Ship of Fools: Great Big Cruise Liners

Thread: Great Big Cruise Liners Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Someone I know is going on another cruise this spring (he went on two last year), on P+O's latest and largest ship.....

......I dunno. I don't begrudge him and His Lovely Wife (that's how he usually refers to her in conversation!) a well-earned and carefree holiday, but I do wonder about the carbon footprint of these huge vessels, the possible exploitation of their crews - often, I understand, from Third World countries - and what must be a prodigal amount of food consumed (if what my acquaintance tells me is true).

Thoughts?

Ian J.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

If I were on a cruise, I'd probably start throwing random people overboard somewhere in the second afternoon.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

They keep the riff-raff all in one place. I have been to several tourist spots, where we were tootling around on bikes. The liners would disgorge passengers on to 6 (!) coaches, which would then drive up to some 'must see' attraction, spew out their cargoes who would then wander round for half an hour taking photos - then pour back onto the coaches and ships, leaving the place nice and quiet for us tootlers to enjoy again. Finding our own way everywhere with plenty of space and choice.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
If I were on a cruise, I'd probably start throwing random people overboard somewhere in the second afternoon.

At random? Couldn't you at least start with the annoying ones?

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Gwai: At random? Couldn't you at least start with the annoying ones?

I'm afraid that after spending such an amount of time locked up with a bunch of other people, in an environment completely geared towards consumption, everyone will be annoying to me. I love humanity, but in small doses.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

I can't really get my head around these things either, but judging by their proliferation they must be serving some sort of need. You can usually rely on seeing a couple of them tied up in Southampton whenever you drive past the docks. To me they just look like colossal floating apartment blocks, which I suppose is what they are.

Here's a pic. of P&O's latest, which I take it is what Bishop's Finger refers to. It's designed to carry 3647 passengers. The thing is, whenever you drop anchor off somewhere (don't expect to tie up in most places on a gin-palace of this size), you'll have about half a day onshore, with an almost continuous shuttle of the tender to get people there and back. Miss it and they won't wait - expect to make your own way to the next port of call.

I can well understand why cruising might appeal, but surely something smaller and less soul-less would be the way to go? But obviously not.

Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :

Apparently the British port most visited by cruise ships is...

Kirkwall!

Much as I love Orkney, I'm really not sure why, given the "If it's Tuesday it must be Belgium" itineraries.

Whilst I love the idea of visiting places by boat, the thought of doing it on a whistle-stop tour with thousands of other people is a big no no.

AG

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

They remind me of nothing else but the Most Destructive Party of All Time from the Hitch-hikers Guide to the Galaxy.

And I've seen The Posidon Adventure too many times, so no. Not my bag.

Posted by AngloCatholicGirl (# 16435) on :

In my home town the local port is trying to expand in the face of huge opposition. One of the things they were surprised to find out is that we did not consider the ability to dock these huge ships as a benefit. In order to accommodate the huge docks required, the port would need to expand into our historic residential district (which surely would be the reason people would come in the first place, so tearing down a quarter of it probably isn't a great idea)

Also, most of the passengers are whisked away on pre-paid tours organised by the cruise line and little if any of that money reaches the local community, not to mention that if 3000+ passengers did stay local, they would completely overwhelm our one main street.

We told the port at several town meetings that we were quite content with the smaller riverboat cruises that stop regularly and stay local.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Honest Ron - yes, it is indeed the Britannia on which my acquaintance is booked. Looks like an apartment block lying on its side.....

Ian J.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

I went on one years ago with some friends. On balance, I found it boring -- you quickly get tired of walking in and out of the various rooms on board.

However, I found some of the passengers interesting and, always one for an adventure, took advantage of that.

There was one old lady, obviously loaded with money, who was spending all of her dotage on board one ship or another. Good food, good medical care (she claimed), and much less stressful than keeping house.

Also a young man who was mentally challenged, probably also loaded with money, spending his otherwise uneventful life cruising the world. He was little more than an annoyance to the other passengers, however.

The most interesting encounter of all was a young boy in his early teens traveling with his grandmother. Bored to tears. Fortunately we had brought some games with us -- Mille Bornes and Waterworks, to be exact, and old Auntie Amanda was able to keep the young man delightfully entertained for the entire week on board. Never saw his grandmother.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

The nearest I have ever got to a cruise is the overnight ferry from Newcastle to the Hook of Holland. I was sicker than a very sick thing.

The idea of being trapped in a sort of hotel-cum-mall-cum-amusement arcade with a few thousand other people, with added nausea, strikes me as a working definition of Hell.

Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :

Like Honest Ron, I'm used to seeing Southampton dominated by these. They bring in £££ to the city's economy as a start/end point for cruises (tourist hotspot it is not) and the distinctive sound of the ship's horn at 'time to get going chaps' can be heard across the city centre.

They're not an eco conscious travel option - (an old, probably biased, but informative article) and the staffing does not point to high wage economies.

[ 26. February 2015, 15:51: Message edited by: Ferijen ]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Try being the second engineer on one, working and sleeping with the engines. My brother did this for a few years - good money (he saved enough to by a lovely farm) but awful work!

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

The Brazilian city where I live also receives a lot of cruises. A friend of mine works driving these people around.

Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
The idea of being trapped in a sort of hotel-cum-mall-cum-amusement arcade with a few thousand other people, with added nausea, strikes me as a working definition of Hell.

But think of the exciting people you could [Projectile]

on!

AG

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Interestingly, another friend of mine works on a cruise ship that goes to the Antartic. The first voyage, he was overwhelmed by those pristine, gigantic masses of ice. After the third voyage, he was already bored by that.

Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on :

Gosh. I guess it is simply awful for those poor people that they have a good time on cruises. Think of all the good that some money could have gone to for things that really matter in life.

Posted by Bran Stark (# 15252) on :

My primary objection to cruise ships is simply that they are incredibly ugly. The classic ocean liners of yesterday I can appreciate. But modern cruise ships look like they are going to capsize any moment.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

A friend of ours was one recently. He flew to Rome, cruised round to Barcelona with several stops on the way and flew back from Barcelona. The flights and 9 days accommodation all inclusive cost less than £1000. From the photographs his cabin looked nice, too, and less cramped than I'd have expected.

Price-wise, I thought it was very reasonable.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

I went on a Norwegian Cruise from Miami to the Bahamas last year. It was a three day, four night cruise. The ship my wife and I were on was the Norwegian Sky which is a moderate sized ship. While I cannot speak for the crews quarters speaking to a number of the crew members they had no complaints. My son in law who was with us is from the Philippines and he spoke quite freely with the Filipino crew members.

The first day we stopped at Freeport. You could tell Freeport was in an economic depression. There were a number of buildings that were completely abandoned. Yes, we got on a bus/coach that took us to a private beach, but the employees at the beach were Bahamian and well paid.

The second day we were in Nassau. We went on a Jeep cruise there. Our guide took us into some of the slums there. He actually grew up in them. We stopped at a local bar (the type most Westerners would not want to set foot in). Wife and I bought a local beer. It was so cold the beer actually froze when we opened the bottles.

When we ended our jeep tour we were about 1.5 kilometers from the ship and had to walk back through downtown Nassau Most of the people in our group went ahead but my Son in Law stayed with me and we walked back slowly. I asked him if Nassau was like Manila. He said very much so only in Nassau the traffic was moving. Manila is also much bigger than Nassau, I grant you.

Day three saw us at a private island owned by Norwegian Cruise Lines. While there my wife met a Palestinian family who was also on the cruise. She told them our son was teaching school in Ramallah. This pleased them a lot. The wife even gave my wife a scarf she had.

We were back in Miami the next day.

It was one of the most relaxing trips I have ever had. Not that expensive either. $300 per person for the cruise. The different excursions cost more, of course. NCL had other ways of trying to get money from you--like the on board Casino, an Art Auction, charging for the bar.

