Ship of Fools: Cemeteries, funerals, memorials, and getting along

Thread: Cemeteries, funerals, memorials, and getting along Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

This thread is for discussion of cemeteries and funeral practices (general, multi-faith, multi-cultural...), how much they matter, and how to get along when there's a clash of preferences, of beliefs, and of the deceased's wishes vs. those of loved ones, clergy, and officials.

(Sparked by Styx discussion of a closed Purg thread about alleged clashes between Roma/Gypsies and Muslims at a shared cemetery.)

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Just to get the thread's motor started, a couple of questions:

--Is it important for people of a particular belief to be buried/scattered/etc. in the same place?

--If the deceased's requests are extreme (e.g., being buried in their car), should they be followed?

--What if a person dies among people who believe very differently, and there are no others of their beliefs around? Should the local people make a strong effort to follow the person's beliefs, if they can find out about them? Should they simply handle the death as they would one of their own?

--Should two people who hated each other (or each other's type) in life be buried next to each other?

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Just to get the thread's motor started, a couple of questions:

1--Is it important for people of a particular belief to be buried/scattered/etc. in the same place?

That's up to (followers of) the particular belief to decide (although see 2).

quote:

2--If the deceased's requests are extreme (e.g., being buried in their car), should they be followed?

No idea, or even how we decide what extreme is.
Which is rather bad.

quote:

3--What if a person dies among people who believe very differently, and there are no others of their beliefs around? Should the local people make a strong effort to follow the person's beliefs, if they can find out about them? Should they simply handle the death as they would one of their own?

Personally, in a 'do as to others', I'd like (them) to make a strong effort to find out. And if things can be done without clashing definitely try to follow. But part of that would be sincerity and the buryer able to believe it (I'd rather not have someone intentionally do stuff they think would send me to hell).
But things would get complex quickly

quote:

--Should two people who hated each other (or each other's type) in life be buried next to each other?

Depends what we think of them.

[ 12. February 2015, 07:03: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

In all my years of ministry (27) the only argument I came across was a disagreement between brother and sister about whether Dad should be buried or cremated.

Sister, who lived in the same town as Dad and visited him often, said that Dad wanted burial; Brother, who lived miles and miles away, had travelled throughout his ministry as a minister, and, to my knowledge hardly visited his Dad, insisted on cremation.

He got his way and the sister was upset.

It all goes to show: put it in your funeral plan. Leave a clear instruction where it can be found. Putting it in your will is insufficient because the will isn't looked at until after all the funeral arrangements have been made and carried out.

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :

Even if you request something there is no guarantee you get it. A close relative died recently and the family requested a C of E minister to take the funeral. The person that the funeral directors booked had 'rev' in their email address but it was only when the family met her they got suspicious and it turns out she is an independent funeral celebrant and not a licenced C of E minister as requested. As far as we know she is not a minister in any Christian church or congregation.

So the celebrant was stood down, a C of E priest contacted and the family got the funeral they requested. Most families wouldn't have checked that the rev the funeral directors send them actually is one.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Of course, this idea of wrestling with the 'ownership' of dead bodies has a long pedigree.

In the town where I am, the municipal cemetery has been full for more than 30 years - due to a spike in population around 100 years ago - so we have an interesting relic of death preserved.

And we see that Jews were excluded from the main cemetery (they had their own behind a tall wall opposite the main gate) and the Christian denominations each had their own gate and chapel to enter the cemetery. I have not been able to establish whether there was any division between believers in the main cemetery, but I doubt it.

We also have the history of groups who were excluded - including Quakers - and the sense of separation of those who died poor (in the workhouse) or prisoner and were buried in unmarked graves.

What does this all tell us? I think it says that the idea of separation in burial has a fairly long cultural history even where the burial provision was supplied by the municipality.

I am not so sure it is so weird.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Side point: I had not appreciated that there was such an 'industry' in funeral celebrants: http://funeralcelebrants.org.uk/about-celebrants

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Hm. This guy is the president of that org. Easy to see why funeral directors might see that freelance 'priests' of this ilk are Anglican..

http://www.gscallander.com/

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

There are independent wedding celebrants, too. And you can get an instant, online ordination through something like the Universal Life Church. (Despite what you might think, IIRC, ULC doesn't simply provide a certificate. They help people learn about pastoral care, etc.) I've heard of people with that kind of ordination doing weddings; not sure about funerals.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

The American Association of Retired Persons (AARP) has an article on unusual funeral requests.

I want to be cremated and scattered at sea, but I do kind of like the memorial reef idea.

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

We have a long-running series of funereal feuds going on locally between Muslims and Christians who usually have to share the same après-vie facilities. The latest one was to orient all the plots facing North East in the Muslim tradition, regardless of the religious beliefs of the occupant. Previous spats have included ostentatious headstones/displays/kitsch art installations and not wanting to pay extra for concrete vaulting or out of hours burials required by some religions.

I still don't know why we can't be buried standing up in a simple tube. It would cut down on the amount of space required, allow for any orientation necessary, make vaulting easy to do with existing concrete pipes, make digging a synch with a simple post drill and allow me to install a doner kebab spit so I could turn in my grave more easily.

[ 12. February 2015, 08:43: Message edited by: Bob Two-Owls ]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

It all goes to show: put it in your funeral plan. Leave a clear instruction where it can be found. Putting it in your will is insufficient because the will isn't looked at until after all the funeral arrangements have been made and carried out.

