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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is faith a gift from God?
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
There is a striking moment in the movie Angels and Demons where Tom Hanks is asked whether he believes in God. .
This is the transcript:
quote:
Camerlengo Patrick McKenna: Christianity's most sacred codices are in that archive. Given your recent entanglement with the church, there is a question I'd like to ask you first, here, in the office of His Holiness.
Camerlengo Patrick McKenna: . Do you believe in God, sir?
Robert Langdon: Father, I simply believe that religion...
Camerlengo Patrick McKenna: I did not ask if you believe what man says about God. I asked if you believe in God.
Robert Langdon: I'm an academic. My mind tells me I will never understand God.
Camerlengo Patrick McKenna: And your heart?
Robert Langdon: Tells me I'm not meant to. Faith is a gift that I have yet to receive.
Camerlengo Patrick McKenna: Be delicate with our treasures.
The noun definition of faith in the Greek is pistis and the commentary appears to agree with Tom Hanks (Langdon) - faith is a gift from God.
What does this mean and how is this gift mediated? Is a direct encounter (God speaks into the soul of someone) or is it as some Protestants believe that God is mediated via preaching?
Anyone know what the Catholic vehicle might be? Partaking of the sacraments? But you'd need baptism first then and what brings you to that point?
Or is it the opinion of others that faith comes from belonging to a community first and Grace is mediated that way?
If the gift of faith is not mediated directly by God but through others (via preaching or sacraments or community), where does that leave the person that lacks faith (trust) that have not received the gift from those other ways?
I don't see why God cannot speak directly to the soul of a person. Perhaps the only barrier is receptivity? But then I guess you have to ask what aids receptivity. That too is supposed to be a grace from God (contra Pelagius?).
Thorny issue. Curious about your thoughts.
[ 06. March 2015, 09:49: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
Hard to make a comment without referring to my hatred of Dan Brown.. but with considerable effort..
Faith seemed to be something prized by Jesus in the gospels, and yet at the same time something he rewarded in those who had very small amounts of it.
I don't see much evidence of him rewarding anyone with the 'gift of faith'.
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arse
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
'Faith' has two meanings. It can mean a belief that someone or something exists, or it can mean that someone or something is reliable.
If I say, "I have faith in you.", I am not saying I think you exist. If I didn't think that, I wouldn't be talking to you. It means that I believe you will do what I expect you to, whatever that is.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
'Faith' has two meanings. It can mean a belief that someone or something exists, or it can mean that someone or something is reliable.
If I say, "I have faith in you.", I am not saying I think you exist. If I didn't think that, I wouldn't be talking to you. It means that I believe you will do what I expect you to, whatever that is.
Moo
Aye, but the one meaning is dependent on the other. If I don't believe you exist, then I can't trust that you'll do anything.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
One thing I find interesting here in Latin America, is that faith itself is sometimes presented as a creative, relational, life-giving force. So, rather than faith being a gift of God, I often think that He Himself is present in faith.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
What does this mean and how is this gift mediated? Is a direct encounter (God speaks into the soul of someone) or is it as some Protestants believe that God is mediated via preaching?
Anyone know what the Catholic vehicle might be? Partaking of the sacraments? But you'd need baptism first then and what brings you to that point?
Or is it the opinion of others that faith comes from belonging to a community first and Grace is mediated that way?
If the gift of faith is not mediated directly by God but through others (via preaching or sacraments or community), where does that leave the person that lacks faith (trust) that have not received the gift from those other ways?
I don't see why God cannot speak directly to the soul of a person. Perhaps the only barrier is receptivity? But then I guess you have to ask what aids receptivity. That too is supposed to be a grace from God (contra Pelagius?).
Thorny issue. Curious about your thoughts.
All of the above methods, and more, are vehicles for God's gift of faith imv, something which is not a one-off event but an ongoing blessing that we receive as we live with Christ in our lives.
