Him [breathes a sigh of relief]) who I and/or Mrs Eutychus had seen through just about every situation imaginable, sometimes at physical risk to ourselves, rang me and said "Eutychus, could you pop down to the tobacconists' and get me some fags, I just can't be bothered to get out of bed".
2) Mrs Eutychus' criterion for helping people (which enables her to do an incredible amount of it) is very simply: "if it were my biological brother or sister, would I do this?". This will depend on availability, needfulness, and so on, and is tremendously liberating.
Last week, on this basis, I helped move a guy who very definitely falls into the "can't figure out which day of the month" category. I paid for the van upfront and drove it, and about three people from the church came to help (it was a weekday), so I was dead at the end of it. One fellow leader saw this guy's personal circumstances (read: squalour) for the first time and asked "what can we do to help him?". My answer: nothing. I could help him out in his move (just), and by the grace of God over the years he is making some progress in some areas, but there is no way we could reform him without drowning ourselves in the process.
[ 21. December 2014, 16:38: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
My disparagement of house-groups wasn't on the basis that they don't help people - I'm glad to hear that Moonlitdoor and Paul have both been helped by them -- rather it was an observation that I no longer find them helpful myself - although I have done in the past.
That might say more about me than it does about house-groups.
If people find house-groups helpful, then great ...
On the issue of occasional services at rural Anglican parishes - yes, that's all to do with the availability of an ordained minister (or priest if you prefer) to preside at communion.
That obviously won't be an issue in churches or traditions where this isn't a requirement.
Mind you, there are precedents even in the most sacramental of churches ... I've heard that in rural Greece they'll have people who effectively act as 'stand-ins' for when the priest isn't available to celebrate the eucharist. The elements are consecrated in advance and then shared in the priest's absence with someone or other doing the prayers and readings.
It's not exactly 'lay-presidency' but it sounds like a pragmatic solution for traditions where an ordained person is required to 'officiate' or preside at the eucharist.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
It's tricky if there's not much happening in the local community. Where I live is a former military barracks so is an odd sort of suburb in the middle of nowhere, and the vast majority of people work at the place which used to be the military base - so most community events are actually work events, and not much use for those who don't work there. I would love a weekly home group because where I live there is just nothing to do except scrabble club and toddler singing time etc at the library. There's not any significant homelessness or drug problem because it's a community based around one place of work, more or less, rather than somewhere which has grown into a town organically.
Also as someone of somewhat elastic churchmanship (which I think you will empathise with Gamaliel), I don't want a 'filling station' type of church or a claustrophobic holy huddle church, but a balance. I think a sacramentally-focused Sunday service with a more social/prayer focused midweek group would be a good balance.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes - I agree with you there too, Pomona. It's another of these both/and rather than either/or things ... and as you say, there is some latitude between a 'filling station' approach ('I'll just pull in and top-up on the eucharist ...') on the one hand and a 'everything revolves around church' approach on the other.
There's a balance somewhere.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I don't have as many friends as I would like but several of the friends I do have are people I met in church home groups, so I am glad the churches had those groups.
I know it could seem a bit selfish as my belonging didn't help any homeless people or drug addicts but it did help me.
I think this is important to remember.
There's sometimes an assumption that the 'needy' are mostly outside the church, and that it's the job of the church to go out and 'help' them. But the needy may well be inside the church. And if they're not the church should probably ask why, rather than simply sending good-natured people out to deal with the needy on conveniently secular territory. Of course, there may be no obviously needy folk in a given area surrounding a church. But there are different kinds of need.
It's axiomatic that Christians should do good, but I find the gap between 'the church for the poor' and 'the church of the poor' somewhat problematic. But that's just me, I think.
Going back to the OP, I assume that over-attendance at church activities is almost exclusively a problem for well-attended and organised evangelical churches. The churches I know of are mostly very keen for members to do more at church, not less (and that includes suburban churches). All of them claim to be serving the community as well, though, so I'd agree that it's not one thing or the other.
[ 21. December 2014, 20:39: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
No, I don't think it's just you ...
And the problem with well-attended and organised evangelical churches is that they always want to organise more programmes for people to well attend ...
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
No, I don't think it's just you ...
And the problem with well-attended and organised evangelical churches is that they always want to organise more programmes for people to well attend ...
I know you winked in a smiley way here Gamaliel, but I'm not sure how serious you are.
Anyway, there's actually quite a lot of debate about this in evangelical circles - missional vs attractional church etc. At the root of that, I think, is a different ecclesiology. A modern evangelical theology tends to see the church as a vehicle for the mission of God, a more classical Reformed theology tends to see the mission of God fulfilled in calling a gathered people. (I can only speak for evangelical ecclesiologies, I'm sure there are depths I don't even know about in the Catholic and Orthodox world.)
I work for a church which is much more trying to be the former. My experience is much as Svitlana has described. Especially where people are young Christians, they struggle to do the "one anothering" without quite regular and structured activities, heavily invested in by older Christians. Plus, people work irregular hours - so Euty's model of "one mid week meeting" wouldn't work for us as so many couldn't make it on that one evening regularly. You end up putting on many things to give people options - and there are always those who attend everything. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Which is all, I guess, to say that this issue is somewhat more complex than it seems. It's theological as well as practical, and the practicalities are complicated.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Absolutely, Leprechaun ... which is one of the reasons why I wanted a thread to debate this stuff ... as I'm not sure there is one single, catch-all solution.
