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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ghosts, Fairies and Other Creatures from Folklore
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A Sojourner
Apprentice
# 17776
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Posted
Over on the Demons thread I was fascinated to read that a few of the members of the forum mentioned their belief in the restless dead. While I was not surprised to read about a belief in demons and angels (ordinary orthodox Christian position) belief in ghosts and other folklore-style creatures seemed to me a bit out of my comfort zone. (To put it mildly)
While I have come across Christians who believe in ghosts etc.they mostly tend to view them as demons. These Christians also tend to be the sort who see demons everywhere, Frank Peretti-style. I also know that some of the early Church Fathers held the same opinion when regarding the Roman Gods.
So my question to you is : Do you believe in ghosts (or other supernatural and phenomenon), why (if you wish to go into more detail) and also how do you reconcile this belief with your Christian beliefs (if you are a Christian).
Hopefully this might lead to some interesting discussion,
A. Sojourner
[ 14. March 2015, 09:55: Message edited by: A Sojourner ]
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I don't particularly believe in ghosts, due to the terror factor, and also because the belief often goes with a belief that people can get stuck and MUST stay around to sort things out. If they exist, may they move on toward the Light and be healed.
I don't have a problem with nature spirits, etc. I don't know if they exist; but I don't particularly seek them out, either. We've each got our places in Creation.
"All God's creatures got a place in the choir;
Some sing low, and some sing higher..."
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I think that some people can pick up a resonance from the past. It's not that ghosts exist in the here and now, but that some people can pick up some ongoing resonance from what happened previously.
I think that there are "thin places" including churches where centuries of prayer have created an ambience (ambience isn't quite the right word, but it's the best I can come up with.)
I think that one day this will be scientifically measurable.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
IIRC, there is a quite respectable and perhaps offically endorsed view within the CofE which says that there are or may be some people whose souls are restless after death, because they have been and are still suffering some distress. As such, clergy dealing with such cases (almost always specialists) should treat them with the same compassion as they would any other person in spiritual distress. That seems to me to be very wise and gentle.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Sojourner:
Over on the Demons thread I was fascinated to read that a few of the members of the forum mentioned their belief in the restless dead. While I was not surprised to read about a belief in demons and angels (ordinary orthodox Christian position) belief in ghosts and other folklore-style creatures seemed to me a bit out of my comfort zone. (To put it mildly)
While I have come across Christians who believe in ghosts etc.they mostly tend to view them as demons. These Christians also tend to be the sort who see demons everywhere, Frank Peretti-style. I also know that some of the early Church Fathers held the same opinion when regarding the Roman Gods.
So my question to you is : Do you believe in ghosts (or other supernatural and phenomenon), why (if you wish to go into more detail) and also how do you reconcile this belief with your Christian beliefs (if you are a Christian).
Hopefully this might lead to some interesting discussion,
A. Sojourner
I'm one of those on that thread, and I'm a boring straight-up Lutheran of the sixteenth century kind. I do believe demons exist (a form of ruined angel), but I think Frank Peretti is out of his gourd based on the one book of his I've read, and don't recommend sensationalizing demons in any way, shape, or form. Basically they're like cancer or sewage. Think about them if you have to, either because it's your job or because some horrid situation involving them has dropped into your personal life. Otherwise find something healthier to think about. Puppies, football, that sort of thing...
As for ghosts--
I do NOT think there are dead people who have the freedom to leave the place(s) of the dead and roam around among the living, doing whatever they want (e.g. haunting people or places). I think that kind of thing would require special permission from the Lord himself, and I can't see any reason why he would grant it in the case of hauntings etc.
So when there's a case of something that looks like a ghost, I figure there is either a natural explanation (up to and including human psychology) or else we have a case of something wicked jerking our chains--that is, a demon impersonating a human soul. I'd recommend a careful investigation starting with natural causes and above all, not placing any trust in communications from the alleged ghost. It's not like you can make a so-called ghost produce ID, after all.