Good advice.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

It all goes to show: put it in your funeral plan. Leave a clear instruction where it can be found. Putting it in your will is insufficient because the will isn't looked at until after all the funeral arrangements have been made and carried out.
Good advice.

And make sure you tell people about it! My mother wished to be buried at the local church; she did put it in her will but we all knew, anyway. So did the Vicar.

All that is so much better than trying to second-guess the presumed wishes of the deceased. [But some families simply refuse to talk about death - perhaps they think that doing so attracts the Grim Reaper's attention].

[ 12. February 2015, 09:12: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

I think the biggest issue is that funerals are emotive. And, the family are not going to be in the best emotional state to handle people when they find that their wishes conflict with some local regulations. Which is another reason to organise things in advance, make sure that what you want for your funeral is possible before you write down your instructions for how you'll be buried. Don't leave it to your bereaved relatives to organise a funeral meeting impossible instructions.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Whilst I joke that if anyone turns up in a really smart black suit at my funeral I'll haunt the bugger, I really can't imagine giving a flying one about what happens to me after I'm dead. You can stick me in the back of a transit and drop me in the canal for all I care. I'll be dead.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
And we see that Jews were excluded from the main cemetery (they had their own behind a tall wall opposite the main gate) and the Christian denominations each had their own gate and chapel to enter the cemetery.

It can be quite astonishing to see a Jewish cemetery.

Quite possibly it can be astonishing to a person from a young country like mine (in European terms, anyway) to see any really old cemetery, (the Freedom Trail in Boston has a couple), but the Jewish cemetery in Prague is burned in my memory. Gravestone upon gravestone crowded together, falling on one another, because this was the only plot of land they had and there was no prospect of another.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

As with many things in life, what should happen and what will happen are often different.

I was in a chorus that sang free concerts in the community and also sang at members' funerals; the chorus has disbanded due to the leader's age, will a chorus sing at his funeral? It would be fitting but there's no chorus to sing.

A friend is a Christian, the family are all atheists and uncomfortable with mention of God. Will he have a church funeral? Not likely.

A neighbor has no immediate family, will she have a funeral at all? Why would distant cousins go to the expense of flying to her city to make arrangements for a funeral - and who but family has the motivation to do that work and expense?

Unless there is a local family who all agree what the deceased would want and can afford the time and money to make it happen, disposal will reflect the interests of the survivors. Hasn't it always been that way?

Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :

Once last year I was playing the organ at the end of the service and an elderly lady came and stood next to me. When I finished the piece, she said, "Could you write down the name of that music, please? I'm planning my funeral and I want someone to play that at the end."
She's still alive and attending church, by the way. Though she is well over 90.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

I was in a chorus that sang free concerts in the community and also sang at members' funerals; the chorus has disbanded due to the leader's age, will a chorus sing at his funeral? It would be fitting but there's no chorus to sing.

I was in a church chorus/choir that often sang at funerals, but that had to disband for several reasons, including the leader's illness. I think there's often a problem in that church small groups, which is that continuity planning seems not to work out very well.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I was in a chorus that sang free concerts in the community and also sang at members' funerals; the chorus has disbanded due to the leader's age, will a chorus sing at his funeral? It would be fitting but there's no chorus to sing.
I was in a church chorus/choir that often sang at funerals, but that had to disband for several reasons, including the leader's illness. I think there's often a problem in that church small groups, which is that continuity planning seems not to work out very well.

Leading music is a skill of it's own. So is selecting music appropriate for the group size and voices.

But I think you are right, we don't usually do anything to train choir members how to temporarily fill in leading, nor how to find or attract a new leader. If the leader is late, everyone waits instead of getting to work on the music or warmups without him. Unless maybe it's a big enough group to have section leaders?

I've never been in a church choir that sang for funerals! Except a clergy funeral once.

Posted by Cathscats (# 17827) on :

I had a member phone me this week to check the hymn numbers for his and his wife's funeral plans. It reminded me of the minister I worked with once as an intern who gave every church member a form to fill out with their ideas about their funerals. He then kept them on file in his office, and they could ask to see theirs and make changes at any point. Which is a good idea if the deceased is the most important person when planning a funeral. Sometimes I think that it is the next of kin or the best friend (families always undervalue the friends, or nearly always) who is most important.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

cathscats--

I take your point; but, sometimes, it can help a person be less scared of death if they can specify the arrangements.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cathscats:
I had a member phone me this week to check the hymn numbers for his and his wife's funeral plans. It reminded me of the minister I worked with once as an intern who gave every church member a form to fill out with their ideas about their funerals. He then kept them on file in his office, and they could ask to see theirs and make changes at any point. Which is a good idea if the deceased is the most important person when planning a funeral. Sometimes I think that it is the next of kin or the best friend (families always undervalue the friends, or nearly always) who is most important.

For those who have no family (or no interested family), it's brilliant. But it needs also discussion of costs. And a list of who should be notified. I have a neighbor who is an only child orphan. She has cousins, somewhere.

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
We have a long-running series of funereal feuds going on locally between Muslims and Christians who usually have to share the same après-vie facilities. The latest one was to orient all the plots facing North East in the Muslim tradition, regardless of the religious beliefs of the occupant. Previous spats have included ostentatious headstones/displays/kitsch art installations and not wanting to pay extra for concrete vaulting or out of hours burials required by some religions.