I am looking forward to another cruise, not this year, but next for sure.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
My primary objection to cruise ships is simply that they are incredibly ugly. The classic ocean liners of yesterday I can appreciate. But modern cruise ships look like they are going to capsize any moment.

The superstructure of the new Queen Mary looks like a multi-storey car park. Most car ferries look better.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I think my experience in my late teens probably put me off/spoiled me for a modern cruise: I went out to see a friend in the West Indies travelling on a fruit boat and it was out of this world. We were only 12 passengers, the food was fantastic, there was a small pool - absolute bliss.

The idea of a modern cruise liner doesn't appeal.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
L'organist: I went out to see a friend in the West Indies travelling on a fruit boat and it was out of this world. We were only 12 passengers, the food was fantastic, there was a small pool - absolute bliss.

A friend of mine worked in Brazil until his retirement. He went back to Europe on a cargo ship, it took him three weeks. I have always envied that.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Gosh. I guess it is simply awful for those poor people that they have a good time on cruises. Think of all the good that some money could have gone to for things that really matter in life.

You're missing the point Tortuf.

It's about the current generation of cruise liners that cram you in, don't have open decks and give you limited time to see places. Quite a few people take these ships and don't go ashore more than once or twice if at all. If they enjoy themselves then bravo. What is puzzling me is what these ships offer, that similarly priced vessels than can offer more authentically cruising (both seaboardand landward) experiences don't.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

My wife and I are going on a repositioning cruise from Ft. Lauderdale to Southampton in a few weeks. I have asked the cruise line what beers are available. Surely there will be other things to wonder about between now and then.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

I was brought up in South Africa. We emigrated by boat (much cheaper than flying) with the Union Castle Line. The outward voyage was on the Athelone Castle and homeward bound the Edinburgh Castle. We had 32 trunks all lined up on the quayside at Southampton with all our worldly goods.

Now they were proper ships [Big Grin]

Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
My wife and I are going on a repositioning cruise from Ft. Lauderdale to Southampton in a few weeks. I have asked the cruise line what beers are available. Surely there will be other things to wonder about between now and then.

Arranging a shipmeet? [Biased]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
If I were on a cruise, I'd probably start throwing random people overboard somewhere in the second afternoon.
At random? Couldn't you at least start with the annoying ones?

One must be systematic, of course, but you should always spare those you recognize from the previous night's compline.

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

A few years ago Mrs W and I found ourselves at the tip of South America and it seemed an opportunity not to be missed to join a small number of other 'adventurers' (as they called us) on a cruise around the Beagle Channel. We even got to climb Cape Horn! Not one of those monstrous ships, mind you.
But those huge beasts do visit a certain set of islands off the South American coast. They have to anchor a long way out of port and passengers get ferried in. Undoubtedly these ships bring huge amounts of cash to the islanders who take them off to see the penguins or the battle sites. And then, if they are lucky and the weather sets in bad, they get to put them up in local hotels, boarding houses, pubs and peat sheds for the night. That's not a joke (well, the peat sheds might be).

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

I have been on two cruises, one was OK because I was attending a conference on board which made the sea days interesting. The other was just boring, and noisy, there was no spot without jumpy music blaring (a marketing ploy to get people to buy the more expensive cabins with private balconies? or what they believe the customers want?)

But a friend can't get enough of it. She loves dressing up for dinner, being waited on with an attention unusual in restaurants, the extras you don't get in hotels unless paying a huge price like a mint on the bed, towels folded in fancy shapes (and fresh towels each day).

Elegant living with no decisions at a far cheaper price than the cost of staying in a nice hotel and eating three meals at nice restaurant (and have to decide where to go for each meal).

Friend goes to shore not to sightsee or try a sport but to window-shop jewelry and enjoy a leisurely lunch with lots of liquor and laughter.

People like different things. An inexpensive no decisions no work week of being served good and varied food and getting "instant" response to any request, can be relaxing.

Not my style but neither is sitting on the beach all day, which some people love and I find boring.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Oh boy, do I feel guilty?

Though I'm not going on one of those monstrosities. I think they look like the container ships with whitewash over the containers. I remember being towered over by some in Venice. I simply can't see the point.

I was inveigled onto a converted ferry with my sister's MIL, a respected travel writer, and a few hundred passengers touring the Eastern Mediterranean and looking at the relics of Byzantium with lectures from academics. (And given the size of the ship, I'm interested that the number of coaches was bout the same as reported above, with everyone going.) I'm afraid to say that after a while one narthex morphed into another, and I can't remember where all the mosaics were. (Except Gallia Placida's mausoleum.) It was possible to get onto the decks, where I spent a lot of time. I recall trying to see where Troy was while a bunch of Aussies were looking at the Gallipoli memorials.

In a couple of weeks I'm going on a slightly bigger ship to a spot just off the Faroes to see the solar eclipse, and up the coast of Norway to see the Aurora. Both of these depend on the state of the atmosphere, and I am expecting nothing. I booked with an eclipse chasing company, obviously needing to be on a boat - else it would be Svalbard- and this one does have decks.

It has turned out to be, instead of an eclipse trip with added ship, to be a cruise with added astronomy. Hence three formal evenings, and a theme evening (British - in a trip running from the 9th to the 24th you'd think another nationality would come to mind*). And other stuff. Though we do have Greenwich's Public Astronomer to talk to us. (It was going to be Chris Lintott from the "Sky at Night", but the BBC contract trumped the eclipse company, and he's going to be confined at Jodrell Bank, away from totality.)

The shore trips do look as if they are providing work for the poor oppressed Norwegians and Faroese. And I'm having to pay extra for the Aurora trips which were supposed to be included.

(I'm going to have a suffragette sash. And now I find out there were Leveller women in seagreen dresses, I'm taking one of those along as well(not period style, though).)

But I totally agree about the big things, monstrous.

And the single supplement on cruises amounts to a complete other person! Don't mind for the eclipse.

I'm going on another small one to Iceland later in the year, cunningly advertised as only 25% single supplement, but onky available in the less cheap cabins.

And that, since my passport is running out, will be that.

[ 26. February 2015, 20:39: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ferijen:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
My wife and I are going on a repositioning cruise from Ft. Lauderdale to Southampton in a few weeks. I have asked the cruise line what beers are available. Surely there will be other things to wonder about between now and then.
Arranging a shipmeet?

My wife was an exchange student in Southampton some 37-38 years ago so she is writing the family there to see about a brief visit when we port. We go to London the next day for the flight back to Charlotte NC. We would have liked to fly home to Asheville but it is over a $1,000 more. I guess flying uphill is more difficult than one might think.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

I've been on three cruises with various family members. However, always on the smaller, older style ships. I suppose the lines that cater mainly for 50s plus. I'm not attracted by the larger ones which have full-fledged kids' clubs and are all whistles and bells attractions and activities, like floating holiday resorts. The noise and bustle would drive me insane.

Those huge big ships seem to me like floating holiday resorts in themselves. And I'd much rather go to a holiday resort, if that was what I was after - especially one I could get away from! But the smaller, quieter ships - so far - I've loved. We did the tourist thing: went on all the excursions: rode camels in Lanzerote, tasted the local wine and cheese, had tantelizing and wonderful glimpses of beautiful historic places such as Rome, Pisa, Florence, Minorca, Sardinia, Oporto, Lisbon, Monaco, Nice. And enjoyed the on-board entertainment, to varying degrees.

And what a luxury, to have meals cooked for us, and brought to us - a fantastic menu to choose from, someone to make our beds for us and clean the bathroom, for a few days out of the year when usually we do it all ourselves; to sit quietly relaxing gazing out to sea, or over some amazing coastline. And all for the cost that some people think nothing of putting on their credit cards to book them a flight to the States to do Disney, or Orlando, or Universal Studios etc.

It is an indulgence. But one that seems entirely normal - and in fact rather less ostentatiouisly indulgent than many alternatives - within the context of an ordinary western lifestyle. A new car every few years is an unthinkable indulgence to me. A larger house. A foreign holiday every year. An updated wardrobe etc. Many people save long and hard for their five to ten days of cruise-ship enjoyment.