And ghosts, hauntings, etc. are therefore another area people shouldn't make a hobby of, for safety reasons.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I don't particularly believe in ghosts à la dead folks who haven't moved on. I believe there must be some explanation for the rise of such beliefs in a variety of places and times, but I haven't done the requisite research (and really am not going to, so don't bother posting "google it you imbecile") to figure out what that might be. My mother had some strange experiences right after her mom died -- voices, doors slamming, etc. -- but I really have no opinion about what might have caused them. If experiences like that are even slightly prevalent, it isn't hard to see how a belief in ghosts could arise therefrom.
tl/dr: No, I don't believe in ghosts or fairies. But I think there is some reason people do, arising from shared experiences of some kind.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
The rising of Samuel in the OT may provide a potential Christian model for what we perceive to be "ghosts". This would hinge on the ancient Judeo-Christian belief that when we die we go not to heaven or hell but to sheol where we await the resurrection of the dead-- a belief that we affirm every time we recite the Nicene or Apostles Creed. Our single OT reference may suggest that it is possible thru some form of "witchcraft" to "raise" someone's spirit from the dead/ sheol, although it doesn't seem to be a very good idea (Samuel doesn't seem to be very pleased by the experience, and things don't end well for Saul). I don't see any evidence in the Bible or church tradition for these spirits sticking around for long periods of time, though. Again, from the very little bit we have to go on, it appears to be a relatively unpleasant experience for the dead person, not something they're anxious to prolong.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I do think that sometimes people and events can leave imprints in a place--e.g., homes, places of worship, "thin places" as someone mentioned. Even in places that are currently occupied--like entering a home where there's lots of tension.
Maybe time and space can sometimes get a bit jangled?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
IIRC, there is a quite respectable and perhaps offically endorsed view within the CofE which says that there are or may be some people whose souls are restless after death, because they have been and are still suffering some distress. As such, clergy dealing with such cases (almost always specialists) should treat them with the same compassion as they would any other person in spiritual distress. That seems to me to be very wise and gentle.
A clergyman I know did a talk on ghosts - from personal experience - in our works Christian Union. He felt that "ghosts" could be a sort of echo of what had gone on in the past and generally agreed with what Albertus has said. He also said that in his experience, he'd only come across 1, possibly 2, cases where he felt there was possession. He was often called in by the local council when tenants were experiencing nastiness in their homes. Our parish offers prayer in people's homes - one of my friends, a very perceptive lady, is one of the people involved in that. She says that sometimes, the disturbance is caused by the actions of the household or previous residents.
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655
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Posted
Might I also ask what people's views are on poltergeists?
When my grandmother was a child their house had regular unusual occurrences, clocks changing, things moving etc, but they eventually moved after the local midwife saw a coffin being carried out of the house one night, she called around the next day to offer her condolences as she knew the family but no one had died. While I would have thought the first being more poltergeist like, I'd have thought the later was more ghost like.
A church I used to worship at was very old and there were several people who had some odd experiences in one area of it.
So these things do lead me to believe in ghosts but I don't knows the what's or how's.
Posts: 773 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The rising of Samuel in the OT ...
The example is interesting but a bit problematic because we've no proof it's Samuel. The only one who sees him is the woman who describes him pretty generically (an old man in robes), having never seen him in life as far as we know, and Saul then leaps to conclusions. Would God really allow a medium to call up a dead prophet? Would the prophet be willing to come? is there a chance that someone/something else is impersonating Samuel? (That's the one I'd be worried about, myself)
Then if you look at the message, it's 100% gloom 'n' doom. Prophets do a pretty good line in that, of course, but it's normally leavened with something helpful and/or hopeful, even if it's just a call to repentance. This message is nothing of the sort--in fact, it appears to directly incite Saul's suicide.
That doesn't smell right to me.... ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The rising of Samuel in the OT ...
The example is interesting but a bit problematic because we've no proof it's Samuel. The only one who sees him is the woman who describes him pretty generically (an old man in robes), having never seen him in life as far as we know, and Saul then leaps to conclusions. Would God really allow a medium to call up a dead prophet? Would the prophet be willing to come? is there a chance that someone/something else is impersonating Samuel? (That's the one I'd be worried about, myself.
The text seems to not question the veracity of it being Samuel, which is good enough for me. But, yes, it could also be read as a demon, which would be another possible understanding of the phenomenon of ghosts (as noted above).
God seems to allow all sorts of things (genocide, idolatry, evil or all sorts) so the notion of God "allowing" it is not troubling for me. I would see it as just sort of "the way things work" in the in-between afterlife as we're awaiting the resurrection of the dead.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Then if you look at the message, it's 100% gloom 'n' doom. Prophets do a pretty good line in that, of course, but it's normally leavened with something helpful and/or hopeful, even if it's just a call to repentance. This message is nothing of the sort--in fact, it appears to directly incite Saul's suicide.
That's consistent with other prophets. Some include a call to repentance, but the closer you get to the exile, the more it's established as a foregone conclusion, and any plan B is off the table. That seems to be what's happening with Saul. But if (and I agree it is an "if") this one text is a model for the possibility of raising ("rousing" would probably be a better word-- this is clearly not a resurrection) spirits from the dead, it is clearly a cautionary tale-- again, Samuel doesn't seem to be happy about his "rousing", and things as you note definitely don't turn out well for Saul. It seems to me to be evidence of how far gone Saul was at this point, an act of desperation, trying to force God's hand-- and it backfires miserably.