The first steps toward faith are ours. We must seek before we will find, knock before the door will be opened, open our minds and hearts and pray to Christ Jesus, ready to follow his lead and with a desire to know God. The means and timing of revelation is God's. As we open the gift and recognise it for what it is, the deposit of faith is embedded into our hearts, often with an extraordinary sense of peace.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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HCH
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# 14313
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Posted
I think the reference to faith as "a gift I have yet to receive" simply shows a misunderstanding of faith. Faith is a choice.
A cinematic illustration: in the third of the Indiana Jones films, Jones takes a "leap of faith" in a very literal sense. It is very much something he chooses to do.
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
We must seek before we will find, knock before the door will be opened, open our minds and hearts and pray to Christ Jesus
<sideissue> I love the way this verse is constantly misquoted. The passage is from Revelation and is directed at the church, not unbelievers. Anyway </sideissue>
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arse
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
I was quoting from the gospels, the words of Jesus as in Matt. 7:7.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
<crosspost, too slow in typing this up...>
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
We must seek before we will find, knock before the door will be opened, open our minds and hearts and pray to Christ Jesus
<sideissue> I love the way this verse is constantly misquoted. The passage is from Revelation and is directed at the church, not unbelievers. Anyway </sideissue>
I think you are mistaken...
quote:
Mt 7:6-10 (RSV-CE)
"Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you. "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him![
All this was spoken to the great crowds at the Sermon of the Mount (cf. Mt 4:25-5:1, 8:1). The parallel passage in Lk 11:9-10 is not (clearly) located among great crowds, but is in the gospels (not Revelation) and there is no indication that this saying is limited to the Church there. Rev 3:20-21, which is what I guess you have in mind, rather has Christ come knocking!
[ 06. March 2015, 18:05: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
I believe in Roman Catholicism, Lutheranism, and in conservative Reformed Christianity, at least, faith in God is indeed given through grace.
I am not sure about the Arminian tradition - I suspect it varies - nor about the Eastern Orthodox position.
Basically this is one of those places where the predestiantion / Pelagian controversies come up.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
The general understanding in Orthodoxy is that God is not a thing or precept to be proven, but a person with whom you can have a relationship.
Therefore, when we talk about having faith in God, we mean what you'd mean when you talked about having faith in your spouse, or in your best friend. We'd think it odd if you talked about wanting to have more faith in your spouse, if we learned that, by that, you meant that you wanted to be more thoroughly convinced of your spouse's existence. Faith in your spouse isn't a question of whether your spouse exists or not; it's a question of what kind of relationship you have with your spouse. And it's the same when you're talking about God.
Even the question, "Is faith a gift from God?" seems odd from this point of view. Faith isn't a thing you can have. It's not something that can be possessed or given. It's something that develops between people in the course of a relationship.
That's true of friends, and spouses, and God.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
I find myself moving toward the relationship concept of faith. However the first person to initiate that relationship is God.
Even those who would claim a person has to decide to believe in God will have to admit they would not be able to make that decision without hearing/experiencing the Word first.
As Luther said,
I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
CM, please stop posting in Purgatory in doggerel.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Basically this is one of those places where the predestiantion / Pelagian controversies come up.
I fear you are correct.
The question is whether the first step is ours or Gods. Can a person ask, seek and knock as Raptor eye says, make a choice as HCH says, or develop a relationship with God (as Josephine says) without God initiating the first step?
Gramps49 thinks not.
I was under the impression Pelagius says the first step can be and should be ours (human freedom) but apparently his idea (at least according to Augustine of Hippo's interpretation of Pelagius) was rejected by the council of Ephesus in 431.
Leaves us in a rather odd place for 2015 methinks. If the initiator is God directly ( or indirectly ), then God is either not initiating the relationship with lots of the western world or we (as the indirect mechanism) have failed in our responsibility or ability to do so.
Where does that leave us in 2015?
Perhaps we shouldn't worry about the secularisation of western society. Perhaps we should just be as faithful as we can in our little necks of the woods. Perhaps we should desperately try harder. But desperation isn't a great place to come from in sharing the peace of God which passes all understanding and it also seems to precludes the idea that God is already acting and can and does initiate alone.
I dunno. Tis weird.