Of course, throughout all this, we were very conscious of our Philippino crew; what kind of lives did they lead, during their ten/eleven month tours? I'm still in occasional contact with the wine waiter from my first cruise taken back in the mid-2000s. And as slavish as the working life inevitably seems to us 'rich' westerners, the cruise ship jobs are fiercely competed for because relatively speaking they provide a decent, regular wage, and some employee security and protection not usually available in the home nation. The developed/developing nation divide is very plain on a cruise ship. But not necessarily in the most negative ways. It only takes a visit to any local British hop or strawberry field to be confronted with the most serious realities of exploitative labour practices for migrant workers.

But it's a good OP, in that so many of us now do do the cruise thing, so more of us must be being confronted with the global inequalities that have been going on since we fell out of our trees. And hopefully more of us are encouraged to be active in addressing these things.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I went out to see a friend in the West Indies travelling on a fruit boat and it was out of this world. We were only 12 passengers, the food was fantastic, there was a small pool - absolute bliss.

In 1969 my husband and I, along with our four-month-old baby, crossed the Atlantic on a freighter. The other passengers were much more interesting than the passengers I met on ordinary passenger ships. The one I remember best was an Australian nurse who was travelling around the world. When she got to a place where she wanted to stay for awhile, she applied for a work permit. Since there was a shortage of nurses just about everywhere, she always got her permit.

The one major drawback was that the baby hated every minute of the trip. Our cabin was right next to the dining room, and if I heard her crying, I would bring her to the dining room with me. I sat next to the chief engineer, who turned out to be very fond of babies. She spent many mealtimes in his arms.

Moo

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Bishops Finger: I do wonder about the carbon footprint of these huge vessels

In my opinion, the future of cruises should be sailing ships with solar-powerd auxiliary engines.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

Halifax, NS, has been touting for these ships for years now. Quite often, you will see, from my daughter's apartment on Victoria Road, well up the hill, and then 4 storeys up, that your horizon has been blocked by a large mass down by Pier 21. The prisoners - no, sorry, passengers - are given time off for good behaviour, to wander the streets, all with little badges on, and travelling in groups, while looking puzzled to see an actual city working around them. They don't look like they are enjoying it, probably because there is no minder to tell them to enjoy it.

Saint John, NB, is also trying for this trade, but it seems so ...I dunno...artificial that one wonders why they bother.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

I've read / heard / seen that the carbon footprint is horrendous, starting with the flushing of human sewage and ending with the carbon fuels consumed, with plenty to be concerned about between.

I wouldn't worry, though. If the increasing ferocity of the winters we're experiencing across swathes of the US now has any marine counterpart, these monsters won't be sailing long. And that's without taking into account the several disasters and near-disasters which have cut various cruises in US waters short -- fires, norovirus (or similar), plumbing breakdowns, etc.

Posted by luvanddaisies (# 5761) on :

Y'know how they're big and ugly? this one's bigger...

Saw the article on gCaptain and thought of this thread. What a monster - like a floating housing estate.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I've read / heard / seen that the carbon footprint is horrendous, starting with the flushing of human sewage and ending with the carbon fuels consumed, with plenty to be concerned about between.

I have no idea how to measure the carbon footprint. Human sewage happens wherever thee are humans, so is that issue specifically carbon or something else?

Carbon fuels for the ship, yes, but if people went to a hotel instead of a boat and drove to restaurants 3 times a day, that too would use carbon. Plus the staff in restaurant and hotel have to commute twice a day, burning carbon the ship avoids by non-commuting staff

When critiquing carbon consumed by ship, one must compare with carbon used by alternative vacations. (I am aware some say no one should travel for entertainment.)

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

Working from memory here, so someone can set any misremembering straight , but the problems with cruise ship waste is it's released en masse all at once, and in port. Sure, hotel guests also poop, but the hotel is already hooked up to local treatment facilities, and it's unlikely the guests all poop at once.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I've read / heard / seen that the carbon footprint is horrendous, starting with the flushing of human sewage and ending with the carbon fuels consumed, with plenty to be concerned about between.
I have no idea how to measure the carbon footprint. Human sewage happens wherever thee are humans, so is that issue specifically carbon or something else?

Carbon fuels for the ship, yes, but if people went to a hotel instead of a boat and drove to restaurants 3 times a day, that too would use carbon. Plus the staff in restaurant and hotel have to commute twice a day, burning carbon the ship avoids by non-commuting staff

When critiquing carbon consumed by ship, one must compare with carbon used by alternative vacations. (I am aware some say no one should travel for entertainment.)

Driving all those individual cars to/from the hotel certainly burns a lot of fossil fuels, but not as much as if you were to try to drive the hotel itself around from place to place, which is what you are doing when you're in a cruise ship.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

A short 16 minute video of what Norwegian Cruise is doing to mitigate its environmental impact:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK06CWer4IQ

What got me on the video is several shots of board meetings--and there were no women represented on the boards/

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
it's unlikely the guests all poop at once.

Would make for interesting on-board entertainment.

[Miss Amanda will get her commode.]

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

quote:
cliffdweller: Driving all those individual cars to/from the hotel certainly burns a lot of fossil fuels, but not as much as if you were to try to drive the hotel itself around from place to place, which is what you are doing when you're in a cruise ship.

The comparison is not a completely fair one because depending on the speed on the ship, ships are significantly more fuel-efficient than trucks or even trains when it comes to moving things around. However, I suspect cruise ships travel far enough to consume much more fuel than a hotel, including all the driving by its staff and guests.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
ships are significantly more fuel-efficient than trucks or even trains when it comes to moving things around.

True, but trucks and trains don't run for mere pleasure. Oh, wait, I guess some trains do.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:

quote:
cliffdweller: Driving all those individual cars to/from the hotel certainly burns a lot of fossil fuels, but not as much as if you were to try to drive the hotel itself around from place to place, which is what you are doing when you're in a cruise ship.
The comparison is not a completely fair one because depending on the speed on the ship, ships are significantly more fuel-efficient than trucks or even trains when it comes to moving things around.

Yeah.....but.....

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

I've never been on a cruise. I do have a friend who frequently takes positioning leg cruises as a cheap holiday. I have several other friends who take gay cruises. I used to work across the street on the sixth floor of a building that overlooked Seattle's Cruise Ship Dock. It was surreal, one day you'd have a nice view of the sound and the mountains, the next there would be a city block long 8 story building floating there.

I understand that modern cruises offer a lot of very good food. When you buy enough to overfeed 3,000 people you get great prices on high quality food. It also provides maid service of a quality most of us don't get at home. The downside is that legally these ships are a law unto themselves and not under the jurisdiction of the land they tie up to. There's also things like Norovirus floating around. I should probably try a cruise someday, although overeating is not something that I should set up as a vacation goal and being unable to escape a lot of people, especially on a gay cruise is like a vision of hell as a gay bar you can't escape. In places I've been where cruise ships tie up, there's an immediate drop in the nearby quality of life .

I do recommend David Foster Wallace's 1997 article A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Not against cruises. But with motion sickness and claustrophobia, I might have a hard time. And then there are the contagious diseases that spread. And the disasters and terrorists.

I wouldn't mind a short coastal cruise, though., like 3-4 days.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Actually on our cruse we did not have any problem with sea sickness or motion sickness. The ship was quite stable. They use a system of gyroscopes, stabilizes and bilge water systems. Only a small handful of people actually report any problem like that on cruise ships.

Ships do a lot to control disease outbreaks on board. You will find cruise personnel constantly cleaning. You will also find sanitizing stations throughout the ship.