Or not.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Sojourner:
So my question to you is : Do you believe in ghosts (or other supernatural and phenomenon)
Yes.
quote:
why (if you wish to go into more detail)
History, basic human understanding of the supernatural from time immemorial, some experience.
quote:
and also how do you reconcile this belief with your Christian beliefs (if you are a Christian).
I find no conflict with my Christian beliefs.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
As a side note, I don't think most ghosts which are involved in hauntings (and I mean the kind which appear to be actually conscious entities, not emotional impressions on a building which need not involve someone's soul still hanging around) seem to be happy about it--they don't seem to have made it to where they're supposed to go yet, so it's not so much that they've come back from the place of the dead, but that they haven't "let go" enough to get there in the first place.
Appearances of saints, of course, and visitations from the beloved dead whom one may presume to be with God, seem to be another thing altogether.
And of course beings which aren't and never were human, but aren't demons or angels--what could be called longaevi or yokai or fairies or nature-spirits or kami or the like (and Lord knows what categories they really have--we barely have a grasp on humans and angels and plants and animals, so there could be endless variations that we know little about) would be another thing entirely. At least in their case they're likely where they're supposed to be, unlike human ghosts who are supposed to move on.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I'm rather agnostic on the whole subject of spirits and such. I'd like to believe in them but I'm just not sure. In any case though, I don't see how a belief in them is in any way contraindicated by a belief in traditional Christianity. Why would they not be compatible with Christian belief? Certainly for many, many years, up until the time of the enlightenment and even later, many people believed in them while being staunchly Christian.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
they don't seem to have made it to where they're supposed to go yet, so it's not so much that they've come back from the place of the dead, but that they haven't "let go" enough to get there in the first place.
Yes.
My grandma first learned of her mother's death when her mother's "presence" visited her briefly to say goodbye. (The Mom was 1000 miles away.) That's not totally unusual. I've heard similar from a number of people. (People have to totally trust you to not laugh at them before they will share this kind of information.)
I did have an experience that changed my theology; I was manager of a building that had a room where the light came on almost every night after the building was closed down. I had the only key - no one was sneaking in playing a practical joke night after night for the whole year I'd been there! But electricians said there was no problem with the wiring.
So one day when I was in the building alone I went into that room, said "you are looking for light; the light you want is Jesus." I told the story, assured "him" of a warm loving welcome by Jesus. The creepy sense of presence left. The light never again turned on unnaturally.
I told no one what I had done. (I didn't want to be laughed at!) No one ever again complained that the room felt creepy.
My interpretation - I was taught any such thing was demons, but this experience made me think there really are "lost souls!" I had thought the phrase meant "lost" as in "unsaved, in hell." But maybe some people get confused, don't know where to go after death, lost in that sense, stuck for some reason? In which cases the hanging around (creating a creepy sense of presence and sometimes physical effects) is from confusion or ignorance, not intentionally choosing to mess with people.
Why would God allow some to be confused or stuck instead of taking them straight home? No idea. I know what I experienced, not the universal "why."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
(Slight tangent for resources.)
I don't have experience with hauntings, whatever they are. But as far telling them to "go towards the Light" (however you or they interpret that), it might be worth it to look at the book, "Sacred Space", by Denise Linn. She does all sorts of space clearing/enhancing, from feng shui to spirits and uncomfortable-feeling places. AFAIK, she's not Christian, but not anti-Christian either. She draws on many traditions; and IIRC there are some Christian ideas there. She seems very level-headed.
There's also (and please don't be put off by the title) "Sister Karol's Book Of Spells And Blessings", by Sr. Karol Jackowski. Basically, it's traditional, heavy-duty Christian prayers to deal with all sorts of situation, plus "spells"--practical things to do--which IMHO she thinks are basically the same as prayers. For those who are put off by "spells"--and I understand--they're all in a Christian context, and there's no calling on demons or anything. Comforting book; and the hardback edition is built like a very nice prayer book: good paper, gilded edges, ribbon markers.
FWIW, YMMV.