I'm not sure why this is any different to all plots facing East, as they do in most cemeteries. You can't mix different orientations in the same section: without sullying my browser by visiting the Telegraph site (of course, it could be the Derby Evening Telegraph, but why take the risk? [Biased]

), if the majority of burials (or the majority of those who express a preference) want a burial facing Mecca, wouldn't you expect the authorities to reflect that?

(By the way, wouldn't Mecca be in a south-east direction from most of the UK?)

quote:
I still don't know why we can't be buried standing up in a simple tube. It would cut down on the amount of space required, allow for any orientation necessary, make vaulting easy to do with existing concrete pipes, make digging a synch with a simple post drill and allow me to install a doner kebab spit so I could turn in my grave more easily.

Trouble is, I think you would need 12 foot deep holes, so that the top of the body would still be 6 foot below the surface. It would also make a right mess of future archaeological investigation as all the bones would fall into a heap at the bottom of the hole. That said, the spit mechanism could come with a surface winder so that people could come and make sure you're rotating when something annoying happens. On a bad day, they could attach a motor so you could reach 3600rpm!

Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :

Beloved husband used to work for the local council and one of his work collegues was 'the funeral guy'. Basically any death in a council property of someone with no relatives findable would be cremated at the council's expense. Basic funeral service with a rent-a-vic but, and this is important, the funeral guy would always go to it. No-one in Guildford who died in social housing had a totally empty chapel at their cremation.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

Thank you TessaB, that's a lovely story. Ignoring the provocations of newspapers looking for a fight, it would seem that the basic urge is to provide what the dying want for their funeral, secondarily what their family and relatives want and finally what doesn't annoy the family of the neighbors. It is to be expected that a mixed use cemetery will have occasional conflicts between neighbors and those who try to make everyone doe it according to the religion of the controller.

If people want their plots in a particular orientation you have the choice of giving them a separate section all aligned or create a great circle. [Smile]

The usual problem is that there isn't enough money to insulate everyone in s world of their own.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

In Amsterdam, there's a city program that puts together respectful funerals for people who have no one else to do it. One of the men involved writes a poem for each person.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

One of my former colleagues, upon retirement, was recruited into a local (Gatineau, Québec, across the river from Ottawa) group/ sodality whose function it was to attend funerals of homeless or solitary people. He happened to be at liberty to attend them on short notice and was always speeding off to a funeral home. Initially they had arranged for a requiem for each of them, but now did a weekly memorial mass. As several of the other retirees in the group spend their winters in warmer climes (it's -25°C today, not counting wind chill) and as the homeless die off quite regularly in January and February, he is extra busy.

He tells me that the Starbucks near one of the homes now comps him his coffee.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Mecca is South East, but bodies are placed, on their sides, facing towards it, thus the grave would be orientated North East.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Yesterday I attended the funeral of my uncle. It was 'excellent'.
Anyway, after the service the family made their way to the crematorium for the brief committal.

Two things stuck in my mind.

Firstly the vicar used the 'wrong' words for the committal. This was a cremation but he said 'earth to earth, dust to dust (and in this context, the very unfortunate) ashes to ashes'. In my tradition, those words are only used for an interment. At a cremation we commit 'his body to the elements in the certainty of, etc...'

Anyway, that wasn't the thing that really perturbed me.

After the committal service the family and friends - maybe about 60 of us - gathered outside the crematorium chapel which was the size and design of a small Gothic church with a central tower. As we were chatting I looked up and to my absolute horror, saw dark grey smoke begin to billow out from the tower which was, of course, the chimney.

Oh my God, I thought, I hope his widow doesn't look up!! The smoke was obviously the first stage of the combustion of my uncles's coffin, etc, and after 3 or 4 belches, subsided; but what an horrific sight! Surely to goodness they might have found some technology that restricts the smoke from doing that above the heads of the mourners.

It occurred to me that unless the crematorium staff actually go outside and look up, or unless they do visual checks during maintenance, they are not going to know that the smoke is thick and dark and in full view of the mourners.

Do other shipmates see this at all?
Is there a concern or am I being over-sensitive?

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

What is the problem. Mudfrog?

The widow chose cremation: she must know that involves the body being burned and is old enough to realise that burning things can result in smoke.

Bodies need to be disposed of and in the UK this usually involves either burial or fire: fire is quicker - the body is reduced to bone and ash within a couple of hours - but can have the downside of releasing dioxins, albeit at very low levels, and some heavy metals from dental filling and other medical devices.

Burial takes far longer because we rely on the action of bacteria, the enzymes that naturally occur in the body and bacteria. Without a coffin a body takes roughly 12-15 years to decompose but encasing it in wood lengthens the process so it takes about 4 times as long.

Taking your squeamishness, we'd never have people walking through churchyards unless there were no molehills and no visible signs of worms. Be grateful we don't have 'sky burial'!

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Have you lost anyone recently? Are you a minister? (I hope not, with your evident lack of grace). Do you have any compassion at all? Had I the time and if I could give a fuck about debating with you and your callous disregard for the grief of a 57 year old widow - who just happens to be my aunt, the deceased being my 60 year old uncle who died unexpectedly from 7 heart attacks in 2 days, I'd have called you to hell.