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The Rhythm Methodist
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# 17064
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Posted
The story I heard would seem to indicate that faith is more of an imposition than a gift - in the sense that it cannot be refused or rejected. Further, that it imposed on randomly selected individuals, with no consideration given to their character, what they have done, what they will do....or even whether they would like to know God. Being "totally depraved", they couldn't make that choice anyway - and faith will be arbitrarily delivered to them, should they find themselves to be among the lucky contestants drawn out of the divine hat.
They will "persevere" in their relationship with God (if such it can be called) if only because they are incapable of doing otherwise. They can no more walk away from God, than those who aren't forced to believe can walk towards him.
All of those unluckier contestants will suffer eternal damnation - because they are sinners who do not have saving faith. God could have made the sacrifice of Christ effective for them as well, but that blessing is reserved for that small number of people who (for whatever reason) are "chosen". It's called "limited atonement". This irreversible, double-predestination - where the great majority of the human race will suffer unimaginably forever, is what I believe is known as a loving God exercising his "sovereign pleasure".
Some have unkindly suggested that this belief-system portrays God as a monster, with absolutely no right to claim to be loving. Personally, I disagree. It doesn't portray God at all....it only tells us some people don't think through their doctrine to its logical conclusions.
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Galilit
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# 16470
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Posted
I think almost everyone is born with some religious response. (Not absoutely everyone - some of my best friends, etc)
Just as almost everyone is born with some artistic or musical response.
You develope from there; more-so or less-so, with effort and focus or just drifting along.
That said some people are just born to it (art and music are easier to point to examples of this but I think it goes for religion too)
Personally for my own self/soul- I think religion must be in my brain-wiring and function. I always felt like that even as a little child before I knew anything about brains or biology let alone neuro-theology
[ 07. March 2015, 15:04: Message edited by: Galilit ]
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
Is there a diff between "faith" and "saving faith"? Like James (the apostle) says, demons have a faith in God that won't help them at the judgement.
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
Faith is not a possession that we can choose to exercise or use.
Nobody can choose to become a Christian.
It is all of grace - in Wesleyanism, prevenient grace - which enables a person to exercise faith.
Faith is a gift of grace.
Otherwise it would be a 'work', something I do to contribute to my salvation. We are 'saved by grace through faith, which is not of yourself, it is the gift of God, lest anyone should boast.'
If faith is not a gift but is 'ours' then we could boast that we had more than someone else, or despair that we were not as faith-ful as our neighbour.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Faith is not a possession that we can choose to exercise or use.
Nobody can choose to become a Christian.
It is all of grace - in Wesleyanism, prevenient grace - which enables a person to exercise faith.
Faith is a gift of grace.
Otherwise it would be a 'work', something I do to contribute to my salvation. We are 'saved by grace through faith, which is not of yourself, it is the gift of God, lest anyone should boast.'
If faith is not a gift but is 'ours' then we could boast that we had more than someone else, or despair that we were not as faith-ful as our neighbour.
Nobody can choose to become a Christian, but everyone can choose to follow Christ. Do they then become a Christian?
We might know some who seem to be more faithful than us, and some who have less faith than us, n'est pas? (Isn't that so?)
Yes, faith is a gift from God. Yes, God has given humankind gifts over time so that we have received the good news of Christ, and by our own free will we have responded to this good news. In that way, God's action in reaching out to us does come first. Many don't respond though, and yet they have been given the news too.
In this responsive sense, what we do contributes to our salvation. It is not a 'work' that gives us brownie points, however.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
We bring nothing whatever to our salvation.
"Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to thy cross I cling;
Naked, come to thee for dress,
Helpless, look to thee for grace..."
You cannot just choose to follow Christ, but you can choose to respond to grace.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
We disagree here, Mudfrog. I think that everyone can choose to follow Christ, and also to respond to grace. We bring nothing but our willingness. We give ourselves as we cling to the cross.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
One thing I find interesting here in Latin America, is that faith itself is sometimes presented as a creative, relational, life-giving force. So, rather than faith being a gift of God, I often think that He Himself is present in faith.