(End tangent.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I am a firm believer in the fairy folk; how could I not be in the land of the faeries? I'm told they live in very large, grand looking buildings and take all your money from you - steal your baby if they got a chance. When they have your money it's then they put their true witchery into operation. Apparently they set it somewhere and just leave to sitting there doing nothing; but it does something. By leaving it sitting, somehow it generates more monies and then they charge you for this - quarterly. If you upset the fairy folk I'm told they can do all manner of hexing on you; like steal all your monies, take your home, make your car and some possessions just up and disappear and even effect your health. I've seen it happen to other people, but I have never yet seen the actual fairy folk, but I have seen the nasty letters sent by those possessed by the faeries. I'm told that they drive around in cars with darkened windows, arrive to their buildings and leave them through special guarded entrances and even have special secret rooms where they hide out and refuse to come out. Despite never having seen them, I am sure the fairy folk are 100% real and also very powerful - possibly demonic.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Having twice encountered ghosts-- I refer to experiences shared by others at different times and compared -- I think that in one instance, she just liked being around where she was and didn't want to leave. In the other, they had been hanging around for some time, and it might have been a similar phenomenon.
My house-cleaning poet told me that, when she started cleaning for me about ten years ago, she saw a figure in my house on several occasions. I did not, but there was an unsettling feeling as I would go upstairs. However, after a while, he (she thought it was a man who looked a bit like the Duke of Windsor in his later years) went away, so perhaps he was just curious about who had moved in. A Toronto speech therapist I know said that she often saw ghosts while riding the streetcar but she was not too phased about it.
Perhaps for some of these entities, they should be moving on and there is a reason why they can't or don't. Perhaps for others, this is one of the ways in which afterlife gets manifested. Who knows?
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The text seems to not question the veracity of it being Samuel, which is good enough for me.
There is another reading of the text - it would appear that the Witch of Endor was actually surprised that it was Samuel himself who turned up - so one could read this to mean that normally, she didn't expect the spirits of the dead to rock up when she conducted her ceremonies.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
IIRC, there is a quite respectable and perhaps offically endorsed view within the CofE which says that there are or may be some people whose souls are restless after death, because they have been and are still suffering some distress. As such, clergy dealing with such cases (almost always specialists) should treat them with the same compassion as they would any other person in spiritual distress. That seems to me to be very wise and gentle.
In the CofE, there is a "Ministry of Deliverance", and each diocese has a team led by a deliverance minister who handles any matters that come to the clergy.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The text seems to not question the veracity of it being Samuel, which is good enough for me.
There is another reading of the text - it would appear that the Witch of Endor was actually surprised that it was Samuel himself who turned up - so one could read this to mean that normally, she didn't expect the spirits of the dead to rock up when she conducted her ceremonies.
Yes, which I think actually supports my (tentative) reading. This isn't something that happens every day. It's not something the witch has seen before, despite her chosen profession. Which suggests it's neither a trick nor a satanic delusion.
But again, I'm not dogmatically wedded to that view-- it's too idiosyncratic a text, with too few details/explanation to build an entire theology around. Just noodling around with ideas.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The text seems to not question the veracity of it being Samuel, which is good enough for me.
There is another reading of the text - it would appear that the Witch of Endor was actually surprised that it was Samuel himself who turned up - so one could read this to mean that normally, she didn't expect the spirits of the dead to rock up when she conducted her ceremonies.
I figured she wasn't used to having ANY visible result, yeah. Still, the fact that somebody/something turned up doesn't give us any real sense of its identity. I doubt the woman had ever met Samuel personally, after all--they didn't move in the same circles--and describing somebody by their clothes is a bit lame. But whatever.
On the prophets and "Plan B"--it's true that the closer they get to the exile the less any alternative is offered, but there are other ways to work hope and gospel into a generally bad message than that. what seems to take over at that point is a) an assurance that the exile WILL end at some point, and b) hope in the (described) Messiah. Which seems even more gospel-ly to me than preaching about a Plan B to avoid the exile.
But alleged Samuel's speech has absolutely NO gospel in it--you could almost say it was calculated to drive Saul to ultimate despair. And I have serious theological doubts about whether God would do any such thing.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
There is another reading of the text - it would appear that the Witch of Endor was actually surprised that it was Samuel himself who turned up - so one could read this to mean that normally, she didn't expect the spirits of the dead to rock up when she conducted her ceremonies.
Sounds like the movie "Ghost": the medium, in her day-to-day work, was consciously faking it--but it turned out she had a gift.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Having twice encountered ghosts-- I refer to experiences shared by others at different times and compared -- I think that in one instance, she just liked being around where she was and didn't want to leave. In the other, they had been hanging around for some time, and it might have been a similar phenomenon.