[ 07. March 2015, 17:49: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

hosting/

Mudfrog, announcing an intent not to call to Hell in inflammatory language does not belong in Purgatory, regardless of the circumstances. Either take it to Hell directly or keep your counsel.

/hosting

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Mudfrog: the smoke should not have happened.

According to the Statutory Regulations, "The aim should be to prevent any visible airborne and odorous emissions from any part of the process, as perceived by the regulator. This aim includes all sites regardless of location ... Emissions from cremations should in normal operation be free from visible smoke".

Posted by Offeiriad (# 14031) on :

Mudfrog, I'm with you on this. I have seen similar, and as far as I'm concerned there is no reason why a well-run, well maintained cremator should belch smoke in that way.

There is no excuse for this to happen, and I know from personal experience how unnecessarily distressing it can be for relatives.

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

Mudfrog re the words. If it was a CofE funeral then they are the correct words for the committal even at the crematorium.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Mudfrog re the words. If it was a CofE funeral then they are the correct words for the committal even at the crematorium.

Fair enough. I don't go to many CofE services.
I do prefer ours though ('the elements').

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I'm sorry about your loss, Mudfrog, and the smoke. That would be really disturbing.

(Possibly TMI about cremation details:)
.
.
.

I want to be cremated and scattered at sea. In my heart, what I really want is a full, ritual cremation, outdoors--like a Hindu ceremony, or a Viking burning boat. The smoke would be an issue, but at least attendees would expect it. AIUI, Hindu cremations include herbs and flowers and such, which would affect the smoke--hopefully, for the better.

(End TMI.)

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Mudfrog re the words. If it was a CofE funeral then they are the correct words for the committal even at the crematorium.

It looks like we've copied the phrase from the Roman Catholic order of committal.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
I still don't know why we can't be buried standing up in a simple tube.

Where we lived in West Africa, people were traditionally buried sitting down, which meant a sort of L-shaped grave (i.e. there had to a space for the legs and feet to go).

Coffins were not used, but bodies were wrapped in large cloths - the number and richness thereof indicating the status sand wealth of the deceased. This could be problematic as people would buy, over the years, a stash of cloths which they would take to funerals - that could represent a large outlay for poorer people.

Professing Christians tended to be buried in the "European" way, in coffins, as there was a feeling that the traditional way had too many connotations which pagan funeral rites. [I leave it to others to judge whether this was right or wrong].

[ 08. March 2015, 07:15: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Mudfrog

No, I am not a minister: I grew up in a parsonage house (so next to a churchyard) and we learned the 'facts of death' as we grew up. And we were brought up to believe

quote:
...in sure and certain hope of the Resurrection to eternal life, through our Lord Jesus Christ ... blessed are the dead which die in the Lord

I had to work damned hard to keep that thought in mind just over two years ago when my very-much loved other half died with no warning whatsoever; I was 55, our children were about to take their A levels.

I can tell you it is bloody hard telling your children their parent has died, sorting out a funeral without anyone to support you, having to be strong for your children, watching the coffin containing the body of your soul-mate disappear at the crematorium, and then going back to the Wake to thank people for coming. But you do it because you have to - not all of us have the luxury of nephews, nieces or other family to share the burden.

If you want to take me to hell - fine, feel free; I don't retract one word of what I said.

It is a British disease that we don't acknowledge the truth about things that make us feel uncomfortable - we are the world champions of euphemism (although some might call it hypocrisy).

Everyone dies and there is a need to respectfully dispose of our earthly body. BUT YOUR LOVED ONE ISN'T IN THE COFFIN - the thing that made your uncle 'him' went when the breath left his body. And if your aunt was with him when he died she will have realised that. And maybe when you are older, and perhaps are holding the hand of someone you love as they breathe their last, you too may realise that the soul/personality is separate from the body and goes when we stop breathing.

Your aunt had already said goodbye to the man she married - the funeral is just housekeeping and outward ceremony.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

I would like to apologise to you for using the F word in my post. I was very angry when I wrote it and had this been Facebook I would have edited the post heavily.

I acknowledge your own loss and hardship and sympathise with you.

However telling people like it is is not always the best thing to do. My family are not particularly religious, though my Aunt and Uncle seem to have discovered faith in the last few months.

I still stand by my complaint that the black smoke of my uncle's burning coffin and body should not have been visible to a family who 5 minutes before had witnessed the often-harrowing sight of curtains being closed. From a pastoral point of view such an unpleasant sight is simply not acceptable.

I sincerely hope that in real life, using facial expressions and tone of voice, you come across as more gracious and caring. To offer a simple practical and clinical response to death and bereavement is not what is required. Offering off-pat Bible verses, as if that makes everything OK, is also not enough.

I hope when your children cut their knees you rushed to comfort them rather than giving them a lecture on the coagulation process of the blood that is flowing from their cuts, telling them that it's to be expected and they'll get over it.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Do other shipmates see this at all?
Is there a concern or am I being over-sensitive?

Yes - the crem. where I usually officiate often has visible smoke,depending on the direction of the wind.

I perceive that most of the bereaved are concerned about other things such as, do the ashes get mixed up with somebody else?

I spent an afternoon 'downstairs' so I have watched the whole process and this is very useful for reassuring people about what goes on.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Mudfrog

Any smoke visible 5 minutes after the end of the service for your uncle would not have been from the cremation of your relative.

The process of checking paperwork takes at least 5 minutes before a coffin can be placed into a cremator.