Yes - and one that it is possible to aspire to, but to do the real deal is not so easy - either it is present or it is not. My experience is that it's an onion. Some people seem naturally capable of dropping into it immediately and others not. Which is one thing that leads me to believe that we really do reincarnate and each of us is on a very personal journey and each is at a particular stage in our evolution back to being fully "connected to" God. I can honestly say that I intellectually believe that there is a God, but translating that intellectual position .... I have watched other people in this process, and I'm sure that Grace is part of it. We are predestined AND are capable of stepping outside and beyond that (or also falling at the hurdles) AND it is up to us to choose at certain critical junctures AND we can have a lot of help if we ask for it.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
Something that always bugs me is the Disneyfication of faith:
You just have to have faith and trust and a little bit of pixie dust and you can fly, you can fly, you can fly...!
When I hear people talk about having faith, or using their faith, it always seems to be a quality, an inner strength, a pick-yourself-up-dust-yourself-off-and-start-all-over-again kind of thing. Just believe in yourself. Have faith and everything will work out for the best. Look deep within you, we all have the strength and faith to go on...
Just believe!
But no one ever says have faith in God!
No one ever says, 'I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.'
It's because they don't know that faith is not possible in a heart that is 'dead in trespasses and sins'. Faith can no more be a decision of the unredeemed heart than walking out of his tomb was a decision that Lazarus made.
Faith comes when Christ says, 'Come out!'
It's the same with prayer.
I hate it when people talk about the power of prayer; How 'prayer changes things'.
No. There is the power of God. God changes things. Prayer is merely the God given gift, the God given invitation to 'present our requests to God.'
These things have no power in and of themselves.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
![[Smile]](smile.gif) What Mudfrog has just said.
[ 08. March 2015, 06:14: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Faith is a gift of grace.
Otherwise it would be a 'work', something I do to contribute to my salvation. We are 'saved by grace through faith, which is not of yourself, it is the gift of God, lest anyone should boast.'
So, God does the choosing?
We have no part except to respond?
If that is the case, what are God's criteria for who is chosen to be given this gift and who isn't?
[ 08. March 2015, 07:30: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Fascinating discussion; I was very taken with the Luther quote, about my own reason and strength being inadequate, to initiate faith. But as Evensong points out, this has startling consequences in relation to modern skepticism. Presumably, you could say that God is still initiating, but people are deaf and blind. Or that God is moving in other ways, which may be unwelcome news to some Christians.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
So is faith a gift from God, and then when faith disappears, God has taken it away. Deliberately??
My faith used to be strong and vibrant. Now, as I have got very much older, and far more scientifically knowledgeable about the cosmos, universe etc. my faith has disappeared apart from a tiny speck in the far distance.
Did God take it away? I certainly didn't throw it away.
Any answers?
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It's because they don't know that faith is not possible in a heart that is 'dead in trespasses and sins'.
Funny thing is, Pelagius would seem to agree. Apparently he taught human beings had a choice because of the slack moral standards amongst so many Christians.
quote:
Pelagianism, also called Pelagian Heresy, a 5th-century Christian heresy taught by Pelagius and his followers that stressed the essential goodness of human nature and the freedom of the human will. Pelagius was concerned about the slack moral standards among Christians, and he hoped to improve their conduct by his teachings. Rejecting the arguments of those who claimed that they sinned because of human weakness, he insisted that God made human beings free to choose between good and evil and that sin is a voluntary act committed by a person against God’s law
Brittanica
To say there is nothing WE can do to follow Christ seems to imply slack moral standards is fine with God. Hardly biblical.
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a theological scrapbook
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, I have given up being a Christian, although not an atheist. Have I engineered that, or am I following God's signposts?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Nicodemia and quetzl . Very tricky. If its all up to God, then it makes sense that it's God's fault we lose faith. There has to be some involvement on our part.
There is a quote I read from God in the Dark by Os Guiness that might perhaps provide one idea of an answer:
quote:
“Sometimes when I listen to people who say they have lost their faith, I am far less surprised than they expect. If their view of God is what they say, then it is only surprising that they did not reject it much earlier.