Also cruise ships are not a law unto themselves. When they are in territorial waters they have to abide by the laws of the state or country they are in. For instance, Florida law did not allow for gambling in their territorial waters. It was not until the ship was twelve miles out that the casino was opened. Moreover, even in international waters they are still bound by the laws of the country they are registered in, and there are also certain international maritime laws they have to follow. Any crime on board has to be reported to the country where the ship is registered. Any crime on any ship regardless of nationality operating to or from the United States is reported to the US Coast Guard and FBI. I think other major countries have similar rules on ships operating out of their waters as well. In short Cruise Liners are heavily regulated.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

I've never been on a cruise though this honestly (not the ethical aspects, just the personal reports people have been giving) makes me less interested in going on one.

Part of me would love to go on a Disney cruise, but alas, the best stuff seems to be reserved for the kids but excluding adults. [Frown]

(Unlike Walt Disney World, where everyone can pretty much go do everything.)

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

When they're at sea, they may be under the laws of the country their registered in, but quite often that's a small country that makes money by registering ships with very little regulation.

As this article on ship registry shows, Bermuda has replaced Panama as the most popular country for a flag of convenience.

[ 27. February 2015, 05:39: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Carnival, which owns many other 'badges' of cruise lines, is the least environmentally friendly cruise line and its ships use the most out-dated sewage treatment processes. Overall, Carnival and two of its subsidiaries (Costa and P&O) get the worst scores.

Disney gets the best: its cruise ships have the most up-to-date sewage treatment plants AND its ships are equipped so they can link up to shore-based power supply, meaning they don't have to keep their engines running in-port.

They still look like apartment blocks on their sides...

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

I've never been on a cruise on a big ship, but we did a river one from Moscow to St Petersburg a few years ago. Interesting to see places, but really it was just a mixture of boring and gruelling. We did meet two wonderful Aussie couples, who were great fun to be with, though.

We did the standard cruise up the Nile, just to see the sites, but it was probably the least enjoyable bit of a great holiday, with private guides taking us around places (the great thing about hiring your own guide is that you can avoid going to the bazaar and can spend time in the museum looking at what you want to, not just mummies).

But the cruise I really loved was the one around the Galapagos in a small yacht, with just 9 passengers. Now, I would do that again in a heartbeat.

M.

PS editing to add, what's a 'positioning' cruise?

[ 27. February 2015, 07:30: Message edited by: M. ]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

I wondered that too. Google tells me it's one that takes you from A to B, not A to B to A.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Ships do a lot to control disease outbreaks on board. You will find cruise personnel constantly cleaning. You will also find sanitizing stations throughout the ship.

Except I've heard many news stories, over many years, about "mysterious" outbreaks of disease, on board, and they never seem to be handled very well.

And I have such a weak immune system that I get sick every time I go out.

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

I knew someone who worked on one for a couple of years. Her background was in childcare and she worked in the nursery.

AFAICT for most of the employees it’s hard work for not particularly good money, but I think she saw it as an excellent opportunity to see the world that she wouldn’t otherwise have had. She didn’t get that much time off, but it was usually enough to go ashore for a couple of hours and see somewhere interesting.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

I love these fabulous monstrosities of engineering. ( How DO they stay afloat?). I gape up in awe whenever they dock in our port. I think we had the Queen Mary II recently.

As for carbon footprints, would they be worse than planes?

As for employment, something is better than nothing in third world countries.

There is a rumour going around Australia ( my husband is a Geriatrician) that it is cheaper to live on cruise ships than in a nursing home.

[ 27. February 2015, 10:27: Message edited by: Evensong ]

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

As for carbon footprints, would they be worse than planes?

That was my initial reaction as well, but according to Ferijen's link earlier on the thread they are indeed worse than planes.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

As for carbon footprints, would they be worse than planes?
That was my initial reaction as well, but according to Ferijen's link earlier on the thread they are indeed worse than planes.

There is often the flight to the start of the cruise and back at the end of it too.

[ 27. February 2015, 11:34: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ferijen:
They're not an eco conscious travel option - (an old, probably biased, but informative article)

It's a ridiculous article. The purpose of a plane flight is travel from A to B. The purpose of a cruise is to do a whole bunch of things while travelling from A to B.

The person that flies from A to B then spends the next week in a hotel at B, performing various activities that are then left out of the equation because they did all the travelling bit first.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
it is cheaper to live on cruise ships than in a nursing home.

My god what desperation. The embers of hell seem infinitely more appealing.

And what of the vomiting-bug outbreaks that occasionally sweep through the cruise ships, leaving them knee-deep in norovirus and gastric contents as they limp into port with the crew cursing the engine for its lack of power.

Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
it is cheaper to live on cruise ships than in a nursing home.
My god what desperation. The embers of hell seem infinitely more appealing.

I've got friends who have spent a lot of time - from a fairly young age - on SAGA ships (SAGA being specifically for the over 50s). They've done two and a half round the world cruises, for example, and report on the 'people living in the ships as its cheaper than a nursing home' issue...

There's medical care on board. People coming into your cabin on at least a daily basis. Good food. A willing staff happy to help you and push your wheelchair around. Different views out of the window, different people to talk to. More chance of sunshine. A built in - if transitory - community.

If you've got the money, no one to visit you, and aren't in need of specialised medical care (there are ship's doctors on board for day to day type activity), its a more attractive option than some. Norovirus and flu do, after all, do the rounds of nursing homes too.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
it is cheaper to live on cruise ships than in a nursing home.
My god what desperation. The embers of hell seem infinitely more appealing.

And what of the vomiting-bug outbreaks that occasionally sweep through the cruise ships, leaving them knee-deep in norovirus and gastric contents as they limp into port with the crew cursing the engine for its lack of power.

Delicious food instead of boring industrial food, choice of live entertainment every evening instead of watching TV reruns, cheerful dinner companions, new sites every port instead of the same old garden every day. A pool, attentive staff. At half the price of an assisted living place.

If it's time to give up the house get rid of the stuff and move to a small room in a human warehouse, a ship can sure beat a ground-based cage.

There are ship problems occasionally, not often or people wouldn't return again and again. A virus outbreak is "news" because it's rare. Nursing homes get virus outbreaks, power losses, too.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

re: ship as assisted living facility:

My mom contracted and ultimately died from antibiotic-resistant MRSA infection (surely the face of evil) in a hospital, so yeah, cruise ships are probably no worse than any other facility caring for the elderly. otoh, I can't imagine a cruise ship providing the kind of care that my mom required-- especially re: something as highly communicable as MRSA. I imagine the staff would be great about pushing your wheelchair out on the lido deck for a breath of fresh air-- but changing your adult diapers, treating bedsores, dealing with potentially deadly infections-- I doubt they would be up for that. My guess is your life expectancy would be greatly reduced.

otoh, maybe that's OK. Having seen what extending your lifespan a year or two in a nursing home looks like, I wonder if it's worth the effort (even w/o the extraordinary expense). Maybe it's worth it to spend your last few years traveling with all the advantages noted earlier, even if it does mean you succumb to pneumonia or bronchitis or MRSA or whatever a year or so earlier than you would otherwise.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
imagine the staff would be great about pushing your wheelchair out on the lido deck for a breath of fresh air-- but changing your adult diapers, treating bedsores, dealing with potentially deadly infections-- I doubt they would be up for that.

She would travel with a private nurse, of course.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I intend to ask about the disposal of waste from cabin WPB's on boarding - there is stuff I might have to take responsibility for if I don't like what they are going to do.

In the Aegean, there were problems with the coolant water input for the air conditioning beign blocked by other people's plastic bags, which apparently drift along below the surface.

I am reaching the ship by train. The second cruise I'm taking will be reachable either using my bus pass, or by taxi.

When I was a child, family holidays were a mix of beaches and interesting visits to archaeological sites or other educational features - as a result I don't feel any attraction to holidays which are based entirely on time filling activities without any information content!

Small cruises with guided stops at interesting places I like - especially by comparison with a trip I took round Orkney and Shetland with every night in a different hotel. No need to keep packing and unpacking. I do tend to think of things like ships and, at the other end of things, horses, as means of getting from A to B rather than ends in themselves.