A modern cremator discharges whatever smoke is produced (and likely to be very little) into a second chamber where it is re-ignited, usually mixed with water, so that any minute particles are trapped and only steam is left to come out of the chimney. This process will begin to happen approximately 30 minutes after the body is placed in the cremator.

Your comment about the curtains only confirms my belief that they are a vile thing: IMO it is better to watch the catafalque with the coffin either sinking through the floor or going through the doors at the back, rather than have the needless theatricality of curtains (often accompanied by wholly inappropriate muzak). After all, we don't have screens around a grave when a coffin is lowered into the earth, so why have curtains?

To the rest of your most recent post:

quote:
From a pastoral point of view such an unpleasant sight is simply not acceptable.

And your pastoral experience is? I'd suggest it might be less than extensive, otherwise you'd realise that your aunt, having just been to her spouse's funeral, would have neither noticed nor cared about any vapour or smoke - the death of a partner concentrates the mind wonderfully on what really matters in life.

quote:
I sincerely hope that in real life, using facial expressions and tone of voice, you come across as more gracious and caring. To offer a simple practical and clinical response to death and bereavement is not what is required.

I was not offering a clinical response - you expressed a view about the sight of vapour at a crematorium immediately after your uncle's service and YOU asked if shipmates had a view or thought you were being over-sensitive; please don't solicit a view if you really only want your own validating.

Don't lecture me about what you presume to be my response to personal bereavement - which, dare I say, may well be rather more recent and life-changing than yours.

quote:
Offering off-pat Bible verses, as if that makes everything OK, is also not enough.

I'd never suggest it was - which is why I did no such thing. Don't look now but your ignorance is showing: the extract was from the Commendation in the Book of Common Prayer and the short prayer that follows.

quote:
I hope when your children cut their knees you rushed to comfort them rather than giving them a lecture on the coagulation process of the blood that is flowing from their cuts, telling them that it's to be expected and they'll get over it.

How dare you.
I'd like to think you're very young - I can't think of any other explanation for such rudeness. If my children were ever so crass as to express themselves to a stranger in those terms I'd be mortified - and horrified if they'd done it once past the age of discretion.

FYI I didn't 'lose' anyone - they died. Loss implies carelessness - we valued each other far too much to heedlessly 'lose' each other. Again, perhaps when you are older you may appreciate the difference.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

L'organist:

quote:
I was not offering a clinical response - you expressed a view about the sight of vapour at a crematorium immediately after your uncle's service and YOU asked if shipmates had a view or thought you were being over-sensitive; please don't solicit a view if you really only want your own validating.

She's definitely got you there, Mudfrog.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

My pastoral experience is 27 years as a Salvation Army officer who has done a heck of a lot of bereavement visits and funeral services, both for members and non-members. I have officiated at burials and I have have officiated at cremations.

I have listened to questions, watched grief take hold of people, seen stoicism, great faith and abject despair. I have sometimes been moved to tears whilst even conducting a service because of the sorrow of those sitting in front of me.

It is because of my experience and any sense of compassion that I feel I might have, that I would want to protect a person who has been bereaved from the shocking sight of black smoke rising from a crematorium chimney minutes after the service has ended.

Why do I assume that the smoke was related to our funeral? For the simple reason that there was no funeral there before my uncle's. And in any case, it would the the natural first assumption of anyone - especially the bereaved - that the smoke is linked to their loved one.

I am still disturbed at the "Who cares if there's smoke? He's dead!" attitude.

Our theology highlights compassion, it does not give us the right to say we needn't be sensitive about others' feelings.

[ 08. March 2015, 15:07: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
.. dark grey smoke begin to billow out from the tower which was, of course, the chimney.

What l'Organist said about the timing.

Professionally, I would suggest raising a complaint to the Operator (be it a Local Authority or private enterprise) and see what kind of response you receive. They should all have a formal complaints procedure. No need to involve the widow - you know what you saw. Search here against the postcode of the crem. Typically, the operator is required to ensure:

quote:
1.7 All emissions in normal operation shall be free from visible smoke and in any case shall not exceed the equivalent of Ringelmann Shade 1 as described in British Standard BS 2742:1969.
1.8 All releases to air, other condensed water vapour, shall be free from visible emissions. All emissions to air shall be free from droplets

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

hosting/

It must be because I come from a non-liturgical tradition that I missed the fact this is obviously the Blessed Sunday of Admin Referrals.

God knows if we want to make this a pissing contest about personal grief, experiences of death, bodies, and crematoria, I reckon I'm as well-placed as either of you and who knows who else here could outdo any of us.

Mudfrog, you have already been told that if you want to get personal, take it to Hell.

L'Organist, that applies to you too.

And to everyone else tempted to join in also.

/hosting

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Your comment about the curtains only confirms my belief that they are a vile thing: IMO it is better to watch the catafalque with the coffin either sinking through the floor or going through the doors at the back, rather than have the needless theatricality of curtains (often accompanied by wholly inappropriate muzak). After all, we don't have screens around a grave when a coffin is lowered into the earth, so why have curtains?

All but one of the funerals I've been to, the graveyard policy was no one gets to watch the coffin lowered. Survivors are to leave after the graveside service with the coffin still on the grass next to the hole.

My Dad refused to leave at the burial of his MIL, there was an argument, he said it's important for closure, they finally gave in and said OK but you have to stay 5 yards away and be silent, the grave workers don't like to be watched.