Other people have a concept of God so fundamentally false that it would be better for them to doubt than to remain devout. The more devout they are, the uglier their faith will become since it is based on a lie. Doubt in such a case is not only highly understandable, it is even a mark of spiritual and intellectual sensitivity to error, for their picture is not of God but an idol. ”
― Os Guinness, God in the Dark
Some people think the rise of Atheism is a good purge for such a reason. I think it's sad. But hey, maybe it's all part of the plan. Things do ebb and flow naturally after all.
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a theological scrapbook
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Simone Weil - atheism is the necessary purification of religion.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
I can't find the quote - it may be that Josephine can (if she is still looking in) - but I think St John Chrysostom made an observation about the dynamic relationship between the human will and the work of the Holy Spirit which I found helpful. Something along these lines (shorn of the Golden Tongue of course).
"When recognising the weakness of our own wills, we nevertheless seek to move away from temptation, then the Spirit of God is alongside immediately, strengthening the weakness of our wills."
Using the relationship metaphor again, parents help children to walk straight, to stand up straight, since when they start they cannot do those things very well, if at all, on their own. There is a mutual trust involved in that, which seems to me to speak to all sorts of faith and salvation issues. "May my will for ever be ever more Your own". It takes some travelling in the terrain of faith to recognise the significance of that "may".
Here's an excerpt from a Catholic prayer along these lines.
quote:
Place my weak heart in Your own Divine Heart, continually under Your protection and guidance, so that I may persevere in doing good and in fleeing evil until my last breath.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
According to the Wiki article, the early church father's believed in free will before Augustine. Fascinating!
quote:
Church Fathers on free will[edit]
All of the Church Fathers before Augustine taught that humans have the power of free will and the choice over good and evil.
Justin Martyr said that "every created being is so constituted as to be capable of vice and virtue. For he can do nothing praiseworthy, if he had not the power of turning either way".[18]
Theophilus (c.180) said, “If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.”[19]
Irenaeus said, “But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.”[19]
Clement of Alexandria (c.195) said, “We...have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.”[20]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
Thatks for the Quotations, Evensong - I seem to have ended up being a Pelagian!
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
According to the Wiki article, the early church father's believed in free will before Augustine. Fascinating!
quote:
Church Fathers on free will[edit]
All of the Church Fathers before Augustine taught that humans have the power of free will and the choice over good and evil.
Justin Martyr said that "every created being is so constituted as to be capable of vice and virtue. For he can do nothing praiseworthy, if he had not the power of turning either way".[18]
Theophilus (c.180) said, “If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.”[19]
Irenaeus said, “But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.”[19]
Clement of Alexandria (c.195) said, “We...have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.”[20]
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I just find Luther's words above more convincing; but I know that arguments about choice tend to run into the sand. My own sense is that I have little choice in what I believe; of course, I could act 'as if'. But then I tend to see the unconscious as very influential. 'We are ruled by unknown and ungovernable forces,' (somebody or other, Groddeck actually.)
[ 08. March 2015, 15:55: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
I think Luther's words are good. It is indeed the Holy Spirit that sanctifies and changes us. I once heard a faith analogy that I liked : "faith is a train that you choose to get on. Then it takes you on.". (or something like that - not a direct quote). This wouldn't work with the predestination argument however.
I think we do have a choice what we believe to an extent. It's what we surround ourselves with. It's what we attend to. It's what we make important. It's how we choose to discipline ourselves. Perhaps exercise is an analogy. We can choose to exercise because of the benefits it gives us.
As for the subconscious - now there's an interesting tangent! I think our subconscious is also filled with what we choose to fill it with to an extent. But one of the questions I have about the subconscious is what relation it has to the soul. Is there an overlap?. I reckon there must be.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I think Luther's words are good. It is indeed the Holy Spirit that sanctifies and changes us. I once heard a faith analogy that I liked : "faith is a train that you choose to get on. Then it takes you on.". (or something like that - not a direct quote). This wouldn't work with the predestination argument however.