The smiley was mischievous of me but my point about large evangelical churches perpetuating a kind of 'meetings for the sake of meetings' culture isn't that wide of the mark in some instances.
I think we can all think of instances where programme follows programme, activity follows activity until the people who are involved with such churches have little time for anything else.
I would suggest that this is just as debilitating for developing a well-rounded spirituality and form of discipleship(if we can put it that way) than having a tiny group of people trying to keep a struggling church's head above water.
There is a balance, of course, and I'm sure you're right that Eutychus's model wouldn't necessarily work elsewhere.
Somebody upthread mentioned the need for close and regular fellowship for new converts and young Christians - and I think that's entirely appropriate but needs handling carefully.
It can become self-perpetuating with people almost 'locked in' to support systems that they have outgrown or no longer require to the same extent.
How to discern when this takes place and what to do about it is where the difficulties lie.
In my experience, those among the 'new churches' who recognised this problem and tried to 'deconstruct' themselves in order to alleviate it were trying to do the right thing - but in the wrong way. They ended up dissipating and I know of more than one instance of churches which went down that route only to disintegrate in the process.
I can't speak for the RCs and the Orthodox but what seems to happen there - from what I can see - is that you get a broad periphery who attend at high-days and holidays and a core of committed people who are regular at services and who attend study groups or go on the pilgrimages and conferences, retreats and so on.
So there's everything there from what might be considered shallow nominalism through to uncharted depths of profound spirituality -- and everything you can imagine inbetween.
In some ways, there are analogies and parallels that can be drawn from the way these things work out in Protestant circles - whether evangelical or otherwise - only with different systems, paraphernalia and outward manifestations - if I can put it that way.
The thing I'm picking up from my RC contacts these days is that since Vatican II (and they are generally appreciative of most of its reforms), there has been a decline in what you might call 'domestic piety' - ie. family rosaries, mothers making the sign of the cross over their children's heads at night and so on ... all things which (however much more Puritanical Prots might disparage them) did embed a sense of continuity and reinforce belonging and belief.
They feel that some RC parishes have become rather 'mainstream Protestant' in feel and tone - but without the corresponding cues, glue and modus operandi that Protestants have developed over the years - so they can be rather rudderless - losing some of their 'domestic' traditions and not yet in a position to have developed the more 'congregational' traditions that Protestants are more used to.
I find that an interesting observation.
Coming back to your points though - yes, I understand the difference you are highlighting between modern evangelical ecclesiologies that see the church as a vehicle for mission rather than the classic Reformed model.
I'm wondering whether both these models need to operate side-by-side ...
I don't disagree nor disparage the contemporary emphasis on the church as the vehicle for mission - far from it. However, a down-side of that approach is that many churches appear to behave as if this is the only way to go - and they absorb more and more and more of their congregation's efforts and energies.
I sometimes wonder whether our vicar even understands that people have a life outside of church - and that there is weight, value and legitimacy in getting involved with other things that don't necessarily fit so neatly into his own, highly church-based approach.
But yes, I completely agree with you that these issues are more complex than they might seem - for all the reasons you've listed - and that there are theological as well as practical issues to take into account.
I s'pose I am interested in the more 'catholic' approaches as they offer a kind of dip-in/dip-out model that don't necessarily rely on the kind of intensity of involvement and resources that are required by the kind of nurturing that necessarily takes place in a more 'conversionist' model.
However, there are still resource implications of another kind ... and the onus can fall unhealthily on clergy who are spread too thinly or else seen as one-stop shop gurus.
There has to be some kind of balance somewhere.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
... It's axiomatic that Christians should do good, but I find the gap between 'the church for the poor' and 'the church of the poor' somewhat problematic. But that's just me, I think. ...
No, I don't think it is. I think you're onto something important there SvetlanaV2.
There's a similar comment made of South America. Engaged Catholic priests all went in for Jesus the Marxist, base communities etc, seeking to be the church for the poor, but meanwhile the poor went off and became Pentecostals.
Meanwhile, on the more general topic of the thread, a key part of our calling is to worship God, 'the Father seeketh such to worship him'. If that worship isn't exciting people to live out the Christian life, that may be a sign that there's something missing, but it certainly isn't a sign that there should be less of it.
I'm sure that if we all decided we weren't going to met on Sunday so we could be 'released' (grrr word) to do something else, for most of us that would be being released to stay in bed - AND like it or not, IMHO that would be an entirely wholesome reaction.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Apologies for the long post ... my New Year's Resolution will be to edit them ...
Meanwhile, thanks for the comments on this thread so far. Food for thought from all directions.
As the church ministers and clergy and various choristers and so on are likely to have a service-heavy schedule over the Christmas period - and as I've got things to do before family join us for the festivities ... may I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
I'll be away from Ship until after Christmas.
Best wishes and Christmas greetings to all.
Gamaliel
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Just two little factoids from Angels and Demons by Michael Patella, both on page 76.
"The great abbey of Cluny during the eleventh and twelfth centuries... constructed a rotation so that there was a choir in the church singing psalms and other prayers twenty-four hours a day."
"Catholic Relief Services has more offices in more countries and distributes more aid to trouble spots the world over than does the United Nations."
Unrelated? The author is reflecting on what the vertical and horizontal arms of the cross mean in the life of the Church.
[ 22. December 2014, 21:31: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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