At his cremation they wanted us to leave with the urn in the hole but the hole not covered. We refused, again they said we had to stay at a distance and not talk.

At a friend's funeral we all left with the casket on a trolley beside the hole. It felt wrong, it still feels wrong years later. Different cemeteries.

The only funeral where we got to drop a handful or shovel of dirt on the casket in the hole was Jewish. I want a Jewish style burial - simple casket, participatory for any who want to participate. Lots of cemeteries seem opposed.

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Yesterday I attended the funeral of my uncle. It was 'excellent'.
Anyway, after the service the family made their way to the crematorium for the brief committal.

Two things stuck in my mind.

Firstly the vicar used the 'wrong' words for the committal. ...

As we were chatting I looked up and to my absolute horror, saw dark grey smoke begin to billow out from the tower which was, of course, the chimney.

...

Do other shipmates see this at all?
Is there a concern or am I being over-sensitive?

I think that we obsess about the details of funerals, etc. because that is the only aspect of death that is within our control. There's also a sense that this is the "last chance" to interact with the deceased (which is wrong anyway, from a Christian POV.) Add in grief, and it's natural to get angry about the wrong words or the wrong flowers or whatever. This is just humans working though anger, denial and bargaining on the way to depression and acceptance.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

That's interesting, Belle Ringer, maybe it's a pond thing. What I've seen happen here is that the coffin gets lowered, whereupon - if they wish - some of the relatives scoop up a handful of soil and throw it in on top of the coffin as a symbolic covering. They then leave for the gravediggers to continue their job.

It's not something I would personally like to do, but I guess it gives some people a sense of closure.

Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :

Golden Key mentioned a Viking boat burning funeral.
One evening a few years ago I met a lady whose father had been cremated. She was just taking a few minutes out of the pub where they were having the wake. She told me that her father had been the first person to start a canoe hire business on the River Wye. When they collected the ashes from the crematorium, they took them down to the river, where they put the ashes in a miniature canoe and set it adrift "and he's still going down to the sea," she said.
I thought that was a lovely way to see a loved one off.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I've seen the "leave the coffin beside the grave and walk away" thing, and I've seen the other extreme--one horrifying one where the cemetery workers showed up with a major yellow earthmoving monster machine and starting roaring around shoving dirt into the hole while dozens of mourners hadn't made it to the cars yet! Seriously, it looked like a mechanical rodeo.

I had to comfort the dead man's daughter on that occasion as she was freaking out. Give me a couple guys with a hand shovel any time.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

The only funeral where we got to drop a handful or shovel of dirt on the casket in the hole was Jewish. I want a Jewish style burial - simple casket, participatory for any who want to participate. Lots of cemeteries seem opposed.

And no messing about with embalming fluid. I'll be dead. My body will either be burned to ash, or put in the ground to decay. It doesn't need preservatives.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I'd back-up on what Qoheleth said: check with the local authority that the operator is keeping within the rules.

There is starting to be a problem because more people are putting keepsakes into coffins - and unless they are known about and either are easily combustible or are removed before cremation these can cause problems - and that's before you get onto things like unknown cardiac pacemakers. For example, a home counties crematorium recently had a cremator put out of action by the explosion of a coffin that was later discovered to contain an early mobile telephone and battery pack.

You may also find that your local crematorium starts to cremate at 8am - because with the time taken for full disposal it can be that those with a ceremony at 4 or 4.30pm they aren't cremated until the next morning. Its all perfectly OK and above board: cremation takes about 2½ hours and so a busy crematorium - even with 3 or 4 cremators - is going to experience delays.

Apologies Eutychus - I was (still am) offended at being accused of callousness or indifference.

Mudfrog: apologies but perhaps you were (are?) less than detached in this instance because of your personal emotional involvement?

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The only funeral where we got to drop a handful or shovel of dirt on the casket in the hole was Jewish.

I've done that in the context of several Christian funerals, including my nephew and my father. The funeral directors even have a special box of almost-dry peat ready. But as symbolism goes, it provides a very strong post-funeral salve against believing they aren't really dead.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The only funeral where we got to drop a handful or shovel of dirt on the casket in the hole was Jewish.

I've done that in the context of several Christian funerals, including my nephew and my father. The funeral directors even have a special box of almost-dry peat ready. But as symbolism goes, it provides a very strong post-funeral salve against believing they aren't really dead.

This has happened at every burial at which I have officiated.

The coffin is carried to the grave and placed on poles across the hole, then as the mourners gather, the supports are removed and the coffin is lowered on straps until it rests at the bottom. Sometimes I've seen the 'lowering party' include one of two of the mourners The undertakers then withdraw, sometimes the family throw flowers down onto the coffin and I step forward to read the committal service. When that is finished, the undertaker offers the already-mentioned box of earth and everyone who wishes, drops a handful onto the coffin before walking a way again.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

hosting/

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Apologies Eutychus - I was (still am) offended at being accused of callousness or indifference.

Mudfrog: apologies but perhaps you were (are?) less than detached in this instance because of your personal emotional involvement?

Your (qualified) apology is noted: but so is your continued attempt to thrash out this bone of contention on this thread.

To spell it out, if Mudfrog was playing with Commandment 3, you are infringing Commandment 4:

quote:
If you must get personal, take it to Hell

If you get into a personality conflict with other shipmates, you have two simple choices: end the argument or take it to Hell.