My house-cleaning poet told me that, when she started cleaning for me about ten years ago, she saw a figure in my house on several occasions. I did not, but there was an unsettling feeling as I would go upstairs. However, after a while, he (she thought it was a man who looked a bit like the Duke of Windsor in his later years) went away, so perhaps he was just curious about who had moved in. A Toronto speech therapist I know said that she often saw ghosts while riding the streetcar but she was not too phased about it.
Perhaps for some of these entities, they should be moving on and there is a reason why they can't or don't. Perhaps for others, this is one of the ways in which afterlife gets manifested. Who knows?
This is doubly classy. Not only do you have a house-cleaning poet, but the person haunting your house may have been, or at least could have been mistaken for, the late Duke of Windsor. Can anyone beat that combination? ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
There is another reading of the text - it would appear that the Witch of Endor was actually surprised that it was Samuel himself who turned up - so one could read this to mean that normally, she didn't expect the spirits of the dead to rock up when she conducted her ceremonies.
Sounds like the movie "Ghost": the medium, in her day-to-day work, was consciously faking it--but it turned out she had a gift.
I thought of that too!
I'm not sure I'd say "gift". I'd simply say God shows up sometimes in very unexpected places. Another example is the magi in Matt. 2-- essentially practicing a form of astrology, looking to the stars for divine truth-- something the Jews didn't do, and Christians have considered semi-idolatrous. So what does God do? Put the message of the birth of the Savior right there in the stars where they're looking.
God can be hilarious sometimes.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
There is another reading of the text - it would appear that the Witch of Endor was actually surprised that it was Samuel himself who turned up - so one could read this to mean that normally, she didn't expect the spirits of the dead to rock up when she conducted her ceremonies.
Sounds like the movie "Ghost": the medium, in her day-to-day work, was consciously faking it--but it turned out she had a gift.
I thought of that too!
I'm not sure I'd say "gift". I'd simply say God shows up sometimes in very unexpected places. Another example is the magi in Matt. 2-- essentially practicing a form of astrology, looking to the stars for divine truth-- something the Jews didn't do, and Christians have considered semi-idolatrous. So what does God do? Put the message of the birth of the Savior right there in the stars where they're looking.
God can be hilarious sometimes.
One of the many meanings of "God" is that "God" isn't required to follow the rules …
For just one shining example -- recall that "Ruth" -- the direct female ancestor of King David -- was a "Moabite" (!!!) ...
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I figured she wasn't used to having ANY visible result, yeah.
Yes, that is what I take to be the strongest possibility - though similarly I think it's a bit hard to make any kind of judgement based on that particular story
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Anyuta
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# 14692
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Posted
I don't know about Fairies, but I do kinda-sorta believe in spirits of the pre-Christian variety. meaning things like the Russian "domovoi", and this could perhaps apply to fairies as well. I believe that God created "all things visible AND INVISIBLE". That "invisible" includes things like Angels and Demons (or whatever one wants to call them), but also other entities which may exist, and which are neither "good" nor "evil" (any more than mundane creatures on earth are). I see no reason why Christianity requires me to reject such belief, as I am not worshiping such entities. If a domovoi (or fairy, or brownie, or dryad or.. whatever) exists, I don't believe it is "supernatural", just an aspect of nature which we can not (yet) explain.
I should clarify that I do NOT believe these things in the same way I believe in, say, bears. But I also don't dis-believe in them the way I disbelieve in, say, unicorns. I think there are things which exist, which are outside our current understanding of nature. among those things MAY be something which COULD perhaps be called by some a fairy by someone who has encountered it, but didn't really understand it (whatever IT is).
ghosts? well, why not? what's wrong with the idea? I mean in the Christain sense. Obviously there is potentially a lot wrong with it in the sense of it not being scientifically verified. I don't think it's a matter of a fully conscious remnant of a deceased person. but some sort of residual energy? I certainly DO believe that the "dead" are in some way able to interact with us living on rare occasions, that they are "alive in Christ" and can pray for us, and that we can pray for them, so I don't see why my Grandma can't in some minimal way influence things, if only to come give me some strength, or a warning. that's not quite what we mean by "ghost", but it certainly has some elements of ghostlyness. and I believe that some sort of energy may stick around in places, not as a conscious entity able to physically attack living people, but as something a living person might sense (see, hear).
I once lived in a house which had a "ghost". This one I never saw the ghost myself, but I had heard about her from the owner of the house and my roommates and I always hoped to see her. I would like to believe that there was something there. do I really believe there was? eh. I don't know. More like not dis-believe.
My mother was once ( she believes) visited by her dead grandmother (in a dream), and was warned not to go on a trip that she and her friends had planned. It turned out that the train thy would have been on had they gone on the trip was in an accident, and had they gone, they likely would have been killed or injured. so she firmly believes it was indeed her grandmother. My mom is generally about the most pragmatic, non-fanciful woman you can imagine, not generally prone to imagining things that aren't "real".