[ 27. February 2015, 17:43: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Coa Coa (# 15535) on :

I cruise! Well my husband dog and I sail to faraway ports and tour vineyards on bicycles eat in waterside restaurants. By faraway I mean across or the length of either Lake Ontario or Erie… The only person I puke on is my dog and if I don't like the hubbub of conversation I go sit on the bowsprit! [Biased]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Coa Coa: Well my husband dog and I sail to faraway ports and tour vineyards on bicycles eat in waterside restaurants. By faraway I mean across or the length of either Lake Ontario or Erie…

I'm a bit surprised that you can take a dog with you on a cruise. I can imagine that it would be more difficult on international cruises, because of quarantaine laws etc.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

Mr Bib and I went on a cruise a couple of years ago as he had always had a yen to do so - never again for either of us! We struck very bad weather so that the top deck was closed and the pool couldn't be used. I spent most of the time feeling violently ill and all the sea sickness cures were useless. There was a lack of anything interesting to do on the ship, there were childish games offerred and many people were stuck by the bar, permanently drunk. Many of the patrons travelled in large family and friends groups and were not interested in talking to anyone else. It hadn't occurred to us to take along all our relations- why would you take them with you on holiday? We spent a lot of money on the most miserable holiday we've ever had. Don't do it people. The Ship of Fools is the only ship for me.

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

I had the fun of going on a cruise as a kid with my grandmother, and it was a terrific holiday - I discovered Baked Alaska. [Yipee]

It was also before flags of convenience were universal, so the service staff were Italian and the mariners were British. It would look like the SS Minnow next to today's ships.

There's a documentary called Why Ships Sink which looks at the Titanic and Costa Concordia disasters, and cruise safety in general. The modern ships with a very high centre of gravity roll more slowly, and so are more comfortable for the passengers. However, they are less stable when turning and they can be blown sideways by wind since they have such a vast surface area, like a sail. I think the most important bit I gleaned from the show was that in an emergency, you can't necessarily count on the crew, since the overwhelming majority of them are service personnel.

Finally, a colleague told me that sexual assault is common on cruises, among both passengers and crew. It's easy to say that these things should be reported to the local authorities. But what next? It's not like the ship will stay in port while the police investigate. Can the accuser and accused be forced to disembark, and how long will they be stuck wherever they happen to be for legal formalities, depositions, etc? And if they leave, how does a foreign country get them back for the trial? And who pays for all this?

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
The Ship of Fools is the only ship for me.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
it is cheaper to live on cruise ships than in a nursing home.
My god what desperation. The embers of hell seem infinitely more appealing.

And what of the vomiting-bug outbreaks that occasionally sweep through the cruise ships, leaving them knee-deep in norovirus and gastric contents as they limp into port with the crew cursing the engine for its lack of power.
Delicious food instead of boring industrial food, choice of live entertainment every evening instead of watching TV reruns, cheerful dinner companions, new sites every port instead of the same old garden every day. A pool, attentive staff. At half the price of an assisted living place.

If it's time to give up the house get rid of the stuff and move to a small room in a human warehouse, a ship can sure beat a ground-based cage.

There are ship problems occasionally, not often or people wouldn't return again and again. A virus outbreak is "news" because it's rare. Nursing homes get virus outbreaks, power losses, too.

A family member worked on the entertainments crew for four years, on P&O, and said that retired folks selling up, in order to spend their final few years on board a ship like theirs was a regular, if not, frequent occurrence. Probably for the reasons stated by Belle Ringer. Consequently they have very good protocols about what happens when the permanent holiday-maker finally shuffles off the mortal coil. IOW, people live and die there, quite deliberately.

The novovirus thing is certainly a real 'thing'. But perhaps a bit more overplayed than otherwise. One of the cruises I went on directly followed a hyped-up novovirus scare, when the 'plague ship' sailed into Belfast and had to undergo a deep clean. You could see the smirks on the faces of the people who happily anticipated that we would spend our holiday time chucking up and confined to our cabins, when we told them which ship we were on.

As it was, we were delayed embarkation by a few hours, while the stricter cleansing regime - in addition to what was a fairly closely-observed cleanliness system anyway - was implemented. And I think for maybe two days we had our sugar, salt and pepper given to us in paper packets rather then left in open bowls/pots on the tables. Also, the number of cleansing stations increased, with the very smiley-faced crew members squirting our hands religiously with cleanser. The hand-cleaning was reduced a little, but only a little, to what is I believe, considered normal in such a close environment shared by so many people.

But after the gleeful hype of the 'plague ship' news, we were surprised to realise just a few days after sailing we'd already forgotten we were supposed to be on the cruise from hell, chucking our guts up. Some would-be holiday-makers in fact cancelled their places and refused to join the ship, losing their money and a very enjoyable holiday, as it turned out.

Undoubtedly it does happen. But our line, at any rate, were well able to control and respond.

I wish we had such quality cleansing control in our hospitals, where MRSA, C Difficile etc, are all a matter of commonplace now, sadly. Nothing against the domestics who are mainly very good at their jobs - just the general application of a regime that has too many holes in it.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
I think the most important bit I gleaned from the show was that in an emergency, you can't necessarily count on the crew, since the overwhelming majority of them are service personnel.

Exactly. They're people who make food, serve food, clean cabins, play instruments, etc. They all have an assignment in emergencies, but they're not like flight attendants on planes who have a lot more training in dealing with emergencies.

The other thing about emergencies that would scare the crap out of me is that on the really huge ships, there are several thousand passengers who could not be counted on to be sensible and do what the crew members were telling them to do, assuming that the crew members had their wits about them. The biggest cruise ship in the world holds over 6000 passengers.

quote:
Finally, a colleague told me that sexual assault is common on cruises, among both passengers and crew. It's easy to say that these things should be reported to the local authorities. But what next? It's not like the ship will stay in port while the police investigate. Can the accuser and accused be forced to disembark, and how long will they be stuck wherever they happen to be for legal formalities, depositions, etc? And if they leave, how does a foreign country get them back for the trial? And who pays for all this?

I have a friend who worked on cruise ships for more than 10 years (including on the big one in the link above), and he said that on Royal Caribbean ships, crew members attempting to fraternize with passengers are summarily fired, and that there are strict rules about being in passenger areas -- you have to dress appropriately, have your employee badge, etc. They seem to work pretty hard to protect passengers from having problems with employees because of the legal liability.

He also told me about a case in which a female employee woke up feeling groggy and found a male employee in her room -- she was probably roofied. She reported the incident, and higher-ups interrogated everyone in the vicinity, including my friend, and tested everyone's blood alcohol content. Employees are allowed to drink, but they're not supposed to get drunk. Since she was drunk and within her 90-day probationary period, she was fired. The guy in her room was moved to the crappiest shift at his job. My friend kept his job only because by the time they got around to testing him, he had sobered up.

His thoughts about most of the crew align with what was said upthread -- they take what we see as pretty shitty jobs for less than great pay because by their standards these are decent jobs that pay them well enough to send money home. It seems to me that cruise ships aren't any different from large swathes of our economies on land in that regard, except that it might be a bit more noticeable on ships.

Another thing I thought was interesting -- he said the crew don't get the great food served to passengers, at least not on Royal Caribbean. Food served to crew members is pure overhead, so the company tries to feed crew members as cheaply as possible. He said on the larger ships the food for the crew tended to be a bit better, but on the smaller ships, it was awful -- poor quality, badly cooked.

Posted by Coa Coa (# 15535) on :

@ LeRoc- our dog is my husbands ptsd service dog so is able to go anywhere with us but dogs with proof of shots are allowed off of boats and onto US or Canadian soil with no problem.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
He said on the larger ships the food for the crew tended to be a bit better, but on the smaller ships, it was awful -- poor quality, badly cooked.

I should be very sorry if this is true. During the 'meet the officers' evening, we were introduced not only to the chefs for the passengers, but also the crew chefs whose job it was to cook meals according to the various cultural norms and religious beliefs represented by the crew. But I don't think anyone was under any impression that they ate as well as passengers in terms of variety or quality of menu, or opportunities for feeding. Indeed, many of the passengers wouldn't've eaten as well back home than they did on board! But it should be a matter of pure justice that the crew should be fed properly.