If you want to pursue this anywhere on the boards, your only option is and always has been Hell.

If you want to dispute this host ruling, you can do so in the Styx.

Any more posts from anyone here referring back to this spat will be kicked adminwards forthwith.

/hosting

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The only funeral where we got to drop a handful or shovel of dirt on the casket in the hole was Jewish.

I've done that in the context of several Christian funerals, including my nephew and my father. The funeral directors even have a special box of almost-dry peat ready. But as symbolism goes, it provides a very strong post-funeral salve against believing they aren't really dead.

In my experience, it's a very regional thing. In some places, it's a given. In other places, it's never done.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
This has happened at every burial at which I have officiated.

The coffin is carried to the grave and placed on poles across the hole, then as the mourners gather, the supports are removed and the coffin is lowered on straps until it rests at the bottom. Sometimes I've seen the 'lowering party' include one of two of the mourners The undertakers then withdraw, sometimes the family throw flowers down onto the coffin and I step forward to read the committal service. When that is finished, the undertaker offers the already-mentioned box of earth and everyone who wishes, drops a handful onto the coffin before walking a way again.

That's the kind of procedure I am most familiar with, with the exception that (as I have already indicated) the throwing of dirt tends to be a regional thing. In some places, it is routinely done by the Funeral Director alone.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I have to admit that what Mudfrog describes is what I thought was universal for a burial. It's quite a surprise to hear that in other parts of the world this is done differently and that there are parts of this country where the mourners do not themselves cast the earth onto the coffin.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

I've done it both south and north-east. I'd be interested to learn where they don't.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

It was certainly common in Yorkshire. But in parts of central South England, I was surprised that it didn't happen, although the strewing of flowers was usual. I wonder if this is starting to replace the scattering of dirt, as a more "acceptable" action?

Posted by Teilhard (# 16342) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

The only funeral where we got to drop a handful or shovel of dirt on the casket in the hole was Jewish. I want a Jewish style burial - simple casket, participatory for any who want to participate. Lots of cemeteries seem opposed.
And no messing about with embalming fluid. I'll be dead. My body will either be burned to ash, or put in the ground to decay. It doesn't need preservatives.

Some state governments require embalming if the body is not either buried or cremated in a short time ...

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Wasn't there a lot of lobbying from the funeral business associations in the mid-C20 to get that sort of law passed? Long time since I've read Jessica Mitford, mind.

Posted by Teilhard (# 16342) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Wasn't there a lot of lobbying from the funeral business associations in the mid-C20 to get that sort of law passed? Long time since I've read Jessica Mitford, mind.

The American practice of "embalming" came into fashion during the War between The States, when thousands of soldiers died far from home, but the loved ones wanted their bodies returned home for burial …

A body upon death begins to decompose in a very short time, with attendant problems of odor, leaking fluids, and nasty bacteria …

Some morgues and funeral homes have sufficient refrigeration facilities to keep a FEW bodies without embalming … but in general, the public health rule calls for relatively quick disposal of remains, some how or other ...

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Mudfrog re the words. If it was a CofE funeral then they are the correct words for the committal even at the crematorium.
Fair enough. I don't go to many CofE services.
I do prefer ours though ('the elements').

There is a bit of a choice with the CofE funeral, when it comes to crem funerals, thus:

(from the CofE funeral service)
in a crematorium, if the Committal is to follow at the Burial of the Ashes

We have entrusted our brother/sister N to God's mercy,
and now, in preparation for burial,
we give his/her body to be cremated.
We look for the fullness of the resurrection
when Christ shall gather all his saints
to reign with him in glory for ever.
All
Amen.

(or)

in a crematorium, if the Committal is to take place then

We have entrusted our brother/sister N to God's mercy,
and we now commit his/her body to be cremated:
earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust:
in sure and certain hope of the resurrection to eternal life etc

Some ministers - not all perhaps - might even consult the next of kin as to which they'd prefer. There are other prayers of committal and commendation, too, which might be alternatively used for crem funerals.

The smoke from the chimney is understandably an upsetting thing, if it's so obvious. As other have said, Crems are under very tight rules about visible emissions, and are - or should be - very closely regulated. Certainly their neighbours are very vigilant about such things!

It would also be natural to think to oneself 'that's Uncle Fred' or 'there goes Auntie Jean'. But because of the length of time it actually takes to incinerate a body, it would normally, I believe, take a few days to complete the disposal of even one day's worth of funerals. So even if there hadn't been a funeral earlier that day, the likelihood of there being absolutely nothing left from the previous day or two to complete, would be slim, in my opinion. Not saying it's impossible, mind!

I'm intrigued by Belle Ringer's experience that few funerals she's known, concerning burials, involve people watching the lowering into the ground. Even burial of ashes incorporates this for the mourners, should they wish to bury, rather than scatter. And graveside burials are surely almost completely redundant as a pastoral or logical exercise without the lowering? I still miss the West Cork burials where all the young men - and the occasional woman - grab the spade and get stuck in.

The lowering is a powerful and cathartic moment for many. And I'd say, it's hard to make sense of the 'earth to earth' liturgy, in the context of being in a graveyard, without it.

Mind you, graveside traditions have changed so much since even I was a kid. When my granda was buried, only the men went to the graveside. But that hasn't been the case for several decades now. And, in fact, some people only ever attend the graveside committal ceremony, in preference to the church!