Bottom line, I accept the possibility that there are things out there which we might refer to as ghosts or fairies, for which there is a valid (non supernatural) explanation, but which appear to be supernatural to us because we don't (yet) understand them.
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Having twice encountered ghosts-- I refer to experiences shared by others at different times and compared -- I think that in one instance, she just liked being around where she was and didn't want to leave. In the other, they had been hanging around for some time, and it might have been a similar phenomenon.
My house-cleaning poet told me that, when she started cleaning for me about ten years ago, she saw a figure in my house on several occasions. I did not, but there was an unsettling feeling as I would go upstairs. However, after a while, he (she thought it was a man who looked a bit like the Duke of Windsor in his later years) went away, so perhaps he was just curious about who had moved in. A Toronto speech therapist I know said that she often saw ghosts while riding the streetcar but she was not too phased about it.
Perhaps for some of these entities, they should be moving on and there is a reason why they can't or don't. Perhaps for others, this is one of the ways in which afterlife gets manifested. Who knows?
This is doubly classy. Not only do you have a house-cleaning poet, but the person haunting your house may have been, or at least could have been mistaken for, the late Duke of Windsor. Can anyone beat that combination?
Having researched my little 1916 artisan's dwelling, I suspect that it might have been the person who owned it from about 1920 to 1965 and who died there.
My other (and less-pleasant) ghost experience, which I do not have validated by others' experiences in the same way, was the sensation of real terror I felt in crossing the old Alexandra Bridge in Ottawa. Mentioning this to a Haitian taxi driver taking me across the bridge, he said that it was likely because of a young man who had been murdered there by gay-bashers in the late 1980s, who had beaten him and thrown him off the bridge at that point. "O yes," he told me, "all the drivers from my country know of this spirit."
Knowing the affection of shipmates for tangents, I should mention that he house-cleaning poet is because I am desperately domestically-challenged but cannot justify a cleaner other than that I am supporting the arts in a perverse way. There is a circle of cleaning poets in Ottawa whose sonnets and ghazals are funded through dusting and scrubbing. A jazz violinist I know is now part of a group of aboriginal women musicians who do the same and has told me of some graduate students who wear little French maid outfits as they do so (at a rate greatly multiple that of the minimum wage). Our modern economy.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
And to think that some people accuse Canada of being boring!
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itsarumdo
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# 18174
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Posted
A lot of the above sounds familiar - technically there are issues as to whether the presence was truly a soul that remains tied to a specific place on Earth for some reason, or a powerful emotionally charged thought form which "thinks" that it has an identity. I understand that there is not a clear demarcation between these two, because souls themselves are Thought forms. I have felt some of both of these - particularly strongly in two african/arabian countries I worked in which historically had particularly nasty slave regimes. And once in a wood in Wales - I believe the emotion felt was "Pan"-ic.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
It's interesting and somewhat peculiar that the focus with all these things usually falls on the negative aspects - there are also benevolent and loving spirits that are round us all the time and which fill nature. The ghostie brigade are only a small if disturbing proportion of all that, and - like we have been trained to do with most aspects of our lives - the emphasis and focus gravitates towards what is wrong rather than what is right. The human problem-solving urge is a very two-edged sword. Make that an Axe.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
the sensation of real terror I felt in crossing the old Alexandra Bridge in Ottawa. Mentioning this to a Haitian taxi driver taking me across the bridge, he said that it was likely because of a young man who had been murdered there by gay-bashers in the late 1980s, who had beaten him and thrown him off the bridge at that point. "O yes," he told me, "all the drivers from my country know of this spirit."
Haitian culture recognizes spirits. Modern American/Canadian culture discourages recognition of spirits. We usually dismiss any such encounter as "play of light" or "stress" etc.
But also, brains apparently can fail to "see" things that are right there. Tests are done to show this. dancing gorilla and Ball counting test are just two of many examples I've seen.
I've also read books (and had some personal experiences after a concussion) that the brain blocks out, fails to recognize and register, things it has been taught to ignore or taught don't exist, or doesn't want to see, even plainly visible physical world things. An easy example, we screen out the refrigerator noise, it's right there but we don't hear it unless specifically focusing attention on "is it running?"
Not surprising that different cultures have different amounts of recognizing the presence of a "spirit" when some cultures assume they are real and some dismiss any such idea as "unscientific" and therefore "not real."