I guess the biggest ship I've been on catered for 800 passengers and maybe 400 crew. I don't know how this rates amongst today's giants.

Ref the drinking thing amongst workers on the ships. Again, my young relative did receive a reprimand for getting drunk one evening - the next time he would've been fired. And as a matter of course, he and his colleagues underwent random drug-testing, when they came back from on-shore trips. He recalled a fellow-worker - after shore-leave in Morroco - who had to pack their bags and head off back to Blighty after indulging in the local weed.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

We really enjoyed the Norwegian cruise we were on. There was quite a mixture of people of all ages from various ethnic backgrounds. They had activities for kids and teens, but they certainly seemed more geared for the adults.

Unlike a number of other cruise liners where you are assigned certain eating times Norwegian has open dining. There were two buffets that were more or less open all hours. There were also two general dining areas where you did not need reservations. But there were also three specialty dining areas which took reservations and charged for their dinners. The buffets and general dining areas did not charge extra.

We did not go to the show on the first night or the last night, but did enjoy the shows on the second and third night. Same entertainers both nights, but they were good.

I had been worried that we were sailing during the month which has the highest number of hurricanes (probably why the tickets were so cheap). It is a risk you take when you book out six months in advance. However, we had calm sailing.

I also got a chance to speak briefly with the captain. We got in line to have our pictures taken with him. He greeted me and asked how we were doing. I said we were doing great, he laughed and then said, no how was the ship doing. I said so far the boat had not rocked much. He laughed again. Right after we had the pictures taken I asked him if the ship had previously been named Pride of Aloha. His eyes lighted up and he spoke with me about five more minutes about the ship's history; all the while about 100 people were waiting in line for their pictures. Of course, I thanked him for his time.

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

Out of curiosity, I looked up the Island Princess, sister ship of The Love Boat, now called Discovery. Sails with 698 passengers and 350 crew members. It looks teeny, but at least it still looks like a ship, not an floating apartment building. And an interesting factoid, the ship's flag and "home port" over her lifetime:

1971–1974: Oslo, Norway
1974–1999: London, UK (at the time of my childhood cruise)
1999–2002: Panama, Panama
2002–2014: Hamilton, Bermuda
2014–2014: Basseterre, Saint Kitts and Nevis

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

About the carbon issue - there is a global carbon issue, but how does it apply to the OP question? Is travel wrong unless "necessary" in which case how is "necessary" defined? Only travel for mercenary reasons? (Only travel for non-mercenary reasons?)

I'm burning carbon right now to have an environment at about 68 degrees instead of 32, 150 years ago people heated only room of the house. Is central heating deplorable or a enough life-improving to be a worthy tradeoff? (Or both simultaneously?)

I suspect I usually hear carbon comments when the activity is something commenter is not personally interested in, but I could be wrong.

Posted by marzipan (# 9442) on :

I've never been on a big cruise ship, but a few years ago I went as voyage crew with the Jubilee Sailing Trust on Lord Nelson and it was great fun! A couple of months later I helped with maintenance on their other ship the Tenacious while she was in Southampton and she was berthed next to a cruise ship so he looked really tiny.
I found that sea sickness was not so bad when we were sailing compared to under power since we were going with the wind and waves not against (though obviously a sailing ship rolls a fair bit)
If I was to go on a cruise again, I'd try to go on another tall ship as its great fun (you're crew so you have to work fairly hard but it is also a holiday plus they feed you really well)
ETA: I have an American friend who works on one of the Disney ships, I think she's an entertainer. She's done four contracts so far of a few months each and she loves it

[ 01. March 2015, 17:06: Message edited by: marzipan ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by marzipan:
I've never been on a big cruise ship, but a few years ago I went as voyage crew with the Jubilee Sailing Trust on Lord Nelson and it was great fun! A couple of months later I helped with maintenance on their other ship the Tenacious while she was in Southampton and she was berthed next to a cruise ship so he looked really tiny.
I found that sea sickness was not so bad when we were sailing compared to under power since we were going with the wind and waves not against (though obviously a sailing ship rolls a fair bit)
If I was to go on a cruise again, I'd try to go on another tall ship as its great fun (you're crew so you have to work fairly hard but it is also a holiday plus they feed you really well)
ETA: I have an American friend who works on one of the Disney ships, I think she's an entertainer. She's done four contracts so far of a few months each and she loves it

When in the Adriatic, I saw the five masted Royal Clipper, which is a cruise ship without the need to crew, as the sails are all operated by computer. So I was told. A five master.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
We really enjoyed the Norwegian cruise we were on. There was quite a mixture of people of all ages from various ethnic backgrounds. They had activities for kids and teens, but they certainly seemed more geared for the adults.

Unlike a number of other cruise liners where you are assigned certain eating times Norwegian has open dining. There were two buffets that were more or less open all hours. There were also two general dining areas where you did not need reservations. But there were also three specialty dining areas which took reservations and charged for their dinners. The buffets and general dining areas did not charge extra.

We did not go to the show on the first night or the last night, but did enjoy the shows on the second and third night. Same entertainers both nights, but they were good.

I had been worried that we were sailing during the month which has the highest number of hurricanes (probably why the tickets were so cheap). It is a risk you take when you book out six months in advance. However, we had calm sailing.

I also got a chance to speak briefly with the captain. We got in line to have our pictures taken with him. He greeted me and asked how we were doing. I said we were doing great, he laughed and then said, no how was the ship doing. I said so far the boat had not rocked much. He laughed again. Right after we had the pictures taken I asked him if the ship had previously been named Pride of Aloha. His eyes lighted up and he spoke with me about five more minutes about the ship's history; all the while about 100 people were waiting in line for their pictures. Of course, I thanked him for his time.

Pride of Aloha or Pride of America. NCL operates both, but Pride of America is the only US-flagged cruise ship in existence. Pride of Aloha used to be US-flagged, but was transferred.

Pride of America is the only cruise ship I would trust for labour standards (Cunard is now flagged in Bermuda) as it is under US labour law, and completely unionized with proper unions.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Pride of Aloha was to follow Pride of America, but a construction accident on Pride of America caused Pride of Aloha to be rushed into service first.

Originally she was under the American flag, but if a ship is under an American flag it is to have an American crew and she was understaffed which resulted in poor service. NCL had to set up a special training program in the United States to crew the ship. In 2008 she was withdrawn from service in Hawaii, renamed Norwegian Sky and was placed under the Bahamian flag.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Halifax, NS, has been touting for these ships for years now. Quite often, you will see, from my daughter's apartment on Victoria Road, well up the hill, and then 4 storeys up, that your horizon has been blocked by a large mass down by Pier 21. The prisoners - no, sorry, passengers - are given time off for good behaviour, to wander the streets, all with little badges on, and travelling in groups, while looking puzzled to see an actual city working around them. They don't look like they are enjoying it, probably because there is no minder to tell them to enjoy it.

Saint John, NB, is also trying for this trade, but it seems so ...I dunno...artificial that one wonders why they bother.

We also compete for cruise ships to come to port here in St. John's, NL, and many do. I think this characterization of them is a bit unfair based on what I've seen; many of them look to me like interested, often older travellers, who have seen quite a bit of the world and are interested to see more of it. However, their stop in town is so short that it's questionable how much they see. The biggest complaint about them around here is that we are told they are great for the local economy, but in fact they wander around downtown for a few hours and go back to the ship to eat, usually, so not much money gets spent in local restaurants. There's no advantage to the hotel trade, as they're sleeping on the ship, and apart from a few small souvenirs they're not likely to buy much in local shops. So the general feeling is that their value to the local economy is vastly overrated.

That said, I know of at least two local writers (one in Newfoundland and one in Cape Breton) who make a point of going to the harbour when cruise ships come in and setting up a little table or whatnot to sell their books. So, some local entrepreneurs are attempting to capitalize on the business!

Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :

My hsuband and I did our first cruise last year. it was a present from me to him for his 50th b-day. Cruising was never on my "must do" agenda, and definitely not myh prefered style of vacation, but I knew that he'd like it, and I was willing to try. overall I can say a few things. a) it's cheap. compared to a similar length vacation at an all inclusive hotel (which is what a cruise ship really is) it's very cheap. b) if you have kids with you, most cruise lines have excelent programs for kids and teens where you basically have free babysitting all day while you do whatever it is you do. c) you get to (potentially) see many different places, even if the little slice of those places you get to see is quite small. We spent a fair amount of time talking to some of the crew, specifically some of the musicians, who were from Russia (we are Russian, and my husband is a musician). They work darned hard, long hours, and when they aren't performing they also do other tasks on board, such as help with boarding passengers after a day in port. they get little time off, but they get paid quite well, which is why they do it. they work a season, and that pretty much pays for them to live comfortably the rest of the year. regarding dumping of poop, international law requires that they do it out at sea, not near port. they collect such things as hazardous waste and do leave that in port to be managed, but that is no different from the quantity generated by a similarly sized hotel.

It's never going to be my favorite way to travel. I prefer to get a lot closer to the places I visit, without 3 thousand other people there for the same few hours. but on the whole, it wasn't as bad as I feared. there was plenty to do on board, and ways to get away from the crowds if that's what you wanted. the ship design was clever that way, breaking up the public areas in such a way that people didn't have to move through the same spaces to get from one place to another.. so it didn't FEEL like that many people most of the time. I can definitely see why some people enjoy it. my husband LOVED it. me.. meh. not my thing but I'll do it again. as far as environmental impact, I believe that there are data which show cruising compared with various other types of recreation, and depending on what type of comparison you are making, it comes out roughly even. air travel is much worse overall, so if you are flying anywhere you are probably having a much more negative impact. of course, many people fly to get to whichever port they are cruising from, so there's that. and the amount of food consumed! oh my gosh, you could feed half of large third world country on just the stuff people take on their plate and then decide they don't like and throw away. the down side of "all you can eat".

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

The trouble with dumping sewage at sea is that it isn't going to be only sewage. People seem very reluctant to learn not to put synthetic wet wipes, cotton buds, sanitary and medical waste and so on down landbased loos, and it's bad enough there.

When I was at college at Clacton, beach walks could show a lot of stuff that probably arrived like that. We get amber from the Baltic washed up on our shores, so dumping in international waters in the North Sea isn't going to protect beaches from belladonna dressings, and all the other identifiable filth. The thought of it drifting around in the mess of plastic in the oceanic gyres isn't any better.

I am taking doggy bags (not the food sort) for the disposal of anything that shouldn't be put down the loo.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

A surprisingly large number of people seem to go missing - disappear without a trace - from cruise ships. While some would say that the risk of disappearing from a cruise ship is lower than that of disappearing from anywhere, I'd be interested to know whether the risk of disappearing from a cruise ship is greater than that of disappearing from another holiday.

Certainly, cruise lines don't do themselves any PR favours when they appear to be less than helpful to those trying to investigate disappearances.

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
and the amount of food consumed! oh my gosh, you could feed half of large third world country on just the stuff people take on their plate and then decide they don't like and throw away. the down side of "all you can eat".

Not wanting to start a pond war over such things but I noticed that a lot on the two US cruise ships I have been on. The British and German ships don't tend to tolerate that kind of thing, there is usually a disapproving granny to tut and tell you not to be so greedy. I wonder if it is because all-you-can-eat dining is still relatively rare over here compared to the USA?

The last cruise I went on recycled the previous day's meat into curry. We knew if it was lamb today it would be lamb curry tomorrow. A couple of Russian passengers were absolutely horrified by this in very vocal terms but I thought it was an eminently sensible policy.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
The last cruise I went on recycled the previous day's meat into curry.

Not by scraping diners' plates, I should hope. [Ultra confused]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

In his book "Sunset on the Clyde", Duncan Graham writes of the sandwich fillings he made for afternoon tea at the Inversnaid Hotel, Loch Lomond, c.1955:

"I processed through a hand-mincer all the congealed fried eggs and bacon left over from the kitchen, including those from the guests’ plate. The result was surprisingly attractive to look at, and simpering matrons in cloche hats from Kelvinside used to single them out for particular praise".

He does add that he doesn't think they do that these days - although he's still suspicious of "minced" fillings in sandwiches!

His "cruise liner" was the "Maid of the Loch" on which I managed a trip in 1976. (Do I see a "Paddle Steamers" tangent looming?)

[ 05. March 2015, 15:20: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Not by scraping diners' plates, I should hope.

No but I think that such suspicions were the source of the Russian's objections.

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

I have done several stints on cruise ships as a chaplain. Most of the world's seafarers are Catholics (Philippinos, Goans predominating). I have seen the passenger side of life, as well as that of the officers and crew. Indeed, I have dined with passengers, officers and crew in their various dining locations.

The crew are fed well - they don't eat what passengers eat as the crew mess usually offers culture specific meals.

The reason the new ships are so hideously ugly is passenger demand. On the old liners the accommodation was usually below deck, with dining and other common areas above deck. Soon after the QE2 was built she was refitted in order to have above deck suites for passengers - the most expensive cabins on the ship. But every passenger wants a sea view, and then every sea-view passenger wants a private balcony. So new ships have been designed in order to place most of the accommodation high up, with balconies, and the restaurants etc below the promenade deck. But that does make for seriously ugly ships.

As a chaplain I was in the cruise director's department, in the section known as G-ENTS (guest entertainers!) On most voyages we had to have an environmental induction session, which bored me no end. I really did not need to know how to handle all the different types of waste! Nevertheless, I learnt all about blackwater and greywater and the sorting of waste in the waste disposal department. It's all done by hand by crew members - that's their job on the ship. What can be recycled is recycled. There is a water treatment plant on board etc etc. On board ship was the first time I encountered the concept of safe disposal of batteries - yes, I am talking about many years ago now.

Life on board is what you make of it. Indeed, there are those who make the ship their destination and don't go ashore. Others are inclined to load onto coaches and do the day-tripping thing. But you are quite at liberty to do your own thing. For me, it depends on the port. When in Civitavecchia I jumped on a train for Rome, had lunch at a trattoria in the Borgo Pio then got the train back to the ship. In Barcelona I walked all the way to Sagrada Famiglia, not realising just how far it was from the harbour. In Lisbon I took a gang of crew members to the birthplace of St Anthony and celebrated Mass for them there. By contrast, in St Petersburg I was quite happy to join an excursion to the Hermitage and Winter Palace as that made more sense.

I have never felt trapped by the other passengers. There are often interesting people on board (I met the plastic surgeon who sewed John Wayne Bobbit's bits back together while I was on the QE2 - he came to Mass every day) There are so many diversions and venues on a ship that I was well able to find a quiet spot or a group activity as the mood took me. I was on the QE2 several times, Southampton-NY-Southampton. I loved the fact it was a crossing, entirely at sea, rather than port visits. The lectures were always very very good, as was the standard of entertainment. I trust the many passengers who came to Mass on board found the level of liturgy of a high standard too [Big Grin]

On the other hand I was once on a ship which was rather like Butlins at Sea, and I did find most of the passengers noisy and irksome - but that's me being a snob.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Triple Tiara: I have done several stints on cruise ships as a chaplain.

That's interesting, thank you for sharing.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

A surprising number of people disappear on a cruise? I think the average is around 15 to 20 people go overboard in a year. Not sure how many would be considered attempted suicide. About 20 million people cruise each year.

Just because one may go overboard does not mean it is will result in death. Half are usually rescued.

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

Huge cruise ships, like huge multi-storied retirement homes, give me the creeps. A cousin who several times went with her husband on cruises after he retired, showed us photos of themselves with the friends they made, sitting in the lounge in nice clothes looking prosperous, and I wondered whether one would find ‘kindred spirits’ in such an environment.