I had no idea there were trains in 15th century Wittenburg. But I'm happy you discovered that the early Fathers weren't Calvinists. On our side of the Adriatic, of course, we've known that for nigh unto 2000 years.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I think Luther's words are good. It is indeed the Holy Spirit that sanctifies and changes us. I once heard a faith analogy that I liked : "faith is a train that you choose to get on. Then it takes you on.". (or something like that - not a direct quote). This wouldn't work with the predestination argument however.
Only if you think the faith that counts is ours.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I think Luther's words are good. It is indeed the Holy Spirit that sanctifies and changes us. I once heard a faith analogy that I liked : "faith is a train that you choose to get on. Then it takes you on.". (or something like that - not a direct quote). This wouldn't work with the predestination argument however.
I think we do have a choice what we believe to an extent. It's what we surround ourselves with. It's what we attend to. It's what we make important. It's how we choose to discipline ourselves. Perhaps exercise is an analogy. We can choose to exercise because of the benefits it gives us.
As for the subconscious - now there's an interesting tangent! I think our subconscious is also filled with what we choose to fill it with to an extent. But one of the questions I have about the subconscious is what relation it has to the soul. Is there an overlap?. I reckon there must be.
I had a Zen teacher, who used to say that you could get close to the palace of truth, but you can't get inside by your own efforts. This seems quite close to some Christian ideas. I think in Zen you would actually say that your efforts form an obstacle, which bars the way. One of the jokes was that it's time to stop trying - how hard can that be?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
Minor comment: I believe that before the invention of the railroad, the term "train" might have been used for a train of wagons, a caravan, a military procession, etc.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Salvation is like going up a ski slope on a rope tow. The rope pulls you up the hill, but you have to hang on.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I like that - we have to exercise faith, build up our faith, work out our salvation. Faith is an active thing and must be continued and obedient. It's not a passive thing but it is beyond us to originate.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
Joinining in with the mini Luther love in, I read today (totally by accident) that the jolly doc saw faith in three dimensions. There's notitia which is just recognising a proposition. Then comes assensus accepting the validity of the proposition, which takes us to what really makes a difference fiducia - active trust in whatever or whoever you are having faith in.
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
In classical Christian understanding, "faith" is:
(1) Knowledge (of God) …
(2) Assent (to God) …
(3) Trust (in God) …
"Faith"
isn't "blind";
it isn't about "the gaps";
it isn't "anti-science" or "against logic";
it isn't "contrary to, or lacking in, 'evidence'";
it isn't about what happens to "an atheist in a foxhole";
it isn't "ginned up" by force of will ...
[ 14. March 2015, 20:59: Message edited by: Teilhard ]
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
What I believe is this:
God gives the gift of grace, the ability to believe, to everyone. However, it's up to us to accept that gift. It's a parcel, wrapped up so that we can't see the gift inside. We have to take it on trust.
As for those who don't accept it - are they the ones who "listen and listen but don't hear"?
I believe that God keeps on offering the gift, right up to death, when maybe we are more in a position to accept it.
God's gift of grace and salvation is for everyone - otherwise Jesus's sacrifice was a pyrrhic victory, which really won't do for Almighty God.
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"...But I always want to know the things one shouldn’t do.”
“So as to do them?” asked her aunt.
“So as to choose,” said Isabel.
Henry James - The Portrait of A Lady
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Salvation is like going up a ski slope on a rope tow. The rope pulls you up the hill, but you have to hang on.
I thought the punchline there was going to be something like tearing up hundred dollar bills in a cold shower.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
but I know that arguments about choice tend to run into the sand. My own sense is that I have little choice in what I believe; of course, I could act 'as if'. But then I tend to see the unconscious as very influential. 'We are ruled by unknown and ungovernable forces,' (somebody or other, Groddeck actually.)
It is interesting that one can have exactly the same discussion about the illusion of free choice in a deterministic model of human behaviour from a completely materialist perspective. I think the heart of it is deciding what it means to be a conscious being. Is this process of thinking and choosing actually an illusion we have and in fact what we do is predetermined by genes and external environment? I have always wondered who it is that perceives this illusion if all it really is is an illusion.
One can on the other hand say "I think therefore I am", and I think that consciousness and free choice are implied by that statement.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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