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Fool
Apprentice
# 18359
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Posted
Apologies for not posting earlier. I thought I had set my settings to alert me of any posts on this thread. I didn't get an email so I assumed nobody had replied. Oh me of little faith!
I notice that a lot of people were discussing 'proof'. I quite deliberately didn't mention proof because if there is/was any I think some one would have mentioned it already so I thought it fair to lower the bar and mention 'shred of evidence'.
Its difficult sometimes to discuss these issues without being rude but I couldn't help feeling that the discussion of 'proof' above was a lot of clever folk waffling about the abstract with no grip on reality.
I mentioned the supernatuaral rather than gods etc because I wanted to be inclusive.
I am genuinely interested not looking to pick a fight but I'm consciously wanting to provoke robust debate.
I have the same urges to believe as everyone. I think it would be wonderful if there is a god and magic really existed. It would be lovely to think that when we die we will go to heaven and 'live' happily ever after. I'd also like to win the national lottery. Wishing it to be so isn't going to make it so.
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
I suppose it depends what one means by evidence. Al I offer is a few personal accounts, each of which have been verified independently by others, who had similar perceptions at varying times. I have omitted a number of instances which were entirely subjective, including two encounters in dreams, and several glimpsed perceptions. There are legal fora where separately witnessed accounts are considered to be persuasive, but I have scientist friends who would look for something quite different.
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Fool
Apprentice
# 18359
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Posted
Yes other people have imagined similar 'experiences' but there are an awful lot more who have had 'experience', imaginary or otherwise, which directly counters your experience - why do you discount what they say but believe those who reinforce your imagination?
The followers of all beliefs imagine things that support their belief but they can't all be right as they are contradictory. Muslims, millions of 'em, Hindus, Toasts all have imaginary 'evidence' just the same as yours and so do people who beleive in flying saucers...
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool:
Yes other people have imagined similar 'experiences' but there are an awful lot more who have had 'experience', imaginary or otherwise, which directly counters your experience - why do you discount what they say but believe those who reinforce your imagination?
The followers of all beliefs imagine things that support their belief but they can't all be right as they are contradictory. Muslims, millions of 'em, Hindus, Toasts all have imaginary 'evidence' just the same as yours and so do people who beleive in flying saucers...
I have carefully reviewed my posts and see nowhere that I have discounted others' perspectives. I don't see where you got that. I was careful in my characterization of experiences as being subjective and unsupported, or subjective and supported. Nor do I understand where my posts justify the links you outline in your second paragraph nor the use of scare quotes, nor the reference to evidence being imaginary.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I think Fool may have posted on the wrong thread. I think he was aiming to post on the "Introducing Me. There are no gods...." thread, or else he has read both threads and conflated them before replying on this one.
[ 16. March 2015, 17:26: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
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Fool
Apprentice
# 18359
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Posted
You have offered as evidence the experience of others which backs up your own experience but have ignored - discounted - evidence from others which contradicts your experience. There are a lot more of them.
I've used quote marks because I'm sorry but I don't accept your experience to be more than an active imagination, however real it appears to you.
I had a dream the other night. I dreamt that I'd arranged to have a friend assassinated and then changed my mind but it was too late and the hit went ahead. I woke up in a terrible state. I really believed I'd arranged to have a friend killed. I was about to wake my wife up when it occurred to me that the friend in question has actually been dead since 1995. He stepped in front of a train.
I don't know what stimulates your imagination but thats all it is.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
quote:
It's interesting and somewhat peculiar that the focus with all these things usually falls on the negative aspects.
My grandmother believed that the house she lived in in the early years of her marriage was haunted by the spirit of a benevolent old lady. When my aunt was a baby, my grandmother used to leave the ghost to look after her, whilst she went out to e.g. feed the pigs.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(I think Fool is posting on the wrong thread too; not sure where I should answer.)
Why all this talk about evidence, evidence, evidence? If there's one thing completely irrelevant to my faith, it's evidence.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool:
You have offered as evidence the experience of others which backs up your own experience but have ignored - discounted - evidence from others which contradicts your experience. There are a lot more of them.
I've used quote marks because I'm sorry but I don't accept your experience to be more than an active imagination, however real it appears to you.
I had a dream the other night. I dreamt that I'd arranged to have a friend assassinated and then changed my mind but it was too late and the hit went ahead. I woke up in a terrible state. I really believed I'd arranged to have a friend killed. I was about to wake my wife up when it occurred to me that the friend in question has actually been dead since 1995. He stepped in front of a train.
I don't know what stimulates your imagination but thats all it is.