Fortunately I had the experience of travelling to the UK in 1958 on the NZ Shipping Company’s Ruahine, and back late the following year on the same ship. She was a one class passenger + cargo ship with 267 passengers, so all sorts mixed and had fun together; the only social distinction might have been between First Breakfast at 8 am (I found it hard enough to wait that long, though the fresh fruit in the cabin was a blessing) and Second Breakfast at 9 am. We made our own fun; great concerts were organised by a couple of seasoned travellers with some background, I think, in producing revue-type performances; our gifted honky-tonk pianist was the wife of an Auckland business mogul. I’d found a couple of friends from Uni on board and we explored together at Panama and Curacao.

There was a bishop on board so he naturally took on the church services, and as a Presbyterian who was roped in to play the piano I had the interesting task of learning to play Anglican chants.

Much of our time was taken up with competitive deck games, but I spent the return journey playing crib with a tough old journalist. In the end the score was something like 47-43 in my favour.

One arrived in Southampton with the sinking feeling that the moment one was off the ship one would have to pay for everything one did, and find a (teaching) job to live on – fortunately easy in those days.

GG

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
One arrived in Southampton with the sinking feeling that the moment one was off the ship one would have to pay for everything one did, and find a (teaching) job to live on – fortunately easy in those days.

Better than having a sinking feeling a few hours (or days) earlier ... [Devil]

But of course you were travelling from A to B rather than holidaying on board and ultimately going from A to A. I think that's a fundamental difference.

[ 06. March 2015, 08:57: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
On the other hand I was once on a ship which was rather like Butlins at Sea, and I did find most of the passengers noisy and irksome - but that's me being a snob.

And you (and I) would have felt exactly the same if we had mistakenly booked in at a hotel catering for the same market.

Yes, I sound snobbish too - can't be helped.

Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :

Baptist Trainfan - I've stayed at the Inversnaid Hotel! It was really nice - though I don't think they had afternoon tea while we were there. My gran did bimble off to the loo one evening, took a wrong turn and ended up in the kitchens, though.

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
One arrived in Southampton with the sinking feeling that the moment one was off the ship one would have to pay for everything one did, and find a (teaching) job to live on – fortunately easy in those days.
Better than having a sinking feeling a few hours (or days) earlier ...

But of course you were travelling from A to B rather than holidaying on board and ultimately going from A to A. I think that's a fundamental difference.

I think my point was that it felt like a holiday, being a time out from everyday life, with many of the elements of a holiday. You don't get that from a 26-hour jet trip.

GG

Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :

A million years ago, when I lived in Seattle (actually from 1990-2001), I did some temporary office work for a cruise ship company, "CruiseWest". They're still around, just under a different name. Anyway, they had small boats and did cool cruises to Alaska and parts of California. The boats were nice but hardly what one would consider a full-on cruise ship. I remember stuffing envelopes with CruiseWest's wine country itinerary brochures and looking at the prices of the Alaska cruises too. When my wife and I move back to the Seattle area this year (hopefully soon!), I thought I'd see what this company is doing these days. Maybe we could afford a cruise to Alaska. I'm not at all for huge ships with casinos and twenty five stages for dance troupes and concerts. Give me a small comfy room where I can lay my head after seeing whales and glaciers!

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eigon:
Baptist Trainfan - I've stayed at the Inversnaid Hotel! It was really nice - though I don't think they had afternoon tea while we were there.

I've only passed a couple of hours there, back in 1976. I was on a combined rail/boat/bus daytrip and had a couple of hours to kill between getting off the steamer and getting on the bus to Loch Katrine. I was a poor impecunious student and couldn't afford the hotel's set lunch, so I sat in the lounge and ate the sandwiches I'd brought with me!

The Loch Lomond steamer has long gone (although being slowly restored at Balloch); the Loch Katrine one is still going strong, on steam power, at the age of 115 years! I went on her two years ago and she was great - hardly a "great big cruise liner" though!

[ 07. March 2015, 07:48: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
Give me a small comfy room where I can lay my head after seeing whales and glaciers!

A number of years ago a woman from my church asked me if I would like to see pictures from her Alaskan cruise. I was thinking of pictures of whales, glaciers, eagles, other wildlife.

She had three professional pictures -- one of her and her husband, one of her and her husband with the Captain, one of a buffet with enough food to feed several small nations.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I've just come across an ad for a cruise from London (Harwich)* round the North Sea to Iceland, jam packed with academics and seminars on related subjects (but also neurosomething or other). Looks fascinating but very expensive. And they lay down the amount of gratuities. Now if you have to pay $11.50 p.d. to the cabin staff, I can't quite see how gratuitous it is.

*Also listed as Harwich** (London). Anyone not au fait with the east coast of the UK should bear in mind that Harwich is not only not London, it is not in, by or near London and requires a train ride.

** Before anyone else gets in on the act, it is adjacent to the time-warp town of Frinton, beset with by-laws to keep it pure for the retired clientele. Hence the phrase Harwich for the Continent, Frinton for the incontinent.

Pursuant to the photograph post, I have noticed that the ship I shall be embarking on on Monday has no library, but does have a photo gallery - I suspect the production of such photographs and the sale of same.

[ 07. March 2015, 16:44: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

The Fifth Mary:

Unfortunately, Cruise West went bankrupt in 2010. While no liner took them over, Un-Cruise Adventures purchased their website.

There are still many smaller cruise liners that ply the Alaskan waters. You do get closer to nature and have a more intimate experience with your fellow travelers.

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
Not wanting to start a pond war over such things but I noticed that a lot on the two US cruise ships I have been on. The British and German ships don't tend to tolerate that kind of thing, there is usually a disapproving granny to tut and tell you not to be so greedy. I wonder if it is because all-you-can-eat dining is still relatively rare over here compared to the USA?

Two cruises (Southampton start and finish), medium sized ship - we went with a couple of friends. Did our own thing during the day and swapped stories in the evenings.

Re food - we opted for freedom dining - no set times and different table-sharers every night. Superb food and excellent (non-servile) service. One couple we met said that they went on a UK ship cruise which ran from Florida to the Caribbean with 50% British passengers and 50% American. Insisted that the dining room was split into two separate sections from the second night as the Brits were content with the portion sizes.

For much the same daily price as a decent hotel I've been able to visit Venice (it rained) Dubrovnik, Kotor and Hvar and Northern Corsica (longer return trips anticipated) Corfu, and the French Riviera (Eze is brilliant). I've spent time in some magnificent gardens, Villa Lante, Gibraltar Botanic Gardens and the unbeatable (IMO) Huerto del Cura in Elche. Add to that wandering around Lisbon and Porto, being amazed by Pompeii and fascinated by La Sagrada Familia. Didn't expect to enjoy cruising but it works for me.

[code]

[ 07. March 2015, 21:18: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

A few hours from embarkation. Weather involves winds becoming cyclonic in target area. Yesterday, I was followed to the hotel by a gaggle of cackling women - fortunately, it turned out that they were coming off some other cruise rather than coming on mine.
I have a fixed dinner time in a fixed restaurant. 6.30. Bit early, maybe, but if we have eclipse based activities in the evening, OK. Don't know how the tables are going to be organised yet.

Posted by toadstrike (# 18244) on :

Hello to the virtual shipmates from the Boudicca cruise ship (Fred Olsen) heading eclipse-ward.

My wife wasn't too keen about coming inside the arctic circle but now wishes she'd come.

She wants me to book a later cruise (in warmer climes) for her to come on now. What a trial.

Food is great alas a year of bunny food awaits.

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

The secret is to buy a dinner suit with expanding trousers and a roomy jacket. You can remove the top button from your shirt and use a proper bow tie to hold it in some approximation of closed. Always "pack for fat".

Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on :

Be nice if they could share some of the excess food with the staff - 'specially the ones that do most of the menial stuff. Staff have their own cooking - it ain't great and neithers the pay.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0