The only times I've been aware that we've all walked away, turning our backs on the coffin, just sitting there, were with crem funerals, where the next of kin had requested the curtain to remain unclosed, and therefore to leave the coffin visible. It's never seemed 'right' to me - not that that matters, of course! - somehow unfinished, unclosed business, left undone. Another reason why lowering is, perhaps, so psychologically important - seeing the dirt go onto the coffin, the beginning of the end, as it were.

The most recent funeral I attended was as a member of our parish church choir, singing at the funeral of a much-loved, long-standing member of the church. This choir - along with other parish church choirs I've been part of - will try to 'put on a choir' for funerals of that nature - usually FOC. I think one church choir I belonged to did occasionally 'do' funerals, too, for money. But it nearly always went into choir funds.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

In the US, the law requires that if a body is to be moved from one state to another by public transportation, e.g. plane or train, the body must be embalmed.

Moo

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

My father died in December last year. I knew him as an agnostic, humanist, Muslim. He had asked for "a Christian burial". We had Requiem Mass, followed by the committal. It was very well attended by Catholics, Muslims and people of other or no faiths, and was as much of a comfort as a funeral ever can be.

Yes, it is difficult to reconcile the many different beliefs people have about what happens to us after this part of our life ends, and what that means for our mortal remains. But with love, and with God, anything is possible.

Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :

you know, it would never occur to me to be upset by seeing smoke after a cremation service for a loved one. I would have expected it (I'd be surprised by the timing, and perhaps assume it was the preceeding person, assuming I had the emotional strength to think about it at all). Of course, reading that someone WAS upset, I woudln't presume to say that person shoudln't have been (they have to right to be upset if that's how they feel), just that I personally wouldn't react that way, or even THINK that someone would react that way. I guess for me cremation=burning=smoke. Of course, in my religious tradition cremation is frowned upon anyway, but my sister was cremated none the less (following the usual funeral services except the graveside service). I wasn't at the crematorium and didn't give it much thought. frankly, didn't occur to me to go there. I suppose once she was loaded into the back of the hearse, and I knew there was not going to be a graveside service, I kind of assumed that was the end.. I didn't even think that attending the actual cremation was an option... so my views are obviously very un-informed.

As far as the questions in the OP, my experience has been separate sections within a cemetery (or a separate cemetery) for various religious groups. My father, however, is burred in a military cemetery, where the the order of who is burred where and next to whom is based purely on the order they come in (spouses burred one on top of the other, so the grave side is determined by the spouse that passed away first). This is a relatively new cemetary. anyhow, the priest did have to let them know that he had to bless the gravesite (since it wasn't a desegnated Orthdox site), and they seemed surprised by that, which I thought odd, since surely other faiths also require "consecrated ground"? anyhow, the request was granted.

As far as "extreme" requests.. I suppose it would depend upon how extreme. I'd want to carry out the wishes of the deceased to the extent reasonably possible.

Regarding death among people with very different practices, I would think that, just like in the above situation, the practices/wishes of the deceased should be complied with as much as possible. I mean, if someone died here whose normal practice is for funeral attendees to eat their body after, I'd say no. but if it's just a matter of which prayers are said.. well, why not?

Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
In the US, the law requires that if a body is to be moved from one state to another by public transportation, e.g. plane or train, the body must be embalmed.

Moo

Same in Canada. It made for very few cremations when the only crematorium was in the next province. A few years ago now a crematorium opened and it is quite a bit more common to have cremations.

Services are held in chapels of funeral homes and churches though, with the cremains often displayed in an urn or small wooden casket with a nice photo of the deceased.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
It would also be natural to think to oneself 'that's Uncle Fred' or 'there goes Auntie Jean'. But because of the length of time it actually takes to incinerate a body, it would normally, I believe, take a few days to complete the disposal of even one day's worth of funerals.

In Britain, cremation has to take place within 24 hours. However - and contrary to what most people seem to think - the casket with the deceased does not go straight from the chapel into the cremator

(I once saw a murder mystery on the TV, in which the police realised that a crucial piece of evidence had been placed inside the coffin. So they went zooming up the drive, charged into the chapel and cried out "Stop!" just as the coffin was disappearing through the doors. In real life, all they would have needed to do is ask the office staff to take them into the room where the coffin would go, prior to cremation. But that wouldn't have been so dramatic).

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
The only times I've been aware that we've all walked away, turning our backs on the coffin, just sitting there, were with crem funerals, where the next of kin had requested the curtain to remain unclosed, and therefore to leave the coffin visible. It's never seemed 'right' to me - not that that matters, of course! - somehow unfinished, unclosed business, left undone.

My feeling, too - though I know that others can't stand those curtains!

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Re:lowering the coffin. The practice here is that 8 mourners are chosen to "take a cord" The funeral director tells them which number they are, and sometimes hands out numbered cards. At the graveside the undertaker calls out "no.1" and no.1. steps forward and so on. It's an honour to be asked to take a cord.

It used to be the custom that only men "took a cord" but that's dying out. I took a cord at my grandfather's funeral, when I was 8 months pregnant. It was a comforting juxtaposition to be feeling my unborn child's kicks, whilst helping to lower my grandfather's coffin.

At our stillborn son's funeral, my husband and I lowered his coffin; obviously only two of us were needed for such a small coffin.

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