Fool-- first, I am not aware of any other assessments or statements of others with respect to these experiences. To suggest I have discounted things of which I am not aware and have no knowledge is at best an inaccurate use of the word. If you are aware of any perceptions etc with respect to my experiences, you might have mentioned them. I made it quite clear that I distinguished these from dreams.
The use of scare quotes is inappropriate and insulting. They have little or no place in an honest attempt at a dialogue.
In my first post, I explored the use of the word evidence and its meaning in different contexts. I wonder if it is not best for you to revisit the question of definition of terms, otherwise an attempt at dialogue will be reduced to batting off fuzzy attacks on the integrity of posters.
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
I was about to respond to an observation about encountering possible spirits but find myself suddenly in the more abstract conversation about "proof" that has it's own two page thread!
A Fool and his thread are soon parted? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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St. Gwladys
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# 14504
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Posted
Whilst I believe that ghosts exist (see my previous post) I think that they are not an area which should be treated frivolously - I'm horrified that a member of one of our daughter churches regularly goes on ghost hunts with a group of her friends - they stay overnight in buildings which are reputedly haunted.
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
It's interesting and somewhat peculiar that the focus with all these things usually falls on the negative aspects - there are also benevolent and loving spirits that are round us all the time and which fill nature.
Probably a lot of encounters are interpreted as "negative" when the spirit was not intending anything negative. In the Bible angels often open with "don't be afraid!" Having "someone/something" suddenly appear in your secure space (the door is closed and locked for the night, or you face the only exit and the door didn't open but suddenly someone else is in the room) is scary. Sitting alone in your living room, a stranger suddenly appears - your first assumption is "thug, break-in, danger!" not "Looks like God has sent an angel to tell me good news." We assume negative (after all, the normal rules of our world were broken by the appearance!) even if they intend only good for us.
Or more often the spirit is probably "minding his own business" which has a side effect of doors closing or whatever; from the spirit's viewpoint maybe it's just him doing his thing and not about you at all.
Like the "presence" in the room (I mentioned upthread) that kept turning on the light night after night - staff felt the room was "creepy" which is a negative and yet if my current interpretation is right the poor lost soul was just looking for light, not setting out to scare people or prevent normal use of a room.
Negative dominates because *we* interpret the not-normal as negative.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
--Lamb Chopped said:
quote:
I'd recommend a careful investigation starting with natural causes and above all, not placing any trust in communications from the alleged ghost. It's not like you can make a so-called ghost produce ID, after all.
I feel that way about channeling spirits/entities. Too much like possession. As Hyacinth Bucket said about not using an ATM, "you'd never know who'd been before"!
--Chocoholic asked about poltergeists. There's a theory that poltergeist activity usually takes place where there's a pre-adolescent child--idea being that their sexual energy is waking up and has no place to go, yet, so it seeks other outlets.
--Belle Ringer: Cool story about the lit room.
--Anyuta: Interesting ideas.
--Re residual energy becoming sort of a person: Fr. Andrew Greeley played with this idea in one of his novels. (Don't remember the name; but it was a Chicago one, in an art gallery, maybe with Mike Casey.) IIRC, a girl had been abused over a long period of time, possibly at the gallery, and something weird and dangerous happened. Many years later, someone speculated that it was done by her fierce emotions, turned into sort of a gestalt person.
I just searched online, and it looks like it might be Angels of September.
--Re Augustine's scary bridge: I've heard of (British?) people doing blessings of places where there've been lots of car crashes, in order to clear the energy and keep more from happening. And people clear all sorts of other places. I wonder if someone could clear the dead young man's terror from the bridge? FWIW.
--Re Belle Ringer on not seeing things: In one of the H2G2 books, there's something called a "Somebody Else's Problem" field (SEP). Humans can blithely ignore things they don't want to see, like a space ship parked by a cricket field. I find it a useful and funny concept.
--Relevant TV show: Anyone familiar with "Dead Like Me"? Very weird and quirky and funny, and very good. Central character is a young woman who was killed by a falling toilet seat from a disintegrating space station. She winds up in a condition that is sort of purgatory: dead people who aren't ready to move on yet are still on Earth, but given new names and assignments, including helping to release people when they die. They also work through their issues, and gradually move on.
Took me a little while to get into it, but I came to love it.
Oh, and Mandy Patinkin has care of this particular group of dead people.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
quote:
It's interesting and somewhat peculiar that the focus with all these things usually falls on the negative aspects.
My grandmother believed that the house she lived in in the early years of her marriage was haunted by the spirit of a benevolent old lady. When my aunt was a baby, my grandmother used to leave the ghost to look after her, whilst she went out to e.g. feed the pigs.
Nice :-)